Author Topic: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity  (Read 224950 times)

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Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2450 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 21:34:09 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2451 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 21:38:12 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

Jesus never taught anything new that God has not included in the written record.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2452 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 22:12:08 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

Jesus never taught anything new that God has not included in the written record.

Who told you that?

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2453 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 22:19:05 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

Jesus never taught anything new that God has not included in the written record.

Who told you that?

God. That's why I posted it.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2454 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 22:21:48 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

Jesus never taught anything new that God has not included in the written record.

Who told you that?

God. That's why I posted it.

What did he say.  Did you hear his voice?

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2455 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 22:25:51 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

Jesus never taught anything new that God has not included in the written record.

Who told you that?

God. That's why I posted it.

What did he say.  Did you hear his voice?

Doesn't everyone who knows God hear Him?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2456 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 22:38:07 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then.  Scripture does not tell us what he taught, but we know that it is divinely inspired instruction.

Jesus never taught anything new that God has not included in the written record.

Who told you that?

God. That's why I posted it.

What did he say.  Did you hear his voice?

Doesn't everyone who knows God hear Him?

Many people claim to hear God.

How do we find the Spirit of truth?

1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2457 on: Tue Mar 08, 2011 - 22:42:50 »
Wait whoa was it like a literal vocalized expression?

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2458 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 11:17:56 »


What did Jesus teach the apostles during these 40 days?


.


Maybe that the RCC would go apostate and He'd need to re-establish His Church as the LDS in the Americas?  Maybe that Martin Luther would be assumed into Heaven as Chief among all saints?  Maybe that Mary would have 103 children - all naughty, red haired boys?  You have just as much evidence for that as you do that He taught them that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.



 ::shrug::


.


You get the point then. 

Oh, I do - it's entirely moot.   It "helps" your position EXACTLY as much as it helps ANY other idea (however absurd or disrespectful) - not at all.  So, interesting that the RCC and LDS keep bringing point up....(as did Catholics in this thread).  The evasions continue....

Back to the issue:  Where is the mandate:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER
?" 



 ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug::






.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2459 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 11:27:28 »
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote

Who told you that?



God. That's why I posted it.



What did he say.  Did you hear his voice?



Many people claim to hear God.



... one of the most compelling reasons to reject the RCC's claim that "the Holy Spirit ONLY speaks to ME (claims ME) - inerrantly anyway (God may mislead others), and the RCC is the ONLY one that inerrantly hears God and learns from Him and follows Him (claims ME).   Ergo, I claim that I alone am right if I say that I am."  Ah, the ego of it all!  And the irony of it all when the RCC and LDS condemn that when NONE on the planet do it as radically and exclusively as does the RCC (and early LDS)....  Jesus' "log/speck" think springs to mind....


Now, back to the issue:  Where is the mandate for views:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER?"



 ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug::





.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2460 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 12:18:59 »


... one of the most compelling reasons to reject the RCC's claim that "the Holy Spirit ONLY speaks to ME (claims ME) -

.

Josiah, you just can't stop lying about the Church.

You consistently make things up.

The Holy Spirit isn't through with you yet, though!

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2461 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 12:59:19 »


... one of the most compelling reasons to reject the RCC's claim that "the Holy Spirit ONLY speaks to ME (claims ME) -

.

Josiah, you just can't stop lying about the Church.

... and yet, the whole Catholic "defense" here is that the Holy Spirit told the RCC this little tidbit of bedroom information, the Holy Spirit only speaks to the RCC (inerrantly anyway) and the RCC is the only one that follows the RCC (infallibly anyway).   Your position that you've been defending since I 'met' you is the same one you rebuked our Protestant brother for suggesting (not as radically or individualisticly as the RCC insists, however).



Let's see if we can address the issue WITHOUT any claims of "The Holy Spirit speaks only to the RC denomination and the RC denomination alone infallibly learns, follows):  Provide the mandate for views:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!"  NO references to the Holy Spirit leading or guiding or teaching your denomination or how your denomination is the sole one to infallibly follow and learn, fulfilling the mandate.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2462 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 13:20:19 »


... one of the most compelling reasons to reject the RCC's claim that "the Holy Spirit ONLY speaks to ME (claims ME) -

.

Josiah, you just can't stop lying about the Church.

... and yet, the whole Catholic "defense" here is that the Holy Spirit told the RCC this little tidbit of bedroom information, the Holy Spirit only speaks to the RCC (inerrantly anyway) and the RCC is the only one that follows the RCC (infallibly anyway).   Your position that you've been defending since I 'met' you is the same one you rebuked our Protestant brother for suggesting (not as radically or individualisticly as the RCC insists, however).



Let's see if we can address the issue WITHOUT any claims of "The Holy Spirit speaks only to the RC denomination and the RC denomination alone infallibly learns, follows):  Provide the mandate for views:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!"  NO references to the Holy Spirit leading or guiding or teaching your denomination or how your denomination is the sole one to infallibly follow and learn, fulfilling the mandate.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.



That is your prove it. You can choose to accept it or reject it. God speaks through His ordained leadership. God spoke about His eartly Mother through His earthly leadership.

Listen to them not because they are talking but because God is talking through them.

I know you hate it. I know submission isn't your favorite virtue. I know you rather spend time searching and digging and pursuing Truth but it really is that simple.

I'm sorry God didn't make it harder so that learned individuals who study Scripture a little bit longercould claim a greater revelation of Truth over their brothers.

I'm sorry God gave it one time, forever and equally for all.


Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2463 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 13:46:31 »


... one of the most compelling reasons to reject the RCC's claim that "the Holy Spirit ONLY speaks to ME (claims ME) -

.

Josiah, you just can't stop lying about the Church.

... and yet, the whole Catholic "defense" here is that the Holy Spirit told the RCC this little tidbit of bedroom information, the Holy Spirit only speaks to the RCC (inerrantly anyway) and the RCC is the only one that follows the RCC (infallibly anyway).   Your position that you've been defending since I 'met' you is the same one you rebuked our Protestant brother for suggesting (not as radically or individualisticly as the RCC insists, however).



Let's see if we can address the issue WITHOUT any claims of "The Holy Spirit speaks only to the RC denomination and the RC denomination alone infallibly learns, follows):  Provide the mandate for views:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!"  NO references to the Holy Spirit leading or guiding or teaching your denomination or how your denomination is the sole one to infallibly follow and learn, fulfilling the mandate.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.



That is your prove it.


It's not my dogma.  It's YOURS.

49,998 denominations seem to be in the same "camp" with Mary, Joseph, Jesus, all 13-14 Apostles and everyone who lived in the First or Second Centuries - they are silent on how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born.   The 49,998 denominations have no position to prove (neither do Mary, Joseph, Jesus, the 13-14 Apostles or anyone in the First or Second Centuries in this regard).  TWO denominations have something to prove.  And you said what is mandated:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean your interpretation of Scripture or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!" 




Quote
God speaks through His ordained leadership. God spoke about His eartly Mother through His earthly leadership. Listen to them not because they are talking but because God is talking through them.

Your Catholic friend just insisted that it's a LIE to say that the Holy Spirit only speaks to and through The Catholic Church.  Which is it?

A Protestant was ridiculed and rebuked for suggesting that the Holy Spirit spoke to him.  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" was the remark.  "HOW - did you audably hear God?"  was part of an extensive ridicule.  But here you seem to be repeating the RCC's claim of it itself that the Holy Spirit speaks only to it (inerrantly anyway) and only it follows/learns (infallibly anyway).   Which is it?

And I wonder if all the diversions, evasions, circumventions, excuses and the "shell game" will end.   If truth matters to you, if honesty matters to you, if respect for Mary matters to you, if gossip matters to you, if it's true that views must meet the mandate YOU declared (in one of your more Catholic moments), "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of Scripture or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!" then do so.  You hold to a de fide dogma of two denominations that "MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!" 

We're waiting.....





.


Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2464 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 14:09:14 »
Quote
It's not my dogma.  It's YOURS.

And I have provided it's validation.

Quote
Your Catholic friend just insisted that it's a LIE to say that the Holy Spirit only speaks to and through The Catholic Church.  Which is it?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Whatever any catholic said that seemed to suggest your opinion, I believe you are definitely taking their words out of context. Would you please quote their entire response in which they said this? I mean their ENTIRE reponse and not an isolated piece of it.

Please and Thank You.





Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2465 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 14:21:01 »
Your Catholic friend just insisted that it's a LIE to say that the Holy Spirit only speaks to and through The Catholic Church.  Which is it?

 

First you lie, then you lie about your lie.

You do realize that lying is a sin against God, don't you?

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2466 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 14:41:26 »
Just one example...

As posted in this thread, in reference to the "PROVE IT" for the de fide dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever.


From Chestertonrules....


The apostles knew what Jesus said, and they told their followers.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would teach them things in the future.  He told them that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.

I believe Jesus.


Just checking on your Catholicism.....

1.  Did Jesus promise extend to ALL believers in ALL ages or to the leadership of The Catholic Church?   IF you answer the later, then you are affirming that the Holy Spirit speaks only to The Catholic Church.

2.  Does the Holy Spirit guide and teach inerrantly?   Does He do so equally to ALL denominations and/or ALL believers?  Or just to The Catholic Church and/or the leadership of that singular, specific denomination?

3.  Does the RCC and/or leadership thereof infallibly follow this leading and infallibly learn from the Spirit OR do ALL denominations and/or believers?



Then, perhaps we can get to the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!, the teaching of two denominations (no other having any position at all).

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2467 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 14:44:57 »
Just one example...

As posted in this thread, in reference to the "PROVE IT" for the de fide dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever.


From Chestertonrules....


The apostles knew what Jesus said, and they told their followers.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would teach them things in the future.  He told them that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.

I believe Jesus.


Just checking on your Catholicism.....

1.  Did Jesus promise extend to ALL believers in ALL ages or to the leadership of The Catholic Church?   IF you answer the later, then you are affirming that the Holy Spirit speaks only to The Catholic Church.

2.  Does the Holy Spirit guide and teach inerrantly?   Does He do so equally to ALL denominations and/or ALL believers?  Or just to The Catholic Church and/or the leadership of that singular, specific denomination?

3.  Does the RCC and/or leadership thereof infallibly follow this leading and infallibly learn from the Spirit OR do ALL denominations and/or believers?



Then, perhaps we can get to the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!, the teaching of two denominations (no other having any position at all).



I'm done with you for now.  When you are interested in sincere, honest debate I would be glad to address our differences.


Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2468 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 14:47:20 »
Just one example...

As posted in this thread, in reference to the "PROVE IT" for the de fide dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever.


From Chestertonrules....


The apostles knew what Jesus said, and they told their followers.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would teach them things in the future.  He told them that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.

I believe Jesus.


Just checking on your Catholicism.....

1.  Did Jesus promise extend to ALL believers in ALL ages or to the leadership of The Catholic Church?   IF you answer the later, then you are affirming that the Holy Spirit speaks only to The Catholic Church.

2.  Does the Holy Spirit guide and teach inerrantly?   Does He do so equally to ALL denominations and/or ALL believers?  Or just to The Catholic Church and/or the leadership of that singular, specific denomination?

3.  Does the RCC and/or leadership thereof infallibly follow this leading and infallibly learn from the Spirit OR do ALL denominations and/or believers?



Then, perhaps we can get to the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!, the teaching of two denominations (no other having any position at all).


I hope this wasn't directed at me because it has nothing to do with the claim you made about a catholic saying that it is a lie that the Holy Spirit speaks only through His leadership.

I said provide the entire post that such a catholic said that.



Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2469 on: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 14:49:04 »


Just one example...

As posted in this thread, in reference to the "PROVE IT" for the de fide dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever.


From Chestertonrules....



The apostles knew what Jesus said, and they told their followers.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would teach them things in the future.  He told them that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.

I believe Jesus.



Just checking on your Catholicism.....



1.  Did Jesus' promise extend to ALL believers in ALL ages or to ALL denominations or do you insist it was only to the leadership of The Catholic Church?   IF you answer the later, then you are affirming that the Holy Spirit speaks only to The Catholic Church.


2.  Does the Holy Spirit guide and teach equally ALL denominations and/or ALL believers?  Or just The Catholic Church and/or the leadership of that singular, specific denomination?  IF so, then not only does the Holy Spirit only teach/guide (inerrantly) the RCC but the RCC is the only one that learns/follows (infallibly).



3.  Does the RCC and/or leadership thereof infallibly follow this leading and infallibly learn from the Spirit OR do ALL denominations and/or believers?




Then, perhaps we can get to the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!, the teaching of two denominations (no other having any position at all).






I'm done with you for now.  



Ah, so you make flaming accusations and then won't answer questions about what you have been posting....   I'm not surprised.  It's understandable that you will refuse to answer the questions (I wouldn't either if I was in your shoes!) but, my friend, it's obvious.  




.
« Last Edit: Wed Mar 09, 2011 - 15:02:07 by Josiah »

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2470 on: Fri Mar 11, 2011 - 11:32:52 »


Just one example...

As posted in this thread, in reference to the "PROVE IT" for the de fide dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever.


From Chestertonrules....



The apostles knew what Jesus said, and they told their followers.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would teach them things in the future.  He told them that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.

I believe Jesus.



Just checking on your Catholicism.....



1.  Did Jesus' promise extend to ALL believers in ALL ages or to ALL denominations or do you insist it was only to the leadership of The Catholic Church?   IF you answer the later, then you are affirming that the Holy Spirit speaks only to The Catholic Church.


2.  Does the Holy Spirit guide and teach equally ALL denominations and/or ALL believers?  Or just The Catholic Church and/or the leadership of that singular, specific denomination?  IF so, then not only does the Holy Spirit only teach/guide (inerrantly) the RCC but the RCC is the only one that learns/follows (infallibly).



3.  Does the RCC and/or leadership thereof infallibly follow this leading and infallibly learn from the Spirit OR do ALL denominations and/or believers?




Then, perhaps we can get to the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!, the teaching of two denominations (no other having any position at all).






I'm done with you for now.  



Ah, so you make flaming accusations and then won't answer questions about what you have been posting....   I'm not surprised.  It's understandable that you will refuse to answer the questions (I wouldn't either if I was in your shoes!) but, my friend, it's obvious.  




.

You posted a lie about the Church.  Later, you posted a lie about what you posted.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2471 on: Fri Mar 11, 2011 - 20:45:36 »


Just one example...

As posted in this thread, in reference to the "PROVE IT" for the de fide dogma of Mary Had No Sex Ever.


From Chestertonrules....



The apostles knew what Jesus said, and they told their followers.

Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would teach them things in the future.  He told them that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth.

I believe Jesus.



Just checking on your Catholicism.....



1.  Did Jesus' promise extend to ALL believers in ALL ages or to ALL denominations or do you insist it was only to the leadership of The Catholic Church?   IF you answer the later, then you are affirming that the Holy Spirit speaks only to The Catholic Church.


2.  Does the Holy Spirit guide and teach equally ALL denominations and/or ALL believers?  Or just The Catholic Church and/or the leadership of that singular, specific denomination?  IF so, then not only does the Holy Spirit only teach/guide (inerrantly) the RCC but the RCC is the only one that learns/follows (infallibly).



3.  Does the RCC and/or leadership thereof infallibly follow this leading and infallibly learn from the Spirit OR do ALL denominations and/or believers?




Then, perhaps we can get to the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!, the teaching of two denominations (no other having any position at all).






I'm done with you for now.  



Ah, so you make flaming accusations and then won't answer questions about what you have been posting....   I'm not surprised.  It's understandable that you will refuse to answer the questions (I wouldn't either if I was in your shoes!) but, my friend, it's obvious.  




.

You posted a lie about the Church.  Later, you posted a lie about what you posted.


Anyone who reads what you quoted knows you are not correct...

But it's interesting, VERY interesting, that truth seems to matter to you when a non-Catholic voices anything at all.   Yup, everything and everyone is fully accountable, you keep insisting.  But there seems to be one enormous, unique, complete, absolute, complete, exception: whatever the RCC says - you just won't address the issue of Truth when it's your denomination voicing things.  Just repeating the RCC claim that when the RCC speaks, Jesus speaks and you do as the RCC mandates - just embrace it with quiet, docilic submission to it itself as unto God (CCC 87, etc.). 

SOME here think that truth matters.  Honestly matters.  Respect matters.  INCLUDING when the RCC  speaks, not with that singular, absolute, complete, total, unique, specific, particular exception.   So, we have two denominations shouting that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.  If truth matters, it should matter when the RCC shouts de fide dogma, too. IF it matters if I'm speaking truthfully, it should matter is the RCC is shouting de fide dogma correctly.   So, we're waiting:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a DOGMATIC FACT of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!" 



 ::whistle::



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Offline trifecta

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2472 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 16:40:23 »
  So, we have two denominations shouting that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER.


I don't know if Orthodoxy is the other church (RCC and EO are churches, not denominations) you are referring to here, but we believe in it, yet it is not a matter of high importance.  Or perhaps the other denomination is Lutherism.  Luther believed in it wholeheartedly, but today's Lutherans not so much.  You'll have explain this one to me.

Quote
So, we're waiting:  "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just your interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll do my best. 

Let's start will the more obvious one first.  Mary did not have other children.  Language changes with time.  Some want to apply 20th century usages to ancient language.  Big problems can ensue when this happens:  The term "brothers" and "sisters" in Hebrew usage at the time did not mean they had the same biological parents.  This is not surprising since ancient Israel was a far more communal society than today's post-Reformation individualistic culture.

We have Jesus in John turning the care of His mother to John the Apostle.  If Jesus
had these younger brothers and sisters, there would be no reason to do this--especially in that society. So, these younger siblings of Christ either all died by the time their older brother died or they didn't exist.

Even stronger is the historical argument.  When did this perpetual virginity argument   
begin?  The medieval times?  Reformation times?  No.  The first mention of it is in Origin's writings in 240.   St. Athanasius in 350 uses the term "ever-virgin Mary."  Now, if Mary had other children in 200 years there would be memory of them.  If multiple siblings of Jesus were running around, they would have gotten married and have kids that people in 240 knew in the flesh.  To make such an audacious argument that Jesus' siblings had no kids would have be absurd and laughed at if descendants of his relatives were walking around.

Now, let's talk about intercourse (not really, but you know what I mean).   How do we know that Mary did not have sex?  The is biblical argument about the gates of Jerusalem not being broke through.  Many others talked about this.

Once again, we have the historical argument: In 340, St Athanasius uses the term "ever-virgin Mary" and the way it is written is not like he is using it for the first time.  It was in common use.  The Nicene Creed uses the term Virgin Mary.  I think ever-virgin was used in the Fifth Ecumenical Council.   It was in widespread use in first 1000 years of the church and no one really fought over it.   So, the church either erred for 1000 years despite the fact that relatives of Jesus were walking around or it is true and no one argued over it because it was accepted fact.

The final argument is a harder one for me to make--the theological argument.  The first words man hears about God is to take off the shoes because this is a holy place.  We don't think much of holy places in America but they did in Israel.  Could there be a holier place than where Jesus dwelled for nine months?  There is nothing wrong with shoes, but in the wrong place (sacred land) it is inappropriate to where them.   Even more so with intercourse.  It is a beautiful thing, but only if done at the right time and in an appropriate manner.

This may not be enough evidence for you (although it is for most of the world's Christians).  Evidence of ancient times is limited compared to today.  I can prove where I was born, but that is only due to modern recordingkeeping.  How do I know they didn't type the wrong date on my birth certificate?  I can't know for sure, but we have to believe what others say at some point.

Prove this:

1) Mary actually married Joseph

2) The New Testament consists of the 27 books we have in it today.  These books are inspired and have equal or more authority than the Old Testament.

3) The resurrection happened.

There is evidence of two and three (not so much of one).  There is not irrefutable evidence.  They are matters of faith.
 

Hope this helps.

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2473 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 17:50:40 »
God hasn't allowed language to delete the fact that Mary and Joseph had other children.

There were other sons, James, Joseph, Simon and Judas, and there were also daughters.

Matthew 13:55-56
55 Then they scoffed, “He’s just the carpenter’s son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers—James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. 56 All his sisters live right here among us.

Offline trifecta

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2474 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 20:16:47 »
Lively, 

Read my entry more carefully.  Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't.  Now, unless English has more superiority over other languages and all those church fathers who believed in Mary's viginity are wrong, you may want to rethink this one.

As an analogy, where I am from, we often say "you guys" to refer to both men and women, but a literal reading would assume we are only speaking of men.

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2475 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 20:24:00 »
Lively, 

Read my entry more carefully.  Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't.  Now, unless English has more superiority over other languages and all those church fathers who believed in Mary's viginity are wrong, you may want to rethink this one.

As an analogy, where I am from, we often say "you guys" to refer to both men and women, but a literal reading would assume we are only speaking of men.


In this case according to specific CONTEXT, it means biological siblings.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2476 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 20:25:16 »
Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't. 


Let's just pretend that Jesus Had No Siblings....  

Now, how does that provide the mandate: "PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't mean just some interpretation of something or some implication you see, I mean PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that MARY HAD NO SEX EVER!"  

There is no doctrine of "Jesus Had No Sibs" (although that is an implication the RCC draws from a de fide dogma).  The DOGMA is "Mary had No Sex Ever."  It's about Mary, not Jesus.  It's about sex, not sibs.

 

 ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug::





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Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2477 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 20:31:57 »
Lively, 

Read my entry more carefully.  Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't.  Now, unless English has more superiority over other languages and all those church fathers who believed in Mary's viginity are wrong, you may want to rethink this one.

As an analogy, where I am from, we often say "you guys" to refer to both men and women, but a literal reading would assume we are only speaking of men.


In this case according to specific CONTEXT, it means biological siblings.

Proof?

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2478 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 20:45:29 »
Lively, 

Read my entry more carefully.  Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't.  Now, unless English has more superiority over other languages and all those church fathers who believed in Mary's viginity are wrong, you may want to rethink this one.

As an analogy, where I am from, we often say "you guys" to refer to both men and women, but a literal reading would assume we are only speaking of men.


In this case according to specific CONTEXT, it means biological siblings.

Proof?

Pray first, asking God to open your spiritual eyes. Then, read the account in a good English translation and refer to context in both Matthew and Mark. The disciples are not who they were referring to, for they were right there with him.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2479 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 20:59:54 »
Lively, 

Read my entry more carefully.  Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't.  Now, unless English has more superiority over other languages and all those church fathers who believed in Mary's viginity are wrong, you may want to rethink this one.

As an analogy, where I am from, we often say "you guys" to refer to both men and women, but a literal reading would assume we are only speaking of men.


In this case according to specific CONTEXT, it means biological siblings.

Proof?

Pray first, asking God to open your spiritual eyes. Then, read the account in a good English translation and refer to context in both Matthew and Mark. The disciples are not who they were referring to, for they were right there with him.


I didn't think so.

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2480 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 21:18:18 »
Lively, 

Read my entry more carefully.  Brother and sister didn't always mean those of the same biological parents.  In many languages today, it still doesn't.  Now, unless English has more superiority over other languages and all those church fathers who believed in Mary's viginity are wrong, you may want to rethink this one.

As an analogy, where I am from, we often say "you guys" to refer to both men and women, but a literal reading would assume we are only speaking of men.


In this case according to specific CONTEXT, it means biological siblings.

Proof?

Pray first, asking God to open your spiritual eyes. Then, read the account in a good English translation and refer to context in both Matthew and Mark. The disciples are not who they were referring to, for they were right there with him.


I didn't think so.

I won't do work for people who are closed. You will have to demonstrate an openness to learn. You can discover the truth for yourself by searching the Scriptures prayerfully. You do talk to God, don't you?

Offline stevehut

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2481 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 21:31:53 »
Why are we arguing about this?

As I've said before, I'm a Christian, which means that my faith is about Jesus.  Not Mary.  Tempers are flaring all over the place in here.  Mods, can we bring this fruitless discussion to a merciful end?  Pleeeez?

Lively Stone

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2482 on: Fri Mar 18, 2011 - 21:33:34 »
Why are we arguing about this?

As I've said before, I'm a Christian, which means that my faith is about Jesus.  Not Mary.  Tempers are flaring all over the place in here.  Mods, can we bring this fruitless discussion to a merciful end?  Pleeeez?



Offline Josiah

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2483 on: Sat Mar 19, 2011 - 16:34:47 »
Why are we arguing about this?

Truth matters.  It SHOULD matter if what is proclaimed as a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth is correct.   (People have been dispatched to the appointed afterlife a bit ahead of schedule smelling like smoke for LESS than disagreeing with de fide dogma....).   And it SHOULD matter if what is said about the most esteemed woman (if not human) as a matter of highest importance and greatest certainty is true or not.  

Friend, I assure you - IF the largest Protestant denomination tomorrow proclaimed that it is a dogmatic fact of highest importance to all and greatest certainty of Truth that the Pope is gay and is married to 5 men - you'd (rightly) have all 1.1 billion Catholics (and a whole lot more) screaming:  WHERE'S THE PROOF!!!!!!!!   Truth and honesty would matter - even though he is much, much, much less than is Our Blessed Lady.  In fact, my hunch is if you just here at this tiny website posted that it is a fact that a certain female poster here has sex 3 times a week, always in the shower - you'd be banned and your post deleted.   IMO, what we say matters.  And de fide dogma (binding, divisive, manditory DOGMA) matters.  

De fide dogma are issues of the very HIGHEST relevance and importance, it is claimed.   IF we can't talk about the important things, why talk about which fast food place as the best hamburgers or what funny thing our pet did today?  If DOGMA doesn't matter to Christians, why should lesser things?


That's MY perspective.....


Pax


- Josiah





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Offline stevehut

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Re: Question for Protestants who deny Mary's Virginity
« Reply #2484 on: Sat Mar 19, 2011 - 17:13:02 »

Truth matters. 

Either that or you just love picking fights and have a compulsive need to win every argument.   ::eek::