Re: CHURCHES

[Beta]

One Holy Universal Church! I agree. So then you must also believe in the Early Church Fathers, those men of God who led the One Universal Church right after the Apostles,  who formulated much of the Christian doctrine that we believe in today?

I'm afraid that the early church fathers you refer to were not endowed with the Hs since they had quite a different agenda from the original Apostles who were persecuted and killed.
One only receives the Holy Spirit if one is prepared to obey God and the RCC have never been obedient to the Word of God as was evident in their change of God's Sabbath to sunday only a short time after setting themselves in the place of God.

[LightHammer]

One Holy Universal Church! I agree. So then you must also believe in the Early Church Fathers, those men of God who led the One Universal Church right after the Apostles,  who formulated much of the Christian doctrine that we believe in today?

I'm afraid that the early church fathers you refer to were not endowed with the Hs since they had quite a different agenda from the original Apostles who were persecuted and killed.
One only receives the Holy Spirit if one is prepared to obey God and the RCC have never been obedient to the Word of God as was evident in their change of God's Sabbath to sunday only a short time after setting themselves in the place of God.

You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus.

[Reformer]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

[LightHammer]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do realize that Martin Luther also persecuted Jews and Anabpatist without mercy right? The same with Calvin.

That is also history and not hear-say.

[LightHammer]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do also realize that your Reformation Fathers disagreed on major tenets of Christian faith? The only thing they had in common was their hatred for my Church which they didn't really condemn until after we kicked them out.

More history and not here-say.

[gospel]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do also realize that your Reformation Fathers disagreed on major tenets of Christian faith? The only thing they had in common was their hatred for my Church which they didn't really condemn until after we kicked them out.

More history and not here-say.

Nevertheless the history you cite and the history we cite has one distinct difference...

Most denominations do not claim to be THE ONE SINGLE human institution started by Christ as if there is literally one Visible Church

As you have been informed on numerous occasions to no avail

The One True Church is The Invisible Church

The Body of Believers, whom The Lord Himself considers His Body, whom He alone only knows

As Buff alluded to

That would include believers from every sect and denomination

And also includes those who belong to no denomination as Paul  pointed out in
Romans 2:14-16

For indeed some will die not having the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and they will only be judged on the basis of their hearts

Bottom line, RCC, One Church bit is getting a little stale more importantly its a blatant untruth

[gospel]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do also realize that your Reformation Fathers disagreed on major tenets of Christian faith? The only thing they had in common was their hatred for my Church which they didn't really condemn until after we kicked them out.

More history and not here-say.

Nevertheless the history you cite and the history we cite has one distinct difference...

Most denominations do not claim to be THE ONE SINGLE human institution started by Christ as if there is literally one Visible Church

As you have been informed on numerous occasions to no avail

The One True Church is The Invisible Church

The Body of Believers, whom The Lord Himself considers His Body, whom He alone only knows

As Buff alluded to

That would include believers from every sect and denomination

And also includes those who belong to no denomination as Paul  pointed out in
Romans 2:14-16

For indeed some will die not having the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and they will only be judged on the basis of their hearts

Bottom line, RCC, One Church bit is getting a little stale more importantly its a blatant untruth

I know of no Christian community today that claims that the One True Church is an exclusively visible community. That's certainly not what my Church teaches now or ever.

So you're really loosing me here.

LH you lose many of us when you start claiming the Catholic Church is the True Church and the rest of us are part of a rebellion against the succession of leaders God set in place.

That is the genesis of your retort against Luther early in the thread is it not?

Now if I'm making that up, I'll gladly stand corrected but I am pretty sure you have stated one version of what I just stated at various points of your tenure in this forum....have you not?

Please correct me if I am wrong

[LightHammer]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do also realize that your Reformation Fathers disagreed on major tenets of Christian faith? The only thing they had in common was their hatred for my Church which they didn't really condemn until after we kicked them out.

More history and not here-say.

Nevertheless the history you cite and the history we cite has one distinct difference...

Most denominations do not claim to be THE ONE SINGLE human institution started by Christ as if there is literally one Visible Church

As you have been informed on numerous occasions to no avail

The One True Church is The Invisible Church

The Body of Believers, whom The Lord Himself considers His Body, whom He alone only knows

As Buff alluded to

That would include believers from every sect and denomination

And also includes those who belong to no denomination as Paul  pointed out in
Romans 2:14-16

For indeed some will die not having the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and they will only be judged on the basis of their hearts

Bottom line, RCC, One Church bit is getting a little stale more importantly its a blatant untruth

I know of no Christian community today that claims that the One True Church is an exclusively visible community. That's certainly not what my Church teaches now or ever.

So you're really loosing me here.

LH you lose many of us when you start claiming the Catholic Church is the True Church and the rest of us are part of a rebellion against the succession of leaders God set in place.

That is the genesis of your retort against Luther early in the thread is it not?

Now if I'm making that up, I'll gladly stand corrected but I am pretty sure you have stated one version of what I just stated at various points of your tenure in this forum....have you not?

Please correct me if I am wrong

Yea no idea what you're talking about.

My opposition towards Martin Luther is based on the simple fact that he's a heretic. He had a completely false definition of "Faith" and altered the Book of St. James to support such and that was only after he didn't have the means to effectively remove the Book of St. James from Sacred Scripture altogether.

He tried to stunt like he was Sola Scriptura but created his own canon of "disputed" books of the Bible.

People try to act like he was a champion against corruption when he literally had a slaughter fest against the Anabaptist and led state-ran campaigns against Jews.

I have no issues with reforming the Church. One of my favorite Christians is St. Francis of Assisi. He was believed to be given a holy vocation by God Himself to reform the Catholic Church. When he presented his ministry the Pope fell in line behind it. Now there are millions of Franciscan priests staying away from worldly issues who are basically acting as our Internal Affairs.

So reformation is not something I fear or resist. I'm just not some slave to influence. Martin Luther was no more someone to be idolized that the corrupt clergy of my past.

I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the One True Church.  Of course there's only one Church. It has its ranks on Earth and in Heaven. Water baptism (whatever you may believe about) is how people were initiated into that Body of Christ. The divisions we gather under are matters of orthodoxy not necessarily membership in the Body of Christ.

I believe wholeheartedly that you are a member of the Church/ Body of Christ and any other Protestant who is baptized properly and faithful to Christ as He directs. I do wish you receive the sacraments because I believe Christ gave them to us as a way for us to take Him in for nourishment more fully. That doesn't mean you're not apart of the Church only that you're missing out on something really helpful to our Christian lives.

Like I said I have no idea what you think we believe but I imagine its totally different from what we really believe.

[gospel]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do also realize that your Reformation Fathers disagreed on major tenets of Christian faith? The only thing they had in common was their hatred for my Church which they didn't really condemn until after we kicked them out.

More history and not here-say.

Nevertheless the history you cite and the history we cite has one distinct difference...

Most denominations do not claim to be THE ONE SINGLE human institution started by Christ as if there is literally one Visible Church

As you have been informed on numerous occasions to no avail

The One True Church is The Invisible Church

The Body of Believers, whom The Lord Himself considers His Body, whom He alone only knows

As Buff alluded to

That would include believers from every sect and denomination

And also includes those who belong to no denomination as Paul  pointed out in
Romans 2:14-16

For indeed some will die not having the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and they will only be judged on the basis of their hearts

Bottom line, RCC, One Church bit is getting a little stale more importantly its a blatant untruth

I know of no Christian community today that claims that the One True Church is an exclusively visible community. That's certainly not what my Church teaches now or ever.

So you're really loosing me here.

LH you lose many of us when you start claiming the Catholic Church is the True Church and the rest of us are part of a rebellion against the succession of leaders God set in place.

That is the genesis of your retort against Luther early in the thread is it not?

Now if I'm making that up, I'll gladly stand corrected but I am pretty sure you have stated one version of what I just stated at various points of your tenure in this forum....have you not?

Please correct me if I am wrong

Yea no idea what you're talking about.

My opposition towards Martin Luther is based on the simple fact that he's a heretic. He had a completely false definition of "Faith" and altered the Book of St. James to support such and that was only after he didn't have the means to effectively remove the Book of St. James from Sacred Scripture altogether.

He tried to stunt like he was Sola Scriptura but created his own canon of "disputed" books of the Bible.

People try to act like he was a champion against corruption when he literally had a slaughter fest against the Anabaptist and led state-ran campaigns against Jews.

I have no issues with reforming the Church. One of my favorite Christians is St. Francis of Assisi. He was believed to be given a holy vocation by God Himself to reform the Catholic Church. When he presented his ministry the Pope fell in line behind it. Now there are millions of Franciscan priests staying away from worldly issues who are basically acting as our Internal Affairs.

So reformation is not something I fear or resist. I'm just not some slave to influence. Martin Luther was no more someone to be idolized that the corrupt clergy of my past.

I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the One True Church.  Of course there's only one Church. It has its ranks on Earth and in Heaven. Water baptism (whatever you may believe about) is how people were initiated into that Body of Christ. The divisions we gather under are matters of orthodoxy not necessarily membership in the Body of Christ.

I believe wholeheartedly that you are a member of the Church/ Body of Christ and any other Protestant who is baptized properly and faithful to Christ as He directs. I do wish you receive the sacraments because I believe Christ gave them to us as a way for us to take Him in for nourishment more fully. That doesn't mean you're not apart of the Church only that you're missing out on something really helpful to our Christian lives.

Like I said I have no idea what you think we believe but I imagine its totally different from what we really believe.

You've made some good points and provided some clarity

However

Thank God for Martin Luther because despite his inadequacies and weaknesses God used him to correct the wrongs of the past leaders of your church which had the Body of Christ on a totally corrupt course in terms of corrupt religious practices, erroneous interpretation of scripture and the stronghold of oppression and abuse they wielded over the common man through various and sundry insidious tactics that are well documented

So was Luther perfect saint...of course not

But neither was Moses, Samson, David or Solomon

And they are literally patriarchs

Though Luther is not, the pattern holds that God does not use perfect people to achieve His purposes

When God wanted perfection in a man

He Himself came in the form of a man

[LightHammer]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

You do also realize that your Reformation Fathers disagreed on major tenets of Christian faith? The only thing they had in common was their hatred for my Church which they didn't really condemn until after we kicked them out.

More history and not here-say.

Nevertheless the history you cite and the history we cite has one distinct difference...

Most denominations do not claim to be THE ONE SINGLE human institution started by Christ as if there is literally one Visible Church

As you have been informed on numerous occasions to no avail

The One True Church is The Invisible Church

The Body of Believers, whom The Lord Himself considers His Body, whom He alone only knows

As Buff alluded to

That would include believers from every sect and denomination

And also includes those who belong to no denomination as Paul  pointed out in
Romans 2:14-16

For indeed some will die not having the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus and they will only be judged on the basis of their hearts

Bottom line, RCC, One Church bit is getting a little stale more importantly its a blatant untruth

I know of no Christian community today that claims that the One True Church is an exclusively visible community. That's certainly not what my Church teaches now or ever.

So you're really loosing me here.

LH you lose many of us when you start claiming the Catholic Church is the True Church and the rest of us are part of a rebellion against the succession of leaders God set in place.

That is the genesis of your retort against Luther early in the thread is it not?

Now if I'm making that up, I'll gladly stand corrected but I am pretty sure you have stated one version of what I just stated at various points of your tenure in this forum....have you not?

Please correct me if I am wrong

Yea no idea what you're talking about.

My opposition towards Martin Luther is based on the simple fact that he's a heretic. He had a completely false definition of "Faith" and altered the Book of St. James to support such and that was only after he didn't have the means to effectively remove the Book of St. James from Sacred Scripture altogether.

He tried to stunt like he was Sola Scriptura but created his own canon of "disputed" books of the Bible.

People try to act like he was a champion against corruption when he literally had a slaughter fest against the Anabaptist and led state-ran campaigns against Jews.

I have no issues with reforming the Church. One of my favorite Christians is St. Francis of Assisi. He was believed to be given a holy vocation by God Himself to reform the Catholic Church. When he presented his ministry the Pope fell in line behind it. Now there are millions of Franciscan priests staying away from worldly issues who are basically acting as our Internal Affairs.

So reformation is not something I fear or resist. I'm just not some slave to influence. Martin Luther was no more someone to be idolized that the corrupt clergy of my past.

I don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the One True Church.  Of course there's only one Church. It has its ranks on Earth and in Heaven. Water baptism (whatever you may believe about) is how people were initiated into that Body of Christ. The divisions we gather under are matters of orthodoxy not necessarily membership in the Body of Christ.

I believe wholeheartedly that you are a member of the Church/ Body of Christ and any other Protestant who is baptized properly and faithful to Christ as He directs. I do wish you receive the sacraments because I believe Christ gave them to us as a way for us to take Him in for nourishment more fully. That doesn't mean you're not apart of the Church only that you're missing out on something really helpful to our Christian lives.

Like I said I have no idea what you think we believe but I imagine its totally different from what we really believe.

You've made some good points and provided some clarity

However

Thank God for Martin Luther because despite his inadequacies and weaknesses God used him to correct the wrongs of the past leaders of your church which had the Body of Christ on a totally corrupt course in terms of corrupt religious practices, erroneous interpretation of scripture and the stronghold of oppression and abuse they wielded over the common man through various and sundry insidious tactics that are well documented

So was Luther perfect saint...of course not

But neither was Moses, Samson, David or Solomon

And they are literally patriarchs

Though Luther is not, the pattern holds that God does not use perfect people to achieve His purposes

When God wanted perfection in a man

He Himself came in the form of a man

Martin Luther honestly provided nothing altering to Christianity. His entire impact on history is rooted not on theology but on really politics. Martin Luther helped put an end to the papal state and he wasn't the first or the most influence. King Henry, Queen Elizabeth and of course Napoleon are way way more responsible for the fall of temporal Christianity.

While people like to act like there were no Bibles in western vernaculars, the truth is there were over a 1000 Bibles in the German language alone and they all predate Martin Luther's birth. There were Bibles in English going back to St. Bede. So we can all stunt like Martin Luther was some sort of great champion over corruption but try and tell that the Jews and the Anabaptist who's bodies lie barren and destitute by the hands of the armies he commanded.

Yea fall for that stuff if you want. I'll pass.   

[Swiss_Guard]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

As I started reading this thread, I was thinking "I wonder how the Protestants are going to turn this topic into an attack on the Catholic Church?" I knew you'd manage it somehow; after all, constantly ranting about the RCC is basically all there is to Protestantism in a nutshell.

[gospel]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

As I started reading this thread, I was thinking "I wonder how the Protestants are going to turn this topic into an attack on the Catholic Church?" I knew you'd manage it somehow; after all, constantly ranting about the RCC is basically all there is to Protestantism in a nutshell.

You should probably go back and reread the thread to see how Catholicism was introduced into the conversation

After doing so .....

re-read your own last sentence

[LightHammer]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

As I started reading this thread, I was thinking "I wonder how the Protestants are going to turn this topic into an attack on the Catholic Church?" I knew you'd manage it somehow; after all, constantly ranting about the RCC is basically all there is to Protestantism in a nutshell.

You should probably go back and reread the thread to see how Catholicism was introduced into the conversation

After doing so .....

re-read your own last sentence

You should try it too. Just a thought.

[gospel]

   Lighthammer, you wrote: "You do realize that every ECF for 400 years were persecuted and killed in the same manner as the Apostles. Some of them even knew the Apostles, like my personal favorite St. Ignatius of Antioch. Then there's some ECF's who are even mentioned in Sacred Scripture like the second Pope, St. Linus. "
______

   And the RCC, once it became a seat of power, persecuted hundreds of thousands who refused to bow their knees to the Pope. The RCC sought to capture and kill one of our greatest reformers, Martin Luther. This is history, not hear-say.

Buff

As I started reading this thread, I was thinking "I wonder how the Protestants are going to turn this topic into an attack on the Catholic Church?" I knew you'd manage it somehow; after all, constantly ranting about the RCC is basically all there is to Protestantism in a nutshell.

You should probably go back and reread the thread to see how Catholicism was introduced into the conversation

After doing so .....

re-read your own last sentence

You should try it too. Just a thought.

Just a suggestion LH but while you were having that thought did you think to re-read your initial posts in this thread?

 

[Ladonia]

One Holy Universal Church! I agree. So then you must also believe in the Early Church Fathers, those men of God who led the One Universal Church right after the Apostles,  who formulated much of the Christian doctrine that we believe in today?

Please note the following quote from my column:  

   "The early believers were called Christians, saints, believers, brothers, disciples, servants, and fellow workers. It is interesting that none of them were called Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Roman Catholics, Church of Christers, Mormons, Pentecostals, or any of the other partisan names in the rainbow of partisan colors."

   As you are apparently a member of one of the above churches, please be advised. Thanks

Buff

It is my understanding the the word "Roman" in Roman Catholic was used as a slur, starting around the mid 1500's by the Anglican Church in England. Before that, we were known as the Western Rite of Christianity as opposed to the Eastern or Orthodox Rite, the result of the "Great Schism" in 1054 that broke apart the one universal (Catholic) Christian Church.

It was not just a spiritual entity, but a physical one as well with Church buildings and centers of learning called monasteries etc. Do you mean there were others that existed before the "Greast Schism" that had as much of an impact on the formulation of basic Christian doctrine as the heretofore mentioned one universal  (Catholic) Christian Church?