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Offline Ladonia

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #175 on: Mon Apr 02, 2012 - 09:13:01 »
Jesus is God Incarnate here on earth. If one believes that, then He is the one who basically WROTE the Law. He can tell anyone anything, do as He wishes, change "The Law" on the spot. After reading the New Testament, it seems to me  like He did this multiple times.  So no, He is not a sinner.
God incarnate? Absolutely.

But as we are told, He divested himself of all that and lived here as a mortal human Jewish male.  

Phil 2.7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.

Hebrews tells us he is our example so what he did was done by the power of the Holy Spirit and NOT his own inherent divinity. (which we do not have). So He did NOT re-write the Law on any occasion because that would have been going beyond being our example.

He never broke the Law, He never re-wrote the Law.


We must not be reading the same scriptures because I see that time, after time, after time He, perhaps we should say, "disregarded"  the Old Law as He went about preaching during His ministry. He was the "New Covenant", come to supersede the old one. It is true, He could never break the Law no matter what He did. He was the Law, the "Word" made flesh which always existed.

So, how did you miss the preceding verse, which I think was as important as the one you cited?

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

God bless.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 02, 2012 - 09:38:55 by Ladonia »

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #175 on: Mon Apr 02, 2012 - 09:13:01 »

Offline Monte1945

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #176 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 19:41:36 »

So if Sacred tradition is the Word of God why was it left out of the Bible,also what about the below verse

Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

I LOVE it when Protestants quote this passage from Revelation.
Tell me something - WHAT is this passage talking about?

As for your question about why Sacred Tradition is not written down in the bible - I would think the answer is blindingly CLEAR to you:
Because it is ORAL Tradition - not WRITTEN Tradition.

I await your answer to my question . . .

The meaning of the verse is in the verse,simply do not add to the Word of God.....

"It's not in the scripture's because it's oral"Sooo how do you all no what they are?


You are in Texas wanting to go to New York so you head for Seattle Wash..... that is what you are doing... you are making this very
difficult to explain because the Tradtions you have in your mind something strange and hidden from Christians.

Let me attempt to explain it too you.... When Jesus left, and he said, "Go preaching the Gospel to all nations..

There was not any written gospels... just the Apostles and their voice sermons.....

These sermons, contained the Good news of Jesus being the Messiah.... these sermons were the traditions of the church.....
Preached by the  Apostles who did not need any written word to take the gospel to the people...

They also preached a very direct sermon topic which said, the end of the world was coming any day...

They did not think there was any need to write anything down... there would not be enough time left  for it....

The Apostles went to different parts of the then known world... and they set up a church.... they had classes where they
taught catechism lessons on how to preach the gospel.. John had a very large one in Asia Minor...

Thirteen years after the conversation of St. Paul he began to write letters to some of the churches he visited.. to settle some
disputes.. some of the  people in those churches asked the bishop of their section could they read some of Paul's letters during church services and
letters from other writers.. and the Bishop informed them, that they could AS LONG as the letters did not go against the traditions
the Apostles had been preaching since the beginning....

If you will goggle the history of the bible, and the lost gospels you will find a long list of the letters which were allowed to be read in the church.
It is quite common among theologians who agree that one of the first writings written and from which the first three gospels were based off of
was another writings, which was known by different names and one is: The sayings of the Apostles....

After awhile there were called councils which discussed the letters which the church was to make their official New Testament.. this process took
many many years... I believe the last council which finally decided the new testament books was in 1587 or close to it..

There  has been many letters accepted as inspired works for the laity to read and be inspired by...

With the history of the traditions of the Catholic church, and the many books which were accepted to be read in church.. and the stipulation that
these books had to go with the traditions of the church.. it is quite easy to see that the bible came from the traditions.. one CAN NOT separate
them...  The Traditions decided the contents of the new Testament....

one could say, and hold a point when said, that Traditions gave us the old testament too...there was, and is two different Torahs which the Jewish faith has been arguing over for the past 2500 years... when the Jewish church was separated in 587 BC there was allowed in the Northern Kingdom a commentary of the Torah which was blended in with the Torah...  The southern Jews rejected it then and reject it now... Any Commentary is considered a "tradition" of a certain group who has studied the scriptures and come out with their beliefs for what those said scriptures are saying...

In Jesus' time there was a separation of the Jewish faith... Jesus was of the Pharisaic beliefs.. but at the same time, but has since died out, another group of Jews.. They are the Sadducee'. Even in the new testament Jesus went head to head with them.. they did not believe in body resurrection   
nor spirits including angels...  and they are the ones who questioned him about who's husband the woman would have after she was married to the seven brothers.... in the other world...etc..

The old testament was not hand written until eight hundred years after the events took place in Egypt.. These stories were kept alive by oral
preaching, and what is called the oral traditions...

There is ample examples of traditions being used in the new testament... to show the examples of it being used even then....

Matthew, states that Joseph was told to go into Nazareth where Jesus would be from, as it was to fulfill the prophets who said he was to
be a Nazarene. How ever there is not mention of this prophecy in the old Testament.... written down... This prophecy was known by tradition alone.



Go study the history of the bible, and you will learn many new and interesting facts of the faith...


 


 

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #176 on: Fri Apr 13, 2012 - 19:41:36 »

Offline neophyte

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #177 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 12:32:56 »
Thank you Monte1945, that was interesting and very true.Welcome, hope you stay around and show the Truth of Christianity.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #178 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 13:29:22 »
I'll second that. That was as clear and simple an explanation of the faith, of tradition, of the Holy Scriptures that I have ever heard. Very well said. ::amen!::

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #178 on: Sat Apr 14, 2012 - 13:29:22 »

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #179 on: Wed Apr 18, 2012 - 18:50:36 »
The prophecy in Matthew 2:23, that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, came directly from scripture, not oral tradition.

Matthew got the prophecy directly from the Holy Spirit. Inspiration means that the prophecy did not come by an act of human will. We are offended that anyone would suggest the authors of the Bible rely upon human records and not the Holy Spirit. "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2 Pet 1:20-21)

Catholic and Orthodox defenders must contradict the traditional interpretation of the Fathers (Jerome) of Mt 2:23 and their own theologians. They are therefore violating the very principle of oral tradition and the "authority of the church" to interpret scripture, that they are trying to prove. Such an argument is as dishonest as it is self-defeating.

Jerome says that Isa 11:1 is the Old Testament prophecy: "Once more it is written in the pages of the same evangelist, "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene." Let these word fanciers and nice critics of all composition tell us where they have read the words; and if they cannot, let me tell them that they are in Isaiah. For in the place where we read and translate, "There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots," in the Hebrew idiom it is written thus, "There shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse and a Nazarene shall grow from his root." " (Jerome, Letter 47:7)

Here is an incredibly hard pill for these Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders of tradition for swallow. The fact that Jerome applies Isa 11:1 to Mt 2:23 is bad enough. But Jerome is defending the scripture from those who said the prophecy was wrong. Instead of Jerome replying, "Hey its from oral tradition", he actually replied in exactly the same way we would and actually pointed out the Old Testament passage! Jerome calls these men, "word fanciers and nice critics of all composition". Jerome therefore would make the same criticism of all Roman Catholic and Orthodox defenders who say "its not in the Old Testament."

Yet, the Old Testament clearly prophecies that Jesus will be called a Nazarene and there is no need to look to oral tradition.
Notice it says "prophets" (plural) not a single prophet. This is an example of where Matthew combines the words of several different prophets to show the fulfillment. Clearly we are not looking for a single statement, but a combined meaning. We are looking for a theme.

This is confirmed by Nathanael's comment in John 1:46, "Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?"

It is an error to confuse Nazarene with a Nazirite (Num 6:2-5).

The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia gives us the answer: "In the manuscripts of the New Testament, the name [Nazareth] occurs in a great orthographical variety, such as Nazaret, Nazareth, Nazara, Nazarat, and the like. In the time of Eusebius and St. Jerome (Onomasticon), its name was Nazara (in modern Arabic, en Nasirah), which therefore, seems to be the correct name; in the New Testament we find its derivatives written Nazarenos, or Nazoraios, but never Nazaretaios. The etymology of Nazara is neser, which means "a shoot". The Vulgate renders this word by flos, "flower", in the Prophecy of Isaiah 11:1, which is applied to the Saviour. St. Jerome (Epist., xlvii, "Ad Marcellam") gives the same interpretation to the name of the town." (New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, Nazareth)

"Nazareth: separated, generally supposed to be the Greek form of the Hebrew netser, a "shoot" or "sprout."" (Easton's Bible dictionary, Nazareth)

"Thus the word "Nazarene" carries with it an allusion to those prophecies which speak of Christ as "despised of men" (Isa. 53:3). Some, however, think that in this name there is an allusion to the Hebrew netser, which signifies a branch or sprout. It is so applied to the Messiah (Isa. 11:1), i.e., he whom the prophets called the Netse, the "Branch." (Easton's Bible dictionary, Nazarene)

The Old Testament passages regarding branch are: Is 4:2; 11:1; 53:2; Jer 23:5; 33:15; Zech 3:8; 6:12.
The Old Testament passages that Christ was despised, humiliated and hated: Psa. 22:6-8; 69:8; Isa 49:7
Here is a prophecy of the Branch who was Jesus: "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the Lord." Zechariah 6:12

Isa 53 combines both the idea of "branch" and humiliation". "For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him." Isaiah 53:2-3

So to say you are a Nazarene would be personally humiliating and degrading. It would cause people to look down on you... just as Isa 53 says.
Jesus wears the name with pride: Acts 22:8 "I am Jesus the Nazarene." I response to Paul, who may have been using the name as a slur before he was converted.
Even if our etymological connection with Nazarene and neser (branch) is incorrect, it is still clear that he would be despised and looked down upon. In this way, the Hebrews, who despised and looked down upon Nazarenes, would immediately leap the logic and make the connection.

For those Catholics who question that Nazarene is connected with shoot, they must contradict their own encyclopedia and the interpretation of Jerome.



 


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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #179 on: Wed Apr 18, 2012 - 18:50:36 »



Offline broach972

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #180 on: Sat Apr 21, 2012 - 21:57:44 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Online mclees8

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #181 on: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 12:51:32 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Have you ever asked yourself why 35,000 protestant denominations happened in the first place. Could it not been because of a very corrupt religious hierachy that claimed to be the true church but looked very little like it when held up to scripture. If this church had really lived up too the apostles traditions the reformation may never have happend. It never accurs to many catholics to look at itself before pointing at the confusion of denominationalism.  

Offline winsome

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #182 on: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 15:12:54 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Have you ever asked yourself why 35,000 protestant denominations happened in the first place.

They didn't happen in the first place.

In the first place there was just Lutherans, then the Anabaptists, then Mennonites split from Anabaptists, then Anglican, then Calvanists then Presbyterians, then Baptists, Quakers, Amish, Methodists etc. – all breaking away from each other and sub dividing. All because they all thought they could infallibly interpret scripture.

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #183 on: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 18:34:36 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Have you ever asked yourself why 35,000 protestant denominations happened in the first place.

They didn't happen in the first place.

In the first place there was just Lutherans, then the Anabaptists, then Mennonites split from Anabaptists, then Anglican, then Calvanists then Presbyterians, then Baptists, Quakers, Amish, Methodists etc. – all breaking away from each other and sub dividing. All because they all thought they could infallibly interpret scripture.


No Winsome,

They broke away from the yoke of the Church which had them chained like slaves being driven by a wicked and sinful master.  You so quickly forget the true saints are called to come out of the world/Church and not to go into unto her.

Pro 7:8  Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house (RCC),
Pro 7:9  In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night (Judas):
Pro 7:10  And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot (Rev 17), and subtil of heart.
Pro 7:11  (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house: (O yes the Catholic here portray a loud and stubborn will - by whom did they learn this from?)
Pro 7:12  Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
Pro 7:13  So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
Pro 7:14  I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
Pro 7:15  Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
Pro 7:16  I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. (The RCC is full of riches and precious things)
Pro 7:17  I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. ( O the decadence of the Church)
Pro 7:18  Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.  (A Harlot who has prostitued herself with the nations and its kings)
Pro 7:19  For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey: (While Christ is away she plays the harlot with anybody who will have her)
Pro 7:20  He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
Pro 7:21  With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him. (A beast which speaks as a lamb!)
Pro 7:22  He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
Pro 7:23  Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
Pro 7:24  Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
Pro 7:25  Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
Pro 7:26  For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
Pro 7:27  Her (RCC) house is the way to hell (hades =grave), going down to the chambers of death::frown::

And so all who take her fill will end up being the sons of destruction.

This thing is foretold that the Church and her many daughters will go into perdition.

Insight

« Last Edit: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 19:34:13 by Insight »

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #184 on: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 19:39:56 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."



Purple and Scarlet... ::frown::

Even with no descripton of her attire, the mere fact that this woman was out and about late at night (amidst the gentile darkness) is enough to suggest her "occupation", and her purpose -- godly women (the true bride of Christ) would be at home in bed!

Enough said.



Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #185 on: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 20:45:18 »
Quote
I removed the comments made here as flaming and trolling in my opinion not conducive to staying in context with the OP.  larry2.

Well it still does not remove the fact that Lighthammer has removed whole threads based on what?

Insight
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 22:37:07 by Insight »

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #186 on: Mon Apr 23, 2012 - 21:03:54 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

And what may I ask does scripture interpting itself,got to do with all the different denominations?

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #187 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 00:02:13 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."



Purple and Scarlet... ::frown::

Even with no descripton of her attire, the mere fact that this woman was out and about late at night (amidst the gentile darkness) is enough to suggest her "occupation", and her purpose -- godly women (the true bride of Christ) would be at home in bed!

Enough said.





You know the truth can be so blatantly clear and obvious as above but when deception runs so deep in a Roman believer their only option is to fall on their sword of conviction out of total and utter fear for what the alternative may present.

Imagine discovering everything you held as truth was all lies.

How sick in the stomach would you be and how great would your trembling be before His Word; knowing it foretold of such a powerful seductive woman as the Roman Catholic Church and all the while you found delight in her bosom.

In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye you would simultaneously experience profound anger but also profound humility that the true God of Abraham called you out of Rome to set you on a path of discovering truth.

Wow – the mind can scarcely take it in.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #188 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 03:52:10 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Give me a verse that need's tradition to interpret it............

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #189 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 07:55:58 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Give me a verse that need's tradition to interpret it............

We have disagreed on many doctrinal points of view but this statement is short, succinct and powerful.

The reality is not one verse can be supplied because their traditions are not found in the Word of God. Now if the Word does not speak to their tradition and their traditions cannot speak to the Word...

What sayest thou dear Roman?

Offline winsome

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #190 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 10:36:31 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."


So you think God instructed Aaron to dress as a prostitute?

“From among the Israelites have your brother Aaron, together with his sons Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, brought to you, that they may be my priests. For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made. Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest. These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests, they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.
“The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined. It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends. The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.
“Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel......

The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined. It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide. On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald; in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl; 1in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work
....

All around the hem at the bottom you shall make pomegranates, woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen twined, with gold bells between them;

Offline winsome

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #191 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 10:45:01 »
Even with no descripton of her attire, the mere fact that this woman was out and about late at night (amidst the gentile darkness) is enough to suggest her "occupation", and her purpose -- godly women (the true bride of Christ) would be at home in bed!


So are you saying that when Paul went to preach the gospel to the Gentiles he was playing the harlot? ::headscratch::

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #192 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 11:01:55 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."


So you think God instructed Aaron to dress as a prostitute?

“From among the Israelites have your brother Aaron, together with his sons Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, brought to you, that they may be my priests. For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made. Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest. These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests, they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.
“The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined. It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends. The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.
“Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel......

The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined. It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide. On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald; in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl; 1in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work
....

All around the hem at the bottom you shall make pomegranates, woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen twined, with gold bells between them;

And thus once again Insight is enlightened to biblical truth. ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #193 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 11:10:41 »
Question

Since scripture interprets itself,why do Catholic's rely so much on tradions....

Also where did these traditions come from?

Scripture interprets itself?  Are you serious?   If this is true, then why are there 35,000 different protestant denominations?  Why is Christianity the most fragmented faith in the world?  Where in Scripture does it say that it interprets itself?  Sola scriptura is the most ridiculous and flawed doctrine to ever come out of the Reformation.

Give me a verse that need's tradition to interpret it............

We have disagreed on many doctrinal points of view but this statement is short, succinct and powerful.

The reality is not one verse can be supplied because their traditions are not found in the Word of God. Now if the Word does not speak to their tradition and their traditions cannot speak to the Word...

What sayest thou dear Roman?


Your eyes are open when you read the Word, but once again you do not see.

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #194 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 19:40:15 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."


So you think God instructed Aaron to dress as a prostitute?

“From among the Israelites have your brother Aaron, together with his sons Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, brought to you, that they may be my priests. For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made. Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest. These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests, they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.
“The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined. It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends. The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.
“Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel......

The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined. It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide. On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald; in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl; 1in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work
....

All around the hem at the bottom you shall make pomegranates, woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen twined, with gold bells between them;

And thus once again Insight is enlightened to biblical truth. ::clappingoverhead::

You clap and rejoice in a law that cannot save  ::pondering:: once again the Romanist falls back on the Law to uphold their manner of dress.

 ::whistle::

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #195 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 22:58:39 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."


So you think God instructed Aaron to dress as a prostitute?

“From among the Israelites have your brother Aaron, together with his sons Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, brought to you, that they may be my priests. For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made. Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest. These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests, they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.
“The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined. It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends. The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.
“Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel......

The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined. It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide. On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald; in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl; 1in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work
....

All around the hem at the bottom you shall make pomegranates, woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen twined, with gold bells between them;

And thus once again Insight is enlightened to biblical truth. ::clappingoverhead::

You clap and rejoice in a law that cannot save  ::pondering:: once again the Romanist falls back on the Law to uphold their manner of dress.

 ::whistle::

You missed the most vital point the Sacred Scripture has revealed to you. Well IMO at least.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #196 on: Tue Apr 24, 2012 - 23:31:08 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

Offline winsome

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #197 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 04:01:12 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.

It is the Church that interprets scripture.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #198 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 04:53:25 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.
 
It is the Church that interprets scripture.


That's right, the Church that gave us the New Testament Canon is the Church that correctly interprets them.  ::amen!::

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #199 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 05:10:17 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????


You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.
 
It is the Church that interprets scripture.



That's right, the Church that gave us the New Testament Canon is the Church that correctly interprets them.  ::amen!::


Are you able to show us where in the New Testament are your bishops instructed to where scarlet and purple robes other than Rev 17 as previously stated.



 ::shrug::


Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #200 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 05:22:52 »
In Proverbs 7 did you notice the similarities of Rev 17?

DRESSED LIKE A PROSTITUTE

History has shown how harlots did dress very distinctively as per Gen 38:14,15 (See Hos 2:4). But the dress plays no role in the story and she seems to need no identification". The harlot's attire is described in Rev 17:4:

"The woman (RCC) was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls."



So you think God instructed Aaron to dress as a prostitute?

“From among the Israelites have your brother Aaron, together with his sons Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, brought to you, that they may be my priests. For the glorious adornment of your brother Aaron you shall have sacred vestments made. Therefore, to the various expert workmen whom I have endowed with skill, you shall give instructions to make such vestments for Aaron as will set him apart for his sacred service as my priest. These are the vestments they shall make: a breastpiece, an ephod, a robe, a brocaded tunic, a miter and a sash. In making these sacred vestments which your brother Aaron and his sons are to wear in serving as my priests, they shall use gold, violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen.
“The ephod they shall make of gold thread and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, embroidered on cloth of fine linen twined. It shall have a pair of shoulder straps joined to its two upper ends. The embroidered belt of the ephod shall extend out from it and, like it, be made of gold thread, of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, and of fine linen twined.
“Get two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel......

The breastpiece of decision you shall also have made, embroidered like the ephod with gold thread and violet, purple and scarlet yarn on cloth of fine linen twined. It is to be square when folded double, a span high and a span wide. On it you shall mount four rows of precious stones: in the first row, a carnelian, a topaz and an emerald; in the second row, a garnet, a sapphire and a beryl; 1in the third row, a jacinth, an agate and an amethyst; in the fourth row, a chrysolite, an onyx and a jasper. These stones are to be mounted in gold filigree work
....

All around the hem at the bottom you shall make pomegranates, woven of violet, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen twined, with gold bells between them;


And thus once again Insight is enlightened to biblical truth. ::clappingoverhead::


You clap and rejoice in a law that cannot save  ::pondering:: once again the Romanist falls back on the Law to uphold their manner of dress.

 ::whistle::


You missed the most vital point the Sacred Scripture has revealed to you. Well IMO at least.


No point missed here Lighthammer.

We have well established with Elvis, yourself and many other Roman Catholics that your religion is based on the principles of the Law (legal).  The RCC traditions have their foundations in Judaism and carried forward the jot and tittle approach to religious practise and instruction. We have seen as Winsome so aptly proved the garments of the law and all the symbolism which is nowhere found in the New Testament, and rightly so.

Maybe you would show us NT passages for the following items:

•   Mitre
•   Papal Ring
•   Der Fanon
•   Tippet
•   Alb
•   Chasuble
•   Sash
•   Cassock



Let’s begin with the apostate attire of the Pope before moving into the chapels and cathedrals with all their stain glass windows... more images, engravings and graven lifeless images that establish her Babylonian heritage.

Insight

p.s So you think God instructed Aaron to dress as a prostitute? No but he knew Israel would become one.

Jer_3:1  They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Your Church has done likewise from its beginnings it played the harlot.









 

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #201 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 06:05:35 »
Maybe in Peters writings one would think?  ::pondering::

I have provided and outline of the first key given to Peter expressed in the following key of suffering in this present world.

1. INTRODUCTION — Ch. 1:1-2

•The Definition of a Christian — Ch. 1: 1- 2;

2. THE CALL AND WHAT IT INVOLVES — Ch. 1:3-2:10

•Our Living Hope — Ch. 1: 3-12;
•The Living Way — Ch. 1:13-16;
•The Living Sacrifice — Ch. 1:17-21;
•The Living Word — Ch. 1:22-25;
•The Living Power — Ch. 2: 1- 3;
•The Living Stones — Ch. 2: 4- 8;
•The Living Priesthood — Ch. 2: 9-10;

3. THE PILGRIM LIFE AND HOW TO LIVE IT —

Ch. 2:11-4:11

•Towards the World — Ch. 2:11-17;
•Towards Masters — Ch. 2:18-25;
•Towards Husbands — Ch. 3: 1-6;
•Towards Wives — Ch. 3: 7;
•Towards Brethren — Ch. 3: 8-9;
•Towards Outsiders — Ch. 3:10-13;
•Towards Persecution — Ch. 3:14-17;
•Imitating Christ, the Pattern — Ch. 3:18-22;
•The Weapons of Victory — Ch. 4: 1-11;

4. THE FIERY TRIAL AND HOW TO BEAR IT — Ch. 4:12-5:11

*As Partakers of Christ's Sufferings — Ch. 4:12-19;

*As Elders Providing an Example — Ch. 5: 1-4;

* As the Flock Submitting in Humility — Ch. 5: 5-11;

5. FINAL WORDS — Ch. 5:12-14

^Greetings from Babylon — Ch. 5:12-14;

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #202 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 06:11:59 »
In terms of Christ second key to Peter which he passed on to all willing and able men and women the second Key concerning the glory which shall follow is found in 2 Peter.

Sadly, I could not find anything to do with preistly robes and all the paraphanalia that is found in the RCC.

Not one word!

1. DIVINE REVELATION: THE ANTIDOTE TO MORAL CORRUPTION — Ch. 1

*The Purpose of the Revelation Vv. 1- 4;
*The Application of the Revelation Vv. 5-11;
*The Availability of the Revelation Vv. 12-15;
*The Authenticity of the Revelation Vv. 16-21;

2. DIVINE REVELATION: THE ANTIDOTE TO DOCTRINAL CORRUPTION — Ch. 2

*The Certainty of Apostasy Vv. 1- 3;
*The Certainty of Judgment Vv. 4-9;
* The Nature of the Apostasy Vv. 10-16;
*The Polluting Influence of the Apostasy .... Vv. 17-22;

3. DIVINE REVELATION: THE ANTIDOTE TO POLITICAL CORRUPTION — Ch. 3

*The Scoffers' Challenge Vv. 1- 4;
*The Scoffers' Ignorance Vv. 5- 7;
*The Scoffers' Judgment Vv. 8-12;
*The Assurance of Hope Vv. 13-16;
*The Need of Spiritual Growth Vv. 17-18;

Offline AVZ

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #203 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 06:26:03 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.

It is the Church that interprets scripture.


Perhaps it would be better to say that it's the Holy Spirit that interprets scripture?

Offline Insight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #204 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 07:48:53 »
I am pleased you agreed that your traditions including the popes attire cannot be found anywhere in Peters epistles. That's one hurdle we need not cross.

While you are correct about true Christianity being founded in Israel however not all Israel is Israel.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel :(Romans 9:6)

Those who were not Israel were those sects of Judaism which were the majority of Jewish believers of Christ’s day.

Today the Christian equivalent is founded in the Roman Catholic Church and her daughters.

Quote
Why do you call it apostate attire?

Just calling it so doesn’t make it so.

You seem to go in for that sort of  erroneous argument.

The whole system of worship is apostate; its garments and all the appearance of religious formalities are abhorrent to God and Jesus Christ and are nowhere taught in the New Testament.

Now, those who have laboured in this forum over the past 12 months have seen time and time again when pressed hard about a practice of doctrine often more than not you would take us to the OT to prove your system of worship.

This presents a real problem for you as your entire church is built on a legalistic ritualistic worship which is not found anywhere taught by the first century Apostles. Now there is no need to defend this statement for its truth is widely accepted by even those Catholics I talk to from day to day.

The problem grows larger when the Catholic beings to question the system and its ritualistic practices and them consults the living Word to find its instruction.

The silence is deafening when they find their Church is made up of ritualistic formalities designed to elevate men to positions of power and authority so that like the Pharisee they can rob the people of the keys of knowledge for which Jesus warned them sternly in their utter pride and pomp.

This time Christ will not warn he will destroy the lawyers whom you have entrusted your spiritual guidance.

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11:52)

I promise you winsome that Christ will utterly destroy the Roman Catholic Church and all her evil practices.

I am sorry you are entangled therein.

Insight


 


Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #205 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 18:36:29 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.

It is the Church that interprets scripture.


So from your view, only the pope can interpret scripture,is this correct?

larry2

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #206 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 21:48:07 »

When your eyes are opened, O the weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see the poor in spirit enter the Kingdom and you yourselves thrust out.


What an unkind thing to say to another that has professed to believing in Christ. He has confessed Jesus to me and I believe him to be my true brother in Christ. If you're going to attack a religion, do so without bashing them in the religion you have no idea of what's in their hearts. Possibly realizing what the criteria is to being in Christ would be a start, and I do believe you do, but you're judging someone only God knows the intent of his heart, his prayers, and his love of the Lord.

Different ones have quoted Revelation 18:4 and relating it to the Catholic Church and if you notice, at that future time possibly the entirety of Christiandom will be in that apostate condition. "Come out of her, my people."

The very nature of man separates our worship. In Spirit and in truth? Romans 14:3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Romans 14:6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
 
My thoughts.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #207 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 23:44:00 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.

It is the Church that interprets scripture.


Okayyyyyyy,so how does the church interpret scripture?

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #208 on: Wed Apr 25, 2012 - 23:53:47 »
Is Scripture the Best Interpreter of Scripture?


Some theologians assert that there is no specific command in the Bible stating scripture must interpret scripture.  Have these wise men ever considered that GOD INSPIRES ALL SCRIPTURE?

2 Tim 3:14-17    You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith that is in Christ Jesus.  All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate equipped for every good work.  (NAS)

The apostle Paul wrote to Timothy in verse 15 regarding the “sacred writings

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Sacred Tradition
« Reply #209 on: Thu Apr 26, 2012 - 03:03:24 »
Anyone find a verse yet??????

You seem to be under some misapprehension here.

It is not scripture that interprets scripture.

It is not Tradition that interprets scripture.

It is the Church that interprets scripture.


Okayyyyyyy,so how does the church interpret scripture?

Given the authority to do so by Jesus Christ and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

     
anything