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Offline winsome

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Salvation by Works?
« on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 13:42:36 »
Salvation by Works?

Protestants often accuse Catholics of “salvation by works”, particularly in regard to baptism.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary gives several definitions of work. The first and most general is:
“activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a result.”

By this definition “believing” and “confessing with the lips” is work. Therefore Protestants believe in “salvation by works”. Of course they deny it – but then Catholics also deny they believe in “salvation by works”. Instead of throwing slogans around we need to look at what scripture says about this.

St. Paul’s writes much about salvation (justification) and works in his letter to the Romans. A key text is Rom 3:19-28, and a key phrase that Paul uses in this is “works of the law”
20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

(He also uses the phrase works of the law in Gal 2:1, 3:2, 5 & 10)

This implies that Paul recognises two classes of “works” – works of the law and works that are not works of the law. We’ll come to the latter later. But let us concentrate on what Paul means by works of the law.

In Romans 2 he writes
25 Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
And in Gal 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them."

Clearly by works of the law Paul is referring to the Jewish law.

The Concise Oxford English Dictionary helpfully gives a definition of this class of works - “such activity as a means of earning income”.

It is in this sense of earning something that Paul uses the word in Rom 4:4 when he writes:
“Now to one who works, his wages are not reckoned as a gift but as his due.” (Rom 4:4)

Works done under the law are those done under some sort of legal contract that try to put an obligation on God – to make salvation our due. We try to earn our salvation

If we work, as for an employer, expecting wages as our due then we will be judged under that Law and will always be found wanting and will be condemned.

That is why we can only receive salvation as a gift. It cannot be earned.
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

There is another class of works – works that are not works of the law.
The third definition in Concise Oxford English Dictionary is helpful here –  “Theology, good or moral deeds”

Doing “good works” give us merit in the sight of God because they are done out of love and do not attempt to put God under any obligation to reward us.
One definition of merit from the Collins Concise English Dictionary is:
a deserving or commendable quality or act.”

Note: in Catholic theology, merit means rewardable. It does not imply earn.

When we do something out of love and not as a contract under Law we do a deserving or commendable act and God will graciously reward us.

“love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return;  and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High” (Lk 6:35)

I the Lord search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jer 17:10)
 
Whoever does good has his reward, which each receives according to his deeds.”(Sir 16:14)

We could give examples of these three definitions of work as follows:

1. – Digging my garden (general definition).
2. – Digging someone else’s garden for a wage (work as earning income)
3. – Digging an elderly neighbour’s garden out of charity (work as a good deed and meritorious – a commendable act)

Paul writes: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast”. (Eph 2:8-9)

Whereas James writes: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” (Jas 2:14)

These two are not contradictory if we understand that Paul is referring to works of the law and James is referring to good deeds, meritorious acts, just as in the examples he gives in the following verses:
“If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?”

These are the type of works Jesus refers to in Mt 25:31-45 and Mt 10:41-42

Further, from my examples of digging a garden we can see that it is not the act itself that is good or bad but the cause of the act, the motive. If the act is motivated by love then it is meritorious and God will reward us. If it is driven by other motives (e.g. to get admiration from others) then we may get no reward, at least from God.
 “Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven…….” (Mt 6:1 & following verses)

Finally whatever good acts we do are God’s actions in us not just our own. Catholics believe that grace comes in two kinds, sanctifying grace and actual grace. Actual grace is the prompts and help that God gives us to do good deeds. When we do a good deed it is God working in us.

Or, as St. Augustine said "when you crown our merits, you crown your own gifts,"

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Salvation by Works?
« on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 13:42:36 »

k-pappy

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 14:24:45 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 14:24:45 »

Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 14:43:19 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

In what way have I come up short?

LexKnight

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 14:53:36 »
Winsome, I have a question for ya. This works out of love, is that love of us or is it given to us by God?

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 14:53:36 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 15:13:18 »
Winsome, I have a question for ya. This works out of love, is that love of us or is it given to us by God?

Charity is a theological virtue that is a gift of God that enables us to love Him in return.  We may choose to do so or not do so.  So works out of love are both of us and from God.

The love is first from God into us, but then from this love given freely back to God and neighbor (called good works) or squandered and turned against God or inward (called sin or evil works).

1 John 4
19We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” but hates his brother, he is a liar; for whoever does not love a brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21This is the commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Good works are possible because of God's gift of charity into our soul, and are meritorious of reward (not earning the reward) when they are in accord with the will of God and for the other as other, and meritorious of punishment if they are against the will of God or are done for the benefit of oneself.

Romans 2
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 15:35:20 by Catholica »

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 15:13:18 »



Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 15:28:04 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

How do translators know what words to use when they do their translations, if not the dictionary?

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 19:21:38 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

How do translators know what words to use when they do their translations, if not the dictionary?
Well that's the thing, English is a bastard language because it can change the meaning 180 degrees in only so many years and the definition.
Sick can be now taken by the younger generation as good or great cool ::frown::, where as to me it is never good at all and I will never accept such a bastardisation of the word as it is now today peddled, as it's a work of Satan.

There are many other words that have been tampered with as well nowadays by the Political Correct Nazi's not to mention just foolish dimwits.

Words that the RCC use must be taken as in the definition that the RCC says it is only and anyone who try's to tamper with such is of Satan.
 
One of the big problems is trying to translate the Bible into English because it just does not truly translate that well at times.
Some say the KJV is the only one  ::crackup:: true it's a good English one.
 
We use words like Clouds and the full meaning can be lost of what Bible is truly saying about such things, or the word love is use and it does not truly convey well and the reader is at a lost to the reality of such.

I have people come up to me at work and say just stupid things, like 'are you winning' such is just a hair brain comment to say to me because for one thing I am not a wage earner, I am the contractor.
The question is just dribble by a ninny and it's highly offensive to me because it's a half baked comment by a dill who's comment is not worthy of a reply and if I did have to reply, it would only just be glib to get such a pretentious person to vamoose.

Why I point out such things is that the ignorance of some people just amassing, one dude angered pointed out to me, what winning means, I know full well what he means, but it's rude and down right offensive to my position or he is using cunning to make me out as one of his own, in total ignorance.
Fact is I am not on his level and he does not have my position because such don't have any authority or responsibility's worth jack and such a one is only working to undermine authority and any leadership.
 
I find the same with people doing such with Christianity as they work to destroy the foundations, claiming falsehood twisting the truth for a lie to suit themselves as justifiable before men who don't know any better.

True a lot of people are taken in by the cunning of Satan, if it's to easy it's most likely a lie.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 19:25:40 »
To understand "salvation by works" (which by the way is an incorrect term) one needs to understand how the RCC attributes these "works" towards salvation.

The RCC teaches the following two major points:
1. God cannot declare anyone justified who is not already justified
2. Righteousness is infused rather than imputed

Ad 1 God cannot declare anyone justified who is not already justified

In RCC teaching, God cannot take a person who is not justified and declare him justified, because that would make God a liar and unjust.

When a person dies there are 3 possible destinations:
a. Hell
b. Heaven
c. Purgatory and then heaven

The first thing God does is look at the state the person died in. If he died in a state of mortal sin, then the person goes to hell. Case closed.

Congruous Merit
If a person did not die in a state of mortal sin, God looks at the merit this person build up during his life.
If there is enough merit, the person goes straight to heaven but if there is not enough merit then the person goes to purgatory.
However...there are different types of merit. In this scenario we are talking about the usual "congruous merit".
The other type of merit is treated below.

How long a person has to spend in purgatory is unknown. Some maybe a day, some perhaps a few months, other years or even millions of years.
In purgatory that person is cleansed from residual unrighteousness until the person is completely righteous.
Only then the person will be declared justified, and he can enter heaven.

During that stay in Purgatory, friends and family of the deceased can do works of merit. These merits can be transferred to the deceased so his time in Purgatory is shortened.

The above clearly describes a point system. One can loose points and gain them during life. There most certainly is a notion of "not having enough points".
Now the RCC will be quick to say that it doesn't really work this way. The question "how many points does one need to enter heaven" cannot be answered, and the question "how long will one need to be in Purgatory" can also not be answered.

Condign Merit
Condign Merit is the best merit one can gather during his life time. These are the type of merit that is infused to very pious people and people with excellent acts of faith such as marters.
If you have enough condign merits then it would be injust of God not to grant you access into heaven.


Finally do note that although the above teachings fly directly in the face of Protestantism...even within the RCC these teachings are under continuous dispute. There are many clergy in the RCC who completely reject this teaching by the church and claim that salvation is by faith alone.
This is very strange because it was Luther's claim that we are saved by faith alone that got him excommunicated.

Next post: infusion vs imputation

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 19:52:39 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

How do translators know what words to use when they do their translations, if not the dictionary?
Well that's the thing, English is a bastard language because it can change the meaning 180 degrees in only so many years and the definition.
Sick can be now taken by the younger generation as good or great cool ::frown::, where as to me it is never good at all and I will never accept such a bastardisation of the word as it is now today peddled, as it's a work of Satan.

There are many other words that have been tampered with as well nowadays by the Political Correct Nazi's not to mention just foolish dimwits.

Words that the RCC use must be taken as in the definition that the RCC says it is only and anyone who try's to tamper with such is of Satan.
 
One of the big problems is trying to translate the Bible into English because it just does not truly translate that well at times.
Some say the KJV is the only one  ::crackup:: true it's a good English one.
 
We use words like Clouds and the full meaning can be lost of what Bible is truly saying about such things, or the word love is use and it does not truly convey well and the reader is at a lost to the reality of such.

I have people come up to me at work and say just stupid things, like 'are you winning' such is just a hair brain comment to say to me because for one thing I am not a wage earner, I am the contractor.
The question is just dribble by a ninny and it's highly offensive to me because it's a half baked comment by a dill who's comment is not worthy of a reply and if I did have to reply, it would only just be glib to get such a pretentious person to vamoose.

Why I point out such things is that the ignorance of some people just amassing, one dude angered pointed out to me, what winning means, I know full well what he means, but it's rude and down right offensive to my position or he is using cunning to make me out as one of his own, in total ignorance.
Fact is I am not on his level and he does not have my position because such don't have any authority or responsibility's worth jack and such a one is only working to undermine authority and any leadership.
 
I find the same with people doing such with Christianity as they work to destroy the foundations, claiming falsehood twisting the truth for a lie to suit themselves as justifiable before men who don't know any better.

True a lot of people are taken in by the cunning of Satan, if it's to easy it's most likely a lie.

What also doesn't help is that people today have little command of grammar, spelling and vocabulary.
There is a difference between reading and reading comprehensively, similar to there being a difference between writing and writing comprehensively. I have seen short messages of perhaps 20 lines with more than two dozen spelling mistakes.

How to comprehensively read a book if one has little or no command of the language?

Offline Jsta Babbler

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 20:10:11 »

The first thing God does is look at the state the person died in. If he died in a state of mortal sin, then the person goes to hell. Case closed.

Congruous Merit
If a person did not die in a state of mortal sin, God looks at the merit this person build up during his life.
If there is enough merit,.......
The other type of merit is treated below.

How long a person has to spend in purgatory is unknown. Some maybe a day, some perhaps a few months, other years or even millions of years.
In purgatory that person is cleansed from residual unrighteousness until the person is completely righteous.
Only then the person will be declared justified, and he can enter heaven.
...............

Condign MeritCondign Merit is the best merit one can gather during his life time. These are the type of merit that is infused to very pious people and people with excellent acts of faith such as marters.
If you have enough condign merits then it would be injust of God not to grant you access into heaven.

Just another example of this
Quote
Quote:
Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the very instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use, and feeling also that these usages had originally come from primitive revelations and from the instinct of nature, though they had been corrupted; and that they must invent what they needed, if they did not use what they found; and that they were moreover possessed of the very archetypes, of which paganism attempted the shadows; the rulers of the Church from early times were prepared, should the occasion arise, to adopt, to imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace, as well as the philosophy of the educated class."(Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879, 1878, p351-353)

The Blind  Leading the Blind
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 21:13:08 by Jsta Babbler »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 01, 2016 - 21:21:59 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

How do translators know what words to use when they do their translations, if not the dictionary?
Well that's the thing, English is a bastard language because it can change the meaning 180 degrees in only so many years and the definition.
Sick can be now taken by the younger generation as good or great cool ::frown::, where as to me it is never good at all and I will never accept such a bastardisation of the word as it is now today peddled, as it's a work of Satan.

There are many other words that have been tampered with as well nowadays by the Political Correct Nazi's not to mention just foolish dimwits.

Words that the RCC use must be taken as in the definition that the RCC says it is only and anyone who try's to tamper with such is of Satan.
 
One of the big problems is trying to translate the Bible into English because it just does not truly translate that well at times.
Some say the KJV is the only one  ::crackup:: true it's a good English one.
 
We use words like Clouds and the full meaning can be lost of what Bible is truly saying about such things, or the word love is use and it does not truly convey well and the reader is at a lost to the reality of such.

I have people come up to me at work and say just stupid things, like 'are you winning' such is just a hair brain comment to say to me because for one thing I am not a wage earner, I am the contractor.
The question is just dribble by a ninny and it's highly offensive to me because it's a half baked comment by a dill who's comment is not worthy of a reply and if I did have to reply, it would only just be glib to get such a pretentious person to vamoose.

Why I point out such things is that the ignorance of some people just amassing, one dude angered pointed out to me, what winning means, I know full well what he means, but it's rude and down right offensive to my position or he is using cunning to make me out as one of his own, in total ignorance.
Fact is I am not on his level and he does not have my position because such don't have any authority or responsibility's worth jack and such a one is only working to undermine authority and any leadership.
 
I find the same with people doing such with Christianity as they work to destroy the foundations, claiming falsehood twisting the truth for a lie to suit themselves as justifiable before men who don't know any better.

True a lot of people are taken in by the cunning of Satan, if it's to easy it's most likely a lie.

That's one reason why the Church continues to utilize Ecclessiastical Latin as its standard language for all official documents. Latin is a highly structured language one, and two it is a dead language which means that word meanings don't change.

The Church, being alive lives to make the Gospel known to all generations in a way that they can understand. So while ecclesiastical language may. Not translate directly into English, the concepts can be reforms later so that they do.

My point is that the criticism of winsome for using word definitions in the dictionary to define the word of God shouldn't be treated in the way it was.  It is valid ( if not imperfect) to use a dictionary to define words, because the translator probably did the same thing. Words in the Bible translation have a meaning, otherwise the whole bible becomes useless.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #11 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 01:11:18 »
That's one reason why the Church continues to utilize Ecclessiastical Latin as its standard language for all official documents. Latin is a highly structured language one, and two it is a dead language which means that word meanings don't change.

The Church, being alive lives to make the Gospel known to all generations in a way that they can understand. So while ecclesiastical language may. Not translate directly into English, the concepts can be reforms later so that they do.

My point is that the criticism of winsome for using word definitions in the dictionary to define the word of God shouldn't be treated in the way it was.  It is valid ( if not imperfect) to use a dictionary to define words, because the translator probably did the same thing. Words in the Bible translation have a meaning, otherwise the whole bible becomes useless.

That makes no sense whatsoever!

First of all you are simply replacing the problem.
You translate Koine Greek (which nobody speaks) into Latin (which nobody speaks).
You are still left to translate Latin into English...and you are facing the problems of translations anyway.
But then again, if you want to be as safe as possible why not simply learn Greek instead of translating into Latin?

Besides that your claim does not make sense, it is also not correct.
Translating from Greek into Latin is as "dangerous" as translating Greek into English.
There are many words in Greek that bear a totally different weight and have different meaning than their translation into Latin.

I give you one example that has very much to do with this topic: Justification.
In Greek the word is translated as "dikaios" which means "to regard as righteous, to count as righteous, to declare as righteous".
In Latin the word is translated as "justificare" which is a legal term which means "to make righteous".


So there is a perfect applicable English term for "dikaios"...but because the early church translated it with "justificare" they immediately gave it a wrong meaning.
Hence the difference in interpretation where Protestants impute righteousness...whilst Catholics infuse righteousness.


Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #12 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 03:11:57 »
When you use a book of man to try to define the Book of the Lord, you will always come up short.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts."  --  Isaiah 55:9

How do translators know what words to use when they do their translations, if not the dictionary?
Well that's the thing, English is a bastard language because it can change the meaning 180 degrees in only so many years and the definition.
Sick can be now taken by the younger generation as good or great cool ::frown::, where as to me it is never good at all and I will never accept such a bastardisation of the word as it is now today peddled, as it's a work of Satan.

There are many other words that have been tampered with as well nowadays by the Political Correct Nazi's not to mention just foolish dimwits.

Words that the RCC use must be taken as in the definition that the RCC says it is only and anyone who try's to tamper with such is of Satan.
 
One of the big problems is trying to translate the Bible into English because it just does not truly translate that well at times.
Some say the KJV is the only one  ::crackup:: true it's a good English one.
 
We use words like Clouds and the full meaning can be lost of what Bible is truly saying about such things, or the word love is use and it does not truly convey well and the reader is at a lost to the reality of such.

I have people come up to me at work and say just stupid things, like 'are you winning' such is just a hair brain comment to say to me because for one thing I am not a wage earner, I am the contractor.
The question is just dribble by a ninny and it's highly offensive to me because it's a half baked comment by a dill who's comment is not worthy of a reply and if I did have to reply, it would only just be glib to get such a pretentious person to vamoose.

Why I point out such things is that the ignorance of some people just amassing, one dude angered pointed out to me, what winning means, I know full well what he means, but it's rude and down right offensive to my position or he is using cunning to make me out as one of his own, in total ignorance.
Fact is I am not on his level and he does not have my position because such don't have any authority or responsibility's worth jack and such a one is only working to undermine authority and any leadership.
 
I find the same with people doing such with Christianity as they work to destroy the foundations, claiming falsehood twisting the truth for a lie to suit themselves as justifiable before men who don't know any better.

True a lot of people are taken in by the cunning of Satan, if it's to easy it's most likely a lie.

That's one reason why the Church continues to utilize Ecclessiastical Latin as its standard language for all official documents. Latin is a highly structured language one, and two it is a dead language which means that word meanings don't change.

The Church, being alive lives to make the Gospel known to all generations in a way that they can understand. So while ecclesiastical language may. Not translate directly into English, the concepts can be reforms later so that they do.

My point is that the criticism of winsome for using word definitions in the dictionary to define the word of God shouldn't be treated in the way it was.  It is valid ( if not imperfect) to use a dictionary to define words, because the translator probably did the same thing. Words in the Bible translation have a meaning, otherwise the whole bible becomes useless.
Yes sure they do.

But what happens is a lot of protestants love to reject what the RCC position on the word definition is and love to run to the dictionary definition and in doing that they skew what the true position is that the RCC is truly putting forward.

So when the RCC puts forward what it saying, Satan will work to undermine the position being made by rejecting the definition being used, such just reject it in complete ignorance with no intention to bother or even try to understand at all. ::shrug::
Sounds just like what Satan would do I think.

The hatred towards RCC Christians is mainly insane, Satanic people are just so full of hate that they can't see the truth and to view another Christian in such a way is not Christian at all.

Under the Catholic doctrine what a word represents of a doctrine, is just dismissed and such do not even know what the doctrine contains or is referring to, such demons just push it aside hoping that one will not bother to look into it.

For example the word Americanism ? do people know what the RCC doctrine is concerning it, or how about Fideism or Freedom and even Grace, etc etc as defined by the RCC.
I would like others to comprehend what is truly being defined by the RCC on it's position on all things, not just push an uneducated attack in ignorance on the subject by their uneducated position on such things.

I don't know how many times a prot will say to me, this is what the RCC is about or is it's position  ??? who are you talking to bro ? and when I point out that the position is not of the RCC at all, they just keep babbling on regardless. ::sick::
Not once have they asked me where does the RCC say such, because they just don't want to know. ::doh::

They have come up to me and said the RCC is a works based religion, fact is that's slander. ::cryingtears::

What one needs is a good Catholic Bible, not the rubbish they sell nowadays they are horrible   rubbish, I was shocked when I went to look for a new Bible, I said where is you best Bible, money is no objective. $120 was ok but I could of thrown up when I looked through it, it was dead no foot notes nothing ! I had to hand it back it was just worthless to me.

The one I have is a Catholic Action Edition from 1953 it's truly a fantastic Bible, I don't mind my AKJV but this Catholic one is much better, as it is much more in depth in all detail if one wants to study in depth. 

Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 09:53:21 »
 
To understand "salvation by works" (which by the way is an incorrect term) one needs to understand how the RCC attributes these "works" towards salvation.
 
 The RCC teaches the following two major points:
 1. God cannot declare anyone justified who is not already justified
 2. Righteousness is infused rather than imputed
 
 Ad 1 God cannot declare anyone justified who is not already justified
 
 In RCC teaching, God cannot take a person who is not justified and declare him justified, because that would make God a liar and unjust.

Let’s try to understand Catholic teaching properly not through your distorted lens.
 
In the main Protestant view Justification is a legal process. God declares us sinless and therefore justified on account of Jesus saving actions in his incarnation death and resurrection. He has been punished instead of us and therefore we are declared innocent which is imputed to us. Our sins are like filthy rags (Is 64:6) but we are covered by Christ’s righteousness and so God does not see our sins. Martin Luther likened our justification to a dung heap covered in white snow so that the filth is not visible.
 
This is a very legalistic view and based on the false doctrine of penal substitution. And yes, it does make God out to be a liar and unjust.
 
Catholics believe God really does make us clean and justified with our sins washed away. We are renewed as it says it Titus 3:5-7:
“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

Of course if we are actually justified then we are also legally justified.


 
 
Congruous Merit
 If a person did not die in a state of mortal sin, God looks at the merit this person build up during his life.
 If there is enough merit, the person goes straight to heaven but if there is not enough merit then the person goes to purgatory.
 However...there are different types of merit. In this scenario we are talking about the usual "congruous merit".
 The other type of merit is treated below.
 
 How long a person has to spend in purgatory is unknown. Some maybe a day, some perhaps a few months, other years or even millions of years.
 In purgatory that person is cleansed from residual unrighteousness until the person is completely righteous.
 Only then the person will be declared justified, and he can enter heaven.
 
 During that stay in Purgatory, friends and family of the deceased can do works of merit. These merits can be transferred to the deceased so his time in Purgatory is shortened.
 
 The above clearly describes a point system. One can loose points and gain them during life. There most certainly is a notion of "not having enough points".
 Now the RCC will be quick to say that it doesn't really work this way. The question "how many points does one need to enter heaven" cannot be answered, and the question "how long will one need to be in Purgatory" can also not be answered.
 
 Condign Merit
 Condign Merit is the best merit one can gather during his life time. These are the type of merit that is infused to very pious people and people with excellent acts of faith such as marters.
 If you have enough condign merits then it would be injust of God not to grant you access into heaven.
 
 
 Finally do note that although the above teachings fly directly in the face of Protestantism...even within the RCC these teachings are under continuous dispute. There are many clergy in the RCC who completely reject this teaching by the church and claim that salvation is by faith alone.
 This is very strange because it was Luther's claim that we are saved by faith alone that got him excommunicated.
 
 Next post: infusion vs imputation
 

Another rather garbled and inaccurate version of Catholic teaching.


What happens at death depends on the state of our souls and our relationship with God not on some points system.
 
Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ.” (CCC 1023).
 
According to James Akin (Catholic apologist) the difference between congruent merit and condign merit is as follows:
 
Congruent merit occurs with respect to God when a person under the influence of actual grace does an action which pleases God but which he has not promised to reward. Some times God chooses to reward the act, sometimes not.

The obvious next higher form of merit is one in which God has promised to reward the action. In this case when a person under the influence of actual graces performs the supernatural act, God is not only pleased by the act but he is guaranteed to reward it because he has promised to do so. This kind of merit is known in Catholic theology as condign merit.
 

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:04:38 »
Let’s try to understand Catholic teaching properly not through your distorted lens.
 
In the main Protestant view

HILARIOUS! Thanks for the laugh.


Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:08:52 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:22:51 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:23:53 »
Let’s try to understand Catholic teaching properly not through your distorted lens.
 
In the main Protestant view

HILARIOUS! Thanks for the laugh.

Yes, trying to give a protestant view is laughable as they have so many different views.

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:25:10 »
Let’s try to understand Catholic teaching properly not through your distorted lens.
 
In the main Protestant view

HILARIOUS! Thanks for the laugh.

Yes, trying to give a protestant view is laughable as they have so many different views.

No, you missed the funny.

Buzzed RIGHT over your head. ::noworries::

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:39:15 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).

Imagine that.
God giving Himself merits for something He did.

Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:40:45 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).

Imagine that.
God giving Himself merits for something He did.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:45:12 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).

Imagine that.
God giving Himself merits for something He did.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Just making the point very clear.
Do you think God gives Himself merits?
If not then what makes you think strict merit even exists?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 10:56:24 »
To understand "salvation by works" (which by the way is an incorrect term) one needs to understand how the RCC attributes these "works" towards salvation.
 
 The RCC teaches the following two major points:
 1. God cannot declare anyone justified who is not already justified
 2. Righteousness is infused rather than imputed
 
 Ad 1 God cannot declare anyone justified who is not already justified
 
 In RCC teaching, God cannot take a person who is not justified and declare him justified, because that would make God a liar and unjust.

Let’s try to understand Catholic teaching properly not through your distorted lens.
 
In the main Protestant view Justification is a legal process. God declares us sinless and therefore justified on account of Jesus saving actions in his incarnation death and resurrection. He has been punished instead of us and therefore we are declared innocent which is imputed to us. Our sins are like filthy rags (Is 64:6) but we are covered by Christ’s righteousness and so God does not see our sins. Martin Luther likened our justification to a dung heap covered in white snow so that the filth is not visible.
 
This is a very legalistic view and based on the false doctrine of penal substitution. And yes, it does make God out to be a liar and unjust.
 
Catholics believe God really does make us clean and justified with our sins washed away. We are renewed as it says it Titus 3:5-7:
“he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”

Of course if we are actually justified then we are also legally justified.


 
 
Congruous Merit
 If a person did not die in a state of mortal sin, God looks at the merit this person build up during his life.
 If there is enough merit, the person goes straight to heaven but if there is not enough merit then the person goes to purgatory.
 However...there are different types of merit. In this scenario we are talking about the usual "congruous merit".
 The other type of merit is treated below.
 
 How long a person has to spend in purgatory is unknown. Some maybe a day, some perhaps a few months, other years or even millions of years.
 In purgatory that person is cleansed from residual unrighteousness until the person is completely righteous.
 Only then the person will be declared justified, and he can enter heaven.
 
 During that stay in Purgatory, friends and family of the deceased can do works of merit. These merits can be transferred to the deceased so his time in Purgatory is shortened.
 
 The above clearly describes a point system. One can loose points and gain them during life. There most certainly is a notion of "not having enough points".
 Now the RCC will be quick to say that it doesn't really work this way. The question "how many points does one need to enter heaven" cannot be answered, and the question "how long will one need to be in Purgatory" can also not be answered.
 
 Condign Merit
 Condign Merit is the best merit one can gather during his life time. These are the type of merit that is infused to very pious people and people with excellent acts of faith such as marters.
 If you have enough condign merits then it would be injust of God not to grant you access into heaven.
 
 
 Finally do note that although the above teachings fly directly in the face of Protestantism...even within the RCC these teachings are under continuous dispute. There are many clergy in the RCC who completely reject this teaching by the church and claim that salvation is by faith alone.
 This is very strange because it was Luther's claim that we are saved by faith alone that got him excommunicated.
 
 Next post: infusion vs imputation
 

Another rather garbled and inaccurate version of Catholic teaching.


What happens at death depends on the state of our souls and our relationship with God not on some points system.
 
Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ.” (CCC 1023).
 
According to James Akin (Catholic apologist) the difference between congruent merit and condign merit is as follows:
 
Congruent merit occurs with respect to God when a person under the influence of actual grace does an action which pleases God but which he has not promised to reward. Some times God chooses to reward the act, sometimes not.

The obvious next higher form of merit is one in which God has promised to reward the action. In this case when a person under the influence of actual graces performs the supernatural act, God is not only pleased by the act but he is guaranteed to reward it because he has promised to do so. This kind of merit is known in Catholic theology as condign merit.

On you were so close...and yet got it wrong.
Protestant theology does not make God unjust but injust.
Catholic justification indeed is a legal system. That's why it cannot be true.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 11:20:16 »
Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 11:41:20 »
Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 13:12:55 »
Catholic justification indeed is a legal system. That's why it cannot be true.

Sorry, but you can get away with a claim like that.

It's Protestantism that is the legal system
Under Protestantism:
Justification is legally imputed.
Righteousness is legally imputed.
Jesus paid the legal penalty instead of us.



Offline winsome

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 13:57:41 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).

Imagine that.
God giving Himself merits for something He did.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Just making the point very clear.
Do you think God gives Himself merits?
If not then what makes you think strict merit even exists?

"By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us" (CCC 1708)

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #27 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 17:13:53 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).

Imagine that.
God giving Himself merits for something He did.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Just making the point very clear.
Do you think God gives Himself merits?
If not then what makes you think strict merit even exists?

"By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us" (CCC 1708)

What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

Offline Jsta Babbler

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 17:23:43 »

"By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us" (CCC 1708)

 ::doh::

Col.2:8
 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world,
and not after Christ.

Numbers 21:8
 And the LORD said unto Moses,
Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole:
and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten,
when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass,
and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass,
that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.





John 3:9
Nicodemus answered and said unto him,
How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him,
Nicodemus
Art thou a master of Israel,
and knowest not these things?

Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen;
and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not,
ie:
And Moses made a serpent of brass,
and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass,
that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.



Nicodemus
Art thou a master of Israel,
and knowest not these things?
how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have eternal life.


Nicodemus;
If I tell / explain to you the Earthly things
as in
And Moses made a serpent of brass,
and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass,
that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


and you believe me not,
how then will you believe the things of the Heavenly

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up
:


____________________________________________ _________________________

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
and to present you faultless
before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. Amen.

 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #29 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 17:47:13 »
Winsome, what about strict merit, the merit that AVZ omitted?

 Jimmy Akin again:
"If our actions were equal in value to his reward then what would have occurred would be referred to in modern Catholic parlance as strict merit. Strict merit is what would occur when someone gives to God something of equal intrinsic value to the reward he has promised to give. The trick is, only Christ is capable of doing this since only Christ is capable of doing things of infinite value for God. Other humans are totally incapable of this because we lack the infinite dignity of the Godhead supervening on our actions."

As the Catechism says:
"With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator" (CCC 2007).

Imagine that.
God giving Himself merits for something He did.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Just making the point very clear.
Do you think God gives Himself merits?
If not then what makes you think strict merit even exists?

"By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us" (CCC 1708)

What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

AVZ, do you believe that we are saved because of something Jesus Christ did?  Yes?  Or no?

If yes, then how is that salvation applied to us?  If not, then how are we saved?

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #30 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 18:25:09 »
What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

AVZ, do you believe that we are saved because of something Jesus Christ did?  Yes?  Or no?

If yes, then how is that salvation applied to us?  If not, then how are we saved?

Yes, we are saved by Christ's accomplishments on the cross.
It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed on us. We do not have a single ounce of righteousness from ourselves.
There is nothing that we can bring in that counts to our salvation.
Salvation is applied to us through grace by faith...NOT through justice!

Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #31 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 18:29:39 »
What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

AVZ, do you believe that we are saved because of something Jesus Christ did?  Yes?  Or no?

If yes, then how is that salvation applied to us?  If not, then how are we saved?

Yes, we are saved by Christ's accomplishments on the cross.

In other words, on the cross, Christ earned our salvation.   That is what we are saying, that Christ merited our salvation by his act on the cross - strict merit - which only Christ can do.

Salvation is applied to us through grace by faith...

I think you meant salvation is applied to us by grace through faith.  So you have answered your own question, and reflected the Catholic teaching at the same time.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #32 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 18:41:55 »
What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

AVZ, do you believe that we are saved because of something Jesus Christ did?  Yes?  Or no?

If yes, then how is that salvation applied to us?  If not, then how are we saved?

Yes, we are saved by Christ's accomplishments on the cross.

In other words, on the cross, Christ earned our salvation.   That is what we are saying, that Christ merited our salvation by his act on the cross - strict merit - which only Christ can do.

Salvation is applied to us through grace by faith...

I think you meant salvation is applied to us by grace through faith.  So you have answered your own question, and reflected the Catholic teaching at the same time.

Well, in that case you have no beef with Luther...yet you do because it is the Catholic Church who took offence with Luther's claim that we are saved by faith alone.

You are contradicting yourself because if Christs "strict" merits were imputed on you, or infused in you, then you would have strict merit and you would not have any need for any other type of merit.

So explain to me how it is that you appeal to the strict merit of Christ...yet by it alone you can't be saved?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 18:56:29 »
What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

AVZ, do you believe that we are saved because of something Jesus Christ did?  Yes?  Or no?

If yes, then how is that salvation applied to us?  If not, then how are we saved?

Yes, we are saved by Christ's accomplishments on the cross.

In other words, on the cross, Christ earned our salvation.   That is what we are saying, that Christ merited our salvation by his act on the cross - strict merit - which only Christ can do.

Salvation is applied to us through grace by faith...

I think you meant salvation is applied to us by grace through faith.  So you have answered your own question, and reflected the Catholic teaching at the same time.

Well, in that case you have no beef with Luther...yet you do because it is the Catholic Church who took offence with Luther's claim that we are saved by faith alone.

You are contradicting yourself because if Christs "strict" merits were imputed on you, or infused in you, then you would have strict merit and you would not have any need for any other type of merit.

So explain to me how it is that you appeal to the strict merit of Christ...yet by it alone you can't be saved?

Faith is never alone.  Having faith means you are obedient and love God and neighbor.  We are not saved by some kind of faith apart from works.  When Paul said faith, he meant a living faith, a "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6)

Our salvation was earned by Jesus Christ, and only because he earned it can we have it.  But still there is something that Christ has bound himself to that applies it to us.  Some claim it is to believe, or to profess him with their lips, or to be baptized, or to repent.  There is something we must do in order for Christ to apply it to us.  And it is not by doing it that earns us salvation, because only Christ could earn salvation.  By doing it, (no matter what it is) Christ has promised to grant us salvation because he earned it for us.

That type of merit we call "condign" merit: it is a thing we do that, because Christ has promised to associate applying salvation to our souls through that thing, we come by being actually saved.

If a person needs to do nothing: not believe, not profess, not be baptized, nothing at all, then what you have left is universal salvation, and I hope that you know that that is false.  If we appeal to the strict merit alone of Christ, which exists whether we know of Christ or not, then by that alone either no one is actually saved, or everyone is actually saved, or people are randomly saved or damned based on no reason at all except that God wills them to be saved or damned.

As Catholics we reject that God creates any person whilst willing them to be damned.

LexKnight

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Re: Salvation by Works?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Feb 02, 2016 - 19:04:28 »
Not to mention Luther wanted to remove James from the Canon cuz he had the audacity to say one is not justified by faith alone.

 

     
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