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Author Topic: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture  (Read 25965 times)

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Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2009, 01:07:58 PM »
Many get in one of those two ditches. Ignoring anthropology, geography and history usually gets you stuck in one ditch and too elevated church tradition can get you stuck in the other one.

I think I basically agree with you here, but with a twist.  Yes, history, anthro, etc. can serve as good guides to help interpret Scripture, but that doesn't make them authorities.


True, ideas are not really authorities.  People are.

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Bible is the authority.  Those other things just help us understand it.

With due respect to you Steve, the Bible can't be the authority.  It really isn't in Protestantism, even though you all say it is.   Where do liberals get their authority? the Bible.  Where do fundamentalists get their authority?  The Bible.  Now, if the Bible were truly the authority, how can this be? 

As someone on these boards said, we really pick and choose the parts of the Bible to follow.  The authority is really in those who interpret the Bible.  This is why we have denominations.  Some people interpret the Bible differently than other people.

The key word is "people."  This is why Jesus spent so much time with his disciples.  Note that he gave them (people) authority to bind and loose.   He never says wait until the NT is ready and compiled (this doesn't happen for 400 years).  Instead Paul writes about how Jesus loves the Church.  It is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2009, 01:07:58 PM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2009, 01:16:00 PM »
I have heard it said and believe it to be true...

Sola scriptura is on one hand a fine road to travel that has a ditch on both sides of the road. Many get in one of those two ditches. Ignoring anthropology, geography and history usually gets you stuck in one ditch and too elevated church tradition can get you stuck in the other one. (scripture does not interpret scripture nor does church tradition and exegesis have the same weight as scripture) I have yet to see any denomination have a perfect lock on interpreting the scriptures.


Regarding your last sentence, JohnDB,  doesn't that seem kind of strange?  20,000 denominations and not one of them has it right?  

Quote

(I personally prefer scriptura Primera)

Tossing out all traditions except for those relevant at the time of the writing of the scripture usually does keep a person with a good hermeneutic of scripture.

The problem here is who makes these determinations.  In the Protestant world, each individual person does.  That is not Biblical; it is not the thinking of a semitic group culture.  

It puts too much authority into the hands of a single person, and also helps explain why there are thousands of denominations.  



This is of course our achilles heel.   However, it can also be said that we have a brain and it is obvious that we as human beings are both capable of thinking for ourselves as well as recognizing the falseness of what is being handed down to be accepted without question.  Having someone else set the "rules" for us does make some things easier and more unified at least in terms of externals.  Every group has its external adherants who haven't the depth hoped for by the leadership.  Do we leave our spirituality up to the "experts"? 

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2009, 01:16:00 PM »

Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2009, 01:19:15 PM »
Can tradition and history be helpful in understanding where we are as an institutional church and what the early Christians did?  Yes!
Can one come to a saving knowledge of Christ solely by scripture?  Yes!

I actually agree with you, johnb.  

A priest in our church with a strong Jewish background actually read that NT secretly and it brought him to Christ.  However, this is not the vast majority of us.  

With most of us, we read the Bible already with a framework that makes us interpret its meaning.  Few (if any) evangelists just hand out Bibles (with the notable exception of our Gideon friends).  They tell us how to read it.  There is nothing wrong with this because context helps us to understand what it is saying.

Would you just hand your kid a Bible and tell him to read it?  No.  Why?  Because the odds that he will misunderstand some important point is great.  

Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2009, 01:26:59 PM »


This is of course our achilles heel.   However, it can also be said that we have a brain and it is obvious that we as human beings are both capable of thinking for ourselves as well as recognizing the falseness of what is being handed down to be accepted without question.
Thank you zoo, for your thoughts here.   Reason, however, is what often gets us in trouble.

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 Having someone else set the "rules" for us does make some things easier and more unified at least in terms of externals.  Every group has its external adherants who haven't the depth hoped for by the leadership.

True.  We hope our "rules" will lead to more depth, but there is no guarantee they will.  In our culture, discovering something on our own gives us credibility, but this is just a cultural bias.  

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Do we leave our spirituality up to the "experts"?

In a word, yes!  The only alternative is to leave it to ourselves.   I trust that my church knows better than I do.  We also have a relationship we our priest to make sure we are following Christ in practice, not just theory.

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2009, 01:26:59 PM »

Offline zoonance

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2009, 02:27:35 PM »
and what makes an expert an expert?  if it is more knowledge than me, then it is simply a matter of study.

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2009, 02:27:35 PM »



Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2009, 02:47:58 PM »
and what makes an expert an expert?
Ordination, seminary.  The church is not just the knowledge center.  Paul says in Hebrews that these people watch over our souls.   Younger people can be blessed with wisdom.

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if it is more knowledge than me, then it is simply a matter of study.
Have you ever seen the writings of the Antinicene Fathers?  There are about 40 volumes.  That is why I (and most) depend on other people who have spend more time studying this stuff.


Offline zoonance

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2009, 03:11:41 PM »
and what makes an expert an expert?
Ordination, seminary.  The church is not just the knowledge center.  Paul says in Hebrews that these people watch over our souls.   Younger people can be blessed with wisdom.

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if it is more knowledge than me, then it is simply a matter of study.
Have you ever seen the writings of the Antinicene Fathers?  There are about 40 volumes.  That is why I (and most) depend on other people who have spend more time studying this stuff.




So only the learned can be the leaders, not say, fishermen, tent makers or tax collectors   ::pondering:: ::whistle::

Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #67 on: August 29, 2009, 03:25:46 PM »
Cute, zoo.  No, it is the church that makes decisions about who gets ordination.  And that is a group decision.    They can discern (we hope) by looking at the whole person.

In reality, most of those ordinated are educated, but there are many saints (including modern ones) that aren't.

 

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #68 on: August 29, 2009, 03:46:40 PM »
Cute, zoo.  No, it is the church that makes decisions about who gets ordination.  And that is a group decision.    They can discern (we hope) by looking at the whole person.

In reality, most of those ordinated are educated, but there are many saints (including modern ones) that aren't.

 

Really?

Historical Evidence of Papal Lawlessness

In addition to having erred, many popes have exhibited gross lawlessness as well. One such example was John XII (955-964), whom The Catholic Encyclopedia described as "a course, immoral man, whose life was such that the Lateran was spoken of as a brothel, and the moral corruption in Rome became the subject of general odium...."(3) John was accused of sacrilege, perjury, murder, adultery, and incest, and, on one occasion in particular, was summoned by a synod of fifty Italian and German bishops to undergo deposition. Refusing to appear before the council, he threatened his opponents with excommunication should a new pope be elected to replace him. John XII finally died on 14 May 964 -- eight days after he had been stricken by paralysis in the very act of committing adultery. One of his contemporaries summarized his life with these words: "No honest lady dared to show herself in public, for Pope John had no respect for single girls, married women, or widows -- they were sure to be defiled by him, even on the tombs of the holy apostles, Peter and Paul."(4)
         "Simony," or the "act of buying and selling of the papacy," also became a serious problem. Benedict VIII (1012-1024) purchased the office of pope with open bribery. His successor, John XIX (1025-1032), who was a mere layman, likewise obtained his papal position through monetary means, dishonestly passing through all the clerical orders in a single day. Benedict IX (1033-1045) was thereafter made pope through a bargain with the most powerful families in Rome. Clement II was finally directly appointed by King Henry III because, according to one source, "no Roman clergyman could be found who was free of the pollution of simony and fornication."(5)
         In light of such blatant disregard for moral purity in the lives of so many popes, one might wonder whether Romanists are required to obey such lawless leaders. Amazingly, the Catholic Encyclopedia answers in the affirmative: "A sinful pope... remains a member of the (visible) Church and is to be treated as a sinful, unjust ruler for whom we must pray, but from whom we may not withdraw our obedience."(6) What a mockery such a teaching makes of the Apostle Paul's epistle to the Roman Christians of the First Century, in which he instructs them in the thirteenth chapter to be subject to the "minister of God to thee for good" (Romans 13:4) not to a man who serves only his own wicked lusts and seeks to destroy the things of God (Revelation 13:6-7).

« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 03:57:01 PM by JohnDB »

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2009, 03:54:15 PM »
ONe more section from this lovely book that addresses your earlier quote of what I said there Trifecta,

Infallible Popes Versus the Infallible Word of God

Whereas history clearly testifies to these and many other instances of papal error, lawlessness, indecisiveness, and general confusion, the Roman church nevertheless maintains its position that the pope is completely infallible in matters regarding faith and morals when speaking ex cathedra, or "from the Chair [of Peter]." He can make no mistakes in official declarations of what must be believed by the body of Romanists at large. The Catholic Encyclopedia makes this point very clear: "The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra -- that is in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines... a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church -- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility... and consequently such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable."(7)
         Romanists, like Protestants, claim to receive the Holy Scriptures "with piety and reverence"(8) and insist that "the Bible is everywhere true in the sense intended by the individual sacred writer."(9) It is at this point that the Romanist finds himself on the horns of a dilemma: since both the Bible and papal decrees are viewed as the inspired and infallible Word of God, which of the two possessed the higher authority in the event of a contradiction (which is not an infrequent ocurrence)? Two allegedly infallible, yet disagreeing, sources of revelation both cannot be right; one must give place to the other. This problem does not confront those who seriously heed the Apostle's warning in 1 John 4:1: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." Likewise, in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, we are commanded to "prove all things; hold fast that which is good." How are we to "try the spirits" and "prove all things"? We must do so by the written Word of God alone, as did the Bereans in the First Century (Acts 17:11). The Bible is our measuring rod, or our "once for all delivered" canon (Jude 3), by which all truths claims are to be tested. Without this sure foundation of Scripture, we are only left with our own personal judgments, or those of our fellow men -- both of which are fallible, as we have seen in the preceding chapters and will continue to see evidenced in those to follow.

Offline a cruce salus

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2009, 04:23:49 PM »
Today, we cannot sit at the feet of the Apostles and hear their oral teaching and traditions.  So much time has passed.   Think of the "telephone game" and how a simple little phrase can change from beginning to end in a matter of minutes.  How then can we know which traditions are true?

Where can a Christian today confidently find truth?  God's Word.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

As stated many a year ago ..."Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by evident reason-for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves-I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. God help me. Amen." (Luther)

Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2009, 07:47:18 PM »
Cute, zoo.  No, it is the church that makes decisions about who gets ordination.  And that is a group decision.    They can discern (we hope) by looking at the whole person.

In reality, most of those ordinated are educated, but there are many saints (including modern ones) that aren't.

 

Really?
Really to what?  Our clergy are educated people.  Yours are probably too.   Unlike in the days of the apostles, we now have 2000 years of church history to know.  This involves education.

As for those problem Popes,  I am not Catholic,  I am eastern Orthodox.  We go back 2000 years but we don't have a pope.   We decide things concilarly.  I will admit though, we've had some clunkers along the way.  Such is the nature of man.  But we have, to use modern terms, a system of checks and balances and the Holy Spirit, so we don't go into apostacy.


ONe more section from this lovely book that addresses your earlier quote of what I said there Trifecta,

Infallible Popes Versus the Infallible Word of God


We don't have a Pope and if we did he wouldn't be fallible.

[/quote]
Quote
Two allegedly infallible, yet disagreeing, sources of revelation both cannot be right; one must give place to the other. This problem does not confront those who seriously heed the Apostle's warning in 1 John 4:1: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
You all have not agreed on much "solely" relying on your Bibles either. 

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Likewise, in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, we are commanded to "prove all things; hold fast that which is good." How are we to "try the spirits" and "prove all things"? We must do so by the written Word of God alone, as did the Bereans in the First Century (Acts 17:11).

Did the Bereans rely on Scripture alone?  No, Paul had to preach to them.   Even if they did, their Scriptures were the OT.   So, are you the Bereans.   This is a very weak argument for sola scriptura.


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The Bible is our measuring rod, or our "once for all delivered" canon (Jude 3), by which all truths claims are to be tested.

It is?  The text says it is "the faith" that is delivered once for all.  Did the church have the NT canon in the first century?  No, it was the 4th century before they did.   

Fortunately, we have the church to show us the truth, since it is "the pillar and foundation of the truth." (I Tim 3:16)

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Without this sure foundation of Scripture, we are only left with our own personal judgments, or those of our fellow men -- both of which are fallible,


That include both you and me.  We are not infallable interpretators of the Scriptures either.  Protestantism has proven "this sure foundation" has led to lots of misunderstandings and denominations.

Thanks for reading.


Offline trifecta

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2009, 08:21:19 PM »
Welcome to the forum, a!

Today, we cannot sit at the feet of the Apostles and hear their oral teaching and traditions. 

That's why we have the church.

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So much time has passed.   

So, Jesus's promise that the gates of Hades (death) won't prevailed against the church (Matt 16:18) is  no longer valid?   


Quote
Think of the "telephone game" and how a simple little phrase can change from beginning to end in a matter of minutes.

Ancient cultures (including Israel) actually relied on the oral tradition more than the written word.  It was too easy to forge in those days.  The ancients would have ended up with the same message at the beginning than at the end of the "telephone game." Practices in our culture don't apply to all cultures at all times.

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How then can we know which traditions are true?

The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (I Tim 3:16).

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Where can a Christian today confidently find truth?  God's Word.

Confidently?  The Jehovah's Witness believe in God's Word. Other cults do too.  If God's Word so confidently gives you the truth, why are there 20,0000 + denominations?   

Trite phrases do not replace historical fact.   

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John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

This verse isn't saying, in 400 years or so, God will send down the NT to guide the people.   

I am not saying that we shouldn't read the Bible.   We've (Orthodox church) promoted Bible reading for 1500 years.  But the church gives us the context to understand it better.  While the Protestants argue and divide, the Catholics try to become more modern (Vatican II), we stick to the same faith of the apostles.

Offline a cruce salus

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #73 on: August 29, 2009, 08:28:45 PM »

Fortunately, we have the church to show us the truth, since it is "the pillar and foundation of the truth." (I Tim 3:16)


But which church?   
The Roman Catholic church makes the same claim as you are making for the Eastern Orthodox to be "the pillar and foundation of truth".

Yet they differ in many aspects...

Infant communion - Child communion
The nature of the communion elements
Deification
Divine Justice
Chrismation following baptism - Confirmation as a teen
Purgatory differences
Views regarding the immaculate conception
The filioque issue
etc.

Two ancient churches, claiming to be the "pillar and foundation of truth" ... yet even they do not agree.

Offline a cruce salus

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Re: Sola Scriptura is contrary to Scripture
« Reply #74 on: August 29, 2009, 08:54:14 PM »
Welcome to the forum, a!

Thanks!  Nice to "meet" you.   ::smile::


Quote from: trifecta
So, Jesus's promise that the gates of Hades (death) won't prevailed against the church (Matt 16:18) is  no longer valid?

At it's core, that is, believers in Christ (the church as the body of Christ) exists throughout the world.   Hades has not prevailed.   Man surely has made a mess of Christendom though.   Lord have mercy.



Quote from: trifecta
If God's Word so confidently gives you the truth, why are there 20,0000 + denominations? 

Sin. The devil and his lies.    
Christ prayed we'd be one.    Would not satan want to destroy that unity?

I agree the 20,000+ denomination thing is deplorable.



Quote from: trifecta
This verse isn't saying, in 400 years or so, God will send down the NT to guide the people. 

No but, it does tell us that God's word is true and we can trust it.   It's the interpretation of scripture that is the problem. 


God's grace and peace trifecta!