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Author Topic: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind  (Read 22291 times)

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Offline Catholica

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #180 on: October 01, 2010, 02:31:22 PM »
Since this also applies to this topic Catholica. Just so you know. I do know how quotes work in forum but it seems you don't know how the word of God works in us through the written scripture.

Are you going to quote somewhere where an actual Catholic says that the Catholic Church is unaccountable then, and not simply Josiah and his claims that the Catholic Church says it is unaccountable?

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #180 on: October 01, 2010, 02:31:22 PM »

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #181 on: October 01, 2010, 02:40:54 PM »
Why would I lie about anything Catholica? I saw myself Catholics saying the catholic church is accountable only to itself but I am not going to waste my time looking for those posts.
And I have been watching Josiah and he appears to be an intelligent person not deceived by the little subtle lies and knowledgable in some catholic policies giving references from catholic material that the majority of catholics don't even understand themselves!
Learn how to choose your battles!!! Proverbs 2:1-22

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #181 on: October 01, 2010, 02:40:54 PM »

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #182 on: October 01, 2010, 03:03:10 PM »


Are you going to quote somewhere where an actual Catholic says that the Catholic Church is unaccountable then, and not simply Josiah and his claims that the Catholic Church says it is unaccountable?

.




The RCC itself alone insists that it itself alone is the one authoritative teacher and that it and it itself alone is incapable of error in official matters of faith and morals, and yes it itself alone insists that whatever it so teaches is to be embraced with "docility." 

The RCC itself alone says in the Catechism of itself about itself, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms.

Note that the point of the RCC is NOT that the teaching is true or correct, but that it is to be embraced "with docility" because it itself is teaching it. 

The Handbook puts it this way, "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church which is Christ's Authority."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151).   

Note several very, very important things.   

1.  The Catholic is FREED by the RCC alone from the issue of whether the teachings of the RCC are true!!!  The issue isn't truth. 

2.  And "RATHER", in lieu of that issue, in the stead of that issue, in place of that issue, he "rests" in "quiet" (unquestioning, unthinking) "SUBMISSION" (a power word).  The Catechism says, he "receives WITH DOCILITY" whatever the RCC tells them.   

3.  So, yes, the RCC insists that there is one who is exempted from accountability in official matters of faith and morals, one where the issue of truth is moot, one to be given a "pass" on accountability :  itself.  It replaces the issue of whether it is correct with the issue that it itself alone insists that whatever it itself alone teaches is rather just embraced with quiet, docilic submission.

It itself alone thus just by-passes the issue of correctness (in the sole, exclusive, singular case of it itself alone) and replaces it with the insistence of it itself alone for "SUBMISSION" (a power word) to it itself alone.   



Now, a quote from our brother Ryan:



 
Quote from: Ryan2010

.'m merely saying that we are all true to our tradition regardless of whether or not our tradition is actually true.

.


Note, "regardless of whether it is true...."


Now, a quote from you:


Quote from: catholica

"The Catholic Church is and always has been inwardly self-accountable for doctrine."

.



Note:  "INWARDLY, SELF-accountable"    rofl


What has been the Catholics point in all these threads on accountability?  That the RCC alone has some "unique" status, according to the RCC alone, and this makes it EXEMPT from the accountability that it demands for all OTHER techers. 



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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Offline Catholica

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #183 on: October 01, 2010, 03:07:53 PM »
Why would I lie about anything Catholica? I saw myself Catholics saying the catholic church is accountable only to itself but I am not going to waste my time looking for those posts.

The rules on this forum, if I understand them correctly, suggest that people should bring some kind of substantiation for their position.  If you can't substantiate what you say, and refuse to do so, but still believe it, then you have lost any integrity to your argument.  All you are doing is "stirring up trouble" and frankly I am flabbergasted that the moderators have not banned you or warned you or something.

And I have been watching Josiah and he appears to be an intelligent person not deceived by the little subtle lies and knowledgable in some catholic policies giving references from catholic material that the majority of catholics don't even understand themselves!

I'm a Catholic, and let me tell you, I know my faith way better than Josiah knows my faith.  That's what happens when one chooses the path of submission and docility.  Not only do we learn what we believe but also why we believe it.  It is only possible to learn the why if we are actually allowing ourselves to be teachable, and that requires docility.  The only way that our pastors are going to be responsible for our salvation (Hebrews 13:7) is if we ourselves allow them to teach us, and the way we allow them to teach us is to be docile.

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #183 on: October 01, 2010, 03:07:53 PM »

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #184 on: October 01, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »
Since you like to argue so much Catholica I have one question for you...

Who is there when you are in the Lord's presence?

Maybe this should be in the riddle box because only those who have been in God's presence will answer correctly.

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #184 on: October 01, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »



Offline Catholica

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #185 on: October 01, 2010, 03:35:19 PM »

Are you going to quote somewhere where an actual Catholic says that the Catholic Church is unaccountable then, and not simply Josiah and his claims that the Catholic Church says it is unaccountable?

The RCC itself alone insists that it itself alone is the one authoritative teacher and that it and it itself alone is incapable of error in official matters of faith and morals, and yes it itself alone insists that whatever it so teaches is to be embraced with "docility."  

The RCC itself alone says in the Catechism of itself about itself, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms. .  

Note that the point of the RCC is NOT that the teaching is true or correct, but that it is to be embraced "with docility" because it itself is teaching it.  

The Handbook puts it this way, "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church which is Christ's Authority."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151).

None of these things say that the Catholic Church regards itself as not accountable.

Note several very, very important things.  

1.  The Catholic is FREED by the RCC alone from the issue of whether the teachings of the RCC are true!!!  The issue isn't truth.  

The Catholic is freed, but he is not forbidden for a person to understand why.  I have done lots of learning about why the Church teaches what it teaches, and I still accept it.

2.  And "RATHER", in lieu of that issue, in the stead of that issue, in place of that issue, he "rests" in "quiet" (unquestioning, unthinking) "SUBMISSION" (a power word).  The Catechism says, he "receives WITH DOCILITY" whatever the RCC tells them.  

Submission is not the same as surrender, but you keep acting like it is.  The Bible says that women are to submit to their husbands as the Church submits to Christ.  Does that mean that women are to simply serve, unquestioning, like automatons?  No.  But if you think so, then no wonder you are not married!  Rather, submission means trusting and accepting and allowing that other person to love you.  Without trust we can't have love.  But a wife has the right to understand why her husband is doing something, and to refuse if it is unjust.   The Catholic Church is not unjust; she is ultimately merciful as Christ is merciful, and is really a pillar of justice in the world today.  That is my experience.

I have already seen others try to explain to you the kinship of the word docility and teachability. They failed because you have to defend your platform at all costs.  But ultimately, being docile is what Jesus tells us to do in Hebrews 13:7.  It doesn't mean unquestioning, as you keep asserting, and it doesn't mean quiet.  Those are words that you have inserted into the text that are simply not there.

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

3.  So, yes, the RCC insists that there is one who is exempted from accountability in official matters of faith and morals, one where the issue of truth is moot, one to be given a "pass" on accountability :  itself.  It replaces the issue of whether it is correct with the issue that it itself alone insists that whatever it itself alone teaches is rather just embraced with quiet, docilic submission.

Maybe we are just talking past each other.  Maybe you can state clearly, without rhetoric, what exactly passes for "accountability" to you.

Again, you insert the word "quiet" to support your own platform.  The Church doesn't teach that.  Therefore unless you can prove that they do, then from now on you are not simply misinformed, you are knowingly deceiving, and that is an offense against God.

It itself alone thus just by-passes the issue of correctness (in the sole, exclusive, singular case of it itself alone) and replaces it with the insistence of it itself alone for "SUBMISSION" (a power word) to it itself alone.  

Again, St. Paul calls wives to submit to their husbands.  If to a Protestant to "submit" is a "power word" then I am glad I'm not involved in that kind of marriage.

CCC #86 states that:

86  "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

That means that the Magisterium, which is the teaching office of the Catholic Church, submits itself to Sacred Scripture.  So there is your accountability.

Now, a quote from you:

Quote from: catholica

"The Catholic Church is and always has been inwardly self-accountable for doctrine."

.

Note:  "INWARDLY, SELF-accountable"    rofl

Maybe I chose the wrong word.  I apologize.  It is evident through all historical records that the bishops of the Catholic Church have debated, expounded, and worked together, correcting each other, and with all possible effort, produced doctrine that has been universally accepted.  There is really no other way to run a Church.  Thankfully, the Holy Spirit was promised to this one Church such that they would always be led into all truth and be able to always remember the fullness of revelation and safely propound the true faith.  

Need I post the scriptures again?  One eternal Church, Matthew 16:19, Protected from error, John 14:26, John 16:12-15.

What has been the Catholics point in all these threads on accountability?  That the RCC alone has some "unique" status, according to the RCC alone, and this makes it EXEMPT from the accountability that it demands for all OTHER techers.  

False, that has been YOUR point in all these threads on accountability.  No Catholic really wants to talk about your personal pet peeve issue, which you are incorrect about but since you are neither docile nor humble, you are also not teachable.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #186 on: October 01, 2010, 03:45:30 PM »
Why would I lie about anything Catholica? I saw myself Catholics saying the catholic church is accountable only to itself but I am not going to waste my time looking for those posts.

The rules on this forum, if I understand them correctly, suggest that people should bring some kind of substantiation for their position.  If you can't substantiate what you say, and refuse to do so, but still believe it, then you have lost any integrity to your argument.  All you are doing is "stirring up trouble" and frankly I am flabbergasted that the moderators have not banned you or warned you or something.

And I have been watching Josiah and he appears to be an intelligent person not deceived by the little subtle lies and knowledgable in some catholic policies giving references from catholic material that the majority of catholics don't even understand themselves!

I'm a Catholic, and let me tell you, I know my faith way better than Josiah knows my faith.  That's what happens when one chooses the path of submission and docility.  Not only do we learn what we believe but also why we believe it.  It is only possible to learn the why if we are actually allowing ourselves to be teachable, and that requires docility.  The only way that our pastors are going to be responsible for our salvation (Hebrews 13:7) is if we ourselves allow them to teach us, and the way we allow them to teach us is to be docile.


You constantly and consistently make my point so clearly.   The RCC requires quiet, docilic submission to itself; that whatever it and it itself teaches (formally, institutionally, in faith and morals) is simply to be embraced and given a 'pass' on the issue of whether such is true/correct.  THAT'S WHY IT REJECTS THE RULE OF SCRITPURE IN THE NORMING OF THE DOCTRINES OF ITSELF (exclusively).  IT demands a "pass" on the issue of whether it's teachings are correct, thus norming is rejected in the sole case of it itself alone, says it itself alone.  You are to be "submissive" to it but it is submissive to nothing but itself.  

 
The RCC itself alone says in the Catechism of itself about itself, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms. CCC # 87.  Nothin about it BEING true, only "You just embrace it with docility."  "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151).  As Ryan here put it,  "I'm merely saying that we are all true to our tradition regardless of whether or not our tradition is actually true."  And as you yourself said, ""The Catholic Church is and always has been inwardly self-accountable for doctrine."


Ah, thank you for the powerful confirmations of my point.  While the RCC INSISTS on full, immediate accountability for all OTHER teachers (because Truth matters, God warned us over and over about wrong teachers, and Jesus praised Christians for holding teachers accountable for what they teach), it itself makes one remarkable, absolute, total, stunning exception: ITSELF.  You have been consistently defending this in this thread about accountability and norming BECAUSE it's the whole basis of the RCC's rejection here.  "I demand docilic, quiet SUBMISSION and reject the issue of whether what I say is true - thus, Sola Scriptura is rejected."  You've made your point about why the RCC is exempt from accountability HERE, in THIS thread, becasue that IS the basis of the RCC's rejection of Sola Scriptura.   It's not Scripture it objects to, it's not even accountability it objects to (it practically invented it), it's just that it exempts one from it: itself.






.

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #187 on: October 01, 2010, 03:59:03 PM »
Since you like to argue so much Catholica I have one question for you...

Who is there when you are in the Lord's presence?

Maybe this should be in the riddle box because only those who have been in God's presence will answer correctly.

God bless Josiah. Me thinks they just don't want to know! 1John 5:13

Hebrews 2:8-13
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 04:10:27 PM by Visionary »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #188 on: October 01, 2010, 04:10:30 PM »
I can't find a book anywhere called "The Handbook of the Catholic Faith".   It certainly isn't an authoritative document.  Its not really worth quoting it or taking it literally.  It seems at best an obscure reference and hardly something you can build a case for the word "quiet" from.  "Quiet" is not in the Catechism.  And the Church simply does not require us to be "quietly" submissive.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #189 on: October 01, 2010, 04:22:34 PM »

Are you going to quote somewhere where an actual Catholic says that the Catholic Church is unaccountable then, and not simply Josiah and his claims that the Catholic Church says it is unaccountable?

The RCC itself alone insists that it itself alone is the one authoritative teacher and that it and it itself alone is incapable of error in official matters of faith and morals, and yes it itself alone insists that whatever it so teaches is to be embraced with "docility."  

The RCC itself alone says in the Catechism of itself about itself, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms. .  

Note that the point of the RCC is NOT that the teaching is true or correct, but that it is to be embraced "with docility" because it itself is teaching it.  

The Handbook puts it this way, "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church which is Christ's Authority."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151).

None of these things say that the Catholic Church regards itself as not accountable.

Note several very, very important things.  

1.  The Catholic is FREED by the RCC alone from the issue of whether the teachings of the RCC are true!!!  The issue isn't truth.  

The Catholic is freed, but he is not forbidden for a person to understand why.  I have done lots of learning about why the Church teaches what it teaches, and I still accept it.


Correct.  The Catholic may ASK for clarifications and seek to better understand.  But note what the Catechism so very, very clearly says, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms. CCC # 87.  And from the Handbook,  "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151).  As Ryan here put it, "I'm merely saying that we are all true to our tradition regardless of whether or not our tradition is actually true."

I suspect you understand the reality better than you are hinting (or if you are copy]pasting your points from antoher site, that it better understands this than you seem to be suggesting).  Why is THIS the consistant, powerful, "dig-in-your-heels" Catholic point HERE?  In the discussion of the accountability for the doctrines among us and what best serves as the rule/canon/norma normans for the evaluation of these doctrines?  Why HERE all this huge, bold, powerful, consistent emphasis on the POWER of the RCC alone (according to the RCC aloen), the presumed STATUS of the RCC alone (according to the RCC alone), all this emphasis on SUBMISSION to the RCC alone (as demanded by the RCC alone)?  Is it not for one purpose:  To exempt self from the issue?  "All OTHER teachers of doctrine among us are fully, immediately, passionately accountable for what THEY teach, but I myself alone declare that I myself alone am not; that issue is to be laid aside and rather in the case of me, myself and I alone, there is to be quiet, docilic SUBMISSION."  





3.  So, yes, the RCC insists that there is one who is exempted from accountability in official matters of faith and morals, one where the issue of truth is moot, one to be given a "pass" on accountability :  itself.  It replaces the issue of whether it is correct with the issue that it itself alone insists that whatever it itself alone teaches is rather just embraced with quiet, docilic submission

.

Maybe we are just talking past each other.  Maybe you can state clearly, without rhetoric, what exactly passes for "accountability" to you.[/quote]

We've been alll over this. I've defined it, uses various illustrations - all to no avail but the RCC doesn't permit it (in the sole case of itself).

Read what it says.  "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms. CCC # 87.  The claim is made (over and over and over, for centuries now) that Jesus said to His Apostles, "He who hears you, hears me."  THAT'S what it means by docility. The ENTIRE Catholic epistemolgy is based on SHIFTING the question from the truthfulness of the teaching to the docilic submission to the teacher - essentially by equating self with God.  Read on...

How does it do this?  By stressing (over and over) that Jesus said this to HIS APOSTLES!!!  Then, it itself superimposes its own theory of Apostolic Succession to "connect the dots" to it itself alone.  "Whoever hears the RCC hears Jesus!"  THAT'S the ground of Catholic epistemology.   Of course, there are more than a few problems with that.  1)  It's a falsehood.  Jesus never said that to ANY Apostle.  Ever.  So even if its own theory of Apostolic Sucession were true and even IF it has ANY evidence of such a "chain" back to the Apostles (and such is a pure myth), it would be BASELESS since that was never said to any Apostle; the RCC has been mistating the FACTS for CENTURIES on that point.  2) It would mean that the EO and OO are ALSO unaccountable and incapable of error - thus the RCC would be WRONG to decry all the things it has said about them; in doing so, it is actually denouncing its OWN apologetic.  Of course, there are MANY other obvious problems with it, too.  But the POINT is: self is exempting self from what self demands from all others.   It's ACCOUNTABILITY it rejects in the sole cse of self exclusively and THAT'S why it rejects norming (the evaluating if a position is correct) and ANY norma normans in such ("The Rule of Scripture" - aka Sola Scriptura).




Quote
Again, you insert the word "quiet" to support your own platform.  The Church doesn't teach that.

Verbatim from the Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151.




 




Quote
Need I post the scriptures again?  One eternal Church, Matthew 16:19, Protected from error, John 14:26, John 16:12-15.


Need I point out the OBVIOUS and UNDENIABLE?  

Neither of these verses say ANYTHNG WHATSOEVER about the RCC.

To be inerrantly lead and taught by God does not mandate that we will infallibly follow and learn.  You HAVE read the BIble, right?  Genesis, chapter 3?  how the People of God in the Old Testament were ALWAYS inerrantly lead and taught by God but over and over, they went astray and God held them accountable for that.  There is NOTHING in Scripture that teaches that if God inerrantly leads and teaches, therefore we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow and learn.  You are simply confusing the promise of God to lead and follow with the claims of the RCC, LDS and many cults that self alone infallibily follows and learns.  It seems to always be raied to evade accountability of self.




Quote


What has been the Catholics point in all these threads on accountability?  That the RCC alone has some "unique" status, according to the RCC alone, and this makes it EXEMPT from the accountability that it demands for all OTHER techers

.  

False, that has been YOUR point in all these threads on accountability.  


You've been one of them.  Always countering that the RCC has some special "status" that means whatever it says is just embraced with quiet, docilic submission.  






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Offline Catholica

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #190 on: October 02, 2010, 07:04:49 AM »


Are you going to quote somewhere where an actual Catholic says that the Catholic Church is unaccountable then, and not simply Josiah and his claims that the Catholic Church says it is unaccountable?

.


The RCC itself alone insists that it itself alone is the one authoritative teacher and that it and it itself alone is incapable of error in official matters of faith and morals, and yes it itself alone insists that whatever it so teaches is to be embraced with "docility." 

The RCC itself alone says in the Catechism of itself about itself, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms.

Note that the point of the RCC is NOT that the teaching is true or correct, but that it is to be embraced "with docility" because it itself is teaching it. 

The Catholic Church in CCC #86 teaches that it is accountable to all of God's Word, which includes Holy Scripture.  Your claim is false.

The Handbook puts it this way, "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church which is Christ's Authority."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151). 

"The Handbook of the Catholic Faith" is not an official document of the Catholic Church, but I see that you can't find the word "quiet" in the Catechism, just some obscure book, probably from the 50's, that no one reads.  That's what's called a "stretch".  Official Church documents are handled with more scrutiny than a simple summary of teachings produced by someone who is simply part of the Church.  It might even have a Nihil Obstat, or Imprimatur, that doesn't mean that it is infallible.

Note several very, very important things.   

1.  The Catholic is FREED by the RCC alone from the issue of whether the teachings of the RCC are true!!!  The issue isn't truth. 

2.  And "RATHER", in lieu of that issue, in the stead of that issue, in place of that issue, he "rests" in "quiet" (unquestioning, unthinking) "SUBMISSION" (a power word).  The Catechism says, he "receives WITH DOCILITY" whatever the RCC tells them

whatever their teachers and those authority over them teach them, which is what Jesus tells them to do, Hebrews 13:7.  And you know that YOU added the words "unthinking", "unquestioning", and "quiet".  You are manipulating the Church to look like a cult.  But the simple fact is that the Church doesn't teach that.  Josiah, you are deceiving the faithful into believing false things.  If anyone is deceived by you, you will be judged on that.

3.  So, yes, the RCC insists that there is one who is exempted from accountability in official matters of faith and morals, one where the issue of truth is moot, one to be given a "pass" on accountability :  itself.  It replaces the issue of whether it is correct with the issue that it itself alone insists that whatever it itself alone teaches is rather just embraced with quiet, docilic submission.

CCC #86 says that the Catholic Church regards itself as the servant of the Word of God, that which has been revealed, which includes Sacred Scriptures.  It gives itself no pass on accountability.  IN FACT, the Catholic Church counts itself accountable to MORE than what any Protestant Church does:  It is accountable to: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, 21 ecumenical councils (or something like that) as well as all the things it has previously defined as dogma, which are clearly enunciated and available. 

This is how it worked: In the beginning of the NT Church, there was just the Apostles and the OT.  Jesus had come and revealed a ton of stuff to the Apostles and it was all in their heads.  At that point, the New Testament Church and the teachings of Jesus was entirely and completely Sacred Tradition.  Then, some apostles and those that knew them began to write Tradition down, inspired by the Holy Spirit.  They had councils to define doctrine, and those councils were an effort to put forth the teachings of Jesus through the apostles.  Each council solemnly defined doctrine, and each council after that was accountable not only to Scripture and Tradition but to the previous doctrine defined at councils who were also accountable to Scripture and Tradition.  As time went on, the Church kept building in this same way, each time being more accountable to the doctrine that had been defined before that.   Again and again, the Church was accountable and bound by more and more of its solemnly defined doctrine.

Then the Protestant Reformation came, and Martin Luther in particular decided that he was not going to be accountable to seven books of the Old Testament that had always been used as Sacred Scripture by the Catholic Church.  He also decided that he was not accountable to the Councils or the defined doctrine of the Church, and he decided that he was not going to be accountable to Sacred Tradition.  In effect, he severely LIMITED what he decided to be accountable to, and so Sola Scriptura was created.  And now, you are insisting that we be only accountable to sacred scripture, which you proclaim is the only "norma normans".  This is complete nonsense.  Take a look at the state of Protestant beliefs today: it is complete and utter chaos.  The fruit of sola scriptura is complete and utter chaos.

So your "norma normans" doesn't work.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and sola scriptura has been eaten and it has led to complete and utter CHAOS.

It itself alone thus just by-passes the issue of correctness (in the sole, exclusive, singular case of it itself alone) and replaces it with the insistence of it itself alone for "SUBMISSION" (a power word) to it itself alone. 

This is just your opinion, but I have now thoroughly demonstrated on how it has no basis in reality.  You are arguing against a complete fantasy of your own creation. 

Now, a quote from our brother Ryan:

Quote from: Ryan2010
.'m merely saying that we are all true to our tradition regardless of whether or not our tradition is actually true.
.

Note, "regardless of whether it is true...."

I love Ryan; he is a very charitable and informed Orthodox brother.  But he is wrong in this one.  The Catholic Church is very concerned with truth, and Sacred Tradition is all true.  It is not "regardless of whether it is true..."  His position does not reflect the position of the Catholic nor the Orthodox Church.  Sacred Tradition is absolutely true.  I think he was trying to illustrate a point, and you decided to take it out of context, which I know that you will continue to do since in practice it seems that you are completely unteachable. 

Now, a quote from you:

Quote from: catholica

"The Catholic Church is and always has been inwardly self-accountable for doctrine."

.

Note:  "INWARDLY, SELF-accountable"    rofl

Already debunked in a previous post, yet again you continue to say it.  If you say it again after this, you are deceiving people with this quote, knowingly, and God will judge you on that too.

What has been the Catholics point in all these threads on accountability?  That the RCC alone has some "unique" status, according to the RCC alone, and this makes it EXEMPT from the accountability that it demands for all OTHER techers. 

No, that is not our point.  That is YOUR POINT, and it is completely FALSE as I have demonstrated by this post.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #191 on: October 02, 2010, 07:31:23 AM »
The Catholic is freed, but he is not forbidden for a person to understand why.  I have done lots of learning about why the Church teaches what it teaches, and I still accept it.

Correct.  The Catholic may ASK for clarifications and seek to better understand.

I thought we were to be "unquestioning", "unthinking", and "quiet".  Which is it?  Make up your mind.

I suspect you understand the reality better than you are hinting (or if you are copy]pasting your points from antoher site, that it better understands this than you seem to be suggesting).  Why is THIS the consistant, powerful, "dig-in-your-heels" Catholic point HERE?

I have now posted about the reality.  The Catholic Church defends the whole truth, the whole deposit of faith, which includes scripture but is not limited to that.  That is the Church's job, to be the "pillar and foundation of the truth".  Not the "pillar and foundation of the truth found in scriptures alone".

Quote
Need I post the scriptures again?  One eternal Church, Matthew 16:19, Protected from error, John 14:26, John 16:12-15.

Need I point out the OBVIOUS and UNDENIABLE?  

Neither of these verses say ANYTHNG WHATSOEVER about the RCC.

To be inerrantly lead and taught by God does not mandate that we will infallibly follow and learn.  You HAVE read the BIble, right?  Genesis, chapter 3?  how the People of God in the Old Testament were ALWAYS inerrantly lead and taught by God but over and over, they went astray and God held them accountable for that.  There is NOTHING in Scripture that teaches that if God inerrantly leads and teaches, therefore we have no other possibility but to infallibly follow and learn.  You are simply confusing the promise of God to lead and follow with the claims of the RCC, LDS and many cults that self alone infallibily follows and learns.  It seems to always be raied to evade accountability of self.

Which Church does Matthew 16:19 refer to then?  The Church is called an "IT" not a "THEM".  And the Holy Spirit wasn't promised to lead the Church into all Truth until Jesus came, which negates any argument that errors were made in the OT.  Just because God taught them, doesn't mean they listened.  THIS POINT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH INFALLIBILITY.  We call Popes infallible and still say they sin.  A person's ability to sin and not follow God is completely orthogonal (not related) to their ability to proclaim what has been revealed infallibly.  If it were, then we would have no scriptures, because each book in the Bible is the result of an infallible act, and they were all set to paper by sinful persons.

If you don't know the difference between what infallibility and impeccability is, then you have no business arguing about it.  Sinful persons can still perform infallible acts.  If that were not true, then we have no idea if the Bible is true, because then they were not performing an infallible act, which means that they could be writing error.

Offline Ryan2010

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #192 on: October 02, 2010, 07:55:10 AM »
Quote
Now, a quote from our brother Ryan:

.'m merely saying that we are all true to our tradition regardless of whether or not our tradition is actually true.

Note, "regardless of whether it is true...."

I love Ryan; he is a very charitable and informed Orthodox brother.  But he is wrong in this one.  The Catholic Church is very concerned with truth, and Sacred Tradition is all true.  It is not "regardless of whether it is true..."  His position does not reflect the position of the Catholic nor the Orthodox Church.  Sacred Tradition is absolutely true.  I think he was trying to illustrate a point, and you decided to take it out of context, which I know that you will continue to do since in practice it seems that you are completely unteachable.

I appreciate your handling of this as I wasn't aware until later that he was using my words against others in other threads.  

I was making a point by making a blanket statement that covered all traditions.  We adhere to our traditions as if they are true.   Because not every one or "body" can be right, someone is surely wrong.  However, more often than not it seems that people regardless of being corrected will cling to their tradition even if they have no other reason than self preservation.  

ie. I can't believe such and such a teaching or the faith I represent is no longer true or valid and if that is true then I can no longer be what I am defending.  Because I have faith in my tradition I can not accept anything counter to it and so will, using my tradition as a lens through which to confirm or reject "truths", wind up rejecting what very well may be true.  

I was trying to show Josiah that the very things he rails against Catholics for are found within his own tradition and yet is not fixated on those so-called "docile" to themselves over Scripture.  And of course I am not saying that the RCC is "guilty" but that the things we call traditions of men and the whole "self for self or selves" thing etc. are found in every sect, denomination, sub-denomination and individual.  

I wasn't saying that Holy Tradition is not true and I should have phrased it more clearly.  I did try to expound upon what I was saying several times after Josiah attempted to characterize it out of the context but that came to no avail.  It was too late.  He took my intent out of the comment and fashioned it into a weapon with which he used to bludgeon others with and even did so in my name.  

 ::pokingwithstick::

Yikes.

I do apologize to anyone my comment has effected in a way that is counter to the faith even if I did not mean for my comment to be used in such a way.

And I  also appreciate you explaining that such an "idea" would be counter not only to the RCC but also to the Orthodox.  We are accountable to the deposit of the faith and when one of us slips up or says anything counter to it we should be glad to be corrected.   Thank you for saying that I was wrong.  Such a comment out of context or poorly said is wrong.  

Jude 1:23
snatch others from the fire and save them...

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Proverbs 29:15
The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.



Holy Scripture is not the only "rod" of correction and the reality is that outside of the Church Holy Scripture ceases to be Holy Scripture.  It is only within the context of The Church, not your personal inclinations, that the Holy Scriptures have proper context.


Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the scriptures church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.




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« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 08:02:38 AM by Ryan2010 »

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #193 on: October 02, 2010, 10:00:20 AM »


Are you going to quote somewhere where an actual Catholic says that the Catholic Church is unaccountable then, and not simply Josiah and his claims that the Catholic Church says it is unaccountable?

.


The RCC itself alone insists that it itself alone is the one authoritative teacher and that it and it itself alone is incapable of error in official matters of faith and morals, and yes it itself alone insists that whatever it so teaches is to be embraced with "docility." 

The RCC itself alone says in the Catechism of itself about itself, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms.

Note that the point of the RCC is NOT that the teaching is true or correct, but that it is to be embraced "with docility" because it itself is teaching it. 

The Catholic Church in CCC #86 teaches that it is accountable to all of God's Word, which includes Holy Scripture.  Your claim is false.


Read # 87.

IF the RCC embraced that what it teaches is potentially wrong then it couldn't say it's incapable of being wrong.
IF the RCC embraced that what it teaches is ACCOUNTABLE to Scripture then it wouldn't reject Sola Scriptura.
IF the RCC embraced that what it teaches is ACCOUNTABLE to Scripture, then it would say in # 87 that all are to recieve with docility what SCRIPTURE teaches, instead, to WHAT are all to be SUBMISSIVE?  It alone itsists:  It's it alone.




Quote
The Handbook puts it this way, "The Catholic is thus freed from the typically Protestant issue of whether the teaching is true and rather rests in quiet submission to the Church which is Christ's Authority."  (The Handbook of the Catholic Faith, page 151). 


Note several very, very important things.   

1.  The Catholic is FREED by the RCC alone from the issue of whether the teachings of the RCC are true!!!  The issue isn't truth. 

2.  And "RATHER", in lieu of that issue, in the stead of that issue, in place of that issue, he "rests" in "quiet" (unquestioning, unthinking) "SUBMISSION" (a power word).  The Catechism says, he "receives WITH DOCILITY" whatever the RCC tells them


3.  So, yes, the RCC insists that there is one who is exempted from accountability in official matters of faith and morals, one where the issue of truth is moot, one to be given a "pass" on accountability :  itself.  It replaces the issue of whether it is correct with the issue that it itself alone insists that whatever it itself alone teaches is rather just embraced with quiet, docilic submission.

CCC #86 says that the Catholic Church regards itself as the servant of the Word of God, that which has been revealed, which includes Sacred Scriptures.  It gives itself no pass on accountability. 

No.  It says a "servant" - not accountable to.  What WHAT is that WORD OF GOD?   It's not Scripture.  It is:

1) The Tradition of ITSELF as defined, chosen and interpreted by ITSELF exclusively.
2) The Scripture NOT in any book or in any words but "written in the heart" of ITSELF as interpreted by ITSELF
3)  The Magisterium of ITSELF as chosen by ITSELF among the clergy of ITSELF pleadged to uphold the teachings of ITSELF.
See a common theme there?  The "Word of God" to which it is a "servant" is the one it sees in the mirror.


 

Quote
So your "norma normans" doesn't work.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and sola scriptura has been eaten and it has led to complete and utter CHAOS.

Have you studied the epistemology of the RCC, LDS and the cults?  I think if you do (as I have), you'll see far MORE chaos among those taht exempt self from accountability and instead play the "power card" of "Just embrace whatever I myself alone say with DOCILIC SUBMISSION."   Friend, I agree with my ubercalvinist friend under the Rule of Scripture FAR, FAR more than  the RCC agrees with the LDS under the exemption of self alone from any accountability for what self teaches.




Quote
It itself alone thus just by-passes the issue of correctness (in the sole, exclusive, singular case of it itself alone) and replaces it with the insistence of it itself alone for "SUBMISSION" (a power word) to it itself alone. 


Now, a quote from our brother Ryan: "I'm merely saying that we are all true to our tradition regardless of whether or not our tradition is actually true."  Note, "regardless of whether it is true...."

The Catholic Church is very concerned with truth, and Sacred Tradition is all true. 

The RCC agrees completely with Ryan.  The issue is NOT whether the TEACHING is true but whether the TEACHER is true - the change is from the topic of the correctness of the teaching to the power grab of the teacher, self declaring that self is SO special as to be exempt from the issue of correctness and rather we are to just embraced whatever SELF says "with docilic SUBMISSION." 




Quote
Now, a quote from you:  "The Catholic Church is and always has been inwardly self-accountable for doctrine." Note:  "INWARDLY, SELF-accountable"    rofl

Already debunked in a previous post


Okay.  I think it's "bunk" too.

So, it's accountablility for its doctrines is NOT internal, where/how does this happen?
It it's not a "SELF-accountability," who does it? 
And how does that comply with what the RCC demands that whatever it says is seen as Jesus speaking and jsut go be embraced with docility (CCC 87)?



Quote
What has been the Catholics point in all these threads on accountability?  That the RCC alone has some "unique" status, according to the RCC alone, and this makes it EXEMPT from the accountability that it demands for all OTHER techers. 

No, that is not our point.  That is YOUR POINT, and it is completely FALSE as I have demonstrated by this post.


... then why the constant, endless, perpetual point by the Catholics that the RCC is special, unque, authoritative and whatever it says is to be embraced?  IF your point is not that the RCC is authoritative and thus exempt, why all the point about how the RCC is authoritative and thus accountability doesn't apply?

NOTE the RCC rebuttal to the accountability issue, the rebuttal you have been making so passionately and consistently?  RCC:  "I"m SPECIAL, I'M unique, I don't need no accountability cuz I say I can't be wrong!"  The RCC rebuttal all along as been that the RCC is special, unique. WHY is THAT is sole point?  Because THAT'S why the RCC exempts itself from accountability - it's the whole point of the claim of itself alone for itself alone, to give some basis for substituting docilic SUBMISSION to itself for the accountability it demands of all others.






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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #194 on: October 02, 2010, 10:06:00 AM »
Proverbs 2:16-19  None who go to her will return or attain the paths of life.