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Author Topic: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind  (Read 22304 times)

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Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2010, 03:38:02 PM »


1.  Scripture affirms that teachers are ACCOUNTABLE - and never exempts the RCC.


2.  Scripture examples norming, and examples using Scripture as the rule (a praxis known as Sola Scriptura).


3.  No, this is not an "invention" of Lutherans.  Read the following (JUST A FEW examples, JUST from the NT) - none of which from Lutherans, all from Jesus or the Apostles:  Jesus DID embrace accountability and never exempted The Catholic Church. Scripture affirms accountability for teachers of doctrine. Just a very few of just NT verses on this: 2 Peter 2:1, Titus 2:1, 1 Timothy 6:3, Revelation 2:2, James 3:1, Matthew 13:52, Luke 20:46, Ephesians 4:14.   Here's just 50 examples of where Jesus uses Scripture normatively (Sola Scriptura): Matt 21:42 Matt 22:29, Matt 26:54, Matt 26:56, Matt 2:5, Matt 4:4l, Matt 4:6, Matt 4:7l, Matt 4:10, Matt 11:10, Matt 21:13, Matt 26:24, Matt 27:37, Mark 12:10, Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49, Mark 15:28, Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:13, Mark 11:17, Mark 14:21, Mark 14:27, Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:32, Luke 24:45, Luke 2:23, Luke 3:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:10, Luke 4:17, Luke 7:27, Luke 10:26, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:46, Luke 20:17, Luke 21:22, Luke 22:37, Luke 23:38, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:46, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, John 19:36, John 19:37, John 20:9, John 2:17, John 6:31, John 6:45, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 12:14, John 12:16, John 15:25, John 19:20, John 20:30, John 20:31, John 21:25. There are more, of course, and these are just SOME examples of the praxis from just Jesus the New Testament.  The following examples of the Apostles doing so: Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, Acts 8:35, Acts 17:2, Acts 17:11. Acts 8:24, Acts 18:28, Acts 1:29. Acts 7:42, Acts 13:29, Acts 13:33, Acts 15:15, Acts 23:5, Acts 24:14, , Acts 13:46, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 10:11, Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, Romans 26:26, Romans 1:17, Romans 2:24, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:10, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:23, Romans 8:36, Romans 9:13, Romans 10:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:26, Romans 12:19, Romans 14:11, Romans 15:3, Romans 15:9, Romans 15:21, 1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Cor. 15:4, 1 Cor. 1:19, 1 Cor 1:31, 1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Cor. 3:19 , 1 Cor. 4:6, 1 Cor. 9:9, 1 Cor. 9;10, 1 Cor. 10:7, 1 Cor. 10:10, 1 Cor. 14:22. 1 Cor. 15:45, 1 Cor. 15: 54, 2 Cor. 4:13, 2 Cor. 8:15, 2 Cor. 9:9, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 4:30, Gal. 3:10, Gal. 3:13, Gal. 4:22, Gal. 4:27, 1 Tim 5:18, 2 Tim 3:16, James 2:8, James 2:23, James 4:5, 1 Peter 2:6, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 Of course, during this time, The Catholic Church was not mentioned at all. For anything, about anything, concerning anything, in any context concerning any matter.

Now, where did Jesus or any Apostle say that there is one teacher of doctrine that is exempt from accountability/norming and whatever that one specifically and exclusively says is to be given a "pass" on the issue of correctness and just embraced "with docility" - and that this singular, exclusive, particular teacher is the specific RCC?  





Where does scripture say teachers are accountable and to whom or what does it say they are accountable?


READ the above.




Quote
Now we know that what the law says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God  (Rom 3:9)


No doubt, but does the RCC embrace that?  No.  It has been holding EVERY OTHER teacher fully and immediately accountable - RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW - and not just to God on Judgement Day.   The RCC was doing this LONG before Luther or Calvin was born, regarding, holding, considering EVERY teacher of doctrine fully accountabile, testing them, norming them, evaluating and arbitrating the issue - never hesitating to condemn, rebuke, judge, excommunicate, declare a heretic , even occasionally dispatching the teacher to his/her appointed afterlife a bit ahead of schedule smelling like smoke.   It has been passionately embracing full and IMMEDIATE accountability for many centuries before Luther or Calvin was born.  WE all know that.  It's just that it makes ONE remarkable, stunning, absolute, exclusive, particular, singular exception to this:  ITSELF.    All OTHERS are fully and immediately accountable - right here, right now.  IT however insists that there is ONE teacher that is fully, absolutely, totally exempt - and it is it itself alone, exclusively, particularly, solely.  Whatever IT exclusively says is rather to be embrace "with docility" (ie blindly).  






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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2010, 03:38:02 PM »

Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2010, 02:14:09 AM »


1.  Scripture affirms that teachers are ACCOUNTABLE - and never exempts the RCC.


2.  Scripture examples norming, and examples using Scripture as the rule (a praxis known as Sola Scriptura).


3.  No, this is not an "invention" of Lutherans.  Read the following (JUST A FEW examples, JUST from the NT) - none of which from Lutherans, all from Jesus or the Apostles:  Jesus DID embrace accountability and never exempted The Catholic Church. Scripture affirms accountability for teachers of doctrine. Just a very few of just NT verses on this: 2 Peter 2:1, Titus 2:1, 1 Timothy 6:3, Revelation 2:2, James 3:1, Matthew 13:52, Luke 20:46, Ephesians 4:14.   Here's just 50 examples of where Jesus uses Scripture normatively (Sola Scriptura): Matt 21:42 Matt 22:29, Matt 26:54, Matt 26:56, Matt 2:5, Matt 4:4l, Matt 4:6, Matt 4:7l, Matt 4:10, Matt 11:10, Matt 21:13, Matt 26:24, Matt 27:37, Mark 12:10, Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49, Mark 15:28, Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:13, Mark 11:17, Mark 14:21, Mark 14:27, Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:32, Luke 24:45, Luke 2:23, Luke 3:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:10, Luke 4:17, Luke 7:27, Luke 10:26, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:46, Luke 20:17, Luke 21:22, Luke 22:37, Luke 23:38, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:46, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, John 19:36, John 19:37, John 20:9, John 2:17, John 6:31, John 6:45, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 12:14, John 12:16, John 15:25, John 19:20, John 20:30, John 20:31, John 21:25. There are more, of course, and these are just SOME examples of the praxis from just Jesus the New Testament.  The following examples of the Apostles doing so: Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, Acts 8:35, Acts 17:2, Acts 17:11. Acts 8:24, Acts 18:28, Acts 1:29. Acts 7:42, Acts 13:29, Acts 13:33, Acts 15:15, Acts 23:5, Acts 24:14, , Acts 13:46, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 10:11, Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, Romans 26:26, Romans 1:17, Romans 2:24, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:10, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:23, Romans 8:36, Romans 9:13, Romans 10:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:26, Romans 12:19, Romans 14:11, Romans 15:3, Romans 15:9, Romans 15:21, 1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Cor. 15:4, 1 Cor. 1:19, 1 Cor 1:31, 1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Cor. 3:19 , 1 Cor. 4:6, 1 Cor. 9:9, 1 Cor. 9;10, 1 Cor. 10:7, 1 Cor. 10:10, 1 Cor. 14:22. 1 Cor. 15:45, 1 Cor. 15: 54, 2 Cor. 4:13, 2 Cor. 8:15, 2 Cor. 9:9, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 4:30, Gal. 3:10, Gal. 3:13, Gal. 4:22, Gal. 4:27, 1 Tim 5:18, 2 Tim 3:16, James 2:8, James 2:23, James 4:5, 1 Peter 2:6, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 Of course, during this time, The Catholic Church was not mentioned at all. For anything, about anything, concerning anything, in any context concerning any matter.

Now, where did Jesus or any Apostle say that there is one teacher of doctrine that is exempt from accountability/norming and whatever that one specifically and exclusively says is to be given a "pass" on the issue of correctness and just embraced "with docility" - and that this singular, exclusive, particular teacher is the specific RCC?  





Where does scripture say teachers are accountable and to whom or what does it say they are accountable?


READ the above.

You have provided no scripture that says teachers are accountable and to whom they are accountable. None of the verses you reference say that.

I must conclude therefore that this is another of your unscriptural traditions of men..



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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2010, 02:14:09 AM »

Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2010, 02:15:41 AM »
Josaih,

Let try another approach.

Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2010, 08:25:27 AM »
Josaih, Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?


Of course. that would be true in all things - so that there's no need for laws, historical records, scientific data, etc. - Truth must match He who is Truth.   But, are you thereby insisting that we do away with all laws (including the Ten Commandments) and all arbitration according to it?  Are you hereby condemning the RCC for it arbitrating teachers (even burning some at the stake) according to Councils, Traditions, Scriptures, etc. and not simply according to the Rule of Christ?  And of course, you are suggesting something your own RCC rejects, it has never excommunicated anyone for being outside the Rule of Christ but rather for being in disagreement with the RCC.  


The RCC insists that all be blind (Catholic Catechism # 87 for example) - and just embrace whatever IT (exclusively) says, circumventing any norming, arbitrating, any rule/canon/norma normans; just leave all that aside in the singular, exclusive, particular case of the RCC alone.  Thus, IMHO, with the RCC it IS the blind following......    


Your continued effort to suggest that the accountability and arbitration that the RCC insists MUST be embraced for all teachers of doctrine is to be forgotten for ONE (exclusively, particularly, solely):  the RCC.   Yes, that IS the disagreement between the RCC and all the rest.   The RCC insist that it is NOT subject to any rule -- not Scripture, not Christ, not any - because it alone insists that it alone can't be wrong (in these matters).  It is the insistence of the RCC that what it demands of all others, it itself is absolutely exempt from; that the most sound way to determine if a defendant is correct/true is for that defendant to exempt self alone from the question and process, the defendant alone instead insisting that self alone is INCAPABLE of being wrong if the defendant is self exclusively, as long as that self is the RCC.   We disagree.  







.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2010, 08:35:45 AM by Josiah »

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2010, 08:25:27 AM »

Offline mclees8

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2010, 08:26:22 AM »
Josaih,

Let try another approach.

Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?

It would be nice if we could speak in simple English. Don't you think? ::pondering:: ::whistle:: ::shrug::

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2010, 08:26:22 AM »



Offline stevehut

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2010, 08:28:56 AM »
Josiah, could there be a better use of your time and ministry than to beat the same old horses over and over again?  Your posts are so long and tedious that I've given up on reading most of them.  Not sure this is a formula for success for you.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2010, 08:49:08 AM »
Josaih,

Let try another approach.

Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?

It would be nice if we could speak in simple English. Don't you think? ::pondering:: ::whistle:: ::shrug::

Josiah doesn't understand simple English.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2010, 08:54:39 AM »
Josaih, Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?


Of course.

That bit is the answer to my question.



The following is just rant.
that would be true in all things - so that there's no need for laws, historical records, scientific data, etc. - Truth must match He who is Truth.   But, are you thereby insisting that we do away with all laws (including the Ten Commandments) and all arbitration according to it?  Are you hereby condemning the RCC for it arbitrating teachers (even burning some at the stake) according to Councils, Traditions, Scriptures, etc. and not simply according to the Rule of Christ?  And of course, you are suggesting something your own RCC rejects, it has never excommunicated anyone for being outside the Rule of Christ but rather for being in disagreement with the RCC.  


The RCC insists that all be blind (Catholic Catechism # 87 for example) - and just embrace whatever IT (exclusively) says, circumventing any norming, arbitrating, any rule/canon/norma normans; just leave all that aside in the singular, exclusive, particular case of the RCC alone.  Thus, IMHO, with the RCC it IS the blind following......    


Your continued effort to suggest that the accountability and arbitration that the RCC insists MUST be embraced for all teachers of doctrine is to be forgotten for ONE (exclusively, particularly, solely):  the RCC.   Yes, that IS the disagreement between the RCC and all the rest.   The RCC insist that it is NOT subject to any rule -- not Scripture, not Christ, not any - because it alone insists that it alone can't be wrong (in these matters).  It is the insistence of the RCC that what it demands of all others, it itself is absolutely exempt from; that the most sound way to determine if a defendant is correct/true is for that defendant to exempt self alone from the question and process, the defendant alone instead insisting that self alone is INCAPABLE of being wrong if the defendant is self exclusively, as long as that self is the RCC.   We disagree.  







.


I suppose it's a bit pointless of me to ask why you do this Joasiah. It would only elucidate yet more screen pollution.







But to go back to your answer.

You agree that Jesus Christ is the norma normans non normata. So why do you insist that Jesus norms himself to scripture when he is the norm above scripture?

The simple answer is that he doesn't. But you don't go in for simple answers.

Cue for you to blow off another rant.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2010, 09:01:02 AM »


1.  Scripture affirms that teachers are ACCOUNTABLE - and never exempts the RCC.


2.  Scripture examples norming, and examples using Scripture as the rule (a praxis known as Sola Scriptura).


3.  Read the following (JUST A FEW examples, JUST from the NT) - none of which from Lutherans, all from Jesus or the Apostles:  Jesus DID embrace accountability and never exempted The Catholic Church. Scripture affirms accountability for teachers of doctrine. Just a very few of just NT verses on this: 2 Peter 2:1, Titus 2:1, 1 Timothy 6:3, Revelation 2:2, James 3:1, Matthew 13:52, Luke 20:46, Ephesians 4:14.   Here's just 50 examples of where Jesus uses Scripture normatively (Sola Scriptura): Matt 21:42 Matt 22:29, Matt 26:54, Matt 26:56, Matt 2:5, Matt 4:4l, Matt 4:6, Matt 4:7l, Matt 4:10, Matt 11:10, Matt 21:13, Matt 26:24, Matt 27:37, Mark 12:10, Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49, Mark 15:28, Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:13, Mark 11:17, Mark 14:21, Mark 14:27, Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:32, Luke 24:45, Luke 2:23, Luke 3:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:10, Luke 4:17, Luke 7:27, Luke 10:26, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:46, Luke 20:17, Luke 21:22, Luke 22:37, Luke 23:38, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:46, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, John 19:36, John 19:37, John 20:9, John 2:17, John 6:31, John 6:45, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 12:14, John 12:16, John 15:25, John 19:20, John 20:30, John 20:31, John 21:25. There are more, of course, and these are just SOME examples of the praxis from just Jesus the New Testament.  The following examples of the Apostles doing so: Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, Acts 8:35, Acts 17:2, Acts 17:11. Acts 8:24, Acts 18:28, Acts 1:29. Acts 7:42, Acts 13:29, Acts 13:33, Acts 15:15, Acts 23:5, Acts 24:14, , Acts 13:46, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 10:11, Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, Romans 26:26, Romans 1:17, Romans 2:24, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:10, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:23, Romans 8:36, Romans 9:13, Romans 10:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:26, Romans 12:19, Romans 14:11, Romans 15:3, Romans 15:9, Romans 15:21, 1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Cor. 15:4, 1 Cor. 1:19, 1 Cor 1:31, 1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Cor. 3:19 , 1 Cor. 4:6, 1 Cor. 9:9, 1 Cor. 9;10, 1 Cor. 10:7, 1 Cor. 10:10, 1 Cor. 14:22. 1 Cor. 15:45, 1 Cor. 15: 54, 2 Cor. 4:13, 2 Cor. 8:15, 2 Cor. 9:9, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 4:30, Gal. 3:10, Gal. 3:13, Gal. 4:22, Gal. 4:27, 1 Tim 5:18, 2 Tim 3:16, James 2:8, James 2:23, James 4:5, 1 Peter 2:6, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 Of course, during this time, The Catholic Church was not mentioned at all. For anything, about anything, concerning anything, in any context concerning any matter.

Now, where did Jesus or any Apostle say that there is one teacher of doctrine that is exempt from accountability/norming and whatever that one specifically and exclusively says is to be given a "pass" on the issue of correctness and just embraced "with docility" - and that this singular, exclusive, particular teacher is the specific RCC?  





Where does scripture say teachers are accountable and to whom or what does it say they are accountable?


READ the above.

You have provided no scripture that says teachers are accountable and to whom they are accountable. None of the verses you reference say that.




READ the Scriptures.   Teachers are held accountable.  NONE is exempt from such because self alone declares that self alone is (the rubric of the RCC).


Where is the Scripture that says the RCC (exclusively, absolutely, particularly) is exempt from accountability and whatever IT and IT itself exclusively says is rather just to be accepted blindly, "with docility?"   Ah, you have none.


2 Peter 2:1,  "False teachers arise among people...."   IF there are false teachers, then obviously they shouldn't be exempt from accountability/norming.  Over and over and over, in OT and NT, we are warned to beware of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists and those that lead many astray, that requires that they be accountable for what they teach, otherwise we would not to told to beware of them but rather to embrace whatever is said "with docility" as the RCC insists (in the singular case of itself alone).


Titus 2:1, "Teach what is in accord with sound doctrine."   IE, what is normed with sound doctrine.   The teacher is accountable.  Where does this verse say, "But the RCC is exempt, whatever it and it itself exclusively says is just to be embraced"?


1 Timothy 6:3, "If anyone teaches a different doctrine than the words of our Lord Jesus Christ...."  ALL teachers are accountable, here to the words of Jesus (not the teaching of the RCC or LDS or Jim Jones or Martin Luther or Pope Benedict).  Where does it say the RCC exclusively, particularly, solely, absolutely is exempt from this?


Revelation 2:2
, "I know that you test those who teach and have found them to be false."   Jesus praises people for doing what the RCC says must not be done.


James 3:1, "We who teach will be judged...."   No exemptions!   Not, "A defendant is exempt from accountability if the self same alone so exempts the self same alone."


Luke 20:46, "Beware of the scribes....."   Not, "Just wave accountability for what they say and do and embrace WHATEVER with docility"  Contrast this (and MUCH of Scripture) with the demand for blind, docilic embrace that the RCC demands for whatever the RCC teaches (in these matters).  Not only is the RCC insistence without any biblical substantiation, but it is contrary to what Scripture tells us (as well as what we should learn from the cults).  


Ephesians 4:14
,  "Do NOT be children, tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, by men who are cunning in deceitful schemes."   We are not to be gullible, docilic CHILDREN who just "buy" whatever they are told by someone/something that claims self to to correct.  We are to be on guard against "deceitful SCHEMES" (such as, "All used car salesmen are to be carefully considered and held accountable - but there is ONE absolute, individual, singular, specific, particular exception - and that one is me."  



Now, do you want examples of where Jesus and the Apostles do this?   And use Scripture as the Rule in such?   Here you go:   Matt 21:42 Matt 22:29, Matt 26:54, Matt 26:56, Matt 2:5, Matt 4:4l, Matt 4:6, Matt 4:7l, Matt 4:10, Matt 11:10, Matt 21:13, Matt 26:24, Matt 27:37, Mark 12:10, Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49, Mark 15:28, Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:13, Mark 11:17, Mark 14:21, Mark 14:27, Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:32, Luke 24:45, Luke 2:23, Luke 3:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:10, Luke 4:17, Luke 7:27, Luke 10:26, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:46, Luke 20:17, Luke 21:22, Luke 22:37, Luke 23:38, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:46, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, John 19:36, John 19:37, John 20:9, John 2:17, John 6:31, John 6:45, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 12:14, John 12:16, John 15:25, John 19:20, John 20:30, John 20:31, John 21:25.  Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, Acts 8:35, Acts 17:2, Acts 17:11. Acts 8:24, Acts 18:28, Acts 1:29. Acts 7:42, Acts 13:29, Acts 13:33, Acts 15:15, Acts 23:5, Acts 24:14, , Acts 13:46, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 10:11, Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, Romans 26:26, Romans 1:17, Romans 2:24, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:10, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:23, Romans 8:36, Romans 9:13, Romans 10:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:26, Romans 12:19, Romans 14:11, Romans 15:3, Romans 15:9, Romans 15:21, 1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Cor. 15:4, 1 Cor. 1:19, 1 Cor 1:31, 1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Cor. 3:19 , 1 Cor. 4:6, 1 Cor. 9:9, 1 Cor. 9;10, 1 Cor. 10:7, 1 Cor. 10:10, 1 Cor. 14:22. 1 Cor. 15:45, 1 Cor. 15: 54, 2 Cor. 4:13, 2 Cor. 8:15, 2 Cor. 9:9, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 4:30, Gal. 3:10, Gal. 3:13, Gal. 4:22, Gal. 4:27, 1 Tim 5:18, 2 Tim 3:16, James 2:8, James 2:23, James 4:5, 1 Peter 2:6, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 Of course, during this time, The Catholic Church was not mentioned at all. For anything, about anything, concerning anything, in any context concerning any matter.  NOTHING about how all this is just to be waved in the singular, exclusive, singular, particular, sole case of the RCC alone.









.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2010, 09:16:48 AM »
Josaih, Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?


Of course.

That bit is the answer to my question.



The following is just rant.



that would be true in all things - so that there's no need for laws, historical records, scientific data, etc. - Truth must match He who is Truth.   But, are you thereby insisting that we do away with all laws (including the Ten Commandments) and all arbitration according to it?  Are you hereby condemning the RCC for it arbitrating teachers (even burning some at the stake) according to Councils, Traditions, Scriptures, etc. and not simply according to the Rule of Christ?  And of course, you are suggesting something your own RCC rejects, it has never excommunicated anyone for being outside the Rule of Christ but rather for being in disagreement with the RCC.  


The RCC insists that all be blind (Catholic Catechism # 87 for example) - and just embrace whatever IT (exclusively) says, circumventing any norming, arbitrating, any rule/canon/norma normans; just leave all that aside in the singular, exclusive, particular case of the RCC alone.  Thus, IMHO, with the RCC it IS the blind following......    

.  



You agree that Jesus Christ is the norma normans non normata. So why do you insist that Jesus norms himself to scripture when he is the norm above scripture?

READ what I said.



Quote
So why do you insist that Jesus norms himself to scripture when he is the norm above scripture?

The simple answer is that he doesn't. But you don't go in for simple answers.


You seem to be reversing our positions.   I'm the one taking the position that the teachers among us are accountable, you agree but you submit to the RCC's insistence that there is ONE unique, exclusive, particular, singular, absolute exception:  itself. 

You asked for where Scripture indicates that teachers of doctrine are accountable.  I gave it, you ignored it.
You asked for where Jesus and the Apostles embrace this accountability and how they use Scripture as the norm.  I gave some examples, you ignored it. 

I agree, it's rather stunning that not even Jesus - GOD incarnate in the flesh, NOT a human teacher among us - doesn't even do what the RCC does, exempt self exclusively from accountability.  But I don't know how your point that the RCC does more than Jesus helps your case.  I gave you the 50+ times Jesus uses the Rule of Scripture - in most cases for His own teaching!   



Now, where is the Scripture that says, "but there is ONE singular, particular, exclusive, absolute, unique, exception - the RCC, IT gets a "pass" on all this and whatever IT says is just to be embraced with docility."   We've seen where accountability is embrace "for everyone" but where is it stated that the RCC is the singular exception?



Ah, but you continue to make my point:   The RCC rejection of Sola Scriptura is simply that it exempts itself from accountability.  You are TRYING to justify that double standard, that 180 that the RCC makes, but you are simply verifying my point that that IS the basis of its rejection:  it exempts itself from accountability, thus norming - to ANY norma normans.  It insists that whatever it says just be embraced "with docility" (CCC 87 for example), with "blindness" (the issue of this thread.






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Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2010, 09:40:55 AM »
Quote from: winsome
Josaih, Would you not agree that the norma normans non normata is Jesus Christ himself?

Quote from: Josiah
Of course.

Quote from: winsome
You agree that Jesus Christ is the norma normans non normata. So why do you insist that Jesus norms himself to scripture when he is the norm above scripture?

Quote from: Josiah
READ what I said.

Josaih,

It's very difficult to extract an answer to a question from a load of anti-catholic verbiage.

Please can you just give a straight and simple answer to the question

why do you insist that Jesus norms himself to scripture when he is the norm above scripture?




Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2010, 09:42:38 AM »
You asked for where Scripture indicates that teachers of doctrine are accountable.  I gave it, you ignored it.
You asked for where Jesus and the Apostles embrace this accountability and how they use Scripture as the norm.  I gave some examples, you ignored it. 



No I haven't ignored it. I just haven't got to answering it yet.

Offline winsome

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2010, 10:29:42 AM »


Now, do you want examples of where Jesus and the Apostles do this?   And use Scripture as the Rule in such?   Here you go:   Matt 21:42 Matt 22:29, Matt 26:54, Matt 26:56, Matt 2:5, Matt 4:4l, Matt 4:6, Matt 4:7l, Matt 4:10, Matt 11:10, Matt 21:13, Matt 26:24, Matt 27:37, Mark 12:10, Mark 12:24, Mark 14:49, Mark 15:28, Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:13, Mark 11:17, Mark 14:21, Mark 14:27, Luke 4:21, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:32, Luke 24:45, Luke 2:23, Luke 3:4, Luke 4:4, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:10, Luke 4:17, Luke 7:27, Luke 10:26, Luke 18:31, Luke 19:46, Luke 20:17, Luke 21:22, Luke 22:37, Luke 23:38, Luke 24:44, Luke 24:46, John 2:22, John 5:39, John 7:38, John 7:42, John 10:35, John 13:18, John 17:12, John 19:24, John 19:36, John 19:37, John 20:9, John 2:17, John 6:31, John 6:45, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 12:14, John 12:16, John 15:25, John 19:20, John 20:30, John 20:31, John 21:25.  Acts 1:16, Acts 8:32, Acts 8:35, Acts 17:2, Acts 17:11. Acts 8:24, Acts 18:28, Acts 1:29. Acts 7:42, Acts 13:29, Acts 13:33, Acts 15:15, Acts 23:5, Acts 24:14, , Acts 13:46, Romans 1:2, Romans 4:3, Romans 10:11, Romans 11:2, Romans 15:4, Romans 26:26, Romans 1:17, Romans 2:24, Romans 3:4, Romans 3:10, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:23, Romans 8:36, Romans 9:13, Romans 10:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:26, Romans 12:19, Romans 14:11, Romans 15:3, Romans 15:9, Romans 15:21, 1 Cor. 15:3, 1 Cor. 15:4, 1 Cor. 1:19, 1 Cor 1:31, 1 Cor. 2:9, 1 Cor. 3:19 , 1 Cor. 4:6, 1 Cor. 9:9, 1 Cor. 9;10, 1 Cor. 10:7, 1 Cor. 10:10, 1 Cor. 14:22. 1 Cor. 15:45, 1 Cor. 15: 54, 2 Cor. 4:13, 2 Cor. 8:15, 2 Cor. 9:9, Gal. 3:8, Gal. 3:22, Gal. 4:30, Gal. 3:10, Gal. 3:13, Gal. 4:22, Gal. 4:27, 1 Tim 5:18, 2 Tim 3:16, James 2:8, James 2:23, James 4:5, 1 Peter 2:6, 1 Peter 1:16, 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16 Of course, during this time, The Catholic Church was not mentioned at all. For anything, about anything, concerning anything, in any context concerning any matter.  NOTHING about how all this is just to be waved in the singular, exclusive, singular, particular, sole case of the RCC alone.[/size]




Josiah,

You are confusing the use of scripture with norming to scripture alone.

Take just the first of your examples

Mt 21:24
Jesus said to them, “Did you never read in the scriptures:
    ‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone;
    by the Lord has this been done,
    and it is wonderful in our eyes’?


Jesus quotes from scripture. But then look at how he follows on from this in the next two verses:
Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.  The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.
What he says does not follow from the quote. There is nothing in the quote about the kingdom of God being taken away or being dashed to pieces on a rock.
Jesus is not norming his teaching to scripture.



Jesus uses scripture but uses it to make new statements that go well beyond scripture, You cannot therefore claim that he norms his teaching to scripture.

Let me take two examples.

Mt 5:27-28
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’  But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus quotes scripture but then goes beyond scripture to a new teaching. The "I say to you" clearly indicates he is teaching from his authority not from scripture.
If you say he norms his teaching to scripture then where in the OT does it say that looking at a woman with lust is committing adultery in his heart?


Here is another example:
Mark 12:18-25
Some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him and put this question to him,  saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us, ‘If someone’s brother dies, leaving a wife but no child, his brother must take the wife and raise up descendants for his brother.’  Now there were seven brothers. The first married a woman and died, leaving no descendants.  So the second married her and died, leaving no descendants, and the third likewise.  And the seven left no descendants. Last of all the woman also died. the resurrection (when they arise) whose wife will she be? For all seven had been married to her.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2010, 07:21:53 AM »
]READ the Scriptures.   Teachers are held accountable.  NONE is exempt from such because self alone declares that self alone is (the rubric of the RCC).




The Church is not self appointed.  Jesus started a Church, not multiple denominations.  Unity in the fullness of Truth is not possible in multiple contradictory denominations.

Matt 16
18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


The Church has authority because it was given authority by Jesus.

Acts 15
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

Offline BondServant

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Re: Sola scriptura: what happens when the blind leads the blind
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2010, 07:36:50 AM »
ummm, the church is not an organization.

It is not a building.

It is the body of believers.  It is people who follow Jesus Christ and have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior.

bond