GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: Strange fire........Blasphemy  (Read 2161 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Texas Conservative

  • 1st Day Texas Conservativite
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8700
  • Manna: 359
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #35 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 16:13:18 »
Once again, I am unswayed by anecdotal evidence.

I am a skeptical non-cessationist.  I don't want to place an artificial limit on God's power but I am especially skeptical of Charismatic leaders.


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #35 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 16:13:18 »

Online Texas Conservative

  • 1st Day Texas Conservativite
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8700
  • Manna: 359
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #36 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 16:15:41 »
Avz...   Your false allegations and assumptions towards me really hinder any discussion with you.   

 I won't sit and answer to every false accusation you made.  First of all, if you were not there, nothing you said can be attributed as fact.  I never claimed there were mass groups of people breaking out in tongues at the same time.  Nor did I say there was no interpretation.  False accusation. 

And yes, I know what the gift of Tongues is for....  you falsely assumed I don't.

As to people spending time in the presence of God seeking Him for guidance, waiting upon Him...   that is biblical.  I'm sorry you missed that.  Perhaps you will remember a group who waited 120 days in the upper room for the Holy Spirit?  They were praying and seeking God.  And He came upon them I a mighty way. 

That is all I am saying..  People want God, they say they want the gifts, and to hear from God, or to have clear guidance, but they are not willing to spend the time with Him that He may require of them.  People want to just run to church... have a pat service and go home.  Seeking God entails so much more from us than that. 

Please stop with the false assumption that you know it all about someone.  It doesn't really matter to me what you are OK with in my relationship with God.  I fully believe the Gifts of the Spirit are here for the body....  they just have ceased to seek them in earnest for the body.  They are content to pew sit and go home.

You are also spewing your own false assumptions.  You assume that those who don't believe as you do "are content to pew sit and go home."  There are those that "want to just run to church...have a pat service and go home."  Of course.  But not all non-Charismatics are like that, and you assume falsely that if they "are not willing to spend the time with Him that He may require of them," if they do not see the gifts like you do.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #36 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 16:15:41 »

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Manna: 346
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #37 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 17:35:42 »
tongues is God speaking to God based on what people believe. You don't even know what ur saying, how you don't know ur speaking a language of demons or something? how you know ur not cursing God in ancient hebrew? Because you just know? Because God is on yourside? No real evidence that you aren't besides '' I just know'' Or ''I can feel it''.They are supposed to be a sign not for the believer but for an unbeliever, if you go into another denomination,religion, country, etc and they start babbling are you gunna think thats from God or their just crazy and babbling. So how is that a sign to an unbeliever, no if someone of another tounge comes in and heres you speaking in their tongue then that would be a sign to that unbeliever, in fact they'd prolly reject the church if everyone was babbling in some language nobody new about or could intepret ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Besides there should only be 2 or 3 and an interpretor at that. That in itself was enough for me to realize that the tounges in the bible aren't the same thing that we see today.
Are you sure you are only seventeen? This is very good reasoning within the scriptures.  Texas Conservative said:
Quote
I don't want to place an artificial limit on God's power but I am especially skeptical of Charismatic leaders.
Agreed~I have never spoken in tongues, and have a hard times speaking proper English, a language that I know! I am very skeptical of many who claim such a gift, more so, when I consider their gospel that that preach and believe in! 
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 17:38:36 by RB »

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #38 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 21:25:32 »
You may feel that way, but I disagree. My diversions are simply responses to her answers.
At least you admit they are diversions.  That puts you ahead of most.  ::nodding::

1) John is greatly deceived by his idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today and is risking committing the sin of blaspheming the HS if he hasn't already.

So, we've already established he is a well known cessationist.  Well I agree with TC that cessationism does not automatically equate to calling the gifts acts of Satan, there is always the risk of crossing that line.  I think chosenone is good here.

2) He and other like him are attributing the working of the HS to the enemy, what other conclusion is there?
I have seen him comparing the gifts to pagan rituals.  The only way for me to find a direct quote to support this is to buy his books and I simply not willing to give him any of my money.  Like I said above, given some of the things he has admitted to and been quoted to say, this is not a stretch.  In fact, it is a stretch to rationalize his remarks and claim he is saying something else.  I'll give this one a so-so.  There has been no evidence presented and in order to gather that evidence I need to spend money on something I am not willing to.  I won't cede the point, but  I won't press it either.  Let's just say he runs the risk of crossing that line and leave it at that.

3) Its laughable that anyone should believe that tongues, prophecy and healings are not for today, when billions of believers world wide use these gifts daily..."
I am pretty sure this falls under hyperbole.  I do not think she is being literal, but using "billions" to denote a lot of people, but I will let her speak to that.

McArthur, and all other cessationists only claim that SOME of the gifts have ceased. And there is good ground for it because speaking in tongues and healing are NOT happening today the same way they were exercised in the New Testament.

Why some gifts and not others?  It must be an all or nothing thing.  Either gifts of the Spirit have ceased or they have not.  Where is the scripture to support this statement?

When you step into a charismatic church and people speak in tongues, when was the last time you saw it being translated?

And when was the last time you sew a healer who claims to have the apostolic gift of healing growing back limbs?

Sure you can call these strawman agruments, but the fact is they drill right into the core of the matter.
Why is it so hard for charismatics to give some straight examples for the gift of healing? After all there are billions of believers doing things like this every day.
And why do charismatics always seem to pick to "easy" gift of speaking in tongues? Is it because it can be faked so easily? After all, if noone can prove you are not speaking a language...then how could anyone possibly accuse you of faking one.

Those are straw man arguments.  I'm glad to see you admit it.  Like said, it's an all or nothing deal.

Please provide scriptures to support your opinion.

Bond,

First of all I am not admitting I am making deliberate diversions from the topic. What i am saying is that the diversions from the topic are there because i am replying to Chosenone's responses.
Yes we are moving away from the main topic, I am well aware of that, but they are for arguments sake and not to set up strawman arguments.

With regards to those strawman arguments; we have a claim by Chosenone that insinuate that McArthus (and like minded) are assigning all gifts of the Spirit to Satan and one claim that insinuates that they are claiming that all gifts of the Spirit are not for today.
You, rightfully or not, conclude that Chosenone doesn't mean it that way...she herself has not clarified her stance.
Now let's take it she does not mean it that way, how are her claims then not strawman arguments?

You also conclude that billions of believers must be a hyperbole. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.
In any case can be labelled a strawman argument as well., because does it really matter how many people claim something for it to be true?

Lets linger a bit on the apostolic healing and let's assume billion of believers is a hyperbole.
Than what would not be a hyperbole? Millions of believers? Or maybe hundred thousands of believers?
Lets say that only thousand believers practice the gifts of the Spirit every day and only 1% has the apostolic gift of healing...that still leaves us with over 3,000 apostolic healings every year.
And how many of those are recorded, put on tape, proven? NONE!

You know, Jesus raised people from the dead. Peter also raised a person from dead.
Obviously it was not Peter who did it, but it was the Holy Spirit in him who did.
May I ask you when was the last time you or anyone witnessed someone being raised from the dead?
And if you or anyone else did not, what happened? Has raising people from the dead ceased to exist?

Remember it is the Charismatic Movement who claims that these gifts did not cease.
For the last 2000 years the church always believed they ceased, but only for the last 100 years or so people started saying they did not.
So where is the proof?

We know from scripture that healings became different.
Jesus healed all, the disciples healed and were surprised in one recorded case when they could not.
Peter and Paul healed people as well.
Yet you read in 2 Timothy that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. What do you think happened? Maybe Paul or Trophimus didn't believe enough?

If there was one Charismatic believer in history, it would be Paul. He did speak in tongues, healed, taught, prophesied, had knowledge etc etc.
Yet it is Paul who writes in 1 Corinthians 13:
"whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away”

Paul himself confirms that at some point some gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease.
So what does that make Paul? A cessationist?

In your book it is either/or. What does that make Paul to you?
If Paul believed that some gifts would cease, and if we uphold your statement, then Paul believed all gifts would cease?
But if that is the case then Paul would fall in the same category with McArthur and you would have to say that Paul assigned the gifts to the enemy?

The main point is however that cessationists do NOT say that all gifts have ceased to exist.
Sure you can demand that it must be everything or nothing, but why should cessationists have to live up to your demands?
If I were to demand that a believer must have either all the gifts of the Spirit or none, would you go and tell all believers they have to live up to my expectations?


You asked me to provide scripture and I did.
Now I want to turn it around and ask you to provide me scripture that praying in tongues, a personal private conversation with God in a language nobody understands or can translate, is biblical or even mentioned in scripture.
Also provide me with scripture that states that the gifts of the Spirit are given for the purpose of self education, rather than for the education of the body.
And finally please provide me with scripture (as FBM rightfully pointed out) that praying in tongues is a sign for believers instead of unbelievers.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #38 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 21:25:32 »

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #39 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 21:43:00 »
When a message is given in tongues in the assembly, no more that three should speak and there needs to be an interpretation of what is said, which there always has been when I have seen this. 
When I pray alone to God, I am praying to Him and no one else, my spirit praying directly to God who is spirit. I am not giving  a message but praying to Him. I need no interpretation, indeed this is the amazing thing about tongues, that we know we are always praying in His will because He gives us the words. With our own human minds, we often dont know what to pray or what His will is, and therefore we can then pray in tongues.

Basically you say that there are two types of tongues:
1) message for the body
2) personal prayer language

Problem is that the Bible only mentions one, and that is the message for the body.
Nowhere in scripture will you find that there is something like a personal unintelligible prayer language between people and God. If there is one person in scripture who prayed more than everybody else it was Jesus.
Did you ever read that Jesus was praying in babble?

In fact, if indeed as you claim God gives you the words to pray, and Jesus is God...would Jesus not ALWAYS have prayed in babble?
Yet when Jesus teaches us to pray it's in a human language. (Luke 11)

So this is whats happening:
a) First you say that there are two different types on tongues: speaking in tongues & praying in tongues
b) Then when someone asks you to defend that position, you use Corinthians to say that praying in tongues exists, even though Corinthians argues about speaking in tongues. So you are saying they are the same.
c) But when someone demands that praying in tongues must then also comply to the regulations set out in Corinthians, you say it doesn't have to because speaking in tongues and praying in tongues are different.

Seems to me you are just rejecting and accepting Corinthians whenever it suits you.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #39 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 21:43:00 »



Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7490
  • Manna: 290
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #40 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 22:07:11 »
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Cessationists use these verses to fortify their views of the ceasing of gifts, but these verses actually support the continuation of gifts until the coming of Christ, the things done in part (insignificant compared to receiving our gift of eternity in heaven) will be unnecessary at that time.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #41 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 00:58:56 »
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Cessationists use these verses to fortify their views of the ceasing of gifts, but these verses actually support the continuation of gifts until the coming of Christ, the things done in part (insignificant compared to receiving our gift of eternity in heaven) will be unnecessary at that time.

Yes non-cessationists usually say that "but when that which is perfect has come" refers to the return of Christ, but there are major objections to this position.

The first objection is that contextually Paul is not talking about the return of Christ. He is addressing the gifts of the Spirit and how they operate within the body of Christ (the church).

The second objection is that once Christ returns there no longer is need for any of the gifts of the Spirit, because once we are with Christ we need no longer to be taught. Neither is there need for prophesy or tongues or wisdom or healing.
Strangly enough however Paul does not say that when which is perfect has come ALL of the gifts will cease. He limits himself to a few.

Another objection is one of grammar. If what Paul states points towards Christ's coming, then Paul would not use "that which is perfect" but "He who is perfect".
You could however argue that it does not point to Christ's coming, but to Christ's rule on earth. The problem with this is that the Bible tells us that even during Christ's rule on earth people will fall away from faith, and that cannot be possible if one has perfect knowledge and perfect wisdom.

The reason why Paul limits the number of gifts is that "that which is perfect" does not refer to the return of Christ or His rule on earth, but to the completion of scripture.
We all agree that scripture is Gods Word and Gods Word is perfect. So now that we have scripture, that which is perfect has arrived.
Now that we have scripture and it has been and is being translated, there is no need for tongues.

Timothy 3 states that
"All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Not only do these verses confirm with us that scripture is perfect, it is also profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training.
Teaching is a gift of the Spirit, reproof and correction are directly related to another gift of the Spirit; discernment, and training creates knowledge.
On top of that we have in Revelation all we need for prophesy.
In fact the writer of Revelation states that no-one has to add further to the book. It's complete and perfect.

In my opinion "that which is perfect" refers to the completeness of scripture and not to the return of Christ.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #42 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 03:54:02 »
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Cessationists use these verses to fortify their views of the ceasing of gifts, but these verses actually support the continuation of gifts until the coming of Christ, the things done in part (insignificant compared to receiving our gift of eternity in heaven) will be unnecessary at that time.


Amen. How can anyone deny that the spiritual gifts are still in use today when so many believers are every day using them? Thinking just of the believers I know(who go to several different churches not all charismatic by any means) nearly all of them pray in tongues, some give words, prophecies, my husband was healed of RSI which he had had for years when a friend of ours laid hands on him and prayed for him, I think its tragic that some still cling onto that unbiblical idea that its not happening. They must be closing their eyes, putting their hands over their ears.
I also believe that as things get worse for Christians, the gifts will be used more and more and the power of God will be more evident through His children.
Would a commander in chief send his men into battle with no weapons? Of course not, and neither does God. 

Offline RB

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Manna: 346
  • Gender: Male
  • Acts 24:16
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #43 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 04:04:33 »
I fully believe the Gifts of the Spirit are here for the body.... they just have ceased to seek them in earnest for the body.  They are content to pew sit and go home.
Gifts are here for the body, without question based upon 1 Corinthians 12-14...just not the way that many claim. We also know the greatest of all gifts, which is charity, which your words are not toward many God fearing people that have never spoken in tongues (which is the least of all gifts, and we might add: SERVES unbelievers more than believers) past and present. Why are you assuming that they are pew warmers, because they do not desire the least of all gifts, but may very well desire the two greatest, which is charity, in all of their deeds, and prophesying, which serves and edifies the body of believers......question: who are more important is God's sight...the household of God, or, the household of Satan? You answer that.   
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 03:40:18 by RB »

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #44 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 04:06:33 »
When a message is given in tongues in the assembly, no more that three should speak and there needs to be an interpretation of what is said, which there always has been when I have seen this. 
When I pray alone to God, I am praying to Him and no one else, my spirit praying directly to God who is spirit. I am not giving  a message but praying to Him. I need no interpretation, indeed this is the amazing thing about tongues, that we know we are always praying in His will because He gives us the words. With our own human minds, we often dont know what to pray or what His will is, and therefore we can then pray in tongues.

Basically you say that there are two types of tongues:
1) message for the body
2) personal prayer language

Problem is that the Bible only mentions one, and that is the message for the body.
Nowhere in scripture will you find that there is something like a personal unintelligible prayer language between people and God. If there is one person in scripture who prayed more than everybody else it was Jesus.
Did you ever read that Jesus was praying in babble?

In fact, if indeed as you claim God gives you the words to pray, and Jesus is God...would Jesus not ALWAYS have prayed in babble?
Yet when Jesus teaches us to pray it's in a human language. (Luke 11)

So this is whats happening:
a) First you say that there are two different types on tongues: speaking in tongues & praying in tongues
b) Then when someone asks you to defend that position, you use Corinthians to say that praying in tongues exists, even though Corinthians argues about speaking in tongues. So you are saying they are the same.
c) But when someone demands that praying in tongues must then also comply to the regulations set out in Corinthians, you say it doesn't have to because speaking in tongues and praying in tongues are different.

Seems to me you are just rejecting and accepting Corinthians whenever it suits you.

Paul clearly speaks of the way he prays(not gives a message) in tongues directly to God a great deal, and that doing this he edifies himself spiritually. He also mentions singing in the spirit(tongues). Then he speaks of messages being given in tongues to the assembly which needs interpreting.  Two different things. Not all those who pray in tongues have the gift of prophecy. Dont have time to dig out the verses now.  The gift of prophecy(whether in our language or on the language of a tongue with interpretation) is a different girls from the one of praying/singing in tongues.

AVZ I shouldnt have to stand up to fellow believers for the use of the gifts of the spirit, I think its tragic that I do, and we have even had people on this forum who have actually attributed those gifts to satan as well as demeaning them and those who use them and making them out to be not of God. They need to be very careful, VERY careful.  ::eek::
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 06:38:13 by chosenone »

k-pappy

  • Guest
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #45 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 06:41:03 »
Once again, I am unswayed by anecdotal evidence.

I am a skeptical non-cessationist.  I don't want to place an artificial limit on God's power but I am especially skeptical of Charismatic leaders.

That's pretty much where I a stand on the spectrum.

k-pappy

  • Guest
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #46 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 06:44:37 »
I had hope for you AVZ, but you went off the rails again.

Let's make this very simple:  either The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased or they have not.

I am going to go out on a limb (please clarify if I am in error) and state you believe they have.

It is incumbent upon you, therefore, to provide the scriptures to support your position.  Please provide these scriptures so that we can discuss.

Thanks!

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #47 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 07:29:08 »
I had hope for you AVZ, but you went off the rails again.

Let's make this very simple:  either The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased or they have not.

I am going to go out on a limb (please clarify if I am in error) and state you believe they have.

It is incumbent upon you, therefore, to provide the scriptures to support your position.  Please provide these scriptures so that we can discuss.

Thanks!

Bond,

I have quoted scripture in various of my posts here. And I have asked you to do the same.
Why do you keep insisting that I should quote scripture, whilst you yourself in all your posts do not?

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #48 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 07:35:30 »
I had hope for you AVZ, but you went off the rails again.

Let's make this very simple:  either The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased or they have not.

I am going to go out on a limb (please clarify if I am in error) and state you believe they have.

It is incumbent upon you, therefore, to provide the scriptures to support your position.  Please provide these scriptures so that we can discuss.

Thanks!

In addition to me quoting scripture, I have also posted two links to the exact recordings this thread is all about: the Strange Fire conference, so that you can completely get yourself updated on the position of cessationists including scripture, theology, present events within the Charismatic Movement and more.

Let me repeat them again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJDmjFPFFJc&list=PLcpTMSL-FR-duvHk-xYVLOGCQRLnYBNxU&index=16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTrMSOrYew&list=PLcpTMSL-FR-duvHk-xYVLOGCQRLnYBNxU&index=10

Now if you would actually take the time to watch these clips you would have a better understanding of what McArthur and like minded cessationists are teaching and trying to accomplish.
If you don't...well we can dance around the topic for ages: you asking me to quote scripture...me quoting scripture...me asking you to quote scripture...you ignoring my request...you asking me to quote for scripture again etc etc.

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15981
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #49 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 08:36:22 »
Once again, I am unswayed by anecdotal evidence.

I am a skeptical non-cessationist.  I don't want to place an artificial limit on God's power but I am especially skeptical of Charismatic leaders.

That's pretty much where I a stand on the spectrum.

 ::nodding::

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #50 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 08:51:47 »
Having been what some may call a 'charismatic' for many years(although I dont label myself), and knowing many believers who some may also call charismatics(as well as some who arent) while I am generally a pretty skeptical person, as far as the gifts of the HS are concerned I KNOW they are real, I know they are for today, I know they are very much needed,  and I see them in action regularly. I earnestly desire the spiritual gifts as Paul tell us to do, and I love to see God working and hear God speaking through the gifts.
 God is spirit and He is very powerful, so denying His powerful  work through the HS happens today seems odd to put it mildly.

 
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 08:57:18 by chosenone »

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15981
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #51 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:01:10 »
Having been what some may call a 'charismatic' for many years(although I dont label myself), and knowing many believers who some may also call charismatics(as well as some who arent) while I am generally a pretty skeptical person, as far as the gifts of the HS are concerned I KNOW they are real, I know they are for today, I know they are very much needed,  and I see them in action regularly. I earnestly desire the spiritual gifts as Paul tell us to do, and I love to see God working and hear God speaking through the gifts.
 God is spirit and He is very powerful, so denying His powerful  work through the HS happens today seems odd to put it mildly.

I think the thing that makes me most a skeptic is when others say they have a word from God. The Holy Spirit is in His people and has never failed to let me know just exactly what it is He is displeased with in my walk with Him, or to move and act, or to just comfort me with the Word.

I have a hard time with those that come, claiming a word, that is either in "you think you are His, but you aren't" types of condemnation -OR- super pie in the sky, everything is gonna go your way kind of messages.

Online Texas Conservative

  • 1st Day Texas Conservativite
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8700
  • Manna: 359
  • My church is 100% right, Your church is 100% wrong
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #52 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:03:38 »
Having been what some may call a 'charismatic' for many years(although I dont label myself), and knowing many believers who some may also call charismatics(as well as some who arent) while I am generally a pretty skeptical person, as far as the gifts of the HS are concerned I KNOW they are real, I know they are for today, I know they are very much needed,  and I see them in action regularly. I earnestly desire the spiritual gifts as Paul tell us to do, and I love to see God working and hear God speaking through the gifts.
 God is spirit and He is very powerful, so denying His powerful  work through the HS happens today seems odd to put it mildly.

Once again, come at me with scriptures for your position.  Anecdotal evidence means nothing to me.

Offline MeMyself

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15981
  • Manna: 382
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #53 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:08:09 »
Also, I have a family member that was stricken with a crippling illness when they were just out of diapers.

His whole life, some well meaning person of faith will come and offer to lay hands on him in prayer.  He accepts, and they pray over him for miraculous healing.  When it doesn't come, they *blame* him (as if he wasn't afflicted enough) and lecture him on his lack of faith that keeps *their* prayers from being heard.  ::doh:: ::cryingtears::

God sometimes, more often than not, I think, actually, lets us keep the thorn in our flesh, to show us that His grace is sufficient...

Now, I have also heard testimonies of cancers being healed, of tumors just disappearing.  God *can* and *does* move in the gift of healing...

But, I just wish we could show more grace to those He chooses to say "no" too and not add to their already hurting hearts.


Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #54 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:23:14 »
Having been what some may call a 'charismatic' for many years(although I dont label myself), and knowing many believers who some may also call charismatics(as well as some who arent) while I am generally a pretty skeptical person, as far as the gifts of the HS are concerned I KNOW they are real, I know they are for today, I know they are very much needed,  and I see them in action regularly. I earnestly desire the spiritual gifts as Paul tell us to do, and I love to see God working and hear God speaking through the gifts.
 God is spirit and He is very powerful, so denying His powerful  work through the HS happens today seems odd to put it mildly.

I think the thing that makes me most a skeptic is when others say they have a word from God. The Holy Spirit is in His people and has never failed to let me know just exactly what it is He is displeased with in my walk with Him, or to move and act, or to just comfort me with the Word.

I have a hard time with those that come, claiming a word, that is either in "you think you are His, but you aren't" types of condemnation -OR- super pie in the sky, everything is gonna go your way kind of messages.
 


yes, I have heard many such words that I knew werent from Him and many that were. That's why we need discernment in the body and in our own lives to know the right from the wrong. Often words given to us will be confirming what we feel God has been telling us. They will always confirm scripture, and His word will always be either exhorting, encouraging and/or comforting. Any (including some that people come here to give) that are discouraging and condemning and hateful arent from Him.

« Last Edit: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:29:18 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #55 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:26:08 »
Also, I have a family member that was stricken with a crippling illness when they were just out of diapers.

His whole life, some well meaning person of faith will come and offer to lay hands on him in prayer.  He accepts, and they pray over him for miraculous healing.  When it doesn't come, they *blame* him (as if he wasn't afflicted enough) and lecture him on his lack of faith that keeps *their* prayers from being heard.  ::doh:: ::cryingtears::

God sometimes, more often than not, I think, actually, lets us keep the thorn in our flesh, to show us that His grace is sufficient...

Now, I have also heard testimonies of cancers being healed, of tumors just disappearing.  God *can* and *does* move in the gift of healing...

But, I just wish we could show more grace to those He chooses to say "no" too and not add to their already hurting hearts.


 I know people who have been healed and many who havent, but to tell anyone that they dont have enough faith is cruel and something I would never ever do. I dont believe that its ever Gods will that we are sick, but for whatever reason, many arent healed in this life.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #56 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:27:35 »
Having been what some may call a 'charismatic' for many years(although I dont label myself), and knowing many believers who some may also call charismatics(as well as some who arent) while I am generally a pretty skeptical person, as far as the gifts of the HS are concerned I KNOW they are real, I know they are for today, I know they are very much needed,  and I see them in action regularly. I earnestly desire the spiritual gifts as Paul tell us to do, and I love to see God working and hear God speaking through the gifts.
 God is spirit and He is very powerful, so denying His powerful  work through the HS happens today seems odd to put it mildly.

Once again, come at me with scriptures for your position.  Anecdotal evidence means nothing to me.
   

TC over the years I have put here so many scriptures about the gifts of the spirit, and they can all be found in Pauls teachings. IF they werent there I wouldnt ever have sought them.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #57 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 09:34:04 »
Just for starters TC
1 Corinthians 12New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Spiritual Gifts
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Unity and Diversity in the Body
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #58 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 10:10:06 »
Just for starters TC
1 Corinthians 12New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Spiritual Gifts
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Unity and Diversity in the Body
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

a) the gift of praying in tongues for yourself is not for common good. It only serves your own good
b) the gift of praying in tongues is not even listed as a gift of the Spirit

So if it is not for common good, and if it is not listed...how can it be a gift of the Spirit?

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #59 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 10:16:22 »
Now, I have also heard testimonies of cancers being healed, of tumors just disappearing.  God *can* and *does* move in the gift of healing...

The gift of healing should not be confused with a prayer for healing.
A prayer for healing is a request to God to heal a person and then wait for God to answer that prayer, or not.
The gift of healing is what Jesus and the apostles did: command a cripple to stand up and walk, or command limbs to grow back, or command a blind to see.
Moreover he who claims to have the gift of healing CANNOT fail to heal!

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #60 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 14:17:48 »
Now, I have also heard testimonies of cancers being healed, of tumors just disappearing.  God *can* and *does* move in the gift of healing...

The gift of healing should not be confused with a prayer for healing.
A prayer for healing is a request to God to heal a person and then wait for God to answer that prayer, or not.
The gift of healing is what Jesus and the apostles did: command a cripple to stand up and walk, or command limbs to grow back, or command a blind to see.
Moreover he who claims to have the gift of healing CANNOT fail to heal!


 Those who lay their hands on the sick person and pray for healing and see the person healed have the gift of healing. God heals usually though us as we use the gift.   

Offline Alan

  • I AM Canadian!
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7490
  • Manna: 290
  • Gender: Male
  • Politically Incorrect
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #61 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 18:04:27 »

AVZ, how do you know that the disciples had 100% success in every instance of laying hands on the sick? The Bible recalls at least one account of them failing.

It is always God that does the healing, and always was. Peter could not heal the sick but God working in and through him certainly could.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #62 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 20:10:48 »
Now, I have also heard testimonies of cancers being healed, of tumors just disappearing.  God *can* and *does* move in the gift of healing...

The gift of healing should not be confused with a prayer for healing.
A prayer for healing is a request to God to heal a person and then wait for God to answer that prayer, or not.
The gift of healing is what Jesus and the apostles did: command a cripple to stand up and walk, or command limbs to grow back, or command a blind to see.
Moreover he who claims to have the gift of healing CANNOT fail to heal!


 Those who lay their hands on the sick person and pray for healing and see the person healed have the gift of healing. God heals usually though us as we use the gift.

Thats not how the Bible describes it.
Do you see Peter standing in front on the crippled man saying: "Lets pray maybe God will heal you"?
No, what you read is: "Money I do not have, but what I have I will give you. Stand up and walk!"
People brought their sick out so that his shadow may be cast on them and they would be healed.

In Paul's case even his handkerchiefs were brought to the sick so that they were healed.

Jesus didn't heal with a variable success rate.
The Bible states that all who came to Him were healed.

Now that's the gift of healing.

Offline Fascinated_By_Mysteries

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 350
  • Manna: 3
  • Gender: Male
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #63 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 20:35:27 »

AVZ, how do you know that the disciples had 100% success in every instance of laying hands on the sick? The Bible recalls at least one account of them failing.

It is always God that does the healing, and always was. Peter could not heal the sick but God working in and through him certainly could.

No, but from what weve seen they suceeded 99% of the time, so unless proven otherwise we have to go by that.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #64 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 20:43:08 »

AVZ, how do you know that the disciples had 100% success in every instance of laying hands on the sick? The Bible recalls at least one account of them failing.

It is always God that does the healing, and always was. Peter could not heal the sick but God working in and through him certainly could.

There is indeed one instance where the disciples "failed" a healing, but it is immediately explained to us that it was because there was a lesson to be learned from it.
The victim however was healed. There is not a single instance in scripture where a healing failed and where the victim went back home not being healed.
A small note of importance: This instance took place before the outpooring of the Holy Spirit, the disciples had not yet received their apostolic authority.

Of all the healings in the Bible, how many do you read were done by laying up hands?
There are a few healings recorded where some ritual was performed, but all these rituals had a message encapsulated. There was a point to be made.
All the other healings were simply by command: "stand up and walk". No laying up of hands or come again tomorrow.

The gift of healing was a sign to support the message of the gospel.
It was not a sign that sometimes worked and sometimes not. Give me an instance in scripture were a healing was not successful and the sick person had to go home without being healed.

All the gifts of the Spirit are perfect gifts because the Holy Spirit is God and God is perfect!
For example: Do you think that someone with the gift of prophesy can ever make a false prophesy?
Can the Holy Spirit be wrong? Can the Holy Spirit lie?

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to exercise an omnipotent gift, and then fail because God cannot fail!
It is IMPOSSIBLE for someone to say "I am using my gift of healing", tell a person to be healed, and the healing fails.
If it fails, then it the person does not have the gift of healing.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a person to say "I have the spiritual gift of teaching" and then teach a false message.
He does not have the gift of teaching.

The gifts of the Spirit are not variable gifts that sometimes work and sometimes not.
And that is the big difference today with people who claim to have Spiritual gifts...they never are consistent in what they promise.
Do you ever read in the Bible that God is inconsistent, or doesn't keep His promises?
Then how can people come in throngs to healing meetings and then leave without being healed? That's not a healing meeting. At best it is a prayer meeting.
But people do not go there because they are promised a good prayer, people go there because they are promised healing.
Apparently the preacher on stage has the gift of healing but fails to exercise it?

It is very simple and there is no way around it: If someone has a spiritual gift and exercises it, the gift must always be successful!
If it he not successful, then it CANNOT be from God.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #65 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 20:46:14 »

AVZ, how do you know that the disciples had 100% success in every instance of laying hands on the sick? The Bible recalls at least one account of them failing.

It is always God that does the healing, and always was. Peter could not heal the sick but God working in and through him certainly could.

No, but from what weve seen they suceeded 99% of the time, so unless proven otherwise we have to go by that.

The success rate of healings in the Bible has always been 100%
Also in this specific case the victim was healed.
Do note that NO ONE in scripture who came for healing was ever sent back without being healed.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #66 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 21:24:22 »
I thank God for the healings that I know of and that I hear of. At least those people are actually stepping out and doing what God has said using their gifts and being obedient and brave, instead of meely judging those who do, and/or moaning about the fact that not all are healed. Remember that not even Jesus was able to do miracles in His home town because of doubt and unbelief. The same applies in the church today.

Offline AVZ

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6189
  • Manna: 122
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #67 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 22:00:40 »
I thank God for the healings that I know of and that I hear of. At least those people are actually stepping out and doing what God has said using their gifts and being obedient and brave, instead of meely judging those who do, and/or moaning about the fact that not all are healed. Remember that not even Jesus was able to do miracles in His home town because of doubt and unbelief. The same applies in the church today.

Mark 6:5 states
"And He could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief. And he went about among the villages teaching."

This in no way insinuates that Jesus was disabled to do any miracles. In fact the verse states that Jesus indeed did perform miracles as He did heal some people.
The point of this verse is that people did not want Jesus to do any miracles, they did not want to hear of it.
Yet, if you read correctly, even though the people didn't want Him...He still healed people.

This still is in sharp contradiction with what happens today in churches where it is generally accepted that a FAILED healing can be subscribed to a persons unbelief.
Read Mark 6 again...it does not say in any shape or form that Jesus performed FAILED miracles or did FAILED healings.
Jesus simply did not do any mighty miracles...but whatever He did was successful.

The charismatics today have accepted that a healer can have numerous failed healings, or even an unproven and unverifiable success rate.
They call that a gift of the Spirit.

The charismatics today have accepted that a prophet can be wrong and continue to uphold him as a prophet even though the Bible states clearly that if a prophet is wrong he is not from God. Yet they say the person has the gift of prophesy.

And so is it with almost each and every gift of the Spirit.
Charismatics have created numerous loopholes for those who claim to have the gifts and yet fail in their execution.
A healer doesn't have to heal a lot, as long as there are rumours and stories of someone getting rid of a headache or cough.
A healer is not expected to heal blind people, of grow back limbs.

And as long as a prophet is right once in a while, then surely he must be guided by the Holy Spirit, no?
Forget that even a broken clock is right twice a day, they continue to assign the gift of prophesy to this person.

Same with the gift of tongues.
Gone is the requirement that it has to be a language. Now it can be anything between babble and humming.
It also does not have to be translated or even educative for the common good. No requirements are needed whatsoever.
Really, anyone who now says "gobble gobble gobble" can claim he is speaking in tongues, and anyone who says "yammana yammana yammana" can claim exactly the same.
And all go: Hallelujah, he has the gift of speaking in tongues, because....he says so.

This is not how things are supposed to be.
When the Holy Spirit is at work, He is at work undeniably.
The problem is that the charismatics are allowing the Holy Spirit to manifest Himself through works of failure, whether it is failed healing, false teachers or unintelligible speaking in tongues.

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #68 on: Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 03:52:51 »
He did a few healings, a few, not many but a few. I praise God for the many that do happen today and for those I know who have bene healed of many things.  Its sad that you cant do the same.

BTW tongues isn't unintelligble to God, to whom it is spoken. Its a spiritual language spoken by our spirits to God who is spirit.
IF I heard someone pray to God in Japanese it will be unintelligible to me. Doesnt mean its not genuine.   

You have many strange ideas about what charismatics believe and think that are not my experience at all, however we are all fallible, and even someone who gives prophecies can get it wrong sometimes. That's why we need people who have the gift of discernment. 

Offline chosenone

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30620
  • Manna: 536
  • Gender: Female
Re: Strange fire........Blasphemy
« Reply #69 on: Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 04:01:23 »
Now, I have also heard testimonies of cancers being healed, of tumors just disappearing.  God *can* and *does* move in the gift of healing...

The gift of healing should not be confused with a prayer for healing.
A prayer for healing is a request to God to heal a person and then wait for God to answer that prayer, or not.
The gift of healing is what Jesus and the apostles did: command a cripple to stand up and walk, or command limbs to grow back, or command a blind to see.
Moreover he who claims to have the gift of healing CANNOT fail to heal!


 Those who lay their hands on the sick person and pray for healing and see the person healed have the gift of healing. God heals usually though us as we use the gift.

Thats not how the Bible describes it.
Do you see Peter standing in front on the crippled man saying: "Lets pray maybe God will heal you"?
No, what you read is: "Money I do not have, but what I have I will give you. Stand up and walk!"
People brought their sick out so that his shadow may be cast on them and they would be healed.

In Paul's case even his handkerchiefs were brought to the sick so that they were healed.

Jesus didn't heal with a variable success rate.
The Bible states that all who came to Him were healed.

Now that's the gift of healing.

I have never heard anyone say 'maybe God will heal you'. When my husband was healed of RSI the man layed lands on him and prayed. No asking, only expecting in faith, and it happened.  When my friend was healed after 8 years in a wheelchair, she was prayed for by a brand new believer who God had told to lay hands on her. She never needed that wheel chair again and that was about 25 years ago. ::clappingoverhead::  Praise God. if those people had doubted and disobeyed God, there would have been no healing.

You criticise those who are stepping out in obedience, while you yourself and others who dont think the gifts are for today are part of the problem as to why healing often doesnt  happen, criticising and demeaning and doubting and judging those who are actively  walking in obedience praying for the sick, giving words from God and using the other gifts that he has given. How about you step out of the boat yourself instead of sitting safely inside it and criticising those who do step out to obey the great commission,
As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.



« Last Edit: Sat Sep 19, 2015 - 04:29:34 by chosenone »

 

     
anything