You may feel that way, but I disagree. My diversions are simply responses to her answers. At least you admit they are diversions. That puts you ahead of most.
1) John is greatly deceived by his idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today and is risking committing the sin of blaspheming the HS if he hasn't already.
So, we've already established he is a well known cessationist. Well I agree with TC that cessationism does not automatically equate to calling the gifts acts of Satan, there is always the risk of crossing that line. I think chosenone is good here.
2) He and other like him are attributing the working of the HS to the enemy, what other conclusion is there?I have seen him comparing the gifts to pagan rituals. The only way for me to find a direct quote to support this is to buy his books and I simply not willing to give him any of my money. Like I said above, given some of the things he has admitted to and been quoted to say, this is not a stretch. In fact, it is a stretch to rationalize his remarks and claim he is saying something else. I'll give this one a so-so. There has been no evidence presented and in order to gather that evidence I need to spend money on something I am not willing to. I won't cede the point, but I won't press it either. Let's just say he runs the risk of crossing that line and leave it at that.
3) Its laughable that anyone should believe that tongues, prophecy and healings are not for today, when billions of believers world wide use these gifts daily..."I am pretty sure this falls under hyperbole. I do not think she is being literal, but using "billions" to denote a lot of people, but I will let her speak to that.
McArthur, and all other cessationists only claim that SOME of the gifts have ceased. And there is good ground for it because speaking in tongues and healing are NOT happening today the same way they were exercised in the New Testament.
Why some gifts and not others? It must be an all or nothing thing. Either gifts of the Spirit have ceased or they have not. Where is the scripture to support this statement?
When you step into a charismatic church and people speak in tongues, when was the last time you saw it being translated?
And when was the last time you sew a healer who claims to have the apostolic gift of healing growing back limbs?
Sure you can call these strawman agruments, but the fact is they drill right into the core of the matter.
Why is it so hard for charismatics to give some straight examples for the gift of healing? After all there are billions of believers doing things like this every day.
And why do charismatics always seem to pick to "easy" gift of speaking in tongues? Is it because it can be faked so easily? After all, if noone can prove you are not speaking a language...then how could anyone possibly accuse you of faking one.
Those are straw man arguments. I'm glad to see you admit it. Like said, it's an all or nothing deal.
Please provide scriptures to support your opinion.
First of all I am not admitting I am making deliberate diversions from the topic. What i am saying is that the diversions from the topic are there because i am replying to Chosenone's responses.
Yes we are moving away from the main topic, I am well aware of that, but they are for arguments sake and not to set up strawman arguments.
With regards to those strawman arguments; we have a claim by Chosenone that insinuate that McArthus (and like minded) are assigning all gifts of the Spirit to Satan and one claim that insinuates that they are claiming that all gifts of the Spirit are not for today.
You, rightfully or not, conclude that Chosenone doesn't mean it that way...she herself has not clarified her stance.
Now let's take it she does not mean it that way, how are her claims then not strawman arguments?
You also conclude that billions of believers must be a hyperbole. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.
In any case can be labelled a strawman argument as well., because does it really matter how many people claim something for it to be true?
Lets linger a bit on the apostolic healing and let's assume billion of believers is a hyperbole.
Than what would not be a hyperbole? Millions of believers? Or maybe hundred thousands of believers?
Lets say that only thousand believers practice the gifts of the Spirit every day and only 1% has the apostolic gift of healing...that still leaves us with over 3,000 apostolic healings every year.
And how many of those are recorded, put on tape, proven? NONE!
You know, Jesus raised people from the dead. Peter also raised a person from dead.
Obviously it was not Peter who did it, but it was the Holy Spirit in him who did.
May I ask you when was the last time you or anyone witnessed someone being raised from the dead?
And if you or anyone else did not, what happened? Has raising people from the dead ceased to exist?
Remember it is the Charismatic Movement who claims that these gifts did not cease.
For the last 2000 years the church always believed they ceased, but only for the last 100 years or so people started saying they did not.
So where is the proof?
We know from scripture that healings became different.
Jesus healed all, the disciples healed and were surprised in one recorded case when they could not.
Peter and Paul healed people as well.
Yet you read in 2 Timothy that Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. What do you think happened? Maybe Paul or Trophimus didn't believe enough?
If there was one Charismatic believer in history, it would be Paul. He did speak in tongues, healed, taught, prophesied, had knowledge etc etc.
Yet it is Paul who writes in 1 Corinthians 13: "whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away”
Paul himself confirms that at some point some gifts of the Holy Spirit will cease.
So what does that make Paul? A cessationist?
In your book it is either/or. What does that make Paul to you?
If Paul believed that some gifts would cease, and if we uphold your statement, then Paul believed all gifts would cease?
But if that is the case then Paul would fall in the same category with McArthur and you would have to say that Paul assigned the gifts to the enemy?
The main point is however that cessationists do NOT say that all gifts have ceased to exist.
Sure you can demand that it must be everything or nothing, but why should cessationists have to live up to your demands?
If I were to demand that a believer must have either all the gifts of the Spirit or none, would you go and tell all believers they have to live up to my expectations?
You asked me to provide scripture and I did.
Now I want to turn it around and ask you to provide me scripture that praying in tongues, a personal private conversation with God in a language nobody understands or can translate, is biblical or even mentioned in scripture.
Also provide me with scripture that states that the gifts of the Spirit are given for the purpose of self education, rather than for the education of the body.
And finally please provide me with scripture (as FBM rightfully pointed out) that praying in tongues is a sign for believers instead of unbelievers.