GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)  (Read 29406 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #210 on: Sun Mar 18, 2012 - 08:22:35 »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #210 on: Sun Mar 18, 2012 - 08:22:35 »

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5198
  • Manna: 135
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #211 on: Sun Mar 18, 2012 - 17:18:30 »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #211 on: Sun Mar 18, 2012 - 17:18:30 »

Offline AVZ

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4873
  • Manna: 105
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #212 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 03:17:13 »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.

Offline Paulus

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
  • Manna: 138
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #213 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 06:09:17 »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

I am uncertain as to whether the above reply # 210 is an attempted answer to the question I posed in reply # 209 .

If it is it does not answer my question . It simply states some points about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" .

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #213 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 06:09:17 »

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5198
  • Manna: 135
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #214 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 07:23:07 »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.


You mean we don't you.    so what this means is we are saved by affiliation  and true faith in Christ means nothing.   I don't think thats completly true. I herad it said that since generations have passed and many protestants now have grown up faithfull to Christ yet ingnorant of the true church are not as culpable as their reformer fathers. Therefore they can be saved.

Any Catholic want shed light on that.
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 07:54:45 by mclees8 »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #214 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 07:23:07 »



Offline AVZ

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4873
  • Manna: 105
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #215 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 09:28:04 »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.


You mean we don't you.    so what this means is we are saved by affiliation  and true faith in Christ means nothing.   I don't think thats completly true. I herad it said that since generations have passed and many protestants now have grown up faithfull to Christ yet ingnorant of the true church are not as culpable as their reformer fathers. Therefore they can be saved.

Any Catholic want shed light on that.

This is what Augustine wrote about ignorance:
"Although there is One present everywhere who in many ways through His creation beckons to hostile servants, instructs believers, comforts those who hope, encourages those who work, aids those who try, and hears those who pray, you are not considered at fault if you, against your will, are ignorant; however, if you are ignorant because you fail to ask, you are at fault."

Basically, if the material is available to you to know the teaching of the Catholic Church, but you do not query about it...you cannot claim ignorance.

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #216 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 09:58:59 »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy.  



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #217 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 10:00:08 »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

I am uncertain as to whether the above reply # 210 is an attempted answer to the question I posed in reply # 209 .

If it is it does not answer my question . It simply states some points about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" .



Hi Paulus, and it was not directed necessarily to you. I seemed to detect the debate concerning the Catholic Church's dogma on those not of their church and their salvation issues going in a direction not conducive to understanding their point of view. To me it is better to just paste what they do say concerning it. I'm not familiar with the term "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." Thanks for your reply.

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #218 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 10:04:27 »

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.

BOTH you and Mclees have been so tragically erroneous about Catholic positions on just about EVERYTHING, including Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus that I would NEVER accuse either one of you of being "knowledgeable" about the Catholic faith.

With God - there's ALWAYS hope . . .

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #219 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 10:20:55 »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #220 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 10:36:36 »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.


YOUR position is based on the age-old problem with Protestantism:
You ALL must cherry-pick the Scriptures to sustain your false beliefs.

Let's take a look at John 9, where Jesus heals the Blind man.  Even AFTER seeing this  miracle, the Pharisees continue to reject Jesus.
What does Jesus tell them about TRUE blindness??  SPIRITUAL blindeness?

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #221 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 10:55:11 »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.


YOUR position is based on the age-old problem with Protestantism:
You ALL must cherry-pick the Scriptures to sustain your false beliefs.

Let's take a look at John 9, where Jesus heals the Blind man.  Even AFTER seeing this  miracle, the Pharisees continue to reject Jesus.
What does Jesus tell them about TRUE blindness??  SPIRITUAL blindeness?

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

Offline forklift

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #222 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 11:16:24 »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.


YOUR position is based on the age-old problem with Protestantism:
You ALL must cherry-pick the Scriptures to sustain your false beliefs.

Let's take a look at John 9, where Jesus heals the Blind man.  Even AFTER seeing this  miracle, the Pharisees continue to reject Jesus.
What does Jesus tell them about TRUE blindness??  SPIRITUAL blindeness?

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #223 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 11:50:11 »

So you're taking that to mean a person never receiving the Lord Jesus because of ignorance is proclaimed righteous, saved, and going to heaven? If they're are none righteous according to Romans 3:10, how is that to come to pass?  Concerning the dead; those not in Christ of Apocalypse 20:13   . . they were judged every one according to their works. I will agree that a child not knowing good or bad is not judged until they consciously sin is innocent of judgment.
 


An old man from an Amazon tribe who has never heard of Jesus Christ, yet has lead an exemplary life, always done for others, and if, having heard the good news about Jesus, probably would have converted, can be saved by the Grace of God. To say otherwise limits the power of God.


Thanks Forklift, I agree if that old man never once fell from the straight and narrow. If they do, and they do for there none good, and they are judged. This is just my opinion, but I believe that with grace and light given, our reaction to it provides whether more light is shown. In John 16:8  And when He (The Holy Spirit) is come, He  will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. Titus 2:11 says, "For the grace of God our Saviour hath appeared to all men. Romans 1:20  For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #224 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 16:07:40 »
So you're taking that to mean a person never receiving the Lord Jesus because of ignorance is proclaimed righteous, saved, and going to heaven? If they're are none righteous according to Romans 3:10, how is that to come to pass?  Concerning the dead; those not in Christ of Apocalypse 20:13   . . they were judged every one according to their works. I will agree that a child not knowing good or bad is not judged until they consciously sin is innocent of judgment.

Thank you Larry for illustrating to EVERYBODY how you guys twist the Catholic position to say something that it DOESN'T.

The Church doesn't teach that the invincibly ignorant WILL go to heaven.  It teaches that they, too MAY achieve salvation.

As for Romans 3:10 - they can become righteous in Christ in the SAME way you or I can: 
By God's infinite GRACE
You sound like the Pharisees:

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #225 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 16:35:33 »
So you're taking that to mean a person never receiving the Lord Jesus because of ignorance is proclaimed righteous, saved, and going to heaven? If they're are none righteous according to Romans 3:10, how is that to come to pass?  Concerning the dead; those not in Christ of Apocalypse 20:13   . . they were judged every one according to their works. I will agree that a child not knowing good or bad is not judged until they consciously sin is innocent of judgment.

Thank you Larry for illustrating to EVERYBODY how you guys twist the Catholic position to say something that it DOESN'T.

The Church doesn't teach that the invincibly ignorant WILL go to heaven.  It teaches that they, too MAY achieve salvation.

As for Romans 3:10 - they can become righteous in Christ in the SAME way you or I can: 
By God's infinite GRACE
You sound like the Pharisees:

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5198
  • Manna: 135
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #226 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 19:03:08 »

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.

BOTH you and Mclees have been so tragically erroneous about Catholic positions on just about EVERYTHING, including Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus that I would NEVER accuse either one of you of being "knowledgeable" about the Catholic faith.

With God - there's ALWAYS hope . . .

How is it that you know the issue in question and the question can a catholic shed light on i?. You come back accusing of ignorance but you give a non answer. What  would  you say about  the statement about those outside the catholic church yet doing Gods will can be saved. Is this an offical church statment? Giving thought about what Larry  said. the stament is not even scriptureal

Offline Scott1

  • Maronite Catholic
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 292
  • Manna: 3
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #227 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 21:49:22 »
Quote from: Elvisman
NOPE.
When a person is proclaimed to be a saint in heaven, this is an Ex Cathedra statement – revealed truth. This is part of the “ALL TRUTH

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #228 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 22:13:58 »

How is it that you know the issue in question and the question can a catholic shed light on i?. You come back accusing of ignorance but you give a non answer. What  would  you say about  the statement about those outside the catholic church yet doing Gods will can be saved. Is this an offical church statment? Giving thought about what Larry  said. the stament is not even scriptureal

Wrong.
Go back and READ the posts.  I've said enough about Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - which is the Church's position on Salvation outside the Church - to write a book about it.

The fact that you haven't paid attention to the cponversation except for your intermittent nonsensical and indecipherable rants is nobody's fault but your own . . .

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #229 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 22:25:10 »

You poor soul. Don't even know if you're saved and telling everyone else they're wrong. I pasted what the Catholic Church teaches, and you can make excuses until you're blue in the face attempting to change the subject. Why don't you say exactly what you're saying about all that don't belong to your organization, and try for once to keep in context with your church's position.

HUH??
Now, you're starting to sound like Mclees.

Can you guys stop and think about what you're gong to post BEFORE you post it?
You shoot from the hip and your answers don't make any sense.

WHERE did you post what the Catholic Church teaches - and WHAT was it about?
WHERE  did I go off-context with what the Church teaches about the possible salvation of non-Catholics??
You're all over the place because you're angry.

Please explain your comments.

Offline Paulus

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
  • Manna: 138
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #230 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 06:41:55 »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

I am uncertain as to whether the above reply # 210 is an attempted answer to the question I posed in reply # 209 .

If it is it does not answer my question . It simply states some points about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" .



Hi Paulus, and it was not directed necessarily to you. I seemed to detect the debate concerning the Catholic Church's dogma on those not of their church and their salvation issues going in a direction not conducive to understanding their point of view. To me it is better to just paste what they do say concerning it. I'm not familiar with the term "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." Thanks for your reply.

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" is just Latin for "no salvation outside the Church" .

It is not a term I would use because it is so open to misunderstanding .

In explaining it correctly so many clauses have to be inserted to rule out such and such a thing  , and this , that and the other , that one would end up with an encyclopaedia .

I also think the term can be offensive to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ not in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church .

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #231 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 06:59:35 »

You poor soul. Don't even know if you're saved and telling everyone else they're wrong. I pasted what the Catholic Church teaches, and you can make excuses until you're blue in the face attempting to change the subject. Why don't you say exactly what you're saying about all that don't belong to your organization, and try for once to keep in context with your church's position.

HUH??
Now, you're starting to sound like Mclees.

Can you guys stop and think about what you're gong to post BEFORE you post it?
You shoot from the hip and your answers don't make any sense.

WHERE did you post what the Catholic Church teaches - and WHAT was it about?
WHERE  did I go off-context with what the Church teaches about the possible salvation of non-Catholics??
You're all over the place because you're angry.

Please explain your comments.

Go back and read the posts you poor soul. ::smile::

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #232 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 09:15:54 »
Go back and read the posts you poor soul. ::smile::

Yeah - that's what I thought. ::frown::

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #233 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 09:35:22 »
Go back and read the posts you poor soul. ::smile::

Yeah - that's what I thought. ::frown::


That's just the type of garbage replies you put out, but it is Reply #210.

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #234 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 10:01:17 »
Go back and read the posts you poor soul. ::smile::

Yeah - that's what I thought. ::frown::


That's just the type of garbage replies you put out, but it is Reply #210.

Thanks.  That wasn't so hard, was it?

Now - let's address your accusation that I am taking this out of context.  How so?
Explain . . .

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5198
  • Manna: 135
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #235 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 10:11:09 »

How is it that you know the issue in question and the question can a catholic shed light on i?. You come back accusing of ignorance but you give a non answer. What  would  you say about  the statement about those outside the catholic church yet doing Gods will can be saved. Is this an offical church statment? Giving thought about what Larry  said. the stament is not even scriptureal

Wrong.
Go back and READ the posts.  I've said enough about Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus - which is the Church's position on Salvation outside the Church - to write a book about it.

The fact that you haven't paid attention to the cponversation except for your intermittent nonsensical and indecipherable rants is nobody's fault but your own . . .

Try speaking english.  Were americans.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #236 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 10:21:52 »

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" is just Latin for "no salvation outside the Church" .

It is not a term I would use because it is so open to misunderstanding .

In explaining it correctly so many clauses have to be inserted to rule out such and such a thing  , and this , that and the other , that one would end up with an encyclopaedia .

I also think the term can be offensive to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ not in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church .



Thank you dear brother for a great explanation and using grace. Matthew 7:20. "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." My application to that would be John 14:6  "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Outside of Christ there is no salvation.


   

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5198
  • Manna: 135
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #237 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 11:06:20 »
I read the last post and its complicated yet I don't think is that hard to see the catholic double talk

This is the offical catholic affirmation

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).


The statement no salvation outside the church is a true statement, but when Catholics refer to the church they refer only those who are members of the catholic church and recognizes only papal authority. Now they  say those outside the church can be saved if they sincerely follow after Christ. How can one sincerely follow after Christ and not be of his church.  It is clear that we are saved and of the church by faith. I guess I have to be ignorant but this does not compute. It is simply not scrpitural


Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #238 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 12:21:50 »

Try speaking english.  Were americans.

Yet another intelligent response from Mclees . . .  ::frown::

Not everybody on this board is American.

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #239 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 12:27:49 »

Thank you dear brother for a great explanation and using grace. Matthew 7:20. "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." My application to that would be John 14:6  "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Outside of Christ there is no salvation.

To that, I would offer the following 2 verses which show that the Church IS Christ.
Ergo - Outside of Church (Christ) there is no salvation . . .

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?

Offline grace

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 4247
  • Manna: 144
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #240 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 12:33:52 »

Thank you dear brother for a great explanation and using grace. Matthew 7:20. "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." My application to that would be John 14:6  "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Outside of Christ there is no salvation.

To that, I would offer the following 2 verses which show that the Church IS Christ.
Ergo - Outside of Church (Christ) there is no salvation . . .

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #241 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 12:44:04 »
I read the last post and its complicated yet I don't think is that hard to see the catholic double talk

This is the offical catholic affirmation

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church:
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation" (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, 16).

The statement no salvation outside the church is a true statement, but when Catholics refer to the church they refer only those who are members of the catholic church and recognizes only papal authority. Now they  say those outside the church can be saved if they sincerely follow after Christ. How can one sincerely follow after Christ and not be of his church.  It is clear that we are saved and of the church by faith. I guess I have to be ignorant but this does not compute. It is simply not scrpitural

No double-talk at all. 
It's just that not everybody is exposed to Christ explicitly.  Some people have never even HEARD of the name of Jesus Christ, let alone the Gospel. 

You need to know the Scriptures that suppport the theology of this doctrine before you make further comment on it.  The Scriptures are clear that even though some may not know Christ, they MAY achieve salvation by truly seeking God in their hearts:

John 9:41
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

Rom. 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.


God is not a monster who sends people kicking and screaming into hell, having never had a chance to know Him.  As Paul states in Rom. 1:20 - everybody has a knowledge of God through creation, though they may not know Christ.
The Church leaves these people to the mercy of God, so the phrase "those too MAY achieve eternal salvation" is fair and accurate.

Offline Paulus

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
  • Manna: 138
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #242 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 16:35:42 »
[ so the phrase "those too MAY achieve eternal salvation" is fair and accurate.

Does the official text you are quoting from put the word "may" in capital letters and underline it ?  ::cryingtears:: ::doh:: ::cryingtears::

Elvisman

  • Guest
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #243 on: Tue Mar 20, 2012 - 17:02:24 »
[ so the phrase "those too MAY achieve eternal salvation" is fair and accurate.

Does the official text you are quoting from put the word "may" in capital letters and underline it ?  ::cryingtears:: ::doh:: ::cryingtears::

Oh, Paulus - I know you don't like me but do you have to throw your 2 cents in on everything I post?  ::crackup::
(emphasis, MINE) . . .

Offline Paulus

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1302
  • Manna: 138
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #244 on: Wed Mar 21, 2012 - 05:33:09 »
[ so the phrase "those too MAY achieve eternal salvation" is fair and accurate.

Does the official text you are quoting from put the word "may" in capital letters and underline it ?  ::cryingtears:: ::doh:: ::cryingtears::

Oh, Paulus - I know you don't like me but do you have to throw your 2 cents in on everything I post?  ::crackup::
(emphasis, MINE) . . .

On everything you post ?  ???

No just on the parts that are a bit iffy .  ::tippinghat::