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Author Topic: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)  (Read 28615 times)

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larry2

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #210 on: March 18, 2012, 07:22:35 AM »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #210 on: March 18, 2012, 07:22:35 AM »

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #211 on: March 18, 2012, 04:18:30 PM »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #211 on: March 18, 2012, 04:18:30 PM »

Offline AVZ

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #212 on: March 19, 2012, 02:17:13 AM »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.

Offline Paulus

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #213 on: March 19, 2012, 05:09:17 AM »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

I am uncertain as to whether the above reply # 210 is an attempted answer to the question I posed in reply # 209 .

If it is it does not answer my question . It simply states some points about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" .

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #213 on: March 19, 2012, 05:09:17 AM »

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #214 on: March 19, 2012, 06:23:07 AM »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.


You mean we don't you.    so what this means is we are saved by affiliation  and true faith in Christ means nothing.   I don't think thats completly true. I herad it said that since generations have passed and many protestants now have grown up faithfull to Christ yet ingnorant of the true church are not as culpable as their reformer fathers. Therefore they can be saved.

Any Catholic want shed light on that.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 06:54:45 AM by mclees8 »

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #214 on: March 19, 2012, 06:23:07 AM »



Offline AVZ

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #215 on: March 19, 2012, 08:28:04 AM »
The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it"

The first time I heard a Catholic quote this I said it sounds just like they tossed a dog a bone.

I did not know at the time there was another way to say it. In a dream that night I saw a man writing on paper the words condesending Pseudo authority. Since i never used these words in my vocabulary I did not know what it meant untill I looked them up. I knew then I was right. They did toss a dog a bone.

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.


You mean we don't you.    so what this means is we are saved by affiliation  and true faith in Christ means nothing.   I don't think thats completly true. I herad it said that since generations have passed and many protestants now have grown up faithfull to Christ yet ingnorant of the true church are not as culpable as their reformer fathers. Therefore they can be saved.

Any Catholic want shed light on that.

This is what Augustine wrote about ignorance:
"Although there is One present everywhere who in many ways through His creation beckons to hostile servants, instructs believers, comforts those who hope, encourages those who work, aids those who try, and hears those who pray, you are not considered at fault if you, against your will, are ignorant; however, if you are ignorant because you fail to ask, you are at fault."

Basically, if the material is available to you to know the teaching of the Catholic Church, but you do not query about it...you cannot claim ignorance.

Elvisman

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #216 on: March 19, 2012, 08:58:59 AM »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy.  



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??

larry2

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #217 on: March 19, 2012, 09:00:08 AM »

I have NEVER said you can’t be saved if you don’t convert to the Catholic Church.  The Church teaches that your chances are extremely slim – but it’s not impossible because of God’s infinite mercy. 



??? ??? ???  Where does "The Church" teach such doctrine ?


Let's get it straight as to the Catholic Church's view of those outside its control.

"Outside the Church No Salvation

A theological axiom which means that membership in the Church founded by Christ is necessary for the salvation of every individual man. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ and since many millions of men are not members thereof, it might be thought that these millions, according to Catholic theology, will inevitably be damned. Catholic theologians have commonly held that to many of those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it, and theologians explain the axiom "outside the Church no salvation" to allow for such cases.

The teaching on this theological axiom can be summed up in the following seven points

1.   The axiom is a revealed truth which must be believed by Catholics: but it must be understood in the sense in which the Church understands it, not according to the personal interpretation of any individual.

2.    The axiom means that Christ commands all men to be baptized into the Catholic Church and to remain therein, united to the pope, who is the Vicar of Christ on earth. Hence anyone knowing of this strict command of Christ and refusing to obey it cannot be saved.

3.    All men are not only commanded to join the Church, but Christ also has made the Catholic Church the means by which they are to enter into heaven.

4.   The Church is a necessary means of salvation, not only because of any intrinsic necessity (i.e., Christ could have arranged other means of salvation), but solely because it was established by Christ.

5.   In some circumstances, according to God's infinite mercy, salvation may be obtained by those who are not actually members of the Church but who have a wish or a desire to become members.

6.    The wish or the desire that can sometimes substitute for actual membership in the Church need not always be explicit (e.g., as it is in those who are taking instructions in preparation for baptism), but it may be explicit, that is, it may be included in the good disposition of a person who wishes to do God's will.

7.   For the desire of membership in the Church to be effective in insuring one's eternal salvation, it must be joined in perfect charity or love of God and the individual must have supernatural faith."


The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.

I am uncertain as to whether the above reply # 210 is an attempted answer to the question I posed in reply # 209 .

If it is it does not answer my question . It simply states some points about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" .



Hi Paulus, and it was not directed necessarily to you. I seemed to detect the debate concerning the Catholic Church's dogma on those not of their church and their salvation issues going in a direction not conducive to understanding their point of view. To me it is better to just paste what they do say concerning it. I'm not familiar with the term "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus." Thanks for your reply.

Elvisman

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #218 on: March 19, 2012, 09:04:27 AM »

Unfortunately for you (and for me), you are not even tossed a bone.
Since you participate on this board, you are well aware of the doctrine of the Catholic Church and her authorative command to join their ranks.

By not subjecting yourself to that command, you remain outside the Church by your own fault.
Hence it is impossible for you to be saved.

At least the dog got a bone. You...got nothing.

BOTH you and Mclees have been so tragically erroneous about Catholic positions on just about EVERYTHING, including Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus that I would NEVER accuse either one of you of being "knowledgeable" about the Catholic faith.

With God - there's ALWAYS hope . . .

larry2

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #219 on: March 19, 2012, 09:20:55 AM »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.

Elvisman

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #220 on: March 19, 2012, 09:36:36 AM »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.


YOUR position is based on the age-old problem with Protestantism:
You ALL must cherry-pick the Scriptures to sustain your false beliefs.

Let's take a look at John 9, where Jesus heals the Blind man.  Even AFTER seeing this  miracle, the Pharisees continue to reject Jesus.
What does Jesus tell them about TRUE blindness??  SPIRITUAL blindeness?

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

larry2

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #221 on: March 19, 2012, 09:55:11 AM »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.


YOUR position is based on the age-old problem with Protestantism:
You ALL must cherry-pick the Scriptures to sustain your false beliefs.

Let's take a look at John 9, where Jesus heals the Blind man.  Even AFTER seeing this  miracle, the Pharisees continue to reject Jesus.
What does Jesus tell them about TRUE blindness??  SPIRITUAL blindeness?

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

Offline forklift

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #222 on: March 19, 2012, 10:16:24 AM »

The statement "Those who are outside the Church through no fault of their own can be saved by doing God's will as they see it" certainly seems to negate the need of Hebrews 9:22, . . . without shedding of blood there is no remission.


HUH??
Where does Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus even come CLOSE to contradicting Heb 9:22??


It certainly is outside the confines of Hebrew 9:22. That anyone can "be saved by doing God's will as they see it" is just plain wrong. The very closest scripture to that thought I can think of is in Romans 1:12-15. But since we read in Romans 3:10, "As it is written: There is not any man just," there is little doubt of their destination and judgment.
 
12  For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.
13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
15  Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another.


YOUR position is based on the age-old problem with Protestantism:
You ALL must cherry-pick the Scriptures to sustain your false beliefs.

Let's take a look at John 9, where Jesus heals the Blind man.  Even AFTER seeing this  miracle, the Pharisees continue to reject Jesus.
What does Jesus tell them about TRUE blindness??  SPIRITUAL blindeness?

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.

larry2

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #223 on: March 19, 2012, 10:50:11 AM »

So you're taking that to mean a person never receiving the Lord Jesus because of ignorance is proclaimed righteous, saved, and going to heaven? If they're are none righteous according to Romans 3:10, how is that to come to pass?  Concerning the dead; those not in Christ of Apocalypse 20:13   . . they were judged every one according to their works. I will agree that a child not knowing good or bad is not judged until they consciously sin is innocent of judgment.
 


An old man from an Amazon tribe who has never heard of Jesus Christ, yet has lead an exemplary life, always done for others, and if, having heard the good news about Jesus, probably would have converted, can be saved by the Grace of God. To say otherwise limits the power of God.


Thanks Forklift, I agree if that old man never once fell from the straight and narrow. If they do, and they do for there none good, and they are judged. This is just my opinion, but I believe that with grace and light given, our reaction to it provides whether more light is shown. In John 16:8  And when He (The Holy Spirit) is come, He  will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. Titus 2:11 says, "For the grace of God our Saviour hath appeared to all men. Romans 1:20  For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Elvisman

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Re: The Anti-Catholic Bible (and other myths)
« Reply #224 on: March 19, 2012, 03:07:40 PM »
So you're taking that to mean a person never receiving the Lord Jesus because of ignorance is proclaimed righteous, saved, and going to heaven? If they're are none righteous according to Romans 3:10, how is that to come to pass?  Concerning the dead; those not in Christ of Apocalypse 20:13   . . they were judged every one according to their works. I will agree that a child not knowing good or bad is not judged until they consciously sin is innocent of judgment.

Thank you Larry for illustrating to EVERYBODY how you guys twist the Catholic position to say something that it DOESN'T.

The Church doesn't teach that the invincibly ignorant WILL go to heaven.  It teaches that they, too MAY achieve salvation.

As for Romans 3:10 - they can become righteous in Christ in the SAME way you or I can: 
By God's infinite GRACE
You sound like the Pharisees:

John 9:41
Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.