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Author Topic: The Catholic Church and Authority  (Read 2724 times)

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Offline winsome

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #35 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 06:21:50 »

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

 I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.


I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

Your truth in your opinion as a Proselytizing Roman Catholic.


Proselytizing? Is pointing out peceived errors proselytizing?

You seem to have no problem pointing out many, what you perceive to be errors in Catholic beliefs, even to the charge of blasphemy.
I'm pointing out some of the fundamental flaws in Roman Catholicism. Is that wrong?

This thread purports to preach about the Roman Catholic religion and its authority that, per you , is superior to all other Christian traditions. Therefore, the RCC history, its beliefs, the Catechism and the papal issues wherein that authority is claimed to derive its foundation or right to be in authority over the faithful, is relevant.

Furthermore, if the material I shared here is considered ignorance that is not my responsibility because those sources wherein the excerpts derive are Roman Catholic.


You are just demonstrating your ignorance of what the Catholic Church teaches.

You are making charges that have nothing to do with the authority of the Church, and seem more like an attempt to take the thread off topic.

Cannot you actually answer the points made in the OP?

Quote
There was no pope among them, there was no teaching of purgatory wherein Jesus sacrifice is marginalized and the repentant are not actually fully cleansed of their sins when they accept Jesus dying on the cross in their stead. Rather, the RCC purgatory doctrine teaches that the faithful have to be punished after life so that clinging sins are burned off of them until they can enter Heaven cleansed through their time occupying that abode, purgatory. 

 Keep in mind that there use to be a teaching of Limbo as well. But a former pope Benedict declared that was now closed.
 
 To continue. The Apostles did not teach necromancy. Worship and reverence of the dead. Nor did they teach the faithful to collect body parts from the dead that would be decreed saints, as all faithful are saints, so that those could be kept as relics. (An object of religious veneration, especially a piece of the body or a personal item of a saint.)
 
 
 Nor did Jesus teach that infants must be baptized so as to save them from their sins. In fact Jesus taught that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we must be as little children. If Children were sinners in Jesus eyes he would not have taught sinners that they are to be like sinners in order to see the kingdom of Heaven.
 
 Jesus did not teach image worship nor did he command that graven images of his apostles be erected among the faithful. (2nd commandment, Exodus 20:4 (New American Standard Bible) "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth)


Take the above. None of these are true arguments against what the Church teaches. Just hiding behind "Jesus didn't preach" is a subterfuge". Are you suggesting that Paul's teaching is to be ignored, or the other books of the NT, or the OT? Should we deduce nothing from scripture as a whole? Perhaps you only accept the gospels as scripture!

None of these are relevant to the OP.

None of these come from Catholic Church documents.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 06:25:59 by winsome »

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #35 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 06:21:50 »

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #36 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 06:29:24 »
Yes, I read the OP. And once again it is a wall of text designed to levy negative charges against the Protestant faith and by proxy Protestant members here.

Unlike that OP, when the subject line decrees the topic under discussion is the RCC and authority, my rebuttal contains links to Roman Catholic information sources.Therefore, arguing that the rebuttal to your OP is ignorance and not what Roman Catholics believe, given those RCC sources that speak of and to what the RCC teaches, speaks for itself and against your charge. 
Scriptural references speak for themselves if one has a Bible or access to a Bible website.

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #36 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 06:29:24 »

Offline AVZ

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #37 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:05:37 »
In another thread Buster D Body Crab made the same comment about "call no man father". I replied that we do not call our priests father but we address them as father. He said I was playing with semantics.
 
 But actually the problem with "call no man father" is the logical error of equivocation. Catholica has already shown how people are called father in the New Testament.
 
Here are some more examples:
“I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.” (1Jn 2:13)
 
“And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran” (Acts 7:2)

“Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!”(Mk 11:10)

Matthew repeatedly refers to fathers in Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6

Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21. Indeed in the same speech Jesus uses the word fathers (Mt 23:32).

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of addressing them as “father”.
 
Going back to equivocation (using the same word with different meanings in the same argument)
 
The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”. Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to “call” at poker), but a couple are relevant here:.
8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.
9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:-
“[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.”
 
According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).
 
It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13, Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.” 
 
This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:-
“[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.”
 
This is a different meaning of “call” to that used when Protestants say Catholics call their priests father. Following this understanding means there is no contradiction in scripture, or in Catholics “calling” their priests father.

Obviously in the term "call no man father" the reference is not made to a biological father, or a fore-father.
It would be right to write the term as "call no man Father" making the clear distinction that this is about a spiritual (non biological) father.

Whilst you could argue over the title "Father" for a priest...it becomes undeniably spiritual and filled with spiritual awe when people address the Pope as "Holy Father", which by the way is an official title for him.

Now if the Bible states "don't do that" then I keep on wondering why Catholics insist to do it anyway. What's the purpose?
Would the Pope be less Pope if you call him "Pope" or "Mister" or "Sir"?
Why the need to strip the title "Holy Father" away from God and drop it on a human being of which history has shown so many of them being neither holy or a father for all that matters.


Offline winsome

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #38 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:11:21 »
Yes, I read the OP. And once again it is a wall of text designed to levy negative charges against the Protestant faith and by proxy Protestant members here.

Unlike that OP, when the subject line decrees the topic under discussion is the RCC and authority, my rebuttal contains links to Roman Catholic information sources.Therefore, arguing that the rebuttal to your OP is ignorance and not what Roman Catholics believe, given those RCC sources that speak of and to what the RCC teaches, speaks for itself and against your charge. 
Scriptural references speak for themselves if one has a Bible or access to a Bible website.

Do you call a link to Freedictionary.com a link to authoritative Catholic sources?

Buster, I've come across people who, instead of addressing the OP, post a whole load to negative anti-catholic stuff that they've culled from anti-catholic web sites.

They seem to be trying to either:
a) tie the Catholic up for hours or days answering their points
or
b) deflect the thread from the topic.
or
c) try & provoke the Catholic by going as close to flaming rules as they can.

Of course I'm not suggesting that is happening here.

I can't put you on ignore in case you actually act as a moderator but in future I shall just ignore your posts.



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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #38 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:11:21 »

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #39 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:14:46 »
It is obvious you don't read my posts. The free dictionary links were to define "relic".

The other links attached to excerpts are to Roman Catholic information sources.

You object to RCC sources being used to rebut your OP that is not at all linked to any source that supports your contention regarding the RCC and its authority. Then you take issue with someone who uses sources derived from RCC information sites that you have clearly not read.

Not a thing I have said in my rebuttal is false. When the RCC information sources back me up you are the one with the credibility issue.

Furthermore, I am not flaming. It is not flaming to use credible sources in rebuttal. You however, are as close to that line as possible. And repeatedly as you attempt to renounce Protestantism and avow the supremacy of the RCC.  You are not alone in that agenda. When you bring the charges do not complain when you are rebuffed.

You seek to what here? Proclaim the Roman Catholic church is superior and has authority over all Christendom? And then expect not to receive a reply that disagrees?

When what the RCC teaches, and its linked to show proof, warrants the claim from you and others like Catholica that that is not what the RCC teaches, there's an inescapable issue there. When the RCC links prove that is indeed what the RCC teaches those who argue it is not are suspect in their place of knowledge.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:18:55 by Buster D Body Crab »

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #39 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:14:46 »



Offline winsome

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #40 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:18:52 »
In another thread Buster D Body Crab made the same comment about "call no man father". I replied that we do not call our priests father but we address them as father. He said I was playing with semantics.
 
 But actually the problem with "call no man father" is the logical error of equivocation. Catholica has already shown how people are called father in the New Testament.
 
Here are some more examples:
“I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning.” (1Jn 2:13)
 
“And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran” (Acts 7:2)

“Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!”(Mk 11:10)

Matthew repeatedly refers to fathers in Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6

Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21. Indeed in the same speech Jesus uses the word fathers (Mt 23:32).

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of addressing them as “father”.
 
Going back to equivocation (using the same word with different meanings in the same argument)
 
The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb “call”. Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to “call” at poker), but a couple are relevant here:.
8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.
9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:-
“[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc.”
 
According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated “call” in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don’t understand what that is!).
 
It’s the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13, Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32. “For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners.” 
 
This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:-
“[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention.”
 
This is a different meaning of “call” to that used when Protestants say Catholics call their priests father. Following this understanding means there is no contradiction in scripture, or in Catholics “calling” their priests father.


Obviously in the term "call no man father" the reference is not made to a biological father, or a fore-father.
It would be right to write the term as "call no man Father" making the clear distinction that this is about a spiritual (non biological) father.

Whilst you could argue over the title "Father" for a priest...it becomes undeniably spiritual and filled with spiritual awe when people address the Pope as "Holy Father", which by the way is an official title for him.

Now if the Bible states "don't do that" then I keep on wondering why Catholics insist to do it anyway. What's the purpose?
Would the Pope be less Pope if you call him "Pope" or "Mister" or "Sir"?
Why the need to strip the title "Holy Father" away from God and drop it on a human being of which history has shown so many of them being neither holy or a father for all that matters.


Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #41 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:22:29 »
None of those reasons overcomes Jesus Christ and his own command in Matthew 23:10.

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #42 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 07:24:13 »
After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-


And you were arguing with me about God calling us holy.  Did you learn something in that exchange or were you just being cantankerous?

Offline AVZ

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #43 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 08:07:10 »
Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-


If indeed this argument is what the RCC uses to call the Pope "Holy Father", then by that same argument all men in the RCC are "Holy Fathers"
In fact, by this argument I would also be a "Holy Father"...maybe I should ask my kids to start addressing me that way...

Of course your argument does not hold ground because the RCC does NOT call all those fathers in the church who are Christians "Holy Fathers" and in fact one would be held in contempt if one did.

Now in your reply I see you call your self "his holy people" meaning you are the holy people of the Pope.
See, thats exactly what the Bible text "do not call any man Father" is agitating against.
What you should be stating is that you are "His holy people" meaning you are the holy people under Christ, and with that you should call God "Holy Father".

See, you belong to Christ and NOT to the Pope because you are bought with a price.
Christ paid with His blood and now you belong to Him...and not to the "holy father" in Rome.
The Pope never bought you or died for you or suffered for you or shed his blood for you...hence you do NOT belong to the Pope.

Offline winsome

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #44 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 08:25:14 »
Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-


If indeed this argument is what the RCC uses to call the Pope "Holy Father", then by that same argument all men in the RCC are "Holy Fathers"
In fact, by this argument I would also be a "Holy Father"...maybe I should ask my kids to start addressing me that way...


I don't see why. The title is applied to one man in a particular situation - that of having been appointed by Christ as Universal Shepherd of His flock.

Of course your argument does not hold ground because the RCC does NOT call all those fathers in the church who are Christians "Holy Fathers" and in fact one would be held in contempt if one did.


All men are not appointed by Christ to be the Universal Shepherds of Christ's flock.


Now in your reply I see you call your self "his holy people" meaning you are the holy people of the Pope.
See, thats exactly what the Bible text "do not call any man Father" is agitating against.
What you should be stating is that you are "His holy people" meaning you are the holy people under Christ, and with that you should call God "Holy Father".

See, you belong to Christ and NOT to the Pope because you are bought with a price.
Christ paid with His blood and now you belong to Him...and not to the "holy father" in Rome.
The Pope never bought you or died for you or suffered for you or shed his blood for you...hence you do NOT belong to the Pope.


 Jesus refers to himself as a shepherd
I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

He has a flock
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. (Jn 10:16)

He is the successor of King David whom God promised would look after his sheep (Ez 34:23)

Then in John 21:15-17 he asks Peter to be the shepherd of his sheep
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17).

Jesus is still the good shepherd, the sheep still belong to him, but he is giving them into Peter’s charge to look after on his behalf. They are "his" in the sense he has been given resposibility for looking after them here on earth.


Jesus has said about his sheep “they will hear my voice”. He also said to those to whom he gave authority “whoever listens to you listens to me” (Lk 10:16). So when Peter (and his successor) speaks under authority of Jesus then we hear Jesus our good shepherd.
 
 

Offline AVZ

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #45 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 08:38:31 »
Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-


If indeed this argument is what the RCC uses to call the Pope "Holy Father", then by that same argument all men in the RCC are "Holy Fathers"
In fact, by this argument I would also be a "Holy Father"...maybe I should ask my kids to start addressing me that way...


I don't see why. The title is applied to one man in a particular situation - that of having been appointed by Christ as Universal Shepherd of His flock.

Of course your argument does not hold ground because the RCC does NOT call all those fathers in the church who are Christians "Holy Fathers" and in fact one would be held in contempt if one did.


All men are not appointed by Christ to be the Universal Shepherds of Christ's flock.


Now in your reply I see you call your self "his holy people" meaning you are the holy people of the Pope.
See, thats exactly what the Bible text "do not call any man Father" is agitating against.
What you should be stating is that you are "His holy people" meaning you are the holy people under Christ, and with that you should call God "Holy Father".

See, you belong to Christ and NOT to the Pope because you are bought with a price.
Christ paid with His blood and now you belong to Him...and not to the "holy father" in Rome.
The Pope never bought you or died for you or suffered for you or shed his blood for you...hence you do NOT belong to the Pope.


 Jesus refers to himself as a shepherd
I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

He has a flock
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. (Jn 10:16)

He is the successor of King David whom God promised would look after his sheep (Ez 34:23)

Then in John 21:15-17 he asks Peter to be the shepherd of his sheep
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17).

Jesus is still the good shepherd, the sheep still belong to him, but he is giving them into Peter’s charge to look after on his behalf. They are "his" in the sense he has been given resposibility for looking after them here on earth.


Jesus has said about his sheep “they will hear my voice”. He also said to those to whom he gave authority “whoever listens to you listens to me” (Lk 10:16). So when Peter (and his successor) speaks under authority of Jesus then we hear Jesus our good shepherd.


No Winsome, I am not going to argue about the position of the Pope. We have done that plenty of times in the past.
I want to take you up on your argumentation.

Earlier in this post someone aid that calling a priest "Father" is not correct.
You then came with the argumentation that there is nothing wrong with that by summarizing a whole list of biological (fore)fathers in the Bible.
I am a biological father too. Hence with your argumentation I would be correct to ask from my children to call me "Father".
And since I am also raising my children in the faith, I also serve as a spiritual father to them.

Your argumentation to calling someone "holy" too is an argumentation that can be applied to any Christian.
The Bible verses you applied make no differentiation, and tells us that all believers are holy regardless of rank and position.
So by that argumentation, I too am "Holy".

Then put those two together "Holy" + "Father"...and to my children (and the rest of the world) I am a "Holy Father".

Even if I were to follow your train of thought, I could never come to the conclusion that the Pope is the only "Holy Father".
First of all the Pope is not a biological father, or any priest.
So you are only left with the spiritual.
The Bible tells us there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God.

You can also not exclusively attribute the term "holy" to the Pope.
Just read back to the Bible verses you posted...the term "holy" applies to all believers.

You clearly are in contradiction or violation of your own argumentation because the Bible verses you brought up never apply to a "universally appointed singular human being".
That's the claim the RCC makes...and its unsound argumentation.

Offline winsome

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #46 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 09:03:23 »
Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is "holy." In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, "and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is "holy" (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called "holy" in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other "holy ones" or "saints," called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, "it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’"

Since we are his holy people, and his people are the Church, it is fitting that the head of his holy people be called Holy Father—not because of his own merit, but because Christ died for him and for the Church that he leads on earth.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/why-do-catholics-call-the-pope-the-holy-father-if-the-bible-says-only-persons-of-the-


If indeed this argument is what the RCC uses to call the Pope "Holy Father", then by that same argument all men in the RCC are "Holy Fathers"
In fact, by this argument I would also be a "Holy Father"...maybe I should ask my kids to start addressing me that way...


I don't see why. The title is applied to one man in a particular situation - that of having been appointed by Christ as Universal Shepherd of His flock.

Of course your argument does not hold ground because the RCC does NOT call all those fathers in the church who are Christians "Holy Fathers" and in fact one would be held in contempt if one did.


All men are not appointed by Christ to be the Universal Shepherds of Christ's flock.


Now in your reply I see you call your self "his holy people" meaning you are the holy people of the Pope.
See, thats exactly what the Bible text "do not call any man Father" is agitating against.
What you should be stating is that you are "His holy people" meaning you are the holy people under Christ, and with that you should call God "Holy Father".

See, you belong to Christ and NOT to the Pope because you are bought with a price.
Christ paid with His blood and now you belong to Him...and not to the "holy father" in Rome.
The Pope never bought you or died for you or suffered for you or shed his blood for you...hence you do NOT belong to the Pope.


 Jesus refers to himself as a shepherd
I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

He has a flock
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. (Jn 10:16)

He is the successor of King David whom God promised would look after his sheep (Ez 34:23)

Then in John 21:15-17 he asks Peter to be the shepherd of his sheep
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17).

Jesus is still the good shepherd, the sheep still belong to him, but he is giving them into Peter’s charge to look after on his behalf. They are "his" in the sense he has been given resposibility for looking after them here on earth.


Jesus has said about his sheep “they will hear my voice”. He also said to those to whom he gave authority “whoever listens to you listens to me” (Lk 10:16). So when Peter (and his successor) speaks under authority of Jesus then we hear Jesus our good shepherd.


No Winsome, I am not going to argue about the position of the Pope. We have done that plenty of times in the past.
I want to take you up on your argumentation.

Earlier in this post someone aid that calling a priest "Father" is not correct.
You then came with the argumentation that there is nothing wrong with that by summarizing a whole list of biological (fore)fathers in the Bible.
I am a biological father too. Hence with your argumentation I would be correct to ask from my children to call me "Father".
And since I am also raising my children in the faith, I also serve as a spiritual father to them.

Your argumentation to calling someone "holy" too is an argumentation that can be applied to any Christian.
The Bible verses you applied make no differentiation, and tells us that all believers are holy regardless of rank and position.
So by that argumentation, I too am "Holy".

Then put those two together "Holy" + "Father"...and to my children (and the rest of the world) I am a "Holy Father".

Even if I were to follow your train of thought, I could never come to the conclusion that the Pope is the only "Holy Father".
First of all the Pope is not a biological father, or any priest.
So you are only left with the spiritual.
The Bible tells us there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God.

You can also not exclusively attribute the term "holy" to the Pope.
Just read back to the Bible verses you posted...the term "holy" applies to all believers.

You clearly are in contradiction or violation of your own argumentation because the Bible verses you brought up never apply to a "universally appointed singular human being".
That's the claim the RCC makes...and its unsound argumentation.


 If you read Catholica's post you will see that he dealt with the spiritual father aspect. I added in some examples of men being called father. One was spiritual, the rest biological. Christ's command did not distinguish.
 
My argument that is was not wrong was based on the mis-use of the word 'call'. That it is being misused is shown by the list of people whom scripture calls father. We know that scripture does not contradict itself. The misuse is equivocation.
 
I don’t know that the Catholic Church claims that there can only be one Holy Father.
 The Orthodox call many of their men saints “Holy Father”.  I've never heard the Catholic Church objecting to that.
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Holy_Fathers/
 
If you want you children to call you holy father then that is up to you. Why should that stop Catholics calling the Pope “Holy Father” ..


Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”. 
 
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 09:06:46 by winsome »

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #47 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 09:18:36 »
Jesus said "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age".  See any of the 12 around anymore?  Maybe Jesus meant more than just the twelve.

And you base you faith in a religion on that "maybe"?  Interesting.

I used a colloquialism to try to address you as more of a person and brother but it seems that that backfired.

Beyond that, is Jesus not with them still? I am confident that they are He are together in heaven even now.

Is that how you interpret that verse?  That it just applies to the apostles?  Perhaps Jesus isn't with all of us then, even to the end of the age.  That is what you are implying now.


Buster D Body Crab

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #48 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 09:24:51 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

And to put Matthew 23:9 into context) John 4:21-24  (RSV)
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 09:47:11 by Buster D Body Crab »

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #49 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 09:50:03 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

The literal meaning of this passage and the hyperbole that Jesus is speaking with has been lost on you.

What did the Jews understand it meant to call a man 'Father' or 'Rabbi' or 'teacher'?

There were at least two schools of Judaism in existence at that time; one was the school of Hillel and the other was the school of Shammai.  These schools of thought were opposing each other.  But people would identify under one or the other and that is how they would go about their lives.

What Jesus was actually meaning when he said that phrase is that the apostles should unite under one school of teaching and not go off and have their own schools each, and that united teaching should be from the teaching of Jesus, who was teaching the true teachings of God the Father.  And it has nothing to do with referring to another human being as "father".

But let's imagine for a moment that it did mean that no other person should be referred to as "father".  What are the ramifications?

Well, for starters, the relationship of father with one's own biological "father" no longer remains a reference point toward understanding our relationship with our heavenly Father.  If my own male biological ancestor I should not call 'father' then how am I to understand what calling God "Father" means?  Calling God "Father" then loses all those connotations that go with the "Father" relationship.

Second, we see verses in scripture that defy said "rule" of Jesus, making the teachings of the apostles who wrote them or said them highly suspect.  Are you going to trust Paul who referred to himself as a spiritual father and called Timothy his spiritual son several times to be a faithful witness of the Gospel?

Third, in America Protestants used to call their ministers "Father".  That is, until the Irish Catholics arrived, who (fairly uniquely among Catholics) called priests Father.  And because there was so much anti-Catholicism in America when Catholics started arriving en masse, Protestants stopped using the title "Father" and soon developed the polemic denouncing the title as we see today.

Do we call people "Mister"?  Mister is another form of the word "Master" derived from the German "Meister".  Is Jesus your one Master?  Then why do you call people "mister"?

The whole argument against the use of the Title "Father" is so inane.  No one confuses "priest so-and-so" and the source of divine teaching "the Father" in the Catholic Church, because the Catholic faith is both centralized and historical, going back to the apostles. 

I sometimes wonder, however, if what non-Catholic Bible-only Christians do is not more like what Jesus warned against, which literally is a warning for the apostles to remain united under one teacher and not to form different sects, especially with different teachings, which is how non-Catholic Bible-only "denominations" are "organized".  It is precisely that situation which Jesus was warning the apostles against.


Offline Alan

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #50 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:00:48 »

Matthew 23:8-10
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.
Quote from: Reformation Study Bible
23:8–10 In forbidding the use of the titles “Rabbi” (v. 8), “father” (v. 9), and “instructors” (lit. “leaders,” v. 10), Jesus does not prohibit organization or the use of all titles in the church (cf. Acts 20:17; 1 Cor. 9:1; 1 Tim. 3:1, 2, 8, 12; Titus 1:5–7). His warning is against the temptation to accord human leaders the authority and prerogatives that belong to God alone—a temptation here exemplified by the use of pretentious forms of address.


As well as the above, it is possible that False God's may be included in that explanation.

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #51 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:01:07 »
Jesus said "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age".  See any of the 12 around anymore?  Maybe Jesus meant more than just the twelve.

And you base you faith in a religion on that "maybe"?  Interesting.

I used a colloquialism to try to address you as more of a person and brother but it seems that that backfired.

Beyond that, is Jesus not with them still? I am confident that they are He are together in heaven even now.

Is that how you interpret that verse?  That it just applies to the apostles?  Perhaps Jesus isn't with all of us then, even to the end of the age.  That is what you are implying now.

Are you suggesting that Jesus isn't with us?  If we have received the gift [indwelling] of the Holy Spirit, Paul says that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.  And he says we have clothed ourselves with Christ.  But I also believe that Jesus Christ is in heaven seated at the right of God the Father.  Perhaps that is a part of what meant by omnipresence. And I believe that the apostles are in heaven as well.

I have no problem with the statement or the concept of Jesus being with the apostles or us even to the end of the age.

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #52 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:06:47 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

The literal meaning of this passage and the hyperbole that Jesus is speaking with has been lost on you....


You refer to a literal meaning of the passage in verse 9 and then state that Jesus,in what you've said is a literal passage first,  is using hyperbole. You've just countered your own proclamation. Hyperbole is exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.


You cannot dismiss Jesus teachings with such contradictory charges  and therein seek to dismiss the import of the passage and Jesus' command in Matthew 23:9. 

edit for language

 
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:21:49 by Buster D Body Crab »

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #53 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:25:26 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

And to put Matthew 23:9 into context) John 4:21-24  (RSV)
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Amen Buster. This whole discourse Matt 23 about the pride of the Pharisees is ignored, trivialized, and explained away by Catholic apologists. They make the teaching of Christ a mockery. They play up the pope by using the instruction of Jesus to Peter to feed His sheep. I never argue about this. It is the using of this verse to justify a pope who sits on a throne dressed as Monarch with men bowing and kissing His ring. They want to call this earthly man Holy Father. Exalting with adoration like God upon the earth. Every time I picture this in my mind I want to vomit. 

Jesus did say to Peter three times to feed his sheep but lets see what he did not say to Him. He did not say go change your garments for religious robes of monarchs and to be exalted above the congregation ignoring the Lords teach in Matt 23. More over not one of the twelve ignored this teaching about being exalted above any one. 

This whole pompous parade is a sham and affront to Christ and all He taught about be abase. I don't believe any one should allow himself to be called Holy Father.  Do you Catholics believe that Peter would have allowed anyone to call him that.   What do you say Catholica -- Winsome   Is there anything Christ taught his apostles that any of the apostles  would sit as a pope on an earthly throne and to be called Holly Father?
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:28:10 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #54 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:38:12 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

The literal meaning of this passage and the hyperbole that Jesus is speaking with has been lost on you....


You refer to a literal meaning of the passage in verse 9 and then state that Jesus,in what you've said is a literal passage first,  is using hyperbole. You've just countered your own proclamation. Hyperbole is exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.


You cannot dismiss Jesus teachings with such contradictory charges  and therein seek to dismiss the import of the passage and Jesus' command in Matthew 23:9. 

edit for language

The "literal meaning" is the point that someone is trying to make when they say something.

When someone says that "it is raining cats and dogs", the literal meaning is that it is raining very hard.  If someone took that phrase TOO literally, or better, "literalistically", then if they walked outside they would fully expect to be pelted with animals of the canine and feline variety.

I am not dismissing what Jesus said.  I am "using scripture to interpret scripture".  The Holy Spirit elsewhere in scripture inspired many other people to use the term "father" regarding spiritual relationships.  Therefore saying that Jesus said "call no man father" as a prohibition against using the title "father" is taking what he said "too literally" or better, "literalistically".  The hyperbole in this verse is hyperbole that has a point, that the teaching needs to come from God, and we should be unified in it, not taking pride that so and so taught this or that, to avoid divisions, to avoid pride, and accept that Jesus is the source of divine revelation from the father, and not to separate into factions.

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #55 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:42:15 »
Jesus said "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age".  See any of the 12 around anymore?  Maybe Jesus meant more than just the twelve.

And you base you faith in a religion on that "maybe"?  Interesting.

I used a colloquialism to try to address you as more of a person and brother but it seems that that backfired.

Beyond that, is Jesus not with them still? I am confident that they are He are together in heaven even now.

Is that how you interpret that verse?  That it just applies to the apostles?  Perhaps Jesus isn't with all of us then, even to the end of the age.  That is what you are implying now.

Are you suggesting that Jesus isn't with us?  If we have received the gift [indwelling] of the Holy Spirit, Paul says that we are in Christ and Christ is in us.  And he says we have clothed ourselves with Christ.  But I also believe that Jesus Christ is in heaven seated at the right of God the Father.  Perhaps that is a part of what meant by omnipresence. And I believe that the apostles are in heaven as well.

I have no problem with the statement or the concept of Jesus being with the apostles or us even to the end of the age.

On the contrary, I am arguing that Jesus is with us.  With the apostles and their successors the same way that Jesus was with his apostles even after he ascended.  He is with lay people in a different way; however it was the commission to the apostles to "go forth and teach".  To think that there would not remain a central teaching authority to this day is, well, a thought child of the Protestant revolution.  The apostles were given that sacred duty in a centralized way.  That same centralization that Jesus intended for the church and safeguarded in the apostles, he safeguards the same way to this day, and even to the end of the age.

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #56 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 10:54:58 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

The literal meaning of this passage and the hyperbole that Jesus is speaking with has been lost on you....


You refer to a literal meaning of the passage in verse 9 and then state that Jesus,in what you've said is a literal passage first,  is using hyperbole. You've just countered your own proclamation. Hyperbole is exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.


You cannot dismiss Jesus teachings with such contradictory charges  and therein seek to dismiss the import of the passage and Jesus' command in Matthew 23:9. 

edit for language

The "literal meaning" is the point that someone is trying to make when they say something.

When someone says that "it is raining cats and dogs", the literal meaning is that it is raining very hard.  If someone took that phrase TOO literally, or better, "literalistically", then if they walked outside they would fully expect to be pelted with animals of the canine and feline variety.

I am not dismissing what Jesus said.  I am "using scripture to interpret scripture".  The Holy Spirit elsewhere in scripture inspired many other people to use the term "father" regarding spiritual relationships.  Therefore saying that Jesus said "call no man father" as a prohibition against using the title "father" is taking what he said "too literally" or better, "literalistically".  The hyperbole in this verse is hyperbole that has a point, that the teaching needs to come from God, and we should be unified in it, not taking pride that so and so taught this or that, to avoid divisions, to avoid pride, and accept that Jesus is the source of divine revelation from the father, and not to separate into factions.

What you are dismissing here is a man who sits exalting  himself on a throne like a king moreover God upon the earth being called Holy Father totally ignoring Christ teaching.  I call My own dad Father but I would not call any earthly man Holy Father. It says we are to be holy but do you know any one who thinks he is worthy to be called holy let alone Holy Father.  To think one is supreme over the earth.

You always trivialize and explain away.      This whole exalted order is coming to Judgment   

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #57 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 12:03:45 »

 

Finally the Bible does not tell us “there is only one spiritual Father...and that is God”.
That is a blatant untruth. Matthew 23:9 (RSV)And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Is the absolute proof of that.
This is the danger of letting errant teachings go unaddressed. If they are allowed to stand they risk peoples souls.

And to put Matthew 23:9 into context) John 4:21-24  (RSV)
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Amen Buster. This whole discourse Matt 23 about the pride of the Pharisees is ignored, trivialized, and explained away by Catholic apologists. They make the teaching of Christ a mockery. They play up the pope by using the instruction of Jesus to Peter to feed His sheep. I never argue about this. It is the using of this verse to justify a pope who sits on a throne dressed as Monarch with men bowing and kissing His ring. They want to call this earthly man Holy Father. Exalting with adoration like God upon the earth. Every time I picture this in my mind I want to vomit. 

Jesus did say to Peter three times to feed his sheep but lets see what he did not say to Him. He did not say go change your garments for religious robes of monarchs and to be exalted above the congregation ignoring the Lords teach in Matt 23. More over not one of the twelve ignored this teaching about being exalted above any one. 

This whole pompous parade is a sham and affront to Christ and all He taught about be abase. I don't believe any one should allow himself to be called Holy Father.  Do you Catholics believe that Peter would have allowed anyone to call him that.   What do you say Catholica -- Winsome   Is there anything Christ taught his apostles that any of the apostles  would sit as a pope on an earthly throne and to be called Holly Father?


Been there! Done that!

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/of-robes-and-rings-and-other-things/

Offline doorknocker

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #58 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 12:24:54 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 12:28:36 by doorknocker »

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #59 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 12:39:14 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.



 ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::

Buster D Body Crab

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #60 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 12:48:45 »
 ::amen!::
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Offline Brother Johan

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #61 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 14:56:09 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.



Amen to that!

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #62 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 14:59:57 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that, a perfect description of the Catholic Church before there were any divisions in Christianity requiring the need to specify that the Church is Catholic.  If you omit the part about the names, that is the same as the Catholic Church is today.
« Last Edit: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 15:31:51 by Catholica »

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #63 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:20:28 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that, a perfect description of the Catholic Church before there were any divisions in Christianity requiring the need to specify that the Church is Catholic.  If you omit the part about the names, that is the same as the Catholic Church is today.

Its a perfect description of all of Gods children, His body, The Bride of Christ, regardless of their denominations or churches.   

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #64 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:27:11 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that, a perfect description of the Catholic Church before there were any divisions in Christianity requiring the need to specify that the Church is Catholic.  If you omit the part about the names, that is the same as the Catholic Church is today.

Its a perfect description of all of Gods children, His body, The Bride of Christ, regardless of their denominations or churches.   

Exactly.  Everyone who has received the Holy Spirit through water baptism and remains in a state of grace.   ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::

Offline kensington

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #65 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:36:21 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #66 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:46:14 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

If this is a "statement of truth" then yes, it is wrong.

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #67 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:50:45 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that, a perfect description of the Catholic Church before there were any divisions in Christianity requiring the need to specify that the Church is Catholic.  If you omit the part about the names, that is the same as the Catholic Church is today.

Its a perfect description of all of Gods children, His body, The Bride of Christ, regardless of their denominations or churches.   

Exactly.  Everyone who has received the Holy Spirit through water baptism and remains in a state of grace.   ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::


Its for those who have given their lives to Jesus and had the HS come to live in them on their rebirth. Once we are adopted as His children we are His, we then have a believers baptism to confirm that fact. No babies sprinkling will do that, and and its not up to us and our religious works to remain in that 'state of Grace', its because of HIM that we are already in his love and forgiveness and Grace.  ::clappingoverhead::

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #68 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:54:07 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

I think we should all need to be questioning and searching things all the time. For example, many like the JW's and the Mormons believe they are part of His church, in fact they think they ARE His church(which is one way of telling they are deceived).

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Catholic Church and Authority
« Reply #69 on: Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:54:43 »
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that, a perfect description of the Catholic Church before there were any divisions in Christianity requiring the need to specify that the Church is Catholic.  If you omit the part about the names, that is the same as the Catholic Church is today.

Its a perfect description of all of Gods children, His body, The Bride of Christ, regardless of their denominations or churches.   

Exactly.  Everyone who has received the Holy Spirit through water baptism and remains in a state of grace.   ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::


Its for those who have given their lives to Jesus and had the HS come to live in them on their rebirth. Once we are adopted as His children we are His, we then have a believers baptism to confirm that fact. No babies sprinkling will do that, and and its not up to us and our religious works to remain in that 'state of Grace', its because of HIM that we are already in his love and forgiveness and Grace.  ::clappingoverhead::

God can save babies through baptism too!  There is no limit to whom God can save!   ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::

God permits us to show him we love him through our good works, and through that we can merit rewards in heaven.  He is also just and chastises us when we sin so that we might turn back to him and be saved.  What a merciful and just God we have!  We adore thee oh Lord!   ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead:: ::clappingoverhead::