The Church That Jesus Started

[phoebe]

If only the Catholic Church were the church that Peter founded you might have a point.

If you look past the rewriting of history that the ROMAN catholic church is so fond of and glean the truth, you will see that the Romans are nothing more than impostors.

If the legitimacy that the Catholic Church claims were challenged in a court of law.. the eastern orthodox churches would win the law suit hands down.

If you ever bother to get an education in CHristian history, you'll find Jesus started the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church, complete with the office of Pope. You won't find any One Holy Orthodox and Apostolic Church.

The Orthodox abandoned the Catholic Church and the office of Pope.

You make yourself look foolish by opining about subjects you never bothered to learn

 

[zoonance]

I do appreciate the Catholic perspective on their Thread!  Dialogue (not character assination) is good.  Thanks for sharing your insight.

[trifecta]

If only the Catholic Church were the church that Peter founded you might have a point.

If you look past the rewriting of history that the ROMAN catholic church is so fond of and glean the truth, you will see that the Romans are nothing more than impostors.

If the legitimacy that the Catholic Church claims were challenged in a court of law.. the eastern orthodox churches would win the law suit hands down.

Thank you, Tantor you are indeed right in that last sentence!

If you ever bother to get an education in CHristian history, you'll find Jesus started the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church,

bibleteacher,  close but no cigar.  Your education not quite there yet, but hang in there.  The last sentence above is true, but . . .

complete with the office of Pope.

No, the term pope comes along later--originally with St. Anathasius --of Alexandria!   But that is a technicality.   Your are correct in that the Bishops of Rome go back to the beginning--but they held a position of honor, not authority in the early church.

You won't find any One Holy Orthodox and Apostolic Church.

But Tantor is right, you won't find the word Roman in the creed as well.  And yes, we do consider ourselves Catholic in the sense of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.   What was the name of the faith in the early church?   The Orthodox faith-- you got the term Catholic in the Great Schism, we got the word Orthodox.   It's just a word--don't get hung up on it.  

Where does the term One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church come from?  The Nicean Creed, which you all changed unilaterally.

The Orthodox abandoned the Catholic Church and the office of Pope.

Guilty! and we don't regret it.   Remember too that the Coptic Church also has a pope.  The Pope (of Rome) having universal authority over the whole church?   Yeah, we couldn't go for that.  The early church didn't either.   bibleteacher and Tantor: Come back to that church, the church that Jesus started.   The Orthodox Church

Blessings to you (both)!

[ozell]

I quoted Jesus own words, yet you simply ignore what Jesus said about building His Church, and continue to press on your insinuation about some other church.

Jesus said: Mt:16:18:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I've noticed that you people simply ignore most of the Bible because you don't agree with it.

BT

why did the Lord build his Church with Peter when it was already established in the wilderness with Israel?

take note

 Peter is a Israelite the descendant of the inhabitants of the first church

[wayne]

The Bible plainly reads that Jesus started His Own Church 2000 years ago. In fact, the Church is mentioned more than 100 times in the Bible.

Mt:16:18:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus said those who refuse to obey His CHurch are to be considered heathens

Mt:18:17:
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Priests were ordained in every Church

Acts:14:23:
And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.

The Sacrament of Confirmation was practiced by the Church

Acts:16:5:
And the churches were confirmed in faith and increased in number daily.

The Bishops ruled the Church of God in the first century, just as they do today.

Acts:20:28:
Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Church is the pillar of truth

1Tm:3:15:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

hey, you keep saying .."the church" . which church are you talking about? what church did god establish? someone came to my house and told me that jehovas witness was the only true church. so i joined them

[broach972]

The Pope (of Rome) having universal authority over the whole church?   Yeah, we couldn't go for that.  The early church didn't either.   bibleteacher and Tantor: Come back to that church, the church that Jesus started.   The Orthodox Church

Trifecta, you can be down right halarious at times...

If only history could support your claim...

[DCR]

If only history could support your claim...

Like Scripture, "history" is often the subject of interpretation. 

Naturally, the Eastern Orthdox would have a slightly different view of the history compared to the Western (Roman) Catholic Church.

[Tantor]

I quoted Jesus own words, yet you simply ignore what Jesus said about building His Church, and continue to press on your insinuation about some other church.

Jesus said: Mt:16:18:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I've noticed that you people simply ignore most of the Bible because you don't agree with it.

BT

why did the Lord build his Church with Peter when it was already established in the wilderness with Israel?

take note

 Peter is a Israelite the descendant of the inhabitants of the first church

The tabernacle is never referenced as the church.. the tabernacle was the dwelling place of God so that he could be with his people.

When Jesus died and was ressurected.. the curtain hiding the Holy of Holies was rent top to bottom because now instead of God dwelling in the tabernacle (temple) he dwells in the hearts over everyone he elected to be saved from the foundation of the world.

[trifecta]

The Pope (of Rome) having universal authority over the whole church?   Yeah, we couldn't go for that.  The early church didn't either.   bibleteacher and Tantor: Come back to that church, the church that Jesus started.   The Orthodox Church

Trifecta, you can be down right halarious at times...

If only history could support your claim...

Broach, you disappoint me.   

Here is some evidence from a non-Orthodox source:

This is from Henry Chadwick's book The Early Church (New York:Penguin, p. 237):
"By the end of the second century, Pope Victor insisted, in a manner which other churches thought autocratic, that all churches, including those of the Greek East, should observe Easter on the same date as that determined by the Church of Rome.  But before the third century there was no call for a sustained, theoretical justification of this leadership.  All were brethren, but the Church of Rome was accepted as the first among equals."

If the church of Rome had such universal authority, why didn't the east follow the Bishop of Rome about the dating of Easter?

If the Pope had  such authority, why were two Popes cited for heretical beliefs in two ecumenical councils?  Why did Rome initially oppose the 2nd ecumenical council in Constantinople? If Rome had such authority why did the ecumenical councils exist in the first place? Why didn't he rest of the church just follow the opinion of the Bishop of Rome?

On the contrary, history supports the contention that Rome did not have universal authority. The RCC historians have tried to revise history to support their contention.

I've presented facts, you just laughed at me.  You can do better.

[trifecta]

Hi DCR, thanks for posting.

If only history could support your claim...

Like Scripture, "history" is often the subject of interpretation. 

Maybe so, but history is important.  If the death and resurrection of Christ were not historic fact, we would have no faith.  History is about interpretation, but also about facts.   And as they say, you have the right to your own opinion, not your own facts.

Naturally, the Eastern Orthodox would have a slightly different view of the history compared to the Western (Roman) Catholic Church.

The Catholic argument for universal authority is one of those interpretations not based on fact.  Because the Pope claimed universal authority later in history (beginning in the 4th century--but on and off for a while; Leo III, for example, rejected it) and the faith was established "once for all" Jude 3, the church tried to claim Papal universal authority since the beginning.  Historical data (facts) simply doesn't support that contention, as I noted in the previous post. 

So, while our view is indeed different than the RCC's, it is not based on a different interpretation of the same facts.  It is based on facts alone, not an anachronistic view of history.  See the difference?

[ozell]

The tabernacle is never referenced as the church.. the tabernacle was the dwelling place of God so that he could be with his people.

When Jesus died and was ressurected.. the curtain hiding the Holy of Holies was rent top to bottom because now instead of God dwelling in the tabernacle (temple) he dwells in the hearts over everyone he elected to be saved from the foundation of the world.[/quote]

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

the church is the people, not the building! the church is Israel physical or spiritually!

Ex 12v37: And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

there were people from all over the world included in this church started in the wilderness.

[DCR]

So, while our view is indeed different than the RCC's, it is not based on a different interpretation of the same facts.  It is based on facts alone, not an anachronistic view of history.  See the difference?

Perhaps, but the "facts" are often in dispute.

[Bocephus]

The Bible plainly reads that Jesus started His Own Church 2000 years ago. In fact, the Church is mentioned more than 100 times in the Bible.

Mt:16:18:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus said those who refuse to obey His CHurch are to be considered heathens

Mt:18:17:
And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

Priests were ordained in every Church

Acts:14:23:
And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.

The Sacrament of Confirmation was practiced by the Church

Acts:16:5:
And the churches were confirmed in faith and increased in number daily.

The Bishops ruled the Church of God in the first century, just as they do today.

Acts:20:28:
Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Church is the pillar of truth

1Tm:3:15:
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church that Jesus started?  You mean the Bible Church?

[trifecta]

So, while our view is indeed different than the RCC's, it is not based on a different interpretation of the same facts.  It is based on facts alone, not an anachronistic view of history.  See the difference?

Perhaps, but the "facts" are often in dispute.

Yes, you are right.  As I said, the resurrection of Christ is a fact, but it is in dispute.  

The difference between interpreting Scripture and the issue of universal authority is we have different interpretations of the same words (the facts) in Biblical interpretation while with universal authority, the RCC claims things that are facts, but are not.

  So, they (sometimes) posit that the Bishop of Rome had universal authority since the beginning.   But this can be disproven using facts  Fact: Rome wanted the universal church to celebrate Easter on the same day, but the eastern churches wouldn't do it.  Fact: The Bishop of Rome was not and did not send delegates to the 2nd ecumenical council and did not support its decisions for a while.  Fact: Two popes were anathamatized at two separate ecumenical councils.  

Rome tries to dispute these facts.  They say that the Popes approved of the ecumenical councils (without any evidence).  That those disgraced popes (Virgilius, Honorius) were condemned because of private opinions, not public decisions.

Nevertheless, we can't let the complexities of opinions divert us from the question: did the Bishop of Rome have universality over the church?  There can be only one correct answer--yes or no.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Nevertheless, we can't let the complexities of opinions divert us from the question: did the Bishop of Rome have universality over the church?  There can be only one correct answer--yes or no.