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Author Topic: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)  (Read 8657 times)

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Angelos

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The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« on: Thu Mar 11, 2010 - 08:18:51 »
 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."

 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil

Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.

The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized

Christian initiation is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ's Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ.

 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.

 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated

 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized

Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism

Source:CATECHISM OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH

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The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« on: Thu Mar 11, 2010 - 08:18:51 »

larry2

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 21, 2010 - 21:31:07 »

Bump

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 21, 2010 - 21:31:07 »

Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #2 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 19:58:28 »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in its entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody. According to his own words; it is necessary to be baptized and believe : with belief coming first and having the priority of the two. For example :

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. Eph 1:13 . . In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Obviously then, infant baptism is a waste of motion since children so young are unable to believe even the simplest of New Testament concepts; let alone understand them.


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« Last Edit: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:21:54 by Webers_Home »

ex cathedra

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:16:54 »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in it's entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody. According to his own words; it is necessary to be baptized and believe : with belief having the priority of the two. For example :

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. Eph 1:13 . . In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Obviously then, infant baptism is a waste of motion since children so young are unable to believe even the simplest of New Testament concepts; let alone understand them.


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you better check out all the verses on batism because the bible clearly says baptism saves .

actualy  infants are unable to "disbeleive "   older children and adults are the ones that  have  come to Jesus in baptism as a judas.

infants are the safest baptism of all .

Matthew 21:15-16 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)
15 But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, “Hosanna to the Son of David,
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:32:22 by ex cathedra »

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #3 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:16:54 »

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:17:40 »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in its entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody |

That is true.  Catholics don't believe that baptism alone guarantees salvation for everyone.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #4 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:17:40 »



ex cathedra

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #5 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:36:23 »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in its entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody |

That is true.  Catholics don't believe that baptism alone guarantees salvation for everyone.



and especialy not confessional lutherans like me right. ::pokingwithstick::
who believe in Jesus his merits alone AND baptism being one of Jesus MERITS alone ,,,his  means of grace through faith in him.


Titus 3:5 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 20:44:01 by ex cathedra »

Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #6 on: Sat Jan 01, 2011 - 21:37:05 »
.
you better check out all the verses on batism because the bile clearly says baptim saves .

Are you exempt from your own advice?

actualy  infants are unable to "disbeleive "

It often comes as a shock to Bible students that disbelief is man's default status; infants included. In other words; if somebody is currently not believing— for whatever reason —then they are in a state of unbelief since there exists no middle ground between belief and unbelief. You're either the one or you're the other one. There is no neutral zone.

With that principle in mind; feast your glims on this statement :


†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not yet believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

That's saying that infants are born damned to Hell even before they learn to talk because they haven't as yet believed in the name of God's one and only son. This very situation is what motivates missionaries to compass sea and land preaching the gospel because those who haven't heard it yet are already damned to Hell before the missionaries even arrive and set up shop. What I'm saying is : it isn't necessary to reject the gospel in order to go to Hell, though rejecting it is certainly far more serious than not having heard it in the first place.


†. Heb 10:29 . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 12:01:37 »
.
A little-known fact concerning original sin is that Adam's transgression has never been a Hell-worthy sin. No, the correct satisfaction of justice for that sin is one's own demise.

†. Gen 2:16-17 . .Yhvh God commanded the man : You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

†. Rom 5:12 . . Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

"everyone sinned" is in the grammatical past tense, indicating that all of Adam's descendants, even those not yet born, are accounted as having eaten the fruit when he did. In law, this is called a proxy; which Webster's defines as : (1) the agency, function, or office of a deputy who acts as a substitute for another, and (2) authority or power to act for another, and (3) a person authorized to act for another : procurator.

In other words, even though Adam did not have in his possession everyone's official consent to act on their behalf, God attributes everyone's involvement by means of implied consent; which Webster's defines as : to involve, or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement. Therefore, everyone has to die just as if they themselves had been right there in person nibbling on that fruit against God's wishes.

But the good news is; that particular sin isn't Hell-worthy; no, God decreed it capital-punishment worthy, so that one's demise settles their account with God at least for that one sin. This is true for infants as well as adults. In point of fact, since Christ descended from Adam, then if he hadn't been crucified, the Lord would have eventually died from any number of other causes, including, but not limited to : accident, crime, health, and old age.


†. Heb 9:27-28 . . Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment; so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 12:24:58 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap of God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 12:30:37 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 15:12:42 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #11 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 17:06:59 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?


Free will combined with imperfection leads to sin.  We can only conquer sin by cooperating with God's grace.

God doesn't force us to cooperate.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 19:39:48 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.


Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #13 on: Sun Jan 23, 2011 - 21:06:11 »
.
Why can't the "death" of Gen 2:16-17 and Rom 5:12 be one's ordinary passing rather than mystical deaths like soul death and/or spirit death?

You see, if it's ordinary passing, then that would explain why everyone died prior to the enactment of the capital punishments stipulated in Moses' covenanted law.

†. Rom 5:12-14 . . Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the Law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when no Law exists. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a commandment, as did Adam

From that passage, I am instantly informed that, under normal circumstances, my passing will have nothing whatsoever to do with breaking the commandments. My demise will just simply be collateral damage related to Adam's transgression and nothing else. This fact helps lend some sanity to the passing of infants and underage children who have never done anything worthy of capital punishment. When people spin the truth of Gen2:16-17 and Rom 5:12-14, they rob those young deaths of sanity; and move them into the realm of spurious theories and reckless speculation.

What does any of this have to do with infant baptism? Well . . . I should think it would be obvious that when un-baptized youngsters pass, there is no need to worry that Adam's sin will jeopardize the little ones' futures since the correct satisfaction of justice for Adam's sin is simply their demise. This is actually the one sin in the whole Bible for which everyone has the means to atone, whether a baby or an adult; viz : the moment any of us expires, no matter what our age, the death sentence of Gen 2:16-17 is duly carried out.


Keep
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Silly

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 06:25:04 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.



You don't listen too well brother.

It is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.  The idea that the stain of sin, which is a malady of the spirit, not the body, is genetically transmitted is simply ludicrous.

The spirit is not transmitted genetically.  There is no mechanism for that to happen.  If there were, then it would only be by God's hand in creation.  That means that God, who gives us our spirit, gives us a spirit which is dead on arrival.  But our spirits do not come from our parents; rather our spirits come from God.  Adam and Eve were given pure spirits, they chose to sin.  We are given pure spirits, we chose to sin.  Jesus was given a pure spirit, he chose not to sin.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #15 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:06:13 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.



You don't listen too well brother.

It is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.  The idea that the stain of sin, which is a malady of the spirit, not the body, is genetically transmitted is simply ludicrous.

The spirit is not transmitted genetically.  There is no mechanism for that to happen.  If there were, then it would only be by God's hand in creation.  That means that God, who gives us our spirit, gives us a spirit which is dead on arrival.  But our spirits do not come from our parents; rather our spirits come from God.  Adam and Eve were given pure spirits, they chose to sin.  We are given pure spirits, we chose to sin.  Jesus was given a pure spirit, he chose not to sin.

I think this is a semantics disagreement.

Do you agree that we all have the inclination to sin?

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #16 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:09:47 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.



You don't listen too well brother.

It is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.  The idea that the stain of sin, which is a malady of the spirit, not the body, is genetically transmitted is simply ludicrous.

The spirit is not transmitted genetically.  There is no mechanism for that to happen.  If there were, then it would only be by God's hand in creation.  That means that God, who gives us our spirit, gives us a spirit which is dead on arrival.  But our spirits do not come from our parents; rather our spirits come from God.  Adam and Eve were given pure spirits, they chose to sin.  We are given pure spirits, we chose to sin.  Jesus was given a pure spirit, he chose not to sin.

I think this is a semantics disagreement.

Do you agree that we all have the inclination to sin?

Yes I agree that we all have the inclination to sin. But no more so than did Adam and Eve.  We have the inclination to sin, but it is still our choice whether we do sin or not.

It is more than a semantics disagreement.  Do you agree that Adam and Eve received a spirit from God free from the taint or stain of sin? 

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #17 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:17:37 »
So if I'm hearing you right, you're saying we're all born sinless as Christ was. We were conceived immaculately?

To you sin is not a product of carnal but of the spirit and because we received our spirits from God we can't possibly be born in sin? Is this about right?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #18 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:35:05 »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.



You don't listen too well brother.

It is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.  The idea that the stain of sin, which is a malady of the spirit, not the body, is genetically transmitted is simply ludicrous.

The spirit is not transmitted genetically.  There is no mechanism for that to happen.  If there were, then it would only be by God's hand in creation.  That means that God, who gives us our spirit, gives us a spirit which is dead on arrival.  But our spirits do not come from our parents; rather our spirits come from God.  Adam and Eve were given pure spirits, they chose to sin.  We are given pure spirits, we chose to sin.  Jesus was given a pure spirit, he chose not to sin.

I think this is a semantics disagreement.

Do you agree that we all have the inclination to sin?

Yes I agree that we all have the inclination to sin. But no more so than did Adam and Eve.  We have the inclination to sin, but it is still our choice whether we do sin or not.

It is more than a semantics disagreement.  Do you agree that Adam and Eve received a spirit from God free from the taint or stain of sin? 

God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:35:29 »
So if I'm hearing you right, you're saying we're all born sinless as Christ was. We were conceived immaculately?

To you sin is not a product of carnal but of the spirit and because we received our spirits from God we can't possibly be born in sin? Is this about right?


I don't want to get into the "immaculate" discussion.  But yes, we are all given a spirit by God.  That spirit does not come by way of any physical mechanism, i.e., genentics or whatever.

Sin is the commiting of wrongdoing.  It is a choice that we make.  Our carnal desires, in and of themselves, are not sin.  Although it is our carnal desires that give rise to the choices before us.  It is in making the wrong or improper choice that we sin.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:42:01 by Jimmy »

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #20 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 07:40:21 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #21 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 08:18:40 »

Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
 
Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 
I reckon choosing or freewill failed the total of mankind; it is only when God chooses that things comes out right

Ephesians 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,   

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #22 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 09:01:38 »
So if I'm hearing you right, you're saying we're all born sinless as Christ was. We were conceived immaculately?

To you sin is not a product of carnal but of the spirit and because we received our spirits from God we can't possibly be born in sin? Is this about right?


I don't want to get into the "immaculate" discussion.  But yes, we are all given a spirit by God.  That spirit does not come by way of any physical mechanism, i.e., genentics or whatever.

Sin is the commiting of wrongdoing.  It is a choice that we make.  Our carnal desires, in and of themselves, are not sin.  Although it is our carnal desires that give rise to the choices before us.  It is in making the wrong or improper choice that we sin.


Ok well I understand your opinion Jimmy, although I don't agree. I believe Sacred Scripture alone should is clear enough to prove you wrong but I don't wish to see it molded, twisted and deviated from by human reasoning. I will say only that I believe that if you would just read Scripture that your belief is proven wrong several times over.

In any event I guess thats all for now Big Brother.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #23 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 10:28:03 »
So if I'm hearing you right, you're saying we're all born sinless as Christ was. We were conceived immaculately?

To you sin is not a product of carnal but of the spirit and because we received our spirits from God we can't possibly be born in sin? Is this about right?


I don't want to get into the "immaculate" discussion.  But yes, we are all given a spirit by God.  That spirit does not come by way of any physical mechanism, i.e., genentics or whatever.

Sin is the commiting of wrongdoing.  It is a choice that we make.  Our carnal desires, in and of themselves, are not sin.  Although it is our carnal desires that give rise to the choices before us.  It is in making the wrong or improper choice that we sin.


Ok well I understand your opinion Jimmy, although I don't agree. I believe Sacred Scripture alone should is clear enough to prove you wrong but I don't wish to see it molded, twisted and deviated from by human reasoning. I will say only that I believe that if you would just read Scripture that your belief is proven wrong several times over.

In any event I guess thats all for now Big Brother.

Quite frankly, I think that is just one more think that comes out of your "Tradtions" that is not consistant with Scripture.  If someone could give a reasonable explanation of how this "inheritance" of Adam's sin takes place without it being a direct cause of God, I would appreciate it.

As it is, words are thrown around, Scriptures are misinterpreted and misapplied, all to support a teaching that is an invention of man.

LightHammer, perhaps you could given me your thoughts on Ezekiel 18.  Why would God give us that particular chapter if He intended to charge all mankind with the penalty of Adam's sin?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #24 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 10:34:23 »

Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

As I told you before, if you are going to deal with Psalms 51:5 as a literal statement of original sin, then you must also deal with Psalms 51:5-7 as the literal actual solution to that problem.

What you intention was in the rest of those verses, I really don't know.

How about this one:

Eze 18:4  "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #25 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 11:50:28 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #26 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 12:44:49 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #27 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 13:11:14 »


Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.



As I told you before, if you are going to deal with Psalms 51:5 as a literal statement of original sin, then you must also deal with Psalms 51:5-7 as the literal actual solution to that problem.


I don't remember you addressing that even if I responded, but if you did and proved me wrong in using it I may have to rip it from my bible as worthless.

Of course the solution to the problem is water of the word and the blood shed for us. Why was hyssop needed for if we're alright and don't need cleansing?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #28 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 13:30:40 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.


Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #29 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 15:01:42 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #30 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 15:05:33 »

I don't remember you addressing that even if I responded, but if you did and proved me wrong in using it I may have to rip it from my bible as worthless.


Larry, the problem isn't with your Bible; rather the problem is in your exegesis and interpretation of it.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #31 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 15:14:01 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.

Offline Hehealedme

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #32 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 16:50:21 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 08, 2014 - 12:30:20 by Hehealedme »

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jan 24, 2011 - 19:47:30 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.


I know that angels aren't human beings but wasn't Lucifer perfect?...

No, Lucifer was not perfect.  The only one perfect is God.  The only way a being can be perfect is to follow the one who is All-Perfect....to follow God's will.  No creature is perfect without God because with God all things are possible. 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #34 on: Tue Jan 25, 2011 - 06:41:42 »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.


I know that angels aren't human beings but wasn't Lucifer perfect?...

No, Lucifer was not perfect.  The only one perfect is God.  The only way a being can be perfect is to follow the one who is All-Perfect....to follow God's will.  No creature is perfect without God because with God all things are possible. 

What is the difference, if any, between the angels of God and the fallen angels?

What was the difference, if any, between the Adam's spirit before and after he disobeyed God?

Do you agree that God gives to each of us, individually and separately from our physical conception and birth, our spirits?