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Angelos

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The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« on: March 11, 2010, 07:18:51 AM »
 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."

 "When we made our first profession of faith while receiving the holy Baptism that cleansed us, the forgiveness we received then was so full and complete that there remained in us absolutely nothing left to efface, neither original sin nor offenses committed by our own will, nor was there left any penalty to suffer in order to expiate them. . . . Yet the grace of Baptism delivers no one from all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the movements of concupiscence that never cease leading us into evil

Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.

The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized

Christian initiation is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ's Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ.

 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.

 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated

 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized

Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature," member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
- giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
- allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
Thus the whole organism of the Christian's supernatural life has its roots in Baptism

Source:CATECHISM OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH

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The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« on: March 11, 2010, 07:18:51 AM »

larry2

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 08:31:07 PM »

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 08:31:07 PM »

Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2011, 06:58:28 PM »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in its entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody. According to his own words; it is necessary to be baptized and believe : with belief coming first and having the priority of the two. For example :

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. Eph 1:13 . . In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Obviously then, infant baptism is a waste of motion since children so young are unable to believe even the simplest of New Testament concepts; let alone understand them.


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« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 07:21:54 PM by Webers_Home »

ex cathedra

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 07:16:54 PM »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in it's entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody. According to his own words; it is necessary to be baptized and believe : with belief having the priority of the two. For example :

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. Eph 1:13 . . In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

Obviously then, infant baptism is a waste of motion since children so young are unable to believe even the simplest of New Testament concepts; let alone understand them.


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you better check out all the verses on batism because the bible clearly says baptism saves .

actualy  infants are unable to "disbeleive "   older children and adults are the ones that  have  come to Jesus in baptism as a judas.

infants are the safest baptism of all .

Matthew 21:15-16 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)
15 But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, “Hosanna to the Son of David,
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 07:32:22 PM by ex cathedra »

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 07:16:54 PM »

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2011, 07:17:40 PM »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in its entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody |

That is true.  Catholics don't believe that baptism alone guarantees salvation for everyone.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2011, 07:17:40 PM »



ex cathedra

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2011, 07:36:23 PM »
.
Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."

The above scripture quote was taken from the gospel of Mark. Here it is in its entirety.

†. Mrk 16:15-16 . . And he said unto them: Go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone. They that believe and are baptized will be spared; but they that believe not will be damned.

If I'm hearing the Lord correctly; he's saying that baptism alone isn't sufficient to spare anybody |

That is true.  Catholics don't believe that baptism alone guarantees salvation for everyone.



and especialy not confessional lutherans like me right. ::pokingwithstick::
who believe in Jesus his merits alone AND baptism being one of Jesus MERITS alone ,,,his  means of grace through faith in him.


Titus 3:5 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 07:44:01 PM by ex cathedra »

Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2011, 08:37:05 PM »
.
you better check out all the verses on batism because the bile clearly says baptim saves .

Are you exempt from your own advice?

actualy  infants are unable to "disbeleive "

It often comes as a shock to Bible students that disbelief is man's default status; infants included. In other words; if somebody is currently not believing— for whatever reason —then they are in a state of unbelief since there exists no middle ground between belief and unbelief. You're either the one or you're the other one. There is no neutral zone.

With that principle in mind; feast your glims on this statement :


†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not yet believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

That's saying that infants are born damned to Hell even before they learn to talk because they haven't as yet believed in the name of God's one and only son. This very situation is what motivates missionaries to compass sea and land preaching the gospel because those who haven't heard it yet are already damned to Hell before the missionaries even arrive and set up shop. What I'm saying is : it isn't necessary to reject the gospel in order to go to Hell, though rejecting it is certainly far more serious than not having heard it in the first place.


†. Heb 10:29 . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

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Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 11:01:37 AM »
.
A little-known fact concerning original sin is that Adam's transgression has never been a Hell-worthy sin. No, the correct satisfaction of justice for that sin is one's own demise.

†. Gen 2:16-17 . .Yhvh God commanded the man : You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

†. Rom 5:12 . . Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

"everyone sinned" is in the grammatical past tense, indicating that all of Adam's descendants, even those not yet born, are accounted as having eaten the fruit when he did. In law, this is called a proxy; which Webster's defines as : (1) the agency, function, or office of a deputy who acts as a substitute for another, and (2) authority or power to act for another, and (3) a person authorized to act for another : procurator.

In other words, even though Adam did not have in his possession everyone's official consent to act on their behalf, God attributes everyone's involvement by means of implied consent; which Webster's defines as : to involve, or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement. Therefore, everyone has to die just as if they themselves had been right there in person nibbling on that fruit against God's wishes.

But the good news is; that particular sin isn't Hell-worthy; no, God decreed it capital-punishment worthy, so that one's demise settles their account with God at least for that one sin. This is true for infants as well as adults. In point of fact, since Christ descended from Adam, then if he hadn't been crucified, the Lord would have eventually died from any number of other causes, including, but not limited to : accident, crime, health, and old age.


†. Heb 9:27-28 . . Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment; so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 11:24:58 AM »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap of God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 11:30:37 AM »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 02:12:42 PM »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 04:06:59 PM »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?


Free will combined with imperfection leads to sin.  We can only conquer sin by cooperating with God's grace.

God doesn't force us to cooperate.

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 06:39:48 PM »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.


Webers_Home

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 08:06:11 PM »
.
Why can't the "death" of Gen 2:16-17 and Rom 5:12 be one's ordinary passing rather than mystical deaths like soul death and/or spirit death?

You see, if it's ordinary passing, then that would explain why everyone died prior to the enactment of the capital punishments stipulated in Moses' covenanted law.

†. Rom 5:12-14 . . Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the Law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when no Law exists. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a commandment, as did Adam

From that passage, I am instantly informed that, under normal circumstances, my passing will have nothing whatsoever to do with breaking the commandments. My demise will just simply be collateral damage related to Adam's transgression and nothing else. This fact helps lend some sanity to the passing of infants and underage children who have never done anything worthy of capital punishment. When people spin the truth of Gen2:16-17 and Rom 5:12-14, they rob those young deaths of sanity; and move them into the realm of spurious theories and reckless speculation.

What does any of this have to do with infant baptism? Well . . . I should think it would be obvious that when un-baptized youngsters pass, there is no need to worry that Adam's sin will jeopardize the little ones' futures since the correct satisfaction of justice for Adam's sin is simply their demise. This is actually the one sin in the whole Bible for which everyone has the means to atone, whether a baby or an adult; viz : the moment any of us expires, no matter what our age, the death sentence of Gen 2:16-17 is duly carried out.


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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2011, 05:25:04 AM »
We have yet another who preaches that God gives dead spirits upon each and every conception and/or birth.  The very idea of original sin is a slap in God's face, a spit in His eye.  God gives to each of us a spirit.  That spirit is alive and well up to the point that the person sins.  It is that sin which kills the spirit, not Adams, not anyone elses.

Are you saying that we are all born sinless?

No Catholic, Webers Home is NOT a Catholic,(there's a whole stinking topic posted to clearly present that), that original causes us to be born with dead souls? Isn't that like an oxymoron or something?

We teach that we are given our life force from the Father but the bodies we recieve from our ancestors are sin stained. When they comingle to form our existence the nature is corrupted. The soul doesn't die. If that was so the flesh would not have life!

The soul is merely stained with the sin that passes through the seed of Adam.,

Hence why the Catholic Church refers to Christ as the Second Adam, one of many titles.

There's titles like Alpha and Omega, Lion of the Tribe of Judah and other stuff you know.

Where did you get your spirit?  If from God, are you saying He gave you a tainted spirit, a spirit dead in sin?

You don't listen too well Big Brother.

The spirit is not the problem. The flesh is. As I clearly presented in the above quote the bodies we are given from our forefather Adam bear his seed and therefore the stain of sin. Now when that co mingles with the pure uncorrupted life force from God thats how we are finished. Our make up is violated by the original sin of Adam.

Every human birth is just the reoccurence of what God did with Adam and Eve. He formed our bodies from natural sources but gave us life from supernatural sources. When Adam, the chief among sinned, the natural became tainted by sin. Because man exist as the comingled of natural and supernatural our make up was stained.

The rest is how do you say, history.

Adam and Eve pop out kids transmitting the stain of their sin like a disease to the all man apart from Jesus Christ and The Virgin Mary.



You don't listen too well brother.

It is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.  The idea that the stain of sin, which is a malady of the spirit, not the body, is genetically transmitted is simply ludicrous.

The spirit is not transmitted genetically.  There is no mechanism for that to happen.  If there were, then it would only be by God's hand in creation.  That means that God, who gives us our spirit, gives us a spirit which is dead on arrival.  But our spirits do not come from our parents; rather our spirits come from God.  Adam and Eve were given pure spirits, they chose to sin.  We are given pure spirits, we chose to sin.  Jesus was given a pure spirit, he chose not to sin.