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Author Topic: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)  (Read 8250 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2011, 02:05:33 PM »

I don't remember you addressing that even if I responded, but if you did and proved me wrong in using it I may have to rip it from my bible as worthless.


Larry, the problem isn't with your Bible; rather the problem is in your exegesis and interpretation of it.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2011, 02:05:33 PM »

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 02:14:01 PM »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 02:14:01 PM »

Offline Hehealedme

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2011, 03:50:21 PM »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.


I know that angels aren't human beings but wasn't Lucifer perfect?...

Offline Selene

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2011, 06:47:30 PM »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.


I know that angels aren't human beings but wasn't Lucifer perfect?...

No, Lucifer was not perfect.  The only one perfect is God.  The only way a being can be perfect is to follow the one who is All-Perfect....to follow God's will.  No creature is perfect without God because with God all things are possible. 

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2011, 06:47:30 PM »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 05:41:42 AM »
God created us as free creatures who are not perfect, therefore he created us knowing that we would sin.

God did not create us as imperfect.  He created us perfect, but with the free will ability to choose.  And yes, He knew that we would sin.  Hence the plan of salvation that was established before all creation.  God was not blind-sided by the sin of Adam and Eve.

Only God is perfect.  We are not perfect.  We are as God created us, which is imperfect.

So then it is your conclusion that the spirit that God gave you was dead in sin at the very outset.  I do not believe that.  The Bible does not say that.  We are created in the image of God.  Since God is not physical, that image cannot be anything other than spiritual.  What we do to destroy that is our own doing not God's. We are not created imperfect, rather we become imperfect by our own choices and acts.

Our spirit is free, not dead.

Unless God were to inhibit our free will, we must be capable of sin.



I don't quite understand your last comment.  Just because our spirit is alive and well (in the spiritual sense) does not mean that we are not capable of sin.  The person lost in his sins and not having yet received salvation is described as dead.  Paul treats the salvation of the lost as a resurrection from the dead (Rom 6:13; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; 1 Pet 4:6).

Was Adam and Eve not perfect before they sinned?

They were not perfect because they were capable of falling.

A perfect being will not sin.


I know that angels aren't human beings but wasn't Lucifer perfect?...

No, Lucifer was not perfect.  The only one perfect is God.  The only way a being can be perfect is to follow the one who is All-Perfect....to follow God's will.  No creature is perfect without God because with God all things are possible. 

What is the difference, if any, between the angels of God and the fallen angels?

What was the difference, if any, between the Adam's spirit before and after he disobeyed God?

Do you agree that God gives to each of us, individually and separately from our physical conception and birth, our spirits?

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 05:41:42 AM »



Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 07:18:43 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 07:48:56 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).


Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 08:01:26 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 08:08:21 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Oh good grief.  You sound like a native shaman.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2011, 08:11:40 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Oh good grief.  You sound like a native shaman.

Only modernist try to rationalize God and make Him sound more "down to earth" and westerny to make Him more comfortable and easy to take in. He is very ethereal and extremely deep and complex. I'm not shocked that the Truth sounds like something not of this world to you as the words of shamans do.


Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2011, 08:27:21 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Oh good grief.  You sound like a native shaman.

Only modernist try to rationalize God and make Him sound more "down to earth" and westerny to make Him more comfortable and easy to take in. He is very ethereal and extremely deep and complex. I'm not shocked that the Truth sounds like something not of this world to you as the words of shamans do.


Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2011, 08:38:34 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Oh good grief.  You sound like a native shaman.

Only modernist try to rationalize God and make Him sound more "down to earth" and westerny to make Him more comfortable and easy to take in. He is very ethereal and extremely deep and complex. I'm not shocked that the Truth sounds like something not of this world to you as the words of shamans do.


Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Jimmy do you ever realize that everytime we have a debate of the facts you always end up resorting to nothing more than opinion. We have a debate of attrition to see who's defense is based entirely on facts and everytime you lose. Whether its the history of the Church, the true conetxt and nature of the atrocities commited at the hands of corrupt leaders or even sin itself you always end up with a repsonse like.

Quote
Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Quote
But its not the apostolic faith. Its vatican propaganda.

When history and Scripture tilt in the favor of my defense you revert to this pathetic state instead of simply saying,"Hey you may have a point but right now my gut is telling me that you only harbor some of the Truth in yoru beliefs and not its entirety."

I would say, "Hey thats fair enough. I kind of get that same vibe with you but at least we're not at each other's throat shouting liar liar liar anymore."

What I have presented is the Truth supported by God's Word and future actions. He will lay watse to this world because of sin contaminates it because Adam, who was given lordship over it, sinned. He's not doing it because He just feels like it or that He hates the earth. Its violated by the sins of the one put over it and therefore will be purified through fire and the New Earth and the New Heaven will descend in its place.

That very same sin is what contaminates our being. We recieve pure life from the Father but, unlike Adam who had a clean body, that life force co mingles with the flesh of a sinful making forming us in a sinful nature.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2011, 09:07:06 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Oh good grief.  You sound like a native shaman.

Only modernist try to rationalize God and make Him sound more "down to earth" and westerny to make Him more comfortable and easy to take in. He is very ethereal and extremely deep and complex. I'm not shocked that the Truth sounds like something not of this world to you as the words of shamans do.


Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Jimmy do you ever realize that everytime we have a debate of the facts you always end up resorting to nothing more than opinion. We have a debate of attrition to see who's defense is based entirely on facts and everytime you lose. Whether its the history of the Church, the true conetxt and nature of the atrocities commited at the hands of corrupt leaders or even sin itself you always end up with a repsonse like.

Quote
Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Quote
But its not the apostolic faith. Its vatican propaganda.

When history and Scripture tilt in the favor of my defense you revert to this pathetic state instead of simply saying,"Hey you may have a point but right now my gut is telling me that you only harbor some of the Truth in yoru beliefs and not its entirety."

I would say, "Hey thats fair enough. I kind of get that same vibe with you but at least we're not at each other's throat shouting liar liar liar anymore."

What I have presented is the Truth supported by God's Word and future actions. He will lay watse to this world because of sin contaminates it because Adam, who was given lordship over it, sinned. He's not doing it because He just feels like it or that He hates the earth. Its violated by the sins of the one put over it and therefore will be purified through fire and the New Earth and the New Heaven will descend in its place.

That very same sin is what contaminates our being. We recieve pure life from the Father but, unlike Adam who had a clean body, that life force co mingles with the flesh of a sinful making forming us in a sinful nature.

If you want to believe in sin contaminated dirt that is fine with me.  I have no reason to encourage that nonsense by continuing to discourse with you.  So I won't.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2011, 09:14:07 AM »
Yes but God does not give us our bodies. We inherit our flesh from our ancestors. That flesh is contaminated with sin. Once the sinful flesh of Adam co mingles with the sinless life force of God the result is our birth in which we contract the sinful nature of Adam.

No! No! No!   Absolutely not!  Sin contaminates the spirit; Sin does not contaminate the flesh.  When we are saved, the spirit, not the flesh, is cleansed (1 Pet 3:21).



Calm down I know that.

If you would take a second and look you would realize that you don't disagree with me. Sin contaminates the spirit but it does that through offenses commited through the flesh. The flesh is the how. Once Adam the chief of God;s natural creation and he who was given dominion of the earth sinned, the natural world was engulfed in it.

The physical world is sin stained that is why God charboils the entire thing before He delivers the New Heaven and New Earth. It has become corrupt and sinful and the Fire of God will purify the universe by destroying it.

As man, we get our bodies from the natural world because God took our bodies from the dust of the ground and we inherit such from the seed of Adam. In each individual as with Adam, God gives us life force stemming from Him. The only difference between us and Adam is our bodies. Adam's body was derived from the natural world before it was contaminated by sin so his nature was not corrupted. We on the other hand get our bodies from the contaminated natural world and therefore our nature of righteousness that comes from God's life force germinates and is corrupted by the flesh.

Thus creating man with a sinful nature and the inclination to rebell.

Oh good grief.  You sound like a native shaman.

Only modernist try to rationalize God and make Him sound more "down to earth" and westerny to make Him more comfortable and easy to take in. He is very ethereal and extremely deep and complex. I'm not shocked that the Truth sounds like something not of this world to you as the words of shamans do.


Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Jimmy do you ever realize that everytime we have a debate of the facts you always end up resorting to nothing more than opinion. We have a debate of attrition to see who's defense is based entirely on facts and everytime you lose. Whether its the history of the Church, the true conetxt and nature of the atrocities commited at the hands of corrupt leaders or even sin itself you always end up with a repsonse like.

Quote
Only a very young mislead RCCer would find meaning in sin contaminted dirt.  Or perhaps the shaman also.

Quote
But its not the apostolic faith. Its vatican propaganda.

When history and Scripture tilt in the favor of my defense you revert to this pathetic state instead of simply saying,"Hey you may have a point but right now my gut is telling me that you only harbor some of the Truth in yoru beliefs and not its entirety."

I would say, "Hey thats fair enough. I kind of get that same vibe with you but at least we're not at each other's throat shouting liar liar liar anymore."

What I have presented is the Truth supported by God's Word and future actions. He will lay watse to this world because of sin contaminates it because Adam, who was given lordship over it, sinned. He's not doing it because He just feels like it or that He hates the earth. Its violated by the sins of the one put over it and therefore will be purified through fire and the New Earth and the New Heaven will descend in its place.

That very same sin is what contaminates our being. We recieve pure life from the Father but, unlike Adam who had a clean body, that life force co mingles with the flesh of a sinful making forming us in a sinful nature.

If you want to believe in sin contaminated dirt that is fine with me.  I have no reason to encourage that nonsense by continuing to discourse with you.  So I won't.

So I guess you deny that the natural world is corrupted with sin? You know what nevermind. You have procceeded to dumb down my bliefs with your pathetic "contaminated dirt" remark so its obvious that you are incapable of taking that the step into a deep insight of the things of God.

Not that it is of any consequence to a modernist. All you guys care about is getting your stinking foot in the door of Heaven and next to pudding about getting indepth into the wonder of God. All I have ever from you guys is," If its not necessary for salvation then why bother".

Such narrowminded selfishness. No respect for the deeper understandings of God.

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Re: The importance of Baptism (infant or adult)
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2011, 12:30:45 PM »
Contaminated natural world instead of contaminated dirt is the deeper understandings of God?

 rofl