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Offline nod2014

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The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 13:29:58 »
He said this

To illustrate his point, he turned to an aide and said: "It is true that you must not react violently, but although we are good friends if (he) says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch, it's normal.

"You can't make a toy out of the religions of others," he added. "These people provoke and then (something can happen). In freedom of expression there are limits."

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-pope-speaks-against-insulting-religions-121551202--sector.html

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The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 13:29:58 »

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 13:40:16 »
Why do you think his words show immaturity?

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 13:40:16 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 14:11:38 »
He said this

To illustrate his point, he turned to an aide and said: "It is true that you must not react violently, but although we are good friends if (he) says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch, it's normal.

"You can't make a toy out of the religions of others," he added. "These people provoke and then (something can happen). In freedom of expression there are limits."

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-pope-speaks-against-insulting-religions-121551202--sector.html


I think the pope speaks to the natural reaction that people have when they are insulted.  He connects to normal people in that way.  It would be something to see if that situation actually did happen what he in particular would actually do.  His speech connects with people to help them understand a point.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 15, 2015 - 14:14:00 by Catholica »

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 16:16:30 »
He said this

To illustrate his point, he turned to an aide and said: "It is true that you must not react violently, but although we are good friends if (he) says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch, it's normal.

"You can't make a toy out of the religions of others," he added. "These people provoke and then (something can happen). In freedom of expression there are limits."

http://news.yahoo.com/paris-attacks-pope-speaks-against-insulting-religions-121551202--sector.html


I think the pope speaks to the natural reaction that people have when they are insulted.  He connects to normal people in that way.  It would be something to see if that situation actually did happen what he in particular would actually do.  His speech connects with people to help them understand a point.


This may surprise you cath but I am in full agreement witht he pope.  I said the day before that they brought it upon them selves. I am not in any agreement with Islam, but the magazine was to blame for the attack with their insults. It is a shame that we live in such a violent world but evil insights evil every time, and on top of that they wanted everyone to show solidarity for it calling it an attack on freedom.   ::doh::
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 16:30:12 by mclees8 »

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #3 on: Fri Jan 16, 2015 - 16:16:30 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 13:56:18 »
Pope: Charlie Hebdo 'punch' not a justification of violence

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (AP) — Pope Francis said Monday he wasn't justifying violence when he said a friend who had cursed his mother could "expect a punch" in return. Rather, he says he was only expressing a very human response to a provocation and that greater prudence was necessary to avoid such offense.

Francis clarified his comments about the limits of freedom of speech made last week in response to the terrorist attack against the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

Speaking to reporters en route home from the Philippines, Francis said: "In theory we can say a violent reaction to an offense or provocation isn't a good thing, that one shouldn't do it. In theory we can say what Gospel says, that we should turn the other cheek. In theory we can say that we have the freedom to express ourselves," he said. "But we are human. And there is prudence, which is a virtue of human coexistence. I cannot insult or provoke someone continually because I risk making him angry."

The "punch" line, and the confusion it caused, was a reflection of how Francis' informal, and sometimes unpapal, sense of humor can sometime cause confusion or get him in trouble.

In fact, moments after clarifying his Charlie Hebdo remarks, Francis told a story about a run-in he had back in the 1990s in Buenos Aires with two corrupt public officials who offered him the equivalent of $400,000 for his works of charity on the condition that they get some of it back as a kickback.

"And in that moment I thought, 'What should I do? Either insult them and kick them where the sun doesn't shine, or play the fool," Francis said.

He said he ended up playing the fool, but his response was further evidence that his casual speaking style is just that: casual.

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jan 20, 2015 - 13:56:18 »



Offline mclees8

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 09:09:04 »
Pope: Charlie Hebdo 'punch' not a justification of violence

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE (AP) — Pope Francis said Monday he wasn't justifying violence when he said a friend who had cursed his mother could "expect a punch" in return. Rather, he says he was only expressing a very human response to a provocation and that greater prudence was necessary to avoid such offense.

Francis clarified his comments about the limits of freedom of speech made last week in response to the terrorist attack against the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

Speaking to reporters en route home from the Philippines, Francis said: "In theory we can say a violent reaction to an offense or provocation isn't a good thing, that one shouldn't do it. In theory we can say what Gospel says, that we should turn the other cheek. In theory we can say that we have the freedom to express ourselves," he said. "But we are human. And there is prudence, which is a virtue of human coexistence. I cannot insult or provoke someone continually because I risk making him angry."

The "punch" line, and the confusion it caused, was a reflection of how Francis' informal, and sometimes unpapal, sense of humor can sometime cause confusion or get him in trouble.

In fact, moments after clarifying his Charlie Hebdo remarks, Francis told a story about a run-in he had back in the 1990s in Buenos Aires with two corrupt public officials who offered him the equivalent of $400,000 for his works of charity on the condition that they get some of it back as a kickback.

"And in that moment I thought, 'What should I do? Either insult them and kick them where the sun doesn't shine, or play the fool," Francis said.

He said he ended up playing the fool, but his response was further evidence that his casual speaking style is just that: casual.


I am one to call a spade a spade.  Evil will bring us more evil.  Surely we incite  war many times.  This should never be said of those who follow Christ

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #6 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 09:38:38 »
I believe this pope is taking the church farther away from living the will of the Father. 

In doing this the church will grow in numbers.  People want to believe they are righteous even though they are living as the world lives.
Jesus told us that we were to love our enemies.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” 

Offline kensington

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 13:18:26 »
He said...

"In theory we can say what the Gospel says, that we should turn the other cheek" 

In Theory? No.  In reality that is what the gospel says and we should be saying it, doing it and teaching it.  What a shame.  ::frown::

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 13:25:34 »
He said...

"In theory we can say what the Gospel says, that we should turn the other cheek" 

In Theory? No.  In reality that is what the gospel says and we should be saying it, doing it and teaching it.  What a shame.  ::frown::

Pretty sure the pope would say the same.

In reality we shouldn't be judging our brothers.
« Last Edit: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 13:29:48 by Catholica »

LexKnight

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 13:50:17 »
He's not mature anyway, but honestly if someone badmouth my wife or kids, they'll be fortunate if there's no physical response.

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 15:44:32 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 20:57:45 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 22:41:30 »

In Theory?  No.  In reality that is what the gospel says and we should be saying it, doing it and teaching it.  What a shame.  ::frown::

And if we don't? Am I condemned if I teach my son to defend himself from an attacker? Am I condemned if I defend myself from an attacker? 




« Last Edit: Wed Jan 21, 2015 - 22:50:29 by Ladonia »

Offline kensington

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #13 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 00:07:59 »
This was not about an attacker... or self defense.  It was about some rude comment.  Read the whole story.

And I am not the judge... the Word judges us.  Read the word.

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #14 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 06:21:37 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

Let's see:

John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Nope, not evil.

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 06:42:30 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

Let's see:

John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Nope, not evil.
(Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

his Pope wants people who are divorced and remarried, and homosexuals to be accepted by the church.  Paul told us to have nothing to do with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life.

Sodomites, and divorced people are leading immoral life, and scripture does not say to love them, but to have nothing to do with them.
Disobey God makes one evil.

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 09:42:14 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

Let's see:

John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Nope, not evil.
(Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

his Pope wants people who are divorced and remarried, and homosexuals to be accepted by the church.  Paul told us to have nothing to do with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life.

Sodomites, and divorced people are leading immoral life, and scripture does not say to love them, but to have nothing to do with them.
Disobey God makes one evil.

I see that you get your news from the secular media, who report things from the point of view of the world.  I will interpret them from you from a Catholic worldview, which I share with the pope.

The pope didn't say that people who are manifestly in sin should receive communion.  He said, I quote, "A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will -- well, who am I to judge him?"

Notice the phrase "who is seeking God, who is of good will".  "Good will" means that he is seeking God's will, which is not to sin, including the sin of a homosexual act.

Church teaching is that, before one who has sinned may receive communion, one must repent of any mortal sin, including homosexual acts and adultery.  The world has combined who a person is with what they do, in the case of so-called "homosexuals".  As Catholics, we do not.  We see the dignity in EVERY person, and recognize that EVERY person is called to try to do God's will, despite any fallen tendencies, including same-sex attraction among others.  So a person that the world calls a homosexual, the Pope rightly sees as a person, a person who is in need of God's mercy, just as we all do.  So these "homosexuals" are called to be chaste, and if they repent of their sin, then they rightly may receive communion.

Furthermore, the pope with regard to communion is seeking ways to try to help people who are in so-called "second marriages" to come back to Church so that they can receive communion again.  He is simply seeking pastoral ideas to rectify their situation.  The worldly seem threatened by open dialog, especially when people who profess things outside of church teaching write their ideas down, as if that is more powerful than actual thought.  There is no change in the rules, and people living in adulterous second marriages still must not receive communion, and that cannot change because the words of our Lord will not change.  But in mercy the Church tries to find ways within the moral order to help people escape from the slavery of sin, and being in an adulterous marriage is certainly a sinful yoke.  So pastorally, the Pope shows great love for these people, but not at the expense of skirting the moral order.

You have misjudged Pope Francis on these issues because perhaps you don't see the world from a Catholic worldview or don't see the whole picture.

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 09:59:13 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

Let's see:

John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Nope, not evil.
(Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

his Pope wants people who are divorced and remarried, and homosexuals to be accepted by the church.  Paul told us to have nothing to do with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life.

Sodomites, and divorced people are leading immoral life, and scripture does not say to love them, but to have nothing to do with them.
Disobey God makes one evil.

I see that you get your news from the secular media, who report things from the point of view of the world.  I will interpret them from you from a Catholic worldview, which I share with the pope.

The pope didn't say that people who are manifestly in sin should receive communion.  He said, I quote, "A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will -- well, who am I to judge him?"

Notice the phrase "who is seeking God, who is of good will".  "Good will" means that he is seeking God's will, which is not to sin, including the sin of a homosexual act.

Church teaching is that, before one who has sinned may receive communion, one must repent of any mortal sin, including homosexual acts and adultery.  The world has combined who a person is with what they do, in the case of so-called "homosexuals".  As Catholics, we do not.  We see the dignity in EVERY person, and recognize that EVERY person is called to try to do God's will, despite any fallen tendencies, including same-sex attraction among others.  So a person that the world calls a homosexual, the Pope rightly sees as a person, a person who is in need of God's mercy, just as we all do.  So these "homosexuals" are called to be chaste, and if they repent of their sin, then they rightly may receive communion.

Furthermore, the pope with regard to communion is seeking ways to try to help people who are in so-called "second marriages" to come back to Church so that they can receive communion again.  He is simply seeking pastoral ideas to rectify their situation.  The worldly seem threatened by open dialog, especially when people who profess things outside of church teaching write their ideas down, as if that is more powerful than actual thought.  There is no change in the rules, and people living in adulterous second marriages still must not receive communion, and that cannot change because the words of our Lord will not change.  But in mercy the Church tries to find ways within the moral order to help people escape from the slavery of sin, and being in an adulterous marriage is certainly a sinful yoke.  So pastorally, the Pope shows great love for these people, but not at the expense of skirting the moral order.

You have misjudged Pope Francis on these issues because perhaps you don't see the world from a Catholic worldview or don't see the whole picture.
No a homosexual is being led by the devil, and can’t be seeking God.

God did not make homosexuals.  Homosexual have accepted Satan’s lies/feelings as their own.  Because the homosexuals have enjoyed the lustful feeling that

Satan has given them, they remain homosexual. 

God did not make people homosexual just so he would have so many people to destroy, as he did Sodom and Gomorra.

Jesus once told me a friend of mine was bi-sexual, and was going out on his wife, with men.  Then Jesus had me tell my friend how he could be healed.

Jesus told me to tell my friend to picture Jesus on the cross, with his blood coming off his feet.  My friend was to then go and wrap his arms around the cross and let Jesus’ blood drip on him.

My friend was so applaud at the thought of doing what Jesus asked him to do, that he said it made his skin crawl.


My friend ran away from me.

No if the Pope was of God, he would know that a Christian is to have nothing to do with those who sin.   

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 10:01:39 »
No if the Pope was of God, he would know that a Christian is to have nothing to do with those who sin.

  Oh, you mean like Jesus did?  Like He shunned and mocked and rejected those that need Him most?  Yeah. Just like Jesus.   ::sarcasmalert: ::frown::


Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 10:15:17 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

Let's see:

John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Nope, not evil.
(Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

his Pope wants people who are divorced and remarried, and homosexuals to be accepted by the church.  Paul told us to have nothing to do with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life.

Sodomites, and divorced people are leading immoral life, and scripture does not say to love them, but to have nothing to do with them.
Disobey God makes one evil.

I see that you get your news from the secular media, who report things from the point of view of the world.  I will interpret them from you from a Catholic worldview, which I share with the pope.

The pope didn't say that people who are manifestly in sin should receive communion.  He said, I quote, "A gay person who is seeking God, who is of good will -- well, who am I to judge him?"

Notice the phrase "who is seeking God, who is of good will".  "Good will" means that he is seeking God's will, which is not to sin, including the sin of a homosexual act.

Church teaching is that, before one who has sinned may receive communion, one must repent of any mortal sin, including homosexual acts and adultery.  The world has combined who a person is with what they do, in the case of so-called "homosexuals".  As Catholics, we do not.  We see the dignity in EVERY person, and recognize that EVERY person is called to try to do God's will, despite any fallen tendencies, including same-sex attraction among others.  So a person that the world calls a homosexual, the Pope rightly sees as a person, a person who is in need of God's mercy, just as we all do.  So these "homosexuals" are called to be chaste, and if they repent of their sin, then they rightly may receive communion.

Furthermore, the pope with regard to communion is seeking ways to try to help people who are in so-called "second marriages" to come back to Church so that they can receive communion again.  He is simply seeking pastoral ideas to rectify their situation.  The worldly seem threatened by open dialog, especially when people who profess things outside of church teaching write their ideas down, as if that is more powerful than actual thought.  There is no change in the rules, and people living in adulterous second marriages still must not receive communion, and that cannot change because the words of our Lord will not change.  But in mercy the Church tries to find ways within the moral order to help people escape from the slavery of sin, and being in an adulterous marriage is certainly a sinful yoke.  So pastorally, the Pope shows great love for these people, but not at the expense of skirting the moral order.

You have misjudged Pope Francis on these issues because perhaps you don't see the world from a Catholic worldview or don't see the whole picture.
No a homosexual is being led by the devil, and can’t be seeking God.

God did not make homosexuals.  Homosexual have accepted Satan’s lies/feelings as their own.  Because the homosexuals have enjoyed the lustful feeling that

Satan has given them, they remain homosexual. 

God did not make people homosexual just so he would have so many people to destroy, as he did Sodom and Gomorra.

Jesus once told me a friend of mine was bi-sexual, and was going out on his wife, with men.  Then Jesus had me tell my friend how he could be healed.

Jesus told me to tell my friend to picture Jesus on the cross, with his blood coming off his feet.  My friend was to then go and wrap his arms around the cross and let Jesus’ blood drip on him.

My friend was so applaud at the thought of doing what Jesus asked him to do, that he said it made his skin crawl.


My friend ran away from me.

No if the Pope was of God, he would know that a Christian is to have nothing to do with those who sin.

Everyone sins, even Christians.

Your friend might have been creeped out by the idea of blood dripping on him.  Not everyone can handle that imagery.

If he was repentant but still had same-sex attraction, the world still considers him a homosexual, so the pope used words that most people can understand.  A person with same-sex attraction who resists acting on it (there are many) is absolutely accepted by God.

You also mentioned adultery.  Jesus had everything to do with the woman caught in adultery.  He told her to "go forth and sin no more" but in Jesus eyes, she had been restored.

There was a dangerous heresy called Jansenism that it seems like you might ascribe to.  If people never associated with sinners, then no one would ever be saved.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 11:07:29 »
God did not make homosexuals, then how did they come about? Come back to reality my friend Johnlove, some of them were indeed born that way and there is nothing you can do  to make them like members of the opposite sex in the normal way. As long as they don't engage in sinful homosexual activity and are seeking holiness, Jesus does indeed love them as much as he loves you and me.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 11:13:44 by Ladonia »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 11:12:45 »
As long as they don't engage in homosexual activity and are seeking holiness, Jesus does indeed love them as much as he loves you and me.

Jesus loves them even if they do...

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


They must repent and turn to Him to be saved, but they are always loved.

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 17:15:29 »
God did not make homosexuals, then how did they come about? Come back to reality my friend Johnlove, some of them were indeed born that way and there is nothing you can do  to make them like members of the opposite sex in the normal way. As long as they don't engage in sinful homosexual activity and are seeking holiness, Jesus does indeed love them as much as he loves you and me.
I gave you how homosexual come to be homosexual.  You don’t understand, but you will someday.

Do you truly believe Jesus would give someone such a heavy burden to bear?  Remember one who commits a homosexual act is a sinner, and will never enter the kingdom of God.  That is not coming from me that is scripture.

(Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

Also do you truly believe that God made all those people in Sodom, and Gomorra homosexuals just so he would have an excuse to kill them all?




Offline Ladonia

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 18:32:19 »
Johnlove said:Do you truly believe Jesus would give someone such a heavy burden to bear?


Yes. We all have burdens to bear and this is one of them. We are not talking here about just committing the act and not repenting, but committing the act and then seeking forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ.

Are you trying to say that forgiveness is not available to someone who sins in this manner?

And then you ask: Also do you truly believe that God made all those people in Sodom, and Gomorra homosexuals just so he would have an excuse to kill them all?

Yes, God made all those people too - just like he made Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. God did not make them just for an excuse to kill them, but delivered his just punishment to those who did not turn from their wicked ways.
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 18:41:06 by Ladonia »

Offline skeeter

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 20:27:13 »
he would know that a Christian is to have nothing to do with those who sin.

so much for sharing the love of God with people who need it... we should all just preach to our own choir!

guess I should just kick my 2 gay friends to the curb!  A terrible thing that I should be able to let them know that a Christian really likes them and cares about them...





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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 23:15:51 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

johnlove, is the Pope your antichrist?

Judging goes both ways. One can judge someone bad and one can judge someone good, but Johnlove, you seem to judge the Word..  ::wizard::
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 22, 2015 - 23:20:24 by Jd34 »

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #26 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 09:01:26 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.

johnlove, is the Pope your antichrist?

Judging goes both ways. One can judge someone bad and one can judge someone good, but Johnlove, you seem to judge the Word..  ::wizard::
If your two homosexual friends say they are Christian then you should have nothing to do with them.

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

Notice scripture confirms what I just wrote to you.
 

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 09:17:17 »
Johnlove said:Do you truly believe Jesus would give someone such a heavy burden to bear?


Yes. We all have burdens to bear and this is one of them. We are not talking here about just committing the act and not repenting, but committing the act and then seeking forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ.


You should know that a Spiritual Christian does not sin.  A Spiritual Christian is one who is in God.  A Spiritual Christian is one who has been given the knowledge of the truth.

(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”

Notice John said “This is how we know we are in him” Jesus did not sin.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them.  There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -----------“

There is no forgiveness for one who has been given the knowledge of the truth, and deliberately commits a sin.

A deliberate sin for a Spiritual Christian is a mortal sin, and truthfully that means death.

Now that is not what the Catholic Church teaches, but it used to teach that, before Constantine the Great


And then you ask: Also do you truly believe that God made all those people in Sodom, and Gomorra homosexuals just so he would have an excuse to kill them all?

Yes, God made all those people too - just like he made Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. God did not make them just for an excuse to kill them, but delivered his just punishment to those who did not turn from their wicked ways.
God did not make people evil.  God did not make people homosexual. Satan is the one who tempts people to be evil.

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 09:20:15 »
The pope is extremely mature.  He is surpassingly humble, has a great love for the poor and marginalized, is fearless when heading into hostile places, and has a great love for Jesus Christ and His Church.

If someone can't see that, then they are the blind ones.
Yes if one judges the pope by human reason.  But if one uses the written Word of God, then the pope is evil.
I personally believe the pope is an Anti-Christ, but not the Anti-Christ that is mentioned in Revelations.
johnlove, is the Pope your antichrist?

Judging goes both ways. One can judge someone bad and one can judge someone good, but Johnlove, you seem to judge the Word..  ::wizard::

Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 10:12:15 »
People are not homosexual.  There is no such thing.  Some people choose to commit sins, such as the sin of homosexual sex.  Because of original sin, all people have weakness to commit one sin or another.  God offers everyone of good will the grace to overcome those weaknesses and not sin.  People of good will choose to accept that grace, but the grace does always make the weakness go away.  St. Paul knew this, with his own "thorn in the flesh".  He admitted that he was weak, and in his weakness he "was strong" by the grace of God.

The same goes for people whom the world calls "homosexual".  They are, rather, people who have the weakness of same-sex attraction.  Other people have the weakness of pride, or the weakness of selfishness.  Pride is a worse weakness than same-sex attraction.  But God allows many people that weakness.  And so God does allow people the weakness of same-sex attraction.  He created them knowing that they would have this weakness.  Just like he created others with the weakness of lust, or pride, or greed.

This world confuses who a person is with what they do.  The Church was created to help people combat this, knowing that they have inherent dignity in spite of their weakness.  Through this truth, they can through God's grace come toward God even with their weakness and with God's grace, resist their weakness.  That goes for same-sex attraction as well.

People with same-sex attraction "of good will" as the Pope says, are more than welcome to God, and in fact are quite pleasing to God.  If we deny that we have sin, then the truth is not in us, says John in his first letter.

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 10:19:11 »
People are not homosexual.  There is no such thing.  Some people choose to commit sins, such as the sin of homosexual sex.  Because of original sin, all people have weakness to commit one sin or another.  God offers everyone of good will the grace to overcome those weaknesses and not sin.  People of good will choose to accept that grace, but the grace does always make the weakness go away.  St. Paul knew this, with his own "thorn in the flesh".  He admitted that he was weak, and in his weakness he "was strong" by the grace of God.

The same goes for people whom the world calls "homosexual".  They are, rather, people who have the weakness of same-sex attraction.  Other people have the weakness of pride, or the weakness of selfishness.  Pride is a worse weakness than same-sex attraction.  But God allows many people that weakness.  And so God does allow people the weakness of same-sex attraction.  He created them knowing that they would have this weakness.  Just like he created others with the weakness of lust, or pride, or greed.

This world confuses who a person is with what they do.  The Church was created to help people combat this, knowing that they have inherent dignity in spite of their weakness.  Through this truth, they can through God's grace come toward God even with their weakness and with God's grace, resist their weakness.  That goes for same-sex attraction as well.

People with same-sex attraction "of good will" as the Pope says, are more than welcome to God, and in fact are quite pleasing to God. 
Quote
If we deny that we have sin, then the truth is not in us, says John in his first letter.
Read the scripture below, and learn something.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.”

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ.  Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to seen Him or known Him.  My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning.  It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared.  No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them.  There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.  Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment.  We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people.  It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” 

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time.  They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Galatians 5:16“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.
Paul told us how it is that one can stay safe from sin. 


Offline Catholica

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 10:36:05 »
Well judging by your post, you suffer from both the sins of pride, and the sin of anger which Jesus equates to murder.  So I guess I should cut you off?

There is nothing in your selected verses that conflicts with what I say.  People who come into Christ simply don't cast off every sin.  If they think they do, then either they have dulled their conscience to what sin is, or they have deceived themselves into thinking that what they do cannot be sin, or they are trying very hard to hide their sins and not let other people see them.

Your verses in Hebrews speak of apostates or those in mortal sin.  "There is sin which is not deadly" says John in chapter 5.  Not all sin removes us from Christ.  But all sin divides our heart, so we are called as Christians to put off all sin.  And this is a process that Christians go through.  It is not instantaneous, though God may infuse a superabundance of grace for us in one time or another. 
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 12:36:30 by Catholica »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 12:16:06 »
As for forgiveness, let us go to the Scriptures and Jesus' own teaching. Matt 18 21-22. "Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven".

If Jesus tells us to forgive others up to seventy times seven, surely he will apply the same standard to us when we go to Him after we sin.
« Last Edit: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 12:20:30 by Ladonia »

Offline Johnlove

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 13:20:39 »
As for forgiveness, let us go to the Scriptures and Jesus' own teaching. Matt 18 21-22. "Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven".

If Jesus tells us to forgive others up to seventy times seven, surely he will apply the same standard to us when we go to Him after we sin.

Yes and is one’s brother God who came down from heaven to die on a cross so we could defeat Satan/sin?

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

If you read Hebrews ten all the way, you will see that a Spiritual Christian who sins is insulting the Holy Spirit, and there is no forgiveness for that.

Also haven’t you ever wondered why God killed, (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira.

If you read that scripture you will notice it was because they lied to the Holy Spirit, and that is insulting the Holy Spirit.


Offline skeeter

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Re: The Pope isn't spiritually mature.
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jan 23, 2015 - 23:24:32 »
If your two homosexual friends say they are Christian then you should have nothing to do with them.

(1 Corinthians 5:11) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that.”

Notice scripture confirms what I just wrote to you.
what you said previously is -

he would know that a Christian is to have nothing to do with those who sin.
Also according to YOU a Christian doesn't sin, remember?   

so Christians can't sin and shouldn't have anything to do with sinners... I guess according to you a Christian parent should have nothing to do with an unsaved child?

Then what IS Paul talking about above?  He is saying that you are wrong.