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Author Topic: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom  (Read 20325 times)

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Offline kamakaz

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2007, 07:47:20 AM »
Lee,

I appreciate these quotes acknowledging that the Roman Catholic Church accepts that there are believers not among them.  So what?

There is nothing here to indicate that these non-Catholic believers will be allowed to practice their faith openly once a nation becomes majority Catholic.  In fact, the opposite is true.  The Roman Catholic authorities have made that clear enough.

Where has the Roman Catholic Church renounced it's plans to suppress religious freedoms for non-Catholics?  Until you can produce this, you've got nothing to say that matters.

I don't know why some of you keep throwing out long-winded red herrings that in fact do not address the issue.

Smoke and mirrors, I guess.

Robert G

this is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in awhile. How will they inforce this? Will they go around with guns and kick people out of churches? That is what will need to be done, before most Christians will give up their religious freedom, and even them many still wont. which is why this is just another act of the devil to try to stir up fear and contravercy.
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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2007, 07:47:20 AM »

Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2007, 08:33:41 AM »
in 1864

Does Roman Catholicism, today, still hold to these positions?

That's what will be interesting to find out.  We're governed by a 225 year Consitution, aren't we?  And when part of it was voided (prohibition) it was amended to reflect that.

Upon reflection, I think rehashing numerous statements quoted in the Baxter tract would be unproductive (in the short term, anyway).  But I do intend to soon repost the Catholic "Doctrine of Mental Reservation", so we can explore whether the Roman Catholic Church still officially believes it's okay for it (the Church) to lie and state untruths.

Robert G

Robert, you have heard of a little get-together Pope John XXIII and his bishops had back in 1962? It was called Vatican II? I suggest you log on to EWTN and look it up.

Indiscrimiately quoting 140 year-old Catholic documents as if they're binding or normative for the Catholic Church today would be like me posting Campbell's 1826 "The Foundation of Hope and of Christian Union" (in which he says that belief and baptism are the only tests of fellowship and whether a baptized Christian holds Quaker, Methodist, Arminain, Calvinst, Baptist or Episcopalian views is irrelevant) and arguing that that was normative for all modern Churches of Christ.

Pax vobiscum.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 08:41:23 AM by Lee Freeman »
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2007, 08:33:41 AM »

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2007, 09:47:15 AM »
Well, not quite the same.  The pope does speak for the RCC.  Campbell spoke for Campbell.  By that standard, it would be a waste of time for Robert to look up the Vatican II documents, because calling them normative for the whole RCC would be like...see your example.
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Offline mistergus

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2007, 11:35:22 AM »
Actually Mistergus, the Syllabus of Errors you refer to does not state these things.  It has nothing to do with the desire to suppress freedom or dominate the world.  It is merely a collection of attitudes, philosophies, and religions that the Church deemed in error at that time and threatened the basic principles of Christianity.

You don't have any idea of what you are talking about.  I submit the link for those that wish to truly read what was stated by Pope Pius IX.  Although there may be some disagreements, I seriously doubt that many non-Catholics will have a problem with what he said.  For example, one of the things found in error:

"Divine revelation is imperfect, and therefore subject to a continual and indefinite progress, corresponding with the advancement of human reason."

This is just one attitude of that time period that the Pope specifically condemns.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm


I appreciate the link.  Very interesting. 

So how do you account for these Papal statements?


------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Catholic Church  Never Teaches Erroneous Doctrine


     “...Not least among the blessings which have resulted from the public and legitimate honor paid to the Blessed Virgin and the saints is the perfect and perpetual immunity of the Church from error and heresy. We may well admire in this the admirable wisdom of the Providence of God, who, ever bringing good out of evil, has from time to time suffered the faith and piety of men to grow weak, and allowed Catholic truth to be attacked by false doctrines, but always with the result that truth has afterwards shone out with greater splendor, and that men's faith, aroused from its lethargy, has shown itself more vigorous than before.

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2007, 11:35:22 AM »

Offline kamakaz

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2007, 11:38:20 AM »
Lee,

I appreciate these quotes acknowledging that the Roman Catholic Church accepts that there are believers not among them.  So what?

There is nothing here to indicate that these non-Catholic believers will be allowed to practice their faith openly once a nation becomes majority Catholic.  In fact, the opposite is true.  The Roman Catholic authorities have made that clear enough.

Where has the Roman Catholic Church renounced it's plans to suppress religious freedoms for non-Catholics?  Until you can produce this, you've got nothing to say that matters.

I don't know why some of you keep throwing out long-winded red herrings that in fact do not address the issue.

Smoke and mirrors, I guess.

Robert G

this is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in awhile. How will they inforce this? Will they go around with guns and kick people out of churches? That is what will need to be done, before most Christians will give up their religious freedom, and even them many still wont. which is why this is just another act of the devil to try to stir up fear and contravercy.

Anyone care to explain how they will take over the world? i still have not seen an answer. will it be with guns? or are we just suppose to bow down and give up?
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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2007, 11:38:20 AM »



Offline mistergus

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2007, 11:41:03 AM »
Anyone care to explain how they will take over the world? i still have not seen an answer. will it be with guns? or are we just suppose to bow down and give up?

How did they manage to do it in Mexico?  There's no real religious freedom there.  Only the Catholic Church is allowed to operate without interference.

Robert G

Offline kamakaz

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2007, 11:42:46 AM »
Anyone care to explain how they will take over the world? i still have not seen an answer. will it be with guns? or are we just suppose to bow down and give up?

How did they manage to do it in Mexico?  There's no real religious freedom there.

Robert G

first of all that is not entirely true, and second that is not america. and how did they do it? with guns? I really do not know. But I know there are Christian churches and/or groups in mexico.
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Offline Dennis

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2007, 12:45:44 PM »
Anyone care to explain how they will take over the world? i still have not seen an answer. will it be with guns? or are we just suppose to bow down and give up?

How did they manage to do it in Mexico?  There's no real religious freedom there.

Robert G

first of all that is not entirely true, and second that is not america. and how did they do it? with guns? I really do not know. But I know there are Christian churches and/or groups in mexico.
We send groups down every year.  They have a great time with our Mexican brothers and sisters.  I am not aware of any interference from either the Mexican governement or the Catholic Church.

Offline kamakaz

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #113 on: November 01, 2007, 12:47:11 PM »
i agree, no one seems to want to answer the question of how the RCC will take over the world or america directly, wonder why?
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Offline Its Alive

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #114 on: November 01, 2007, 01:05:12 PM »
In case anyone is remotely interested in knowing the truth about the relationship between the Mexican government and the Roman Catholic Church,  look here:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3736/is_199801/ai_n8766025/pg_1

Offline kamakaz

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2007, 01:12:41 PM »
the RRC is in conflict with the government, it has not taken over the government, nor does it seem to have regained many of the rights/power taken away by the government, so it seems to be in a weaker state, but i have more to read.

i still do not see how this would relate to america? How would the RCC literally take control over america's churchs?
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Offline mllevaleur

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #116 on: November 01, 2007, 01:15:31 PM »
The problem with the supposed quotes from the Syllabus of Errors is that they are obviously not direct quotes, because if they were these quotes would be condemned by the syllabus as error.

In reality, the quotes submitted were distortions of what is actually being said, and considering the extremely precise language that is used in such documents, a summary from a third party simply won't do.

For instance, if I say...

[it is error that...] Protestants alone should be allowed to be the President of the United States.

...for someone to reformulate that into a positive statement which says...

"It is a requirement that a Catholic HAS to be the President of the United States."

...would be erronious. That's not what I said at all, I'm simply saying that it should be left open as an option for a Catholic to be president, a Catholic should not be barred from the presidency by virtue of his profession of faith. (Same goes for a Protestant.)

That is what a lot of the actual quotes are saying, that certain Catholic ideas shouldn't be condemned outright (referring to local European philosophies of that time period which often ran counter to Catholicism and Christianity in general), not that it is a requirement that they be implemented worldwide. I know it's shocking to Americans to even dream of a government different than their own that could actually somewhat work, but for a lot of history many states were tied up with the majority religion, and there are of course pros and cons to that, just as there are pros and cons to democracy. For instance, in a Catholic state abortion would never have been made legal. That doesn't mean there has to be a theocracy and that everyone would be forced to be Catholic, it just means the laws were based on Christian Catholic concepts and Catholicism was the way of the land. The document is saying the idea that this kind of government should be outright condemned and that it could never work is erronious. It's not saying Catholics need to take over the world and enforce that kind of government everywhere. But if people got together and decided that's what kind of government they wanted, they shouldn't be stopped from doing that.

Anyway, there is a very interesting article here that goes through the syllabus line by line and explains what was meant, and what wasn't meant. Here are some excerpts:

Many of the errors condemned in this section [referring to section IV] were from a time when the popes were both Supreme Pontiffs of the universal church and also temporal princes in their own rights. (Bl. Pope Pius IX was the last pope who was also a temporal prince.) The Italian army seized the Papal States in 1870 and the popes were basically confined to the Vatican until 1929 when the independent Vatican City state was created by the Lateran Treaty of 1929. (Based on a Concordant between the Holy See and the Italian government under Benito Mussolini.) Because of these circumstances, many of these errors are not applicable today as they were when they were issued due to the changed political landscape. This is a significant nuance that is often not taken into account by detractors to the Magisterium...
.........................
[it is error that...]24. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. -- Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851.

[it is error that...]25. Besides the power inherent in the episcopate, other temporal power has been attributed to it by the civil authority granted either explicitly or tacitly, which on that account is revocable by the civil authority whenever it thinks fit. -- Ibid.

Since 1870, this condemnation is no longer applicable. Vatican City has no army and the Swiss Guard are hardly invasion-force material to put it bluntly. Since Vatican City is a sovereign state, there is some temporal power, however limited. Thus by example all popes since 1929 have exercised some temporal power, and that is adequate to refute the assertion that the Church has no temporal power. As for point twenty-five, Vatican II taught that the episcopate was invested with power from God, not temporal governments. Also, at no time has the Church taught that she has no right to possess temporal power. The Papal States were seized by Italy in 1870 and the popes since that time have had to live with that fact. By no means does this accommodation imply granting assent to condemned proposition twenty-five though.
.........................................
[it is error that...]55. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

In 1864, Pius IX had issued his Syllabus of Errors. Among the condemned propositions was that "the church should be separated from the state and the state from the church." Archbishop Spalding of Baltimore issued a pastoral letter stating that the pope "evidently intended" his words "for the stand-point of European radicals and infidels," who sought to undermine the Church. Far different, he argued, was the First Amendment that laid "down the sound and equitable principle that civil government, adhering strictly to its own appropriate sphere of political duty, pledged itself not to interfere with religious matters, which it rightly viewed as entirely without the bounds of its competency."

Archbishop Spaulding received no rebuke from Rome for his interpretation of point fifty-five of the Syllabus where he pointed out that the target of the condemnation was "European radicals and infidels who sought to undermine the Church." It therefore cannot be taken in and of itself as a condemnation of the sort of separation that a constitutional republic would make between church and state.
............................................ .............
[it is error that...]77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.

The explanation of the great theologian Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman from his Letter to the Duke of Norfolk will be referenced as Newman spoke on this theme:

When we turn to the Allocution, which is the ground of its being put into the Syllabus, what do we find there? First, that the Pope was speaking, not of States universally, but of one particular State, Spain, definitely Spain; secondly, that he was not noting the erroneous proposition directly, or categorically, but was protesting against the breach in many ways of the Concordat on the part of the Spanish government; further, that he was NOT referring to any work containing the said proposition, NOR contemplating any proposition at all; NOR, on the other hand, using any word of condemnation whatever, NOR using any harsher terms of the Government in question than an expression of "his wonder and distress". And again, taking the Pope's remonstrance as it stands, is it any great cause of complaint to Englishmen, who so lately were severe in their legislation upon Unitarians, Catholics, unbelievers, and others, that the Pope merely does not think it expedient for every state from this time forth to tolerate every sort of religion on its territory, and to disestablish the Church at once? For this is all that he denies.
............................................ ...........
[it is error that...]78. Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

This...is an injunction against the civil authority of a Catholic nation. The error is presuming that in a Catholic country it is wise to promulgate civil laws to declare the non-Catholic to have public exercise of their religion. [my note - seeing as we don't really have any Catholic countries around anymore, the point is quite moot. Likewise, that does not mean there could not be freedom of religion, just that it would not be necessary to make civil laws concerning other religions.] Vatican II, with the subject of religious liberty, dealt with the rights of individuals to freedom from coersion from practicing their religion provided that they were not disturbing the public order. Here is how public order was defined by Dignitatis Humanae :

The right to religious freedom is exercised in human society: hence its exercise is subject to certain regulatory norms. In the use of all freedoms the moral principle of personal and social responsibility is to be observed. In the exercise of their rights, individual men and social groups are bound by the moral law to have respect both for the rights of others and for their own duties toward others and for the common welfare of all. Men are to deal with their fellows in justice and civility.

Furthermore, society has the right to defend itself against possible abuses committed on the pretext of freedom of religion. It is the special duty of government to provide this protection. However, government is not to act in an arbitrary fashion or in an unfair spirit of partisanship. Its action is to be controlled by juridical norms which are in conformity with the objective moral order. These norms arise out of the need for the effective safeguard of the rights of all citizens and for the peaceful settlement of conflicts of rights, also out of the need for an adequate care of genuine public peace, which comes about when men live together in good order and in true justice, and finally out of the need for a proper guardianship of public morality.

These matters constitute the basic component of the common welfare: they are what is meant by public order.


Anyway, the whole thing has lots of good info if anyone is interested, I've got laundry to do!
-Stephanie

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Offline kamakaz

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #117 on: November 01, 2007, 01:22:02 PM »
i cant believe people got their *___* in a bunch over this OP. the RCC is never going to take over the world or america. plain and simple, all these misquotes and ancient documents are just smoke screens to produce fear or contraversy. i seriously doubt anyone here is in real fear of the RCC, but if you are remember this: (and you can lay this silly fear to rest):

greater is He who is in me, than he who is in the world. And God causes ALL things to work for good to those who love Him. not to mention the many times He said, 'fear not for i am with you always, even to the end of the age, and I will never leave nor forsake you.

So why r u so afraid of the RCC or anything for that matter?
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Offline janine

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #118 on: November 01, 2007, 01:32:32 PM »
As I say to the "End-Timers", also.  I don't agree with the premise, but even if it's 100% correct and this worrisome thing happens just this way --

What do we want to do about it?

What can we do about it?

What alternative result would we want to achieve?

What alternative result could we achieve?

What difference does it make, in my daily life, if it happens or if it doesn't  How does it change the way I need to live, as a Christian, today?

And, should I dig out a veil to wear to church?
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Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #119 on: November 01, 2007, 01:59:48 PM »
i agree, no one seems to want to answer the question of how the RCC will take over the world or america directly, wonder why?

I still think it'll be Swiss Guard commandos.

Pax.
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)