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Author Topic: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom  (Read 21608 times)

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Offline Dennis

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #175 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 13:13:22 »
That's actually the section of history I've been reading lately, from a few different sources.  Some of information (or perhaps misinformation in some cases) is not to be laid only at the feet of Catholic critics (Protestants, et al.) though, as there are quite a few more "secular" historians who do quite a number as well.  Catholic apologists are quick to distance the Catholic church from the execution of John Huss.  Secular sources say he was condemned at the Counsel of Constance because of his Wycliffian teachings, etc. and that the counsel had him burned at the stake to prove their own orthodoxy.  Apologists say it was really just the civil authorities that executed him.  Pope JP II said the church made a mistake in having him executed...which sounds like an admission that it wasn't really just the civil authorities behind his death, at least to me.

I share that example to simply say that our problem with history is that at this distance, it's hard to be very trustworthy of either side's accounting.  Personally, it leaves me often ::shrug:: ::headscratch::.
At least in England, without going into all of technical legal rules of procedure which I am not sure I know, all executions were conducted by the secular authorities.  So when the Church decided someone must go, the condemned was handed over to the civil authorities.  Occasionally conflicts arose between the Church authorities and the crown as to whether a capital offense had been committed.  But in any event, the fact the actual execution was performed by civil authorities is no more absolving than is the fact the Romans actually drove the nails for those of us whose sin led to Jesus' crucifixion.

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #175 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 13:13:22 »

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #176 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 13:35:35 »
We Protestants have no business removing the speck in Catholicism's eye while there's a Redwood stuck in ours!

The Pope doesn't "pretend to be God," he believes he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, the chief Pastor of  the Church. And no, the Catholic Church is NOT pagan in origin.

I'm all for voicing objections to views of other denominations one believes are wrong, but they should be legitimate objections to legimitate teachings, not caricatures of what that other denomination teaches. Anyone can google a few online documents or leaf through a few books and tracts by a denomination and "prove" they're apostate. And finding polemic works is easy!


After someone has carefully studied a faith tradition such as Catholicism, then they are in a position to object all they like, but not until they really have a good idea of what they're objecting to.

Pax.
Having met the criteria you deemed necessary to comment, I should be free to do so.

I agree with your first statement that Protestantism today is in as pitiful condition as Romanism is, and that is the way it was prophesied to be.

I also agree with your second statement, except that the word Vicar actually means “in the place of or substitute

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #176 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 13:35:35 »

Offline broach972

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #177 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:15:36 »
Vatican II affirmed Trent.

CRP


Circuit, it does my heart good that you have read all of the documents that were issued during Vatican II.  Could you please explain them to me?

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #178 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:29:51 »
Vatican II affirmed Trent.

CRP


Circuit, it does my heart good that you have read all of the documents that were issued during Vatican II.  Could you please explain them to me?

I am not really interested in discussing whether the mass should be done in latin or not, but suffice to say this should do it for you.

 “Over against both tendencies, before all else, it must be stated that Vatican II is upheld by the same authority as Vatican I and the Council of Trent, namely, the Pope and the College of Bishops in communion with him, and that also with regard to its contents, Vatican II is in the strictest continuity with both previous councils and incorporates their texts word for word in decisive points.

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #178 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:29:51 »

Offline mllevaleur

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #179 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:32:23 »
Quote
And, it's a bit pie in the sky to think that everyone will read that history the same way.  Better, istm, to deal with it head on than to ask people to ignore it (which is what it sometimes seems some here are asking people to do).

Honestly...I haven't seen many Catholics here who say, "Oh ignore all that...just trust me, it's not what you think." I've seen plenty who have spent time and energy trying to put historical quotes that have been conveniently plucked out, back into their historical context. I've seen attempts to explain our POV on certain events, not to excuse them, but again to put them back in a proper context. I've seen exaggerations be challenged, and I've even seen admissions that the Church does indeed have blemishes in her past that should not be ignored or swept under the rug.

From the other side, I've seen faux history being presented, attempts at correcting it ignored on the grounds that anything coming from a Catholic concerning history can't be trusted and must be untrue, venom spewed in return to attempts at explanation, insults, etc. (Alongside plenty of other non-Catholics who tried to minimize that and stop any unfairness, which I greatly appreciate!  ::tippinghat:: )

So...I guess I haven't seen many Catholics here, or non-Catholics of the non-anti-Catholic variety, saying "ignore that." And you know what...that's kind of what I found of (knowledgeable) Catholics in general when I first started actually looking at history for myself and not getting it from anti-Catholic sources alone. Now, with my anti-Catholic ears prior to that, if I heard someone putting it back in historical context I immediately thought, "Ugh...trying to justify those atrocities and ignore history." But, when I actually looked at what they were saying and considered it, I found, to my surprise, I was the one ignoring stuff. What they were saying could largely be backed up with secular history sources.

That's actually the section of history I've been reading lately, from a few different sources.  Some of information (or perhaps misinformation in some cases) is not to be laid only at the feet of Catholic critics (Protestants, et al.) though, as there are quite a few more "secular" historians who do quite a number as well.  Catholic apologists are quick to distance the Catholic church from the execution of John Huss.  Secular sources say he was condemned at the Counsel of Constance because of his Wycliffian teachings, etc. and that the counsel had him burned at the stake to prove their own orthodoxy.  Apologists say it was really just the civil authorities that executed him.  Pope JP II said the church made a mistake in having him executed...which sounds like an admission that it wasn't really just the civil authorities behind his death, at least to me.

I share that example to simply say that our problem with history is that at this distance, it's hard to be very trustworthy of either side's accounting.  Personally, it leaves me often ::shrug:: ::headscratch::.

I can understand that, but I think the best thing is to read both sides, try to find unbiased sources whenever possible, read those too, and see which makes the most sense, and fits the most facts. I really do believe it's possible to gather enough reliable evidence to support one side or another, or see if they can fit together, and to just use the old noggin and think critically about this stuff with the available info.

For instance, your example...I've not studied it in depth and don't remember many details, but going purely on what you said it sounds to me like the secular side is acknowledging the close ties Church and State had at the time (which they did...which MOST Churches and states did as a given), while the apologists are trying to put something that sounds shocking to our modern ears (we who hold up the separation of Church and State as a fundamental principal) back into context, to remind people that it wasn't just the Catholics that were tied up with the state, that's just how stuff was done back then! And then JPII is saying, regardless of what was commonly done at the time, we now realize executing people (whether it's the state or church that does it) for heresy is not a good thing, and we apologize for the part we played in it in this specific case, and others. (Cue all the other groups who did the same thing for their own apology...) That apology is NOT admitting the often-held idea that it was just the Catholic Church doing that kind of thing, nor is that what most (fair and unbiased) secular sources are saying (they're usually just reporting the facts), and that is all that most of the apologists are trying to point out, that it was a human problem and not a uniquely Catholic one. So...they kind of all fit together, you just have to see what it is each one is trying to say, and what angle they're coming from.  

The biggest problem, in my experience, occurs when people have strong internal bias, and don't want to believe certain things, and do want to believe other certain things to justify their bias. (And that, of course, can happen on either side.) What happens then is talking past each other...one side assumes they know what they other side is saying, and they don't actually listen. The respond with some non sequitor because they didn't listen, and they don't think they need to listen because they already know.

For instance, for specifically anti-Catholic bias, people point fingers at the violence and such of times past, and often blame it on the Catholic Church, because conveniently there were no protestants around to blame it on! But the problem was not a specifically Catholic one...it was usually a HUMAN one. Look at the times and culture of the crusades and inquisition, and you'll find, not a largely peaceful society with a mean awful Catholic hierarchy trying to cause trouble in its midst, but a generally often violent society, with contemporary human beings who lived in that society and were used to it who happen to also be Catholic.  Was there corruption in the Church? Yes! Just like there was corruption in any organization of the day. Were bad things done in the name of religion? Yes! Just like bad things were done in the name of the king, or society, or family, or any other human organization.

Now, the problem is plenty of things have been exaggerated, taken out of context, misunderstood, blame has been misapplied, and so on and so forth, and it's often hard and exhausting to have to wade through all of that to get to the factual truth, and then begin to put it back in historical context. Again, that's not to justify any wrong that was done, but to more accurately be able to see what wrong was actually done and why, and to consider the surrounding culture. Now, try doing this with someone who wants to believe the worst and who wants to blame the Catholics for everything, and they will typically stop listening before they start and assume you're just trying to excuse/justify/ignore history, then accuse you of such for trying to explain without having taken the time to consider what you said at all, because they "already know" you're just going to deny any wrongdoing on behalf of the Catholic Church...because that's what Catholics do.

It's a vicious circle.

It's really quite frustrating, especially when you have to start from scratch with each new person who brings out the same old arguments based on exaggerations and faux history.

Anyway...don't know where I'm going with all that, lol, I'll just stop there!

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #179 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:32:23 »



Offline mllevaleur

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #180 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 15:36:31 »
Vatican II affirmed Trent.

CRP


Circuit, it does my heart good that you have read all of the documents that were issued during Vatican II.  Could you please explain them to me?

I am not really interested in discussing whether the mass should be done in latin or not, but suffice to say this should do it for you.

 “Over against both tendencies, before all else, it must be stated that Vatican II is upheld by the same authority as Vatican I and the Council of Trent, namely, the Pope and the College of Bishops in communion with him, and that also with regard to its contents, Vatican II is in the strictest continuity with both previous councils and incorporates their texts word for word in decisive points.

Offline mllevaleur

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #181 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 16:11:50 »
Quote
The origin of the Roman church is a syncretistic marriage between the church and the world, facilitated by Constantine.


Although I disagree with the "origin" of the Church comment, I do agree that Constantine helped to bring people to Christ often through using what they were already familiar with.

See, we Catholics believe in an Incarnational Christianity. God became Flesh, and in the same way we believe it's a GOOD thing to unite Spiritual and Physical. Physical things can help us relate to and better understand Spiritual things. We are not gnostics who think matter is evil and to be avoided.

Your quote above reminded me of something I read recently and posted about on my blog. I was actually talking about celebrating Christmas, and how we didn't consider it a religious holiday growing up, but it relates here as well.

I'm reminded of a blog post from Mark Shea I read a while back about Harry Potter and Pharisees. (Yeah, I know...go with me here!) He describes how the Pharisees are so focused on remaining clean by remaining separated from all "unclean things", that they completely miss the lesson when Jesus comes. The laws from God that were supposed to humble them and teach them that there was no way, through their own power, they could be sanctified, to prepare them for the idea that Jesus alone has the power to sanctify, were kind of twisted around. They set up so many rules to try and keep themselves clean (which was a noble idea) that they ended up convincing themselves they didn't need any cleansing.

And so in an ironic way, they take the mirror of ritual uncleanness that God has given them in the Mosaic Law, and instead of seeing in it an image of their own uncleanness and defilement by sin, the turn it around and say to those around them, "See how unclean you are!"

Naturally then, when Jesus appears on the scene, they simply do not know what to do with him and are motivated by their pride to misunderstand him. Jesus, in Matthew 8, turns the Pharisaic understanding of the law on its head. He touches lepers and they are healed (8:1 4), receives Gentiles and they receive faith (8:5-13), consorts with demon-possessed people in a cemetery and they are restored (8:28-31), and, in the next chapter, permits the touch of a menstruating woman and she's healed (9:18-22), touches the dead and she is raised (9:25), and eats with tax collectors and sinners and makes them saints (9:9-13). Yet, in all this, they see only the ritual defilement, not the revolutionary reversal in the flow of power. For, as Jesus points out elsewhere, pride has blinded them (John 9:35-41). They are so certain they are clean they cannot say, "Lord, if you're willing, you can make me clean." And so they miss the crucial lesson that the time for separation is past. In Israel's childhood, separation from uncleanness and sin was necessary just as it is necessary for us to keep our children from "bad influences" lest they become imitators. But with the dawn of the power of the Kingdom of Heaven, it is the bad influences that are to be conquered with good ones, sin that is to be conquered with virtue, and death that is to be conquered with life.

So what does this have to do with Harry Potter?
[And Worldly Christmas?]

Well, the funny thing about the gospel is how often, in the history of the Church, the Church has fulfilled Jesus promise, "if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them" (Mark 16:18). The Church has drunk from all sorts of pagan wells, ranging from Plato and Aristotle, to the various ways in which Norse, German, Druidic, Roman, Indian, and other forms of pagan culture have been baptised and turned to the service of Christ. The Pharisaic approach is to reject--as the Pharisees rejected Christ--the possibility that he really holds power over the devil. It is a mentality that never considers the opposite possibility: namely, that Christ has power to conquer what defiled us under the old law and turn it to his glory.


So, we see what Constantine did as turning human constructs to Christ's glory, using what people knew to introduce them to Christ. We don't see this as "tainting" Christianity, but rather the other way around...as sanctifying worldly things to be used for the glory of God, the way that Jesus came and was not defiled by lepors and sinners the way the Pharisees assumed he would be, but rather there was a complete reversal of power there, and Christ, instead, cleansed them rather than being made unclean himself.

I highly recommend this three part series on Pharisees and purity, it really made a lot of things "click" for me mentally, especially having grown up in the CoC where the mentality is often similar to the one described.

Part 1: Pharisaic Purity
Part 2: A Christian Approach to Purity
Part 3: Sterility and Fruitfulness

Offline broach972

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #182 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:10:40 »
I am not really interested in discussing whether the mass should be done in latin or not, but suffice to say this should do it for you.


Circuit, you just confirmed what I thought.  If you think that this is the only issue that was discussed during Vatican II, you are as clueless as I thought you were.  Read the documents, then we can have a discussion on what Vatican II was all about.  You can find them on the Vatican website.  They are not secretive or anything. 

And as Mllevaleur pointed out, (glad to see you Mllevaleur), it did affirm the teachings of previous councils...the Church is pretty consistent when it comes to doctrine...has been for 2000 years.

Here is the link to those documents....

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm

You may actually learn a thing or two...

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #183 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:37:23 »
And as Mllevaleur pointed out, (glad to see you Mllevaleur), it did affirm the teachings of previous councils...the Church is pretty consistent when it comes to doctrine...has been for 2000 years.
I know that, and you know that, but at least now we have a couple of admissions of this for Lee Freeman.

Make no mistake about it, as Rome was, Rome is.

One of the biggest problems is that they don't allow you to actually have salvation, they refer to assurance of sins forgiven as the sin of presumption. If someone is not even allowed to know for certain that they are saved, how are they going to show anyone else how to have eternal life? Wouldn't that make them a blind guide?


CRP

Offline Jimbob

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #184 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 17:44:55 »
Quote
And, it's a bit pie in the sky to think that everyone will read that history the same way.  Better, istm, to deal with it head on than to ask people to ignore it (which is what it sometimes seems some here are asking people to do).

Honestly...I haven't seen many Catholics here who say, "Oh ignore all that...just trust me, it's not what you think."
No, it really hasn't been Catholics, but over the last few years there have been some who have when the subject's come up.

Offline broach972

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #185 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 18:08:27 »
One of the biggest problems is that they don't allow you to actually have salvation, they refer to assurance of sins forgiven as the sin of presumption. If someone is not even allowed to know for certain that they are saved, how are they going to show anyone else how to have eternal life? Wouldn't that make them a blind guide?


CRP


What would give you this notion?  Circuit, I could spend hours talking to you.  However, I think alot of this stuff is just over your head a little.

I have salvation.  I will put it like this.  What would my response be, like any other Catholic, if I am asked the magic question--Are you saved?  My response would be...

"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

Sounds pretty biblical to me...Amen...


Offline mistergus

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #186 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 18:59:45 »
Again, it wopuld do all good to check out amazing statements from the Roman Catholic Church...


http://www.lightministries.com/id524.htm#laws_1


It is amazing...The Roman Church thinks it's above the scriptures...everything...

What a body of scriptural perversion.

Robet G

Offline Nevertheless

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #187 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 21:18:04 »
It also amazes me that even though the theology of Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity is almost identical, it is Catholicism that recieves much of the attack.

Catholicism is much more in the public eye than Orthodoxy.

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #188 on: Tue Dec 18, 2007 - 22:23:57 »
One of the biggest problems is that they don't allow you to actually have salvation, they refer to assurance of sins forgiven as the sin of presumption. If someone is not even allowed to know for certain that they are saved, how are they going to show anyone else how to have eternal life? Wouldn't that make them a blind guide?


CRP


What would give you this notion?  Circuit, I could spend hours talking to you.  However, I think alot of this stuff is just over your head a little.

I have salvation.  I will put it like this.  What would my response be, like any other Catholic, if I am asked the magic question--Are you saved?  My response would be...

"As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

Sounds pretty biblical to me...Amen...



Your answer is just a smokescreen that I have heard a hundred times before. A little more digging gets to the heart of the matter.

1) Do you presently HAVE everlasting life? Yes or No
2) If you have something that is everlasting, can it end? Yes or No
3) If you died right now, where would you spend eternity? Heaven, Hell, or other.


CRP

Offline broach972

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #189 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 06:16:00 »
Your answer is just a smokescreen that I have heard a hundred times before. A little more digging gets to the heart of the matter.

1) Do you presently HAVE everlasting life? Yes or No
2) If you have something that is everlasting, can it end? Yes or No
3) If you died right now, where would you spend eternity? Heaven, Hell, or other.


CRP

Circuit, if you have a problem with what Scripture says, then I am definitely not the person you should be talking to...

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #190 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 07:11:38 »
Your answer is just a smokescreen that I have heard a hundred times before. A little more digging gets to the heart of the matter.

1) Do you presently HAVE everlasting life? Yes or No
2) If you have something that is everlasting, can it end? Yes or No
3) If you died right now, where would you spend eternity? Heaven, Hell, or other.


CRP

Circuit, if you have a problem with what Scripture says, then I am definitely not the person you should be talking to...
If you are actually saved, you should easily be able to answer the questions. Remember, you could be just one heartbeat away from eternity.

CRP

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #191 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 07:20:11 »
Ahem....

Quote
1.5 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she genuinely believes in Jesus Christ as the savior of human beings from hell and claims to have demonstrable faith in Him.

Offline broach972

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #192 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 07:37:16 »
Your answer is just a smokescreen that I have heard a hundred times before. A little more digging gets to the heart of the matter.

1) Do you presently HAVE everlasting life? Yes or No
2) If you have something that is everlasting, can it end? Yes or No
3) If you died right now, where would you spend eternity? Heaven, Hell, or other.


CRP

Circuit, if you have a problem with what Scripture says, then I am definitely not the person you should be talking to...
If you are actually saved, you should easily be able to answer the questions. Remember, you could be just one heartbeat away from eternity.

CRP

Circuit, I answered these questions in a previous post.  My answer was pretty much to the point.

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #193 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 07:54:26 »
Ahem....

Quote
1.5 You will not directly state or otherwise imply that another member is not a Christian if he or she genuinely believes in Jesus Christ as the savior of human beings from hell and claims to have demonstrable faith in Him.

I am not telling nor implying, I am merely asking to see if he has demonstrable faith in Christ. If a person has demonstrable faith in Christ, those are pretty easy questions to answer.

CRP

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #194 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 07:56:14 »
Your answer is just a smokescreen that I have heard a hundred times before. A little more digging gets to the heart of the matter.

1) Do you presently HAVE everlasting life? Yes or No
2) If you have something that is everlasting, can it end? Yes or No
3) If you died right now, where would you spend eternity? Heaven, Hell, or other.


CRP

Circuit, if you have a problem with what Scripture says, then I am definitely not the person you should be talking to...
If you are actually saved, you should easily be able to answer the questions. Remember, you could be just one heartbeat away from eternity.

CRP

Circuit, I answered these questions in a previous post.  My answer was pretty much to the point.
Three words is all I am looking for.

CRP

marc

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #195 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 08:00:31 »
Number two is a leading question the way I read it.  I would imagine the other two may seem to be leading questions to others.

Recognize differences in people's perspective rather than assuming they conform to yours, and you may be able to better understand their answers.

Offline Circuitridingpreacher

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #196 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 08:08:25 »
Number two is a leading question the way I read it.  I would imagine the other two may seem to be leading questions to others.

Recognize differences in people's perspective rather than assuming they conform to yours, and you may be able to better understand their answers.

Of course it is leading, since God only gave us two choices I am trying to make it as obvious as I can.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

CRP

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #197 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 08:15:51 »
Number two is a leading question the way I read it.  I would imagine the other two may seem to be leading questions to others.

Recognize differences in people's perspective rather than assuming they conform to yours, and you may be able to better understand their answers.

Of course it is leading, since God only gave us two choices I am trying to make it as obvious as I can.



News Flash:  You Ain't God, so you may want to try to be a little more flexible.

Unless, of course, you're claiming Special Revelation.  If not, the rest of us also know how to read, thank you.

(btw, have you ever heard of anyone choosing to walk away from a lifetime contract?)

Offline mistergus

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #198 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 17:26:02 »
Unless, of course, you're claiming Special Revelation.  If not, the rest of us also know how to read, thank you.

Just a reminder...

Anytime someone claims, "God showed me", or something like that, they are claiming direct inspiration, and are putting themselves on a level with Paul, and other Biblical writers.  And as such, their thoughts are on a par with scripture (or so they think, even if they don't admit).

I'd love to witness an argument between two who both believe "God told them"...

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Robert G
« Last Edit: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 18:01:21 by mistergus »

Offline charlie

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #199 on: Wed Dec 19, 2007 - 20:00:55 »
I'd love to witness an argument between two who both believe "God told them"...

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Robert G

Just about like witnessing an argument between two people who both claim to have read the bible and studied for themselves.

Sometimes it's a hoot. Sometimes it's just plain nasty.

Offline mistergus

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #200 on: Thu Dec 20, 2007 - 17:32:02 »
I'd love to witness an argument between two who both believe "God told them"...

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Robert G

Just about like witnessing an argument between two people who both claim to have read the bible and studied for themselves.

Sometimes it's a hoot. Sometimes it's just plain nasty.

But it's at least a result of study.

Better than pure emotionalism.

Robert G

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Re: The Roman Catholic Church Will Suppress Religious Freedom
« Reply #201 on: Fri Dec 21, 2007 - 06:38:51 »
I'd love to witness an argument between two who both believe "God told them"...

Wouldn't that be a hoot?

Robert G

Just about like witnessing an argument between two people who both claim to have read the bible and studied for themselves.

Sometimes it's a hoot. Sometimes it's just plain nasty.

But it's at least a result of study.

Better than pure emotionalism.

Robert G
I agree with you in theory. However, in reality, most people who feel that God told them a little secret tend not to bind their new knowledge on others, but rather simply to share it, while people who feel they have studied a thing through are willing to burn others at the stake who have come to different conclusions.

 

     
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