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Offline Paulus

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The Sacrament of Confirmation
« on: Wed Jun 08, 2011 - 14:39:30 »
About 1985 our bishop , Patrick Kelly of Salford , now the Archbishop of Liverpool , decided that the sacraments of initiation needed to be received in their traditional order , i.e. Baptism , Confirmation , Holy Communion .
People in the Salford diocese were encouraged to submit their thoughts on the matter and how it could be best implemented .

Approved by the officials in Rome , the bishop made the following decision .
Baptism would continue as normal .
Catechists in the parishes would help to prepare the children for Confirmation and Holy Communion .
At about the age of seven on the feast of Pentecost the children throughout the diocese would be confirmed by their parish priests .
On Easter Day of the following year these children would receive Holy Communion for the first time .

During the consultation process I gave much thought to Confirmation .
In the early centuries of the Church a child was baptised , confirmed , and given Holy Communion at the same time . This is still the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churhes i.e. those in communion with the Bishop of Rome .
It was only because of the growing numbers of Catholics , which was not matched by a corresponding growth in the number of bishops , that Baptism and Confirmation grew apart with Holy Communion often given in the years between .

I studied the Rite of Baptism and some of the prayers of the Eucharist , and could not find anything in Confirmation that had not already been given in Baptism and Holy Communion . My conclusion led me to question Confirmation , when what it was supposed to do had already been done in Baptism and the Eucharist .

Confirmation is called Chrismation in the Eastern Catholic Churches , and indeed in Italy . Yet at Baptism one is annointed with the oil of chrism .

The concept that has developed that Confirmation is a kind of coming-of-age sacrament is false . The ancient practice of the Church and the present practice of the Eastern Churches rule such a notion out . "Although Confirmation is sometimes called the sacrament of Christian maturity , we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth , nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free , unmerited election and does not need ratification to become effective . St Thomas reminds us of this  : " Age of body does not determine age of soul . " " ( Catechism of the Catholic Church ) .

Any notion that Confirmation is a sacrament of maturity has to rejected .

This may appear strange to you , but I can't help thinking that when one is baptised , without anyone being aware of it , one is also confirmed .

For me at least the rite of baptism , especially the anointing with chrism , points in that direction .  ???

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The Sacrament of Confirmation
« on: Wed Jun 08, 2011 - 14:39:30 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 00:21:39 »
Confirmation, if you believe it is Biblical, should be done when the person is old enough to be able to choose whether they want to follow the faith or not.How many catholics have been baptised and even confirmed just because it is the 'thing to do' and then have nothing more to do with the church?.I know several myself and I suspect there are millions world wide.
I was bought up in the Anglian church, was baptised as a baby, confirmed when I was 11, and yet didnt become a believer till I was 15 at a Baptist church and was then baptised by full immersion (as Jesus taught us to do). Neither of the first two meant anything to me and I was far too young to know what was happening anyway.
MY two older children were also baptised and confirmed into the Anglican church (when I knew no better) but thank God they were then baptised by full immersion when they themselves decided to follow Jesus in their 20's.Those 2 occasions were so meaningful and amazing days for them and for me, as they were able to stand up and give their testimonies of their own faith in Jesus.

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #1 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 00:21:39 »

Offline pointmade

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #2 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 05:48:11 »
chosenone: "I was bought up in the Anglian church, was baptised as a baby, confirmed when I was 11, and yet didn't become a believer till I was 15 at a Baptist church and was then baptised by full immersion (as Jesus taught us to do). Neither of the first two meant anything to me and I was far too young to know what was happening anyway.
MY two older children were also baptised and confirmed into the Anglican church (when I knew no better)"

I appreciate your honesty...I too could say similar words...
Fact: Christianity is taught not caught...Jesus said, "go teach and make disciples."
The action verb is "make."

Interesting that Jesus never forced anyone to follow him.
He would often say, "follow me."
Jesus is interested in men and women following Him by their volition, out of love,
not being subdued by the choice of another.

Once you know Him, to me, it is impossible to not follow.
He said that we were to know him by the words of His apostles (John 17:20).
Is it any wonder the early church "continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine"?  (Acts 2:42)
We would expect this from reading John 17:6-19.

Baptism: It takes professional help to miss Paul's teaching in Romans 6:1-18.
It would be impossible for an infant to understand Paul's teaching here.
Could an infant understand Peter's message at Pentecost?
How could a baby respond to Peter's words of "repent and be baptized etc." (Acts 2:38).

Note that those "three thousand souls" that did respond to Peter's words were FIRST
"pierced in their heart" (Acts 2:37). Deep sorrow had filled their hearts.
They understood the meaning of Peter's words.
I know men who have come out of seminaries who still do not know the meaning of his words!

Offline Selene

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 07:37:04 »
About 1985 our bishop , Patrick Kelly of Salford , now the Archbishop of Liverpool , decided that the sacraments of initiation needed to be received in their traditional order , i.e. Baptism , Confirmation , Holy Communion .
People in the Salford diocese were encouraged to submit their thoughts on the matter and how it could be best implemented .

Approved by the officials in Rome , the bishop made the following decision .
Baptism would continue as normal .
Catechists in the parishes would help to prepare the children for Confirmation and Holy Communion .
At about the age of seven on the feast of Pentecost the children throughout the diocese would be confirmed by their parish priests .
On Easter Day of the following year these children would receive Holy Communion for the first time .

During the consultation process I gave much thought to Confirmation .
In the early centuries of the Church a child was baptised , confirmed , and given Holy Communion at the same time . This is still the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churhes i.e. those in communion with the Bishop of Rome .
It was only because of the growing numbers of Catholics , which was not matched by a corresponding growth in the number of bishops , that Baptism and Confirmation grew apart with Holy Communion often given in the years between .

I studied the Rite of Baptism and some of the prayers of the Eucharist , and could not find anything in Confirmation that had not already been given in Baptism and Holy Communion . My conclusion led me to question Confirmation , when what it was supposed to do had already been done in Baptism and the Eucharist .

Confirmation is called Chrismation in the Eastern Catholic Churches , and indeed in Italy . Yet at Baptism one is annointed with the oil of chrism .

The concept that has developed that Confirmation is a kind of coming-of-age sacrament is false . The ancient practice of the Church and the present practice of the Eastern Churches rule such a notion out . "Although Confirmation is sometimes called the sacrament of Christian maturity , we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth , nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free , unmerited election and does not need ratification to become effective . St Thomas reminds us of this  : " Age of body does not determine age of soul . " " ( Catechism of the Catholic Church ) .

Any notion that Confirmation is a sacrament of maturity has to rejected .

This may appear strange to you , but I can't help thinking that when one is baptised , without anyone being aware of it , one is also confirmed .

For me at least the rite of baptism , especially the anointing with chrism , points in that direction .  ???

I think of baptism, communion, and confirmation as sort of steps.   Baptism is the first step in a lifelong journey of commitment and discipleship.  Baptism is the Church's way of celebrating and enacting the embrace of God.  When one is baptized, he/she becomes one with God the Father.  In baptism, when the infant or adult is baptized, we become members of God's family.  We become sons and daughters of God our Father, and we receive the seed of faith.       


The next step is Confession and Holy Communioin.  The Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation (also known as Penance, or Penance and Reconciliation) has three elements: conversion, confession and celebration. In it we find God's unconditional forgiveness; as a result we are called to forgive others.   After confession, we move on to Holy Communion. We believe in the real presence of Jesus, who died for our sins. As we receive Christ's Body and Blood, we also are nourished spiritually and brought closer to God.  After eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ (the Son and Second Person in the Holy Trinity), he/she is now one with Christ through Holy Communion. The seed of faith that was planted in us at our baptism will be nourished as we continue to receive Holy Communion.

Confirmation is a Catholic Sacrament of mature Christian commitment and a deepening of baptismal gifts. It is one of the three Sacraments of Initiation for Catholics. It is most often associated with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which will strengthen us in our faith.  Thus, the seed of faith that was planted in our baptism and is continually being nourished as we receive Holy Communion will mature as we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit to stengthen us in our faith. 

So, the way I see Baptism, Reconciliation, Communion, and Confirmation is like a journey to being a mature Christian and disciple of God as we grow in faith.







« Last Edit: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 07:47:41 by Selene »

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #3 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 07:37:04 »

Offline Paulus

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 14:05:06 »
About 1985 our bishop , Patrick Kelly of Salford , now the Archbishop of Liverpool , decided that the sacraments of initiation needed to be received in their traditional order , i.e. Baptism , Confirmation , Holy Communion .
People in the Salford diocese were encouraged to submit their thoughts on the matter and how it could be best implemented .

Approved by the officials in Rome , the bishop made the following decision .
Baptism would continue as normal .
Catechists in the parishes would help to prepare the children for Confirmation and Holy Communion .
At about the age of seven on the feast of Pentecost the children throughout the diocese would be confirmed by their parish priests .
On Easter Day of the following year these children would receive Holy Communion for the first time .

During the consultation process I gave much thought to Confirmation .
In the early centuries of the Church a child was baptised , confirmed , and given Holy Communion at the same time . This is still the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churhes i.e. those in communion with the Bishop of Rome .
It was only because of the growing numbers of Catholics , which was not matched by a corresponding growth in the number of bishops , that Baptism and Confirmation grew apart with Holy Communion often given in the years between .

I studied the Rite of Baptism and some of the prayers of the Eucharist , and could not find anything in Confirmation that had not already been given in Baptism and Holy Communion . My conclusion led me to question Confirmation , when what it was supposed to do had already been done in Baptism and the Eucharist .

Confirmation is called Chrismation in the Eastern Catholic Churches , and indeed in Italy . Yet at Baptism one is annointed with the oil of chrism .

The concept that has developed that Confirmation is a kind of coming-of-age sacrament is false . The ancient practice of the Church and the present practice of the Eastern Churches rule such a notion out . "Although Confirmation is sometimes called the sacrament of Christian maturity , we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth , nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free , unmerited election and does not need ratification to become effective . St Thomas reminds us of this  : " Age of body does not determine age of soul . " " ( Catechism of the Catholic Church ) .

Any notion that Confirmation is a sacrament of maturity has to rejected .

This may appear strange to you , but I can't help thinking that when one is baptised , without anyone being aware of it , one is also confirmed .

For me at least the rite of baptism , especially the anointing with chrism , points in that direction .  ???

I think of baptism, communion, and confirmation as sort of steps.   Baptism is the first step in a lifelong journey of commitment and discipleship.  Baptism is the Church's way of celebrating and enacting the embrace of God.  When one is baptized, he/she becomes one with God the Father.  In baptism, when the infant or adult is baptized, we become members of God's family.  We become sons and daughters of God our Father, and we receive the seed of faith.       


The next step is Confession and Holy Communioin.  The Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation (also known as Penance, or Penance and Reconciliation) has three elements: conversion, confession and celebration. In it we find God's unconditional forgiveness; as a result we are called to forgive others.   After confession, we move on to Holy Communion. We believe in the real presence of Jesus, who died for our sins. As we receive Christ's Body and Blood, we also are nourished spiritually and brought closer to God.  After eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ (the Son and Second Person in the Holy Trinity), he/she is now one with Christ through Holy Communion. The seed of faith that was planted in us at our baptism will be nourished as we continue to receive Holy Communion.

Confirmation is a Catholic Sacrament of mature Christian commitment and a deepening of baptismal gifts. It is one of the three Sacraments of Initiation for Catholics. It is most often associated with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which will strengthen us in our faith.  Thus, the seed of faith that was planted in our baptism and is continually being nourished as we receive Holy Communion will mature as we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit to stengthen us in our faith. 

So, the way I see Baptism, Reconciliation, Communion, and Confirmation is like a journey to being a mature Christian and disciple of God as we grow in faith .

I agree with you , Selene . I never say that I WAS baptised . I say I AM baptised . And as you say , we are in a process where we are always growing in faith . I know many Catholics who were baptised because their parents wanted to get it done . Sadly there was no encouragement for the growing in faith . Fortunately I had committed parents , and they had a good relationship with the Lord , and helped me on my faith journey .

Where you will probably not agree with me is in my desire to see Confirmation return to its ancient position , that is Baptism and Confirmation together as still occurs in the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches . God bless .

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #4 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 14:05:06 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #5 on: Thu Jun 09, 2011 - 16:45:30 »
About 1985 our bishop , Patrick Kelly of Salford , now the Archbishop of Liverpool , decided that the sacraments of initiation needed to be received in their traditional order , i.e. Baptism , Confirmation , Holy Communion .
People in the Salford diocese were encouraged to submit their thoughts on the matter and how it could be best implemented .

Approved by the officials in Rome , the bishop made the following decision .
Baptism would continue as normal .
Catechists in the parishes would help to prepare the children for Confirmation and Holy Communion .
At about the age of seven on the feast of Pentecost the children throughout the diocese would be confirmed by their parish priests .
On Easter Day of the following year these children would receive Holy Communion for the first time .

During the consultation process I gave much thought to Confirmation .
In the early centuries of the Church a child was baptised , confirmed , and given Holy Communion at the same time . This is still the practice of the Eastern Catholic Churhes i.e. those in communion with the Bishop of Rome .
It was only because of the growing numbers of Catholics , which was not matched by a corresponding growth in the number of bishops , that Baptism and Confirmation grew apart with Holy Communion often given in the years between .

I studied the Rite of Baptism and some of the prayers of the Eucharist , and could not find anything in Confirmation that had not already been given in Baptism and Holy Communion . My conclusion led me to question Confirmation , when what it was supposed to do had already been done in Baptism and the Eucharist .

Confirmation is called Chrismation in the Eastern Catholic Churches , and indeed in Italy . Yet at Baptism one is annointed with the oil of chrism .

The concept that has developed that Confirmation is a kind of coming-of-age sacrament is false . The ancient practice of the Church and the present practice of the Eastern Churches rule such a notion out . "Although Confirmation is sometimes called the sacrament of Christian maturity , we must not confuse adult faith with the adult age of natural growth , nor forget that the baptismal grace is a grace of free , unmerited election and does not need ratification to become effective . St Thomas reminds us of this  : " Age of body does not determine age of soul . " " ( Catechism of the Catholic Church ) .

Any notion that Confirmation is a sacrament of maturity has to rejected .

This may appear strange to you , but I can't help thinking that when one is baptised , without anyone being aware of it , one is also confirmed .

For me at least the rite of baptism , especially the anointing with chrism , points in that direction .  ???
My father, bless his soul, was confirmed just this last year, at the age of 61.  He was not required to be re-baptized, for the simple reason that he had already had a valid baptism in a protestant church many years ago.

His Confirmation acted essentially, as the Catholic church formally accepting him as a member.  I thought that was the point of Confirmation.

But then, I'm not a Catholic, so maybe I have it all wrong.

Jarrod

Offline Paulus

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #6 on: Fri Jun 10, 2011 - 13:12:37 »

My father, bless his soul, was confirmed just this last year, at the age of 61.  He was not required to be re-baptized, for the simple reason that he had already had a valid baptism in a protestant church many years ago.

His Confirmation acted essentially, as the Catholic church formally accepting him as a member.  I thought that was the point of Confirmation.

But then, I'm not a Catholic, so maybe I have it all wrong.

Jarrod

It's great that your father has entered into full communion with the Church founded by Jesus . God bless him .

He will have entered into full communion with the Church through the three sacraments of initiation , Baptism , Confirmation , and the Eucharist .  ::applause::

Offline pointmade

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #7 on: Sat Jun 11, 2011 - 08:38:14 »
Jarrod...what is a "valid baptism"?

Both, Protestant and Catholic teach "irresistible grace," or "infused grace."
In all tenets of Protestantism you find "Sola fide," "Sola scriptura," "The Prieshood of all believers."

Your father was "confirmed."
Is this not a rite which gives another "dose" of grace after baptism?
In the later Middle Ages of the Church it came at early adolescence, and it serves to "confirm" the faith
implanted at baptism and give the emerging adult the increased inner moral power to live up to Christian standards.

Luther reduced the sacraments from seven to two (Baptism and the Lord's Supper).
He denied the theory of ex opera operato.

Luther retained infant baptism, holding that faith is operative in that they who bring the child to baptism
have faith on behalf of the child.
Faith of parents produces baptismal regeneration.
This is basically the Roman view.

I am using Lutheranism as an example of Protestantism (they do vary).
In Lutheranism, the regeneration of an infant takes place at baptism.
Baptism, therefore, is required for salvation for the infant, but not for adults.
Luther held that immersion was the original and preferable form, but that the form, ultimately, does not matter.
This was to be the view of Calvin as touching the mode of baptism.

If baptism is not "for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit" of what use is it? (Acts 2:38)
When you nail a Protestand down---"baptism is not necessary for salvation."
Elementary: if one is predestined, or among the "elect" no amount of water would be required!

Of course baptism is the vehicle of God's prevenient grace in the Catholic Church.
At baptism a child is infused with the grace of God and thereby has the ability to cooperate with God in salvation.
After baptism, further grace and special grace is gained when one performs acts of righteousness beyond what is required for salvation (supererogation).
Which leads to "Penance" when one falls below the standard of required righteousness,
especially in the case of public sins, there must be public confession, absolution by the clergy, and the imposition of satisfaction: acts or gifts which guarantee repentance.

Since the Catholic church has accepted your father as a "member," his salvation is now available only in the sacraments, and the sacraments available only through the clergy (as representatives of the bishops; i.e., only in the visible church).


From a point of reason: Did Peter announce the words of pardon (remittance of sins) at Pentecost or not?
Would his answer be supported by Jesus' words in John 20:23 and Matthew 10:18-20?
Were the sins of the "three thousand" who heard, and obeyed his words "added to the kingdom" or not? (Acts 2:47).
Were those "added" adults or not?
Did they "continue in the apostles doctrine or not? (Acts 2:42).
If not, of what use is the New Testament?

Tell me how an infant would qualify in the exegesis of Mark 16:16, Acts 8:35-38?
The child would have no need to be baptized if Catholicism and Protestantism would not teach that man inherited Adam's sin.

Due to Augustine's theology of original sin, that man bears Adam's absolutely corrupted nature, inherits the guilt of Adam's sin for which he must be forgiven.
This doctine was adopted in 529 at Orange (France) by the Catholic Church.

Something very interesting: The Roman Catholic Church accepted modified Augustinianism, but through the Middle Ages moved steadily closer to the Semi-Pelagian view, although it claimed to be following Augustine.

The Protestant Reformers saw it their task to return "the Church" to pure Augustinianism, going back beyond the Synod of Orange.
This is exactly what Calvin based his Reformed theology on. ("Institutes of the Christian Religion").
Calvinism is a "Determinism."
So, on and on it goes...When the Bible becomes a "dead letter," man will fall into Realism, Nominalism, or Conceptionalism.

 

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 03:59:15 »
Jarrod...what is a "valid baptism"?
A baptism performed by an ordained minister according to the traditional formula "in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost."  At least, I think that's all the Catholic church requires.  I'm not actually Catholic, so there might be more requirements.

Quote
Both, Protestant and Catholic teach "irresistible grace," or "infused grace."
In all tenets of Protestantism you find "Sola fide," "Sola scriptura," "The Prieshood of all believers."

Your father was "confirmed."
Is this not a rite which gives another "dose" of grace after baptism?
As far as I know, confirmation is just a rite of acceptance into the catholic church (uh... or orthodox, or lutheran, etc).  But then, I could be totally wrong.  I don't speak for the RCC.  You could ask one of the Catholics here - they could probably explain the RCC's position, whatever it is.

Quote
In the later Middle Ages of the Church it came at early adolescence, and it serves to "confirm" the faith
implanted at baptism and give the emerging adult the increased inner moral power to live up to Christian standards.

Luther reduced the sacraments from seven to two (Baptism and the Lord's Supper).  He denied the theory of ex opera operato.

Luther retained infant baptism, holding that faith is operative in that they who bring the child to baptism have faith on behalf of the child.
Faith of parents produces baptismal regeneration. This is basically the Roman view.
I'm a Protestant, but I'm not really a fan of Luther's theology, to be perfectly honest.  I suppose that makes me something of an abnormality.  I admire his intention to reform the church, and I don't object to his separation from it, when it refused to be reformed.  Which of course brings us back to the whole "I'm a Protestant" thing.

Quote
I am using Lutheranism as an example of Protestantism (they do vary).  In Lutheranism, the regeneration of an infant takes place at baptism.  Baptism, therefore, is required for salvation for the infant, but not for adults.  Luther held that immersion was the original and preferable form, but that the form, ultimately, does not matter.  This was to be the view of Calvin as touching the mode of baptism.
Probably off topic, but Lutheranism is a lousy example of Protestantism.  It's closer to Catholicism than it is to any other branch of Protestant teaching, except maybe the Anglicans, who have one foot in the RCC, anyway.

Quote
If baptism is not "for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit" of what use is it? (Acts 2:38)
When you nail a Protestand down---"baptism is not necessary for salvation."
Elementary: if one is predestined, or among the "elect" no amount of water would be required!
That generalization is pretty much false.  While there are many Protestant groups that this would be true for, there are many more for which water baptism is an absolute necessity.  Immersion is to the Baptists, for example, what Eucharist is to the RCC.

Quote
Of course baptism is the vehicle of God's prevenient grace in the Catholic Church.
At baptism a child is infused with the grace of God and thereby has the ability to cooperate with God in salvation.
After baptism, further grace and special grace is gained when one performs acts of righteousness beyond what is required for salvation (supererogation).
Which leads to "Penance" when one falls below the standard of required righteousness,
especially in the case of public sins, there must be public confession, absolution by the clergy, and the imposition of satisfaction: acts or gifts which guarantee repentance.
My theology requires that grace not be considered as a "thing."  It cannot be "infused," within my paradigm.  We may not have enough in common to build a conversation on.

Quote
Since the Catholic church has accepted your father as a "member," his salvation is now available only in the sacraments, and the sacraments available only through the clergy (as representatives of the bishops; i.e., only in the visible church).
Eh... salvation is a state of being.  Participation in the sacraments is conducive to remaining in that state, once one has entered it (baptism assumed).  But in the end, faith + hearing is enough.  We may just define words differently, though.

Quote
From a point of reason: Did Peter announce the words of pardon (remittance of sins) at Pentecost or not?
Would his answer be supported by Jesus' words in John 20:23 and Matthew 10:18-20?
Were the sins of the "three thousand" who heard, and obeyed his words "added to the kingdom" or not? (Acts 2:47).
Were those "added" adults or not?
Did they "continue in the apostles doctrine or not? (Acts 2:42).
If not, of what use is the New Testament?
I'm not really sure what the "words of pardon" are, so I can't answer most of your questions.  They were added, and were adults, and did continue in the apostles doctrine.

Quote
Tell me how an infant would qualify in the exegesis of Mark 16:16, Acts 8:35-38?
The child would have no need to be baptized if Catholicism and Protestantism would not teach that man inherited Adam's sin.

Due to Augustine's theology of original sin, that man bears Adam's absolutely corrupted nature, inherits the guilt of Adam's sin for which he must be forgiven.
This doctine was adopted in 529 at Orange (France) by the Catholic Church.

Something very interesting: The Roman Catholic Church accepted modified Augustinianism, but through the Middle Ages moved steadily closer to the Semi-Pelagian view, although it claimed to be following Augustine.
Now this I'm more familiar with.  I do not hold to the doctrine of "Original Sin," at least not in full.  I put a difference between inheriting the nature of a man, and inheriting a man's sins.  I see the problem as environmental - the kosmos is corrupted by the misdeeds of men.  In our misordered world, we inherit problems for which is there is no perfect course of action.  Or, to put it more plainly... sometimes there is no right answer.  Sometimes, we choose between bad and worse.  Since this is the case, all men fall short of perfection.

Quote
The Protestant Reformers saw it their task to return "the Church" to pure Augustinianism, going back beyond the Synod of Orange.
This is exactly what Calvin based his Reformed theology on. ("Institutes of the Christian Religion").
Calvinism is a "Determinism."
So, on and on it goes...When the Bible becomes a "dead letter," man will fall into Realism, Nominalism, or Conceptionalism.
I'm not a five-point Calvinist either.  Although neither was Calvin, so maybe that's not so bad.  ::noworries::  As nearly as I can tell, those groups who hold to the TULIP principles are in massive decline.

Jarrod

Offline pointmade

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 08:28:26 »
Thanks for your come back Jarrod!

You wrote:
Now this I'm more familiar with.  I do not hold to the doctrine of "Original Sin," at least not in full.  I put a difference between inheriting the nature of a man, and inheriting a man's sins.  I see the problem as environmental - the kosmos is corrupted by the misdeeds of men.  In our misordered world, we inherit problems for which is there is no perfect course of action.  Or, to put it more plainly... sometimes there is no right answer.  Sometimes, we choose between bad and worse.  Since this is the case, all men fall short of perfection.

Not holding to "original sin" takes you out of the rhelm of  Catholocism and Protestianism.
This is a basic tenet of both.
Paul has said, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory (character) of God."

Question: a term used by many: "are you saved brother?"
I ask: Where do you believe "salvation takes place?


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #10 on: Sun Jun 12, 2011 - 20:17:33 »
Thanks for your come back Jarrod!

You wrote:
Now this I'm more familiar with.  I do not hold to the doctrine of "Original Sin," at least not in full.  I put a difference between inheriting the nature of a man, and inheriting a man's sins.  I see the problem as environmental - the kosmos is corrupted by the misdeeds of men.  In our misordered world, we inherit problems for which is there is no perfect course of action.  Or, to put it more plainly... sometimes there is no right answer.  Sometimes, we choose between bad and worse.  Since this is the case, all men fall short of perfection.

Not holding to "original sin" takes you out of the rhelm of  Catholocism and Protestianism.
This is a basic tenet of both.
Paul has said, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory (character) of God."

None of the Orthodox believe in original sin, yet they are counted among the faithful.

At any rate, I'm with Paul saying everyone has sinned.  I'm just not with Augustine's formulation of Original Sin, wherin it is said that we inherit actual sins and are guilty for them.

I'm wondering if you quite understood what I said about the problem being environmental.  If we pass things down to our children by nature and nurture, then there are two problems.  One is our animal urges, which we may call a natural inheritance.  They are not necessarily sinful, but they provide opportunity to err, through misuse and lack of moderation.  The other is a function of nurture - we inherit the problems of our fathers through circumstance and mistraining.

Question: a term used by many: "are you saved brother?"
I ask: Where do you believe "salvation takes place?
I'm a little unclear on whether you're asking both questions, or just question #2.  I'll answer both to the best of my ability.

I have been accepted into a protestant church through the sacrament of water baptism, performed according to a formula that would also be considered proper by the RCC.  I'm not really sure what your background is?

I have also been joined into The Body of Christ, by Christ, through the bestowal of His Spirit, as also evidenced miraculously by the sign of holy laughter, and the bestowal of certain gifts - joy in trials, healing, and the "word of knowledge" (to use a modern term).

I would put the latter above the former, in terms of importance, though I believe the truth is that the two events are supposed to happen at the same time.  That's probably as close as I can come to answering the second question.

I believe that salvation is a state of being, not an event.  There is an event at which a person enters into that state for the first time, which is commonly known as "getting saved," but salvation is more than that.  Once we are entered into that state of safety, we must maintain it through obedience.  We must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" and "he who perseveres to the end shall be saved."

I'm not sure I'm doing a particularly good job of working it out, obeying, or persevering, but I am nonetheless confident that I shall be saved, because God has guaranteed it to me by giving to me an earnest payment on the eventual inheritance.

Jarrod

Offline Paulus

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #11 on: Mon Jun 13, 2011 - 12:49:49 »

As far as I know, confirmation is just a rite of acceptance into the catholic church

One is initiated into the Catholic Church through the Sacraments of Baptism , Confirmation , and the Eucharist .

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #12 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 07:45:48 »

As far as I know, confirmation is just a rite of acceptance into the catholic church

One is initiated into the Catholic Church through the Sacraments of Baptism , Confirmation , and the Eucharist .

I have a problem with the word initiated into. it sounds like you are joining some club.

When i came to Christ he took me in and now i am family.    ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Paulus

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #13 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 13:20:11 »
I have a problem with the word initiated into. it sounds like you are joining some club.

You appear to have many problems because of your lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus .

Offline mclees8

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #14 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 13:46:30 »
I have a problem with the word initiated into. it sounds like you are joining some club.

You appear to have many problems because of your lack of knowledge of the Catholic Church founded by Jesus .

What knowledge is that? What does that have to with an initiation?

Jesus didn't found a corrupt and fraudulent papacy that is in bed with Babylon

Offline Paulus

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Re: The Sacrament of Confirmation
« Reply #15 on: Tue Jun 14, 2011 - 15:11:13 »
Quote from: mclees8 link=topic=54158.msg907709#msg907709 date=1308077190

Jesus didn't found a corrupt and fraudulent papacy that is in bed with Babylon
[/quote

I know he didn't . You are learning at last .