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Amo

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The worship of the Christian martyrs
« on: January 03, 2009, 09:06:08 PM »
The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

Chapter XXVIII

The worship of the Christian martyrs

The ruin of the Pagan religion is described by the sophists as a dreadful and amazing prodigy, which covered the earth with darkness and restored the ancient dominion of chaos and of night. They relate in solemn and pathetic strains; that the temples were converted into sepulchres, and that the holy places, which had been adorned by the statues of the gods, were basely polluted by the relics of Christian martyrs. "The monks" (a race of filthy animals, to whom; Eunapius is tempted to refuse the name of men) "are the authors of the new worship, which, in. the place of those deities who are conceived by the understanding, has substituted the meanest and most contemptible slaves. The heads, salted and pickled, of those infamous malefactors, who for the multitude of their crimes have suffered a just and ignominious death; their bodies, still marked by the impression of the lash and the scars of those tortures which were inflicted by the sentence of the magistrate; such" (continues Eunapius) "are the gods which the earth produces in our days; such are the martyrs, the supreme arbitrators of our prayers and petitions to the Deity, whose tombs are now consecrated as the objects of the veneration of the people." Without approving the malice, it is natural enough to share the surprise of the sophist, the spectator of a revolution which raised those obscure victims of the laws of Rome to the rank of celestial and invisible protectors of the Roman empire. The grateful respect of the Christians for the martyrs of the faith was exalted, by time and victory, into religious adoration; and the most illustrious of the saints and prophets were deservedly associated to the honours of the martyrs. One hundred and fifty years after the glorious deaths of St. Peter and St. Paul, the Vatican and the Ostian road were distinguished by the tombs, or rather by the trophies, of those; spiritual heroes. In the age which followed the conversion of Constantine, the emperors, the consuls, and the generals of armies devoutly visited the sepulchres of a tent-maker and a fisherman; and their venerable bones were deposited under the altars of Christ, on which the bishops of the royal city continually offered the unbloody sacrifice.  The new capital of the Eastern world, unable to produce any ancient and domestic trophies, was enriched by the spoils of dependent provinces. The bodies of St. Andrew, St. Luke, and St. Timothy had reposed near three hundred years in the obscure graves from whence they were transported, in solemn pomp, to the church of the apostles, which the magnificence of Constantine had founded on the banks of the Thracian Bosphorus. About fifty years afterwards the same banks were honoured by the presence of Samuel, the judge and prophet of the people of Israel. His ashes, deposited in a golden vase, and covered with a silken veil, were delivered by the bishops into each other's hands. The relics of Samuel were received by the people with the same joy and reverence which they would have shown to the living prophet; the highways, from Palestine to the gates of Constantinople, were filled with an uninterrupted procession; and the emperor Arcadius himself, at the head of the most illustrious members of the clergy and senate, advanced to meet his extraordinary guest, who had always deserved and claimed the homage of kings. The example of Rome and Constantinople confirmed the faith and discipline of the catholic world. The honours of the saints and martyrs, after a feeble and ineffectual murmur of profane reason, were universally established; and in the age of Ambrose and Jerom something was still deemed wanting to the sanctity of a Christian church, till it had been consecrated by some portion of holy relics, which fixed and inflamed the devotion of the faithful.

General Reflections

In the long period of twelve hundred years, which elapsed between the reign of Constantine and the reformation of Luther, the worship of saints and relics corrupted the pure and perfect simplicity of the Christian model; and some symptoms of degeneracy may be observed even in the first generations which adopted and cherished this pernicious innovation.

1. Fabulous martyrs and relics.

I. The satisfactory experience that the relics of saints were more valuable than gold or precious stones  stimulated the clergy to multiply the treasures of the church. Without much regard for truth or probability, they invented names for skeletons, and actions for names. The fame of the apostles, and of the holy men who had imitated their virtues, was darkened by religious fiction. To the invincible band of genuine and primitive martyrs they added myriads of imaginary heroes, who had never existed, except in the fancy of crafty or credulous legendaries; and there is reason to suspect that Tours might not be the only diocese in which the bones of a malefactor were adored instead of those of a saint. A superstitious practice, which tended to increase the temptations of fraud and credulity, insensibly extinguished the light of history and of reason in the Christian world.

2. Miracles.

II. But the progress of superstition would have been much less rapid and victorious if the faith of the people had not been assisted by the seasonable aid of visions and miracles to ascertain the authenticity and virtue of the most suspicious relics. In the reign of the younger Theodosius, Lucian, a presbyter of Jerusalem, and the ecclesiastical minister of the village of Caphargamala, about twenty miles from the city, related a very singular dream, which, to remove his doubts, had been repeated on three successive Saturdays. A venerable figure stood before him, in the silence of the night, with a long beard, a white robe, and a gold rod; announced himself by the name of Gamaliel; and revealed to the astonished presbyter, that his own corpse, with the bodies of his son Abibas, his friend Nicodemus, and the illustrious Stephen, the first martyr of the Christian faith, were secretly buried in the adjacent field. He added, with some impatience, that it was time to release himself and his companions from their obscure prison; that their appearance would be salutary to a distressed world; and that they had made choice of Lucian to inform the bishop of Jerusalem of their situation and their wishes. The doubts and difficulties which still retarded this important discovery were successively removed by new visions; and the ground was opened by the bishop in the presence of an innumerable multitude; The coffins of Gamaliel, of his son, and of his friend, were found in regular order; but when the fourth coffin, which contained the remains of Stephen, was shown to the light, the earth trembled, and an odour such as that of Paradise was smelt, which instantly cured the various diseases of seventy-three of the assistants. The companions of Stephen were left in their peaceful residence of Caphargamala; but the relics of the first martyr were transported, in solemn procession, to a church constructed in their honour on Mount Sion; and the minute particles of those relics, a drop of blood,  or the scrapings of a bone, were acknowledged, in almost every province of the Roman world, to possess a divine and miraculous virtue. The grave and learned Augustin, whose understanding scarcely admits the excuse of credulity, has attested the innumerable prodigies which were performed in Africa by the relics of St. Stephen; and this marvellous narrative is inserted in the elaborate work of the City of God, which the bishop of Hippo designed as a solid and immortal proof of the truth of Christianity. Augustin solemnly declares that he has selected those miracles only which were publicly certified by the persons who were either the objects, or the spectators, of the power of the martyr. Many prodigies were omitted or forgotten; and Hippo had been less favourably treated than the other cities of the province. And yet the bishop enumerates above seventy miracles, of which three were resurrections from the dead, in the space of two years, and within the limits of his own diocese.If we enlarge our view to all the diocese, and all the saints, of the Christian world, it will not be easy to calculate the fables, and the errors, which issued from this inexhaustible source. But we may surely be allowed to observe that a miracle, in that age of superstition and credulity, lost its name and its merit, since it could scarcely be considered as a deviation from the ordinary and established: laws of nature.

3. Revival of polytheism

III. The innumerable miracles, of which the tombs of the martyrs were the perpetual theatre, revealed to the pious believer the actual state and constitution of the invisible world; and his religious speculations appeared to be founded on the firm basis of fact and experience. What ever might be the condition of vulgar souls in the long interval between the dissolution and the resurrection of their bodies, it was evident. that the superior spirits of the saints and martyrs did not consume that portion of their existence in silent and inglorious sleep.  It was evident (without presuming to determine the place of their habitation, or the nature of their felicity) that they enjoyed the lively and active consciousness of their happiness, their virtue, and their powers; and that they had already secured the possession of their eternal reward. The enlargement of their intellectual faculties surpassed the measure of the human imagination; since it was proved by experience that they were capable of hearing and understanding the various petitions of their numerous votaries, who, in the same moment of time, but in the most distant parts of the world, invoked the name and assistance of Stephen or of Martin.  The confidence of their petitioners was founded on the persuasion that the saints, who reigned with Christ, cast an eye of pity upon earth; that they were warmly interested in the prosperity of the Catholic church; and that the individuals who imitated the example of their faith and piety were the peculiar and favourite objects of their most tender regard. Sometimes, indeed, their friendship might be influenced by considerations of a less exalted kind: they viewed with partial affection the places which had been consecrated by their birth, their residence, their death, their burial, or the possession of their relics. The meaner passions of pride, avarice, and revenge, may be deemed unworthy of a celestial breast; yet the saints themselves condescended to testify their grateful approbation of the liberality of their votaries; and the sharpest bolts of punishment were hurled against those impious wretches who violated their magnificent shrines, or disbelieved their supernatural power. Atrocious, indeed, must have been the guilt, and strange would have been the scepticism, of those men, if they had obstinately resisted the proofs of a divine agency, which the elements, the whole range of the animal creation, and even the subtle and invisible operations of the human mind, were compelled to obey. The immediate, and almost instantaneous, effects, that were supposed to follow the prayer, or the offence, satisfied the Christians of the ample measure of favour and authority which the saints enjoyed in the presence of the Supreme God; and it seemed almost superfluous to inquire whether they were continually obliged to intercede before the throne of grace, or whether they might not be permitted to exercise, according to the dictates of their benevolence and justice, the delegated powers of their subordinate ministry. The imagination, which had been raised by a painful effort to the contemplation and worship of the Universal Cause, eagerly embraced such inferior objects of adoration as were more proportioned to its gross conceptions and imperfect faculties. The sublime and simple theology of the primitive Christians was gradually corrupted: and the MONARCHY of heaven, already clouded by metaphysical subtleties, was degraded by the introduction of a popular mythology which tended to restore the reign of polytheism.

4. Introduction of Pagan ceremonies.

IV. As the objects of religion were gradually reduced to the standard of the imagination, the rites and ceremonies were introduced that seemed most powerfully to affect the senses of the vulgar. If, in the beginning of the fifth century, Tertullian, or Lactantius,  had been suddenly raised from the dead, to assist at the festival of some popular saint or martyr, they would have gazed with astonishment and indignation on the profane spectacle which had succeeded to the pure and spiritual worship of a Christian congregation. As soon as the doors of the church were thrown open, they must have been offended by the smoke of incense, the perfume of flowers, and the glare of lamps and tapers, which diffused, at noon-day, a gaudy, superfluous, and, in their opinion, a sacrilegious light. If they approached the balustrade of the altar, they made their way through the prostrate crowd, consisting, for the most part, of strangers and pilgrims, who resorted to the city on the vigil of the feast; and who already felt the strong intoxication of fanaticism, and, perhaps, of wine. Their devout kisses were imprinted on the walls and pavement of the sacred edifice; and their fervent prayers were directed, whatever might be the language of their church, to the bones, the blood, or the ashes of the saint, which were usually concealed, by a linen or silken veil, from the eyes of the vulgar. The Christians frequented the tombs of the martyrs, in the hope of obtaining, from their powerful intercession, every sort of spiritual, but more especially of temporal, blessings. They implored the preservation of their health, or the cure of their infirmities; the fruitfulness of their barren wives, or the safety and happiness of their children. Whenever they undertook any distant or dangerous journey, they requested that the holy martyrs would be their guides and protectors on the road; and if they returned without having experienced any misfortune, they again hastened to the tombs of the martyrs, to celebrate, with grateful thanksgivings, their obligations to the memory and relics of those heavenly patrons. The walls were hung round with symbols of the favours which they had received; eyes, and hands, and feet, of gold and silver: and edifying pictures, which could not long escape the abuse of indiscreet or idolatrous devotion, represented the image, the attributes, and the miracles of the tutelar saint. The same uniform original spirit of superstition might suggest, in the most distant ages and countries, the same methods of deceiving the credulity, and of affecting the senses of mankind: but it must ingenuously be confessed that the ministers of the catholic church imitated the profane model which they were impatient to destroy. The most respectable bishops had persuaded themselves that the ignorant rustics would more cheerfully renounce the superstitions of Paganism, if they found some resemblance, some compensation, in the bosom of Christianity. The religion of Constantine achieved, in less than a century, the final conquest of the Roman empire: but the victors themselves were insensibly subdued by the arts of their vanquished rivals.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 11:37:55 AM by jmg3rd »

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The worship of the Christian martyrs
« on: January 03, 2009, 09:06:08 PM »

Offline extranos

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 12:36:46 PM »
Amo,
Very few people are going to bother to read your quoted posts.  Why not just tell us what YOU want to say?
Suppose there were a physician who had such skill that people would not die, or even though they died would afterward live forever. Just think how the world would snow and rain money upon him! Because of the pressing crowd of rich men no one else could get near him. Now, here in Baptism there is brought free to every man's door just such a priceless medicine which swallows up death and saves the lives of all men.

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 12:36:46 PM »

Offline ole Jake

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 08:43:10 AM »
Gibbon is a perfect example of the 18th century English Enlightenemnt deist/agnostic who made his life's work the debunking of historic Christianity. Gibbon was a freemason and understood, and promoted, the implications of masonry's unitarian and universalist philosophy.

In his day, non-rationalist Protestants recognized that Gibbon's work while focused religioulsy on slurring Catholicism would also tarnish 'orthodox' Protestantism. What is most interesting is that over time, as Protestantism naturally degenerated into two camps (rationalist and anit-intellectual), Protestants in huge numbers came to see Gibbon as someone to use to bash the Catholic Church.

Error has endless faces and always allies together against the one truth.

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 08:48:45 AM »
Gibbon is a perfect example of the 18th century English Enlightenemnt deist/agnostic who made his life's work the debunking of historic Christianity. Gibbon was a freemason and understood, and promoted, the implications of masonry's unitarian and universalist philosophy.

In his day, non-rationalist Protestants recognized that Gibbon's work while focused religioulsy on slurring Catholicism would also tarnish 'orthodox' Protestantism. What is most interesting is that over time, as Protestantism naturally degenerated into two camps (rationalist and anit-intellectual), Protestants in huge numbers came to see Gibbon as someone to use to bash the Catholic Church.

Error has endless faces and always allies together against the one truth.

Interesting


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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 08:48:45 AM »

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 09:22:19 AM »
Amo, as has been said Gibbon was not an objective historian at all. He had an axe to grind against Christianity in general, Roman Catholicism in particular.

Pax.
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 09:22:19 AM »



Offline Reformer

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 09:43:38 AM »
Gibbon is a perfect example of the 18th century English Enlightenemnt deist/agnostic who made his life's work the debunking of historic Christianity. Gibbon was a freemason and understood, and promoted, the implications of masonry's unitarian and universalist philosophy.

In his day, non-rationalist Protestants recognized that Gibbon's work while focused religioulsy on slurring Catholicism would also tarnish 'orthodox' Protestantism. What is most interesting is that over time, as Protestantism naturally degenerated into two camps (rationalist and anit-intellectual), Protestants in huge numbers came to see Gibbon as someone to use to bash the Catholic Church.

Error has endless faces and always allies together against the one truth.

     Jake, Gibbon may or may not have been anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant, as per one's interpretation of his writings, but let us not get hung up on the term "anti." All of us are anti in many areas of life. Everyone of us. Just because a man is anti on some issue does not negate the truthfulness of his position.

     Gibbon is viewed as a credible historian by many. This is not to say that he never "missed the mark" in some areas. We all do. But to speak negatively of him and his work just because he pointed out the defects of a religion of which we might promote, is not good logic.

     Also, on anti-ism, it is interesting that the apostles Paul and Peter were anti in a lot of their writings, as well as other Christian authors. So the term need not be given a bad name. And just because you and I might be anti on an issue does not necessarily make us bad.
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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 09:50:03 AM »
Amo, as has been said Gibbon was not an objective historian at all. He had an axe to grind against Christianity in general, Roman Catholicism in particular.

Pax.

    Hi, Lee.  Out of curiosity, are you of the Catholic faith, or is your religious background Cathilic?  Just wondering, my brother.
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Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 09:54:53 AM »
Amo, as has been said Gibbon was not an objective historian at all. He had an axe to grind against Christianity in general, Roman Catholicism in particular.

Pax.


    Hi, Lee.  Out of curiosity, are you of the Catholic faith, or is your religious background Cathilic?  Just wondering, my brother.

No, I'm proud to say I'm a fifth generation Stone-Campbell Protestant. But I recognize, certainly as a medievalist, Gibbon's biases against Christianity. He was not a fair and impartial witness. His work was banned in parts of Europe because of its anti-Christian bias.

Pax.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 10:01:31 AM by Lee Freeman »
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

Offline ole Jake

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 10:18:39 AM »
Gibbon is a perfect example of the 18th century English Enlightenemnt deist/agnostic who made his life's work the debunking of historic Christianity. Gibbon was a freemason and understood, and promoted, the implications of masonry's unitarian and universalist philosophy.

In his day, non-rationalist Protestants recognized that Gibbon's work while focused religioulsy on slurring Catholicism would also tarnish 'orthodox' Protestantism. What is most interesting is that over time, as Protestantism naturally degenerated into two camps (rationalist and anit-intellectual), Protestants in huge numbers came to see Gibbon as someone to use to bash the Catholic Church.

Error has endless faces and always allies together against the one truth.

     Jake, Gibbon may or may not have been anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant, as per one's interpretation of his writings, but let us not get hung up on the term "anti." All of us are anti in many areas of life. Everyone of us. Just because a man is anti on some issue does not negate the truthfulness of his position.

     Gibbon is viewed as a credible historian by many. This is not to say that he never "missed the mark" in some areas. We all do. But to speak negatively of him and his work just because he pointed out the defects of a religion of which we might promote, is not good logic.

     Also, on anti-ism, it is interesting that the apostles Paul and Peter were anti in a lot of their writings, as well as other Christian authors. So the term need not be given a bad name. And just because you and I might be anti on an issue does not necessarily make us bad.

That you would come to the defense of Gibbon is perfectly in keeping with both what you have revealed of yourself and that with which I closed.


Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 11:25:01 AM »
Gibbon on the whole was a very competent hisorian. But when it came to religiuon he let his biases shine through. He had a bias against any kind of organized religion, esp. Roman Catholicism. Pointing out valid and legitimate criticisms is one thing, but slandering a religion out of preconcieved ideas and biases is another thing altogether, something no reputable historian should should allow himself to do.

Pax.
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

Offline Reformer

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 11:35:22 AM »

That you would come to the defense of Gibbon is perfectly in keeping with both what you have revealed of yourself and that with which I closed.

     Jake, let's try not to involve ourselves in personality clashes again. I'm sorry now I was drawn into the personality fight earlier with Mark Weber and his tirades. It is not like me to get embroiled in these kind of things, and I was wrong by allowing myself to be drawn into them.

     I don't mind honorable controversy, I deal with it all of the time, and I have no objections to our being bold and outspoken when presenting our viewpoints.  But when personal slurs take the place of addressing the issue, nothing good will evolve from it.  Feelings are hurt, the spirit is wounded, and the character is assassinated.

Now having said that, what part of my "anti" remarks do you disagree with?
"Wherever God has a child, I have a brother or a sister."

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 11:53:51 AM »
Gibbon on the whole was a very competent hisorian. But when it came to religiuon he let his biases shine through. He had a bias against any kind of organized religion, esp. Roman Catholicism. Pointing out valid and legitimate criticisms is one thing, but slandering a religion out of preconcieved ideas and biases is another thing altogether, something no reputable historian should should allow himself to do.
Pax.

Quote
"but slandering a religion out of preconcieved ideas and biases is another thing altogether..."

     And this is where the bone rubs, Lee.  If—I say if—the historian is writing about the facts of history, and those facts include the defects and evils of a particular religion, those of that religion will likely accuse him of preconceived ideas and biases. The charge may be valid, but on the other hand it may be invalid. So the bottom line, in most cases, is that it depends on the reader and his religious affiliation.

     Gibbon and many other historians may have been of the atheistic mindset.  Yet that does not negate the facts they present—assuming they are facts.
"Wherever God has a child, I have a brother or a sister."

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 12:50:21 PM »
I am still trying to figure out what the OP has to do with actual Catholicism. From what I can see, very little. But regarding two items I noticed within the tome:

....The satisfactory experience that the relics of saints were more valuable than gold or precious stones  stimulated the clergy to multiply the treasures of the church. Without much regard for truth or probability, they invented names for skeletons, and actions for names....

Relics and their use are quite Biblical. The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: "So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!

Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

When Jesus healed the blind man in John 9:1-7, did the Lord use magic mud and spittle? Was it actually a magic potion he mixed in the clay, or was it simply that Jesus saw fit to use matter in association with the conferral of his grace? The Lord is no dualist. He made matter, he loves matter, and he had no qualms about becoming matter himself to accomplish our redemption.

One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself. Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body (Mark 15:43, John 19:38). He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place (Matt. 27:60). Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes (John 19:39), that amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead. And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb (Matt. 28:1) and to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1). These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.

As the objects of religion were gradually reduced to the standard of the imagination, the rites and ceremonies were introduced that seemed most powerfully to affect the senses of the vulgar.

I wonder if the writer thinks that the Jewish rituals were also "vulgar." There are good rituals and bad rituals. But rituals in and of themselves are not bad if they point to Christ and have an authentic Christians purpoase, as all Catholic rituals do.


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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 01:32:15 PM »
Gibbon on the whole was a very competent hisorian. But when it came to religiuon he let his biases shine through. He had a bias against any kind of organized religion, esp. Roman Catholicism. Pointing out valid and legitimate criticisms is one thing, but slandering a religion out of preconcieved ideas and biases is another thing altogether, something no reputable historian should should allow himself to do.
Pax.

Quote
"but slandering a religion out of preconcieved ideas and biases is another thing altogether..."

     And this is where the bone rubs, Lee.  If—I say if—the historian is writing about the facts of history, and those facts include the defects and evils of a particular religion, those of that religion will likely accuse him of preconceived ideas and biases. The charge may be valid, but on the other hand it may be invalid. So the bottom line, in most cases, is that it depends on the reader and his religious affiliation.

     Gibbon and many other historians may have been of the atheistic mindset.  Yet that does not negate the facts they present—assuming they are facts.


Presenting facts and interpreting (and in this case spinning) those facts are two different things.

Gibbon's biases against organized religion, esp. Catholicism, caused him to generalize, streotype and exaggerate all of the negatives or perceived negatives of Roman Catholicism. If he already believes that Catholicism is a bad thing, them finding "evidence" that supports his pre-conceived idea is fairly easy.

Buff, would you trust Nancy Pelosi, Charlie Rangel or Molly Ivins to be fair and objective if they were writing a biography of Pres. Bush? I wouldn't! Would you trust Al Franken to be fair and balanced towards Rush Limbaugh? I wouldn't! So why would you trust an atheist with an obvious bias against all forms of organized Christianity to be fair and objective when he's describing Roman Catholicism? That's right. You can't! When Gibbon slams the Catholic Church he's not being fair or balanced. There's a big diference between objective analysis of the Catholic Church, say, of the type recently done by Episcopalian historian and theologian Dr. Philip Jenkins, of Penn State, and hatchet jobs like that done by Gibbon and some Protestant authors.

In this case Gibbon wasn't writing history he was writing propaganda.

Pax.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 01:40:21 PM by Lee Freeman »
"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)

Amo

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Re: The worship of the Christian martyrs
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 05:44:13 PM »
 ::headscratch::  Some how, I lost the Catholicism board altogether.

 ::headscratch::  I don't even remember starting this thread. I guess when I get some time, I should respond, if I don't forget.  Maybe I'm getting spread a little to thin for my time table.