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Offline LightHammer

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To the Root of the Matter
« on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 12:55:43 »
Let's look at the history of Christianity.

None of us dispustes scripture so I ask that you try to use hisorical sources to validate your beliefs of the history of the faith. Yes we can use scripture but you are not meant to use scripture to ignore history.

This topic is meant for all of us to better understand the history of Christianity after scripture. Jesus Christ commanded the disciples to go out into the world and carry on the Gospel bringing together new believers. This topic is about what the disciples did after the Matser's ascension and after they completed scriptural writings.

Let's begin.

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To the Root of the Matter
« on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 12:55:43 »

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #1 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:05:46 »
Let's look at the history of Christianity.

None of us dispustes scripture so I ask that you try to use hisorical sources to validate your beliefs of the history of the faith. Yes we can use scripture but you are not meant to use scripture to ignore history.

This topic is meant for all of us to better understand the history of Christianity after scripture. Jesus Christ commanded the disciples to go out into the world and carry on the Gospel bringing together new believers. This topic is about what the disciples did after the Matser's ascension and after they completed scriptural writings.

Let's begin.

Great topic.

The book of Acts is a good biblical starting point.  We can learn from Acts that the Church was organized and hierarchical.  The issue of the papacy is not well defined in Acts, although we do see that God communicates new doctrine through Peter regarding gentile converts.

I believe this quote from Clement, who was the fourth pope and an aquaintance of both Peter and Paul, is a good starting point.  The authenticity of this letter is widely accepted and we can read about the existence of the letter from other early sources.



A key quote:

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).


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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #1 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:05:46 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #2 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:11:59 »
I appreciate the foundation Chester but for the sake of those who will deny the authenticity of history could you please site your sources?

Offline Josiah

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #3 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:23:08 »
Sure.  We may begin with the Book of Acts.

There we see NOTHING about Peter being the infallible Pope of Rome, NOTHING of any "keys" NOTHING of being the "vicar of Christ."  NOTHING about anyone or any denomination being unaccountable or infallible.  We see NO denomination - of any sort, by any name.  No mention of Catholic anything. 

We find CHRISTIANS being referred to as the church, and we see congregations: local gatherings/assemblies of Christians in a given place and time.  NONE of them mentioned as "founded by Jesus" or infallible/unaccountable or designated as specifically "the Church of Christ."  

We read about the importance of James - likely the brother of Jesus (not an Apostle), of Peter and especially of Paul.  But NEVER are ANY of these referred to as the Vicar of Christ or the Pope or holding any "keys" or being the mouth of God or being infallible/unaccountable.  And we read of no denomination.  One still existing or not.

We read about the first ecumenical council, lead by James (likely Jesus' borther and not one of the 12), holding all teachings as accountable, listening to all views, holding Peter in no special regard, and norming the positions by the Rule of Scripture (a praxis commonly known today as Sola Scriptura).   





.



.

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #3 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:23:08 »

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #4 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:37:22 »
Sure.  We may begin with the Book of Acts.

There we see NOTHING about Peter being the infallible Pope of Rome, NOTHING of any "keys" NOTHING of being the "vicar of Christ."  NOTHING about anyone or any denomination being unaccountable or infallible.  We see NO denomination - of any sort, by any name.  No mention of Catholic anything. 

We find CHRISTIANS being referred to as the church, and we see congregations: local gatherings/assemblies of Christians in a given place and time.  NONE of them mentioned as "founded by Jesus" or infallible/unaccountable or designated as specifically "the Church of Christ."  

We read about the importance of James - likely the brother of Jesus (not an Apostle), of Peter and especially of Paul.  But NEVER are ANY of these referred to as the Vicar of Christ or the Pope or holding any "keys" or being the mouth of God or being infallible/unaccountable.  And we read of no denomination.  One still existing or not.

We read about the first ecumenical council, lead by James (likely Jesus' borther and not one of the 12), holding all teachings as accountable, listening to all views, holding Peter in no special regard, and norming the positions by the Rule of Scripture (a praxis commonly known today as Sola Scriptura).   





.



.

You are right. 100%

So what is the history of the word "catholica" and how did it become the title of Christianity as whole until 1054 AD?

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #4 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:37:22 »



Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #5 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 13:58:38 »
I appreciate the foundation Chester but for the sake of those who will deny the authenticity of history could you please site your sources?


According to Tertullian, writing c. 199, the Roman Church claimed that Clement was ordained by St. Peter (De Praescript., xxxii), and St. Jerome tells us that in his time "most of the Latins" held that Clement was the immediate successor of the Apostle (Illustrious Men 15). St. Jerome himself in several other places follows this opinion, but here he correctly states that Clement was the fourth pope.

The Epistle is in the name of the Church of Rome but the early authorities always ascribe it to Clement. Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote c. 170 to the Romans in Pope Soter's time: "Today we kept the holy day, the Lord's day, and on it we read your letter- and we shall ever have it to give us instruction, even as the former one written through Clement" (Eusebius, Church History IV.30). Hegesippus attributed the letter to Clement. Irenaeus, c. 180-5 perhaps using Hegesippus, says: "Under this Clement no small sedition took place among the brethren at Corinth and the Church of Rome sent a most sufficient letter to the Corinthians, establishing them in peace, and renewing their faith, and announcing the tradition it had recently received from the Apostles" (III, iii). Clement of Alexandria, c. 200, frequently quotes the Epistle as Clement's, and so do Origen and Eusebius. Lightfoot and Harnack are fond of pointing out that we hear earlier of the importance of the Roman Church than of the authority of the Roman bishop.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

Offline LightHammer

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #6 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 14:22:47 »
I appreciate the foundation Chester but for the sake of those who will deny the authenticity of history could you please site your sources?


According to Tertullian, writing c. 199, the Roman Church claimed that Clement was ordained by St. Peter (De Praescript., xxxii), and St. Jerome tells us that in his time "most of the Latins" held that Clement was the immediate successor of the Apostle (Illustrious Men 15). St. Jerome himself in several other places follows this opinion, but here he correctly states that Clement was the fourth pope.

The Epistle is in the name of the Church of Rome but the early authorities always ascribe it to Clement. Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote c. 170 to the Romans in Pope Soter's time: "Today we kept the holy day, the Lord's day, and on it we read your letter- and we shall ever have it to give us instruction, even as the former one written through Clement" (Eusebius, Church History IV.30). Hegesippus attributed the letter to Clement. Irenaeus, c. 180-5 perhaps using Hegesippus, says: "Under this Clement no small sedition took place among the brethren at Corinth and the Church of Rome sent a most sufficient letter to the Corinthians, establishing them in peace, and renewing their faith, and announcing the tradition it had recently received from the Apostles" (III, iii). Clement of Alexandria, c. 200, frequently quotes the Epistle as Clement's, and so do Origen and Eusebius. Lightfoot and Harnack are fond of pointing out that we hear earlier of the importance of the Roman Church than of the authority of the Roman bishop.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm


John was the last living disciple when did he die? And what is the earliest historic writing of our faith outside of scripture?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #7 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 14:27:33 »
I appreciate the foundation Chester but for the sake of those who will deny the authenticity of history could you please site your sources?


According to Tertullian, writing c. 199, the Roman Church claimed that Clement was ordained by St. Peter (De Praescript., xxxii), and St. Jerome tells us that in his time "most of the Latins" held that Clement was the immediate successor of the Apostle (Illustrious Men 15). St. Jerome himself in several other places follows this opinion, but here he correctly states that Clement was the fourth pope.

The Epistle is in the name of the Church of Rome but the early authorities always ascribe it to Clement. Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote c. 170 to the Romans in Pope Soter's time: "Today we kept the holy day, the Lord's day, and on it we read your letter- and we shall ever have it to give us instruction, even as the former one written through Clement" (Eusebius, Church History IV.30). Hegesippus attributed the letter to Clement. Irenaeus, c. 180-5 perhaps using Hegesippus, says: "Under this Clement no small sedition took place among the brethren at Corinth and the Church of Rome sent a most sufficient letter to the Corinthians, establishing them in peace, and renewing their faith, and announcing the tradition it had recently received from the Apostles" (III, iii). Clement of Alexandria, c. 200, frequently quotes the Epistle as Clement's, and so do Origen and Eusebius. Lightfoot and Harnack are fond of pointing out that we hear earlier of the importance of the Roman Church than of the authority of the Roman bishop.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm


John was the last living disciple when did he die? And what is the earliest historic writing of our faith outside of scripture?


The assumption is that John died in the 90s, but it is not certain.  Much of the end of his life was spent in captivity on the Island of Patmos.

I believe that the earliest non scriptural writings are the Didache and the epistle of Clement.  Clement was nearly included in the Canon.

Other fragments are also available but I'm not that familiar with them.


Offline Catholica

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #8 on: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 14:51:31 »
We see reference to "The Way" in Acts, are they not a 'denomination'?

Acts 9:1-2
Now Saul, still breathing murderous threats against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, that, if he should find any men or women who belonged to the Way, he might bring them back to Jerusalem in chains.

Acts 19:8-9
He entered the synagogue, and for three months debated boldly with persuasive arguments about the kingdom of God.  But when some in their obstinacy and disbelief disparaged the Way before the assembly, he withdrew and took his disciples with him and began to hold daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

Acts 19:23
About that time a serious disturbance broke out concerning the Way.

Acts 22:4
I persecuted this Way to death, binding both men and women and delivering them to prison.

Acts 24:14
But this I do admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our ancestors and I believe everything that is in accordance with the law and written in the prophets.

Note: The word "denomination" was not even invented until the 15th century, and in modern terminology, re: 17th century, "denomination" gained its contemporary usage as meaning a "religious sect".

Acts 24:22
Then Felix, who was accurately informed about the Way, postponed the trial, saying, "When Lysias the commander comes down, I shall decide your case."

Acts 2:15a
During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place).

Note: In Judaism, in order to start your own religious sect, you needed 120 persons, which is why the reference here is to one hundred and twenty persons.
« Last Edit: Tue Nov 09, 2010 - 15:27:10 by Catholica »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #9 on: Wed Nov 10, 2010 - 03:12:54 »
Why did you never answer my question Josiah?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #10 on: Wed Nov 10, 2010 - 17:33:41 »
Let's look at the history of Christianity.

None of us dispustes scripture so I ask that you try to use hisorical sources to validate your beliefs of the history of the faith. Yes we can use scripture but you are not meant to use scripture to ignore history.

This topic is meant for all of us to better understand the history of Christianity after scripture. Jesus Christ commanded the disciples to go out into the world and carry on the Gospel bringing together new believers. This topic is about what the disciples did after the Matser's ascension and after they completed scriptural writings.

Let's begin.

Great topic.

The book of Acts is a good biblical starting point.  We can learn from Acts that the Church was organized and hierarchical.  The issue of the papacy is not well defined in Acts, although we do see that God communicates new doctrine through Peter regarding gentile converts.

I believe this quote from Clement, who was the fourth pope and an aquaintance of both Peter and Paul, is a good starting point.  The authenticity of this letter is widely accepted and we can read about the existence of the letter from other early sources.



A key quote:

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
I have no problem with anything you said here.  Clement clearly was a leader at the church at Rome, and wrote the letter in question.

However, if one is credulous of the Acts of Peter and Paul, one would have to accept that

1) Peter did not appoint a successor prior to his death.
2) The church at Rome was founded by both Peter AND PAUL, and both were recognized as it's leaders.

Scripture corroborates that both apostles traveled to Rome, and the Paul, at least, died there.

In fact, all of the Scriptures indicate that leadership in the church was plural, and that everyone was meant to participate.  The best such example is the instructions on what to do with a brother who is sinning.

First you confront him yourself... this would indicate that each person as an individual exercises some authority as their brother's episkopos (overseer).

Then you take two or three to confront him... here we simply have the normative Jewish teaching "by the witness of 2 or 3 let it be established."  If we assume that the rest of the Jewish system goes along with this teaching, this would also mean that someone is there to judge.  That might be a bishop, or at least an elder, but there's no titles associated with this in the NT.  Paul does exhort the brethren to judge themselves, and not go before civil courts to settle matters, so some sort of judge must exist.

Finally, you take him before the entire church if he persists in sin.  I find it noteworthy that the entire church as an ecumenical body is the final authority.  Paul spends a lot of time telling us that we are, collectively, the body of Christ, and that we ought to be in unity, and that we need to work together. 

So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.

Jarrod


Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #11 on: Wed Nov 10, 2010 - 17:41:34 »
Let's look at the history of Christianity.

None of us dispustes scripture so I ask that you try to use hisorical sources to validate your beliefs of the history of the faith. Yes we can use scripture but you are not meant to use scripture to ignore history.

This topic is meant for all of us to better understand the history of Christianity after scripture. Jesus Christ commanded the disciples to go out into the world and carry on the Gospel bringing together new believers. This topic is about what the disciples did after the Matser's ascension and after they completed scriptural writings.

Let's begin.

Great topic.

The book of Acts is a good biblical starting point.  We can learn from Acts that the Church was organized and hierarchical.  The issue of the papacy is not well defined in Acts, although we do see that God communicates new doctrine through Peter regarding gentile converts.

I believe this quote from Clement, who was the fourth pope and an aquaintance of both Peter and Paul, is a good starting point.  The authenticity of this letter is widely accepted and we can read about the existence of the letter from other early sources.



A key quote:

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
I have no problem with anything you said here.  Clement clearly was a leader at the church at Rome, and wrote the letter in question.

However, if one is credulous of the Acts of Peter and Paul, one would have to accept that

1) Peter did not appoint a successor prior to his death.
2) The church at Rome was founded by both Peter AND PAUL, and both were recognized as it's leaders.

Scripture corroborates that both apostles traveled to Rome, and the Paul, at least, died there.

In fact, all of the Scriptures indicate that leadership in the church was plural, and that everyone was meant to participate.  The best such example is the instructions on what to do with a brother who is sinning.

First you confront him yourself... this would indicate that each person as an individual exercises some authority as their brother's episkopos (overseer).

Then you take two or three to confront him... here we simply have the normative Jewish teaching "by the witness of 2 or 3 let it be established."  If we assume that the rest of the Jewish system goes along with this teaching, this would also mean that someone is there to judge.  That might be a bishop, or at least an elder, but there's no titles associated with this in the NT.  Paul does exhort the brethren to judge themselves, and not go before civil courts to settle matters, so some sort of judge must exist.

Finally, you take him before the entire church if he persists in sin.  I find it noteworthy that the entire church as an ecumenical body is the final authority.  Paul spends a lot of time telling us that we are, collectively, the body of Christ, and that we ought to be in unity, and that we need to work together. 

So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.

Jarrod




Peter was the  head of the apostles.  When he died, a replacement was chosen.

I think you need to look up the definition of hierarchy!




Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #12 on: Wed Nov 10, 2010 - 19:06:08 »
When I say hierarchy, I mean the linear structure of authority from top to bottom.  

A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  ::smile::  In this case, the collected church acting together is the top of the hierarchy.  The small group "2 or 3 gathered in my name" acts as the intermediate rung, and the individual acting in Christ as the 3rd rung.  All of these are authorities over individuals acting on their own - the rank and file.

Unless of course you mean the etymological definition.  The root Hieros is Greek transliterated from Egyptian and translates as "priest," while the second root Arche generally means "first" or at least "above the others."  But then you knew that.

Jarrod

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #13 on: Wed Nov 10, 2010 - 21:49:52 »
When I say hierarchy, I mean the linear structure of authority from top to bottom.  

A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  ::smile::  In this case, the collected church acting together is the top of the hierarchy.  The small group "2 or 3 gathered in my name" acts as the intermediate rung, and the individual acting in Christ as the 3rd rung.  All of these are authorities over individuals acting on their own - the rank and file.

Unless of course you mean the etymological definition.  The root Hieros is Greek transliterated from Egyptian and translates as "priest," while the second root Arche generally means "first" or at least "above the others."  But then you knew that.

Jarrod

So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.

Jesus created a Church with leaders, and he gave a single man the keys to the Kingdom in order to assure unity.

St. Cyprian explains the importance of this act here:

Cyprian of Carthage



"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. ... ’ [Matt. 16:18]. On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair , and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. . . . If someone today does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he should desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; first edition [A.D. 251]).


Offline LightHammer

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #14 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 04:28:05 »
When I say hierarchy, I mean the linear structure of authority from top to bottom.  

A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  ::smile::  In this case, the collected church acting together is the top of the hierarchy.  The small group "2 or 3 gathered in my name" acts as the intermediate rung, and the individual acting in Christ as the 3rd rung.  All of these are authorities over individuals acting on their own - the rank and file.

Unless of course you mean the etymological definition.  The root Hieros is Greek transliterated from Egyptian and translates as "priest," while the second root Arche generally means "first" or at least "above the others."  But then you knew that.

Jarrod

Just one problem with your theory brother. What happens when the Church as whole can't decide on official doctrine? If the Church as a whole is a greater authority than those chosen by the apostles, who were chosen by Jesus, then how do we begin to officiate and teach when we are unable to reach a concensus over Truth?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #15 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 11:56:06 »
When I say hierarchy, I mean the linear structure of authority from top to bottom. 

A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  ::smile::  In this case, the collected church acting together is the top of the hierarchy.  The small group "2 or 3 gathered in my name" acts as the intermediate rung, and the individual acting in Christ as the 3rd rung.  All of these are authorities over individuals acting on their own - the rank and file.

Unless of course you mean the etymological definition.  The root Hieros is Greek transliterated from Egyptian and translates as "priest," while the second root Arche generally means "first" or at least "above the others."  But then you knew that.

Jarrod
So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.
In what way?  I think everything I said is lucid... where is the flaw?

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #16 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 12:09:38 »
When I say hierarchy, I mean the linear structure of authority from top to bottom. 

A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  ::smile::  In this case, the collected church acting together is the top of the hierarchy.  The small group "2 or 3 gathered in my name" acts as the intermediate rung, and the individual acting in Christ as the 3rd rung.  All of these are authorities over individuals acting on their own - the rank and file.

Unless of course you mean the etymological definition.  The root Hieros is Greek transliterated from Egyptian and translates as "priest," while the second root Arche generally means "first" or at least "above the others."  But then you knew that.

Jarrod
Just one problem with your theory brother. What happens when the Church as whole can't decide on official doctrine? If the Church as a whole is a greater authority than those chosen by the apostles, who were chosen by Jesus, then how do we begin to officiate and teach when we are unable to reach a concensus over Truth?
As fragmented as you might want to perceive it, the various factions/denominations agree on far more than they disagree on.  And those things we disagree on, are mostly ephemeral, or at least peripheral.  Even if our forbearers have behaved badly towards each other in these disagreements.

As far as how we ought to act and what we ought to do - we're all in agreement.  Our disagreements are about things like how God saves us and what some verse here or there means.  The larger issues are that God saves us, and the overall message of the Bible.

Again, there is agreement among Christians everywhere on who Christians are.  Catholics and Protestants both recognize each other as Christians, along with the Orthodox.  Occasionally, some church here or there goes off the tracks, and then there is a disfellowshipping.  And generally, any faithful left in the faithless place leave and refind the church.

Jarrod

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #17 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 13:32:33 »

So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.
In what way?  I think everything I said is lucid... where is the flaw?
[/quote]

I was referring to this:


Quote
So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.


Hierachy involves different ranks with authority over lower ranks.  A hierarchy must eventually end with a single leader.

Here's one definition:

An organisation with few things, or one thing, at the top and with several things below each other thing. An inverted tree structure.


What you are describing would be more like a caste system.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #18 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 13:48:54 »
When I say hierarchy, I mean the linear structure of authority from top to bottom. 

A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  ::smile::  In this case, the collected church acting together is the top of the hierarchy.  The small group "2 or 3 gathered in my name" acts as the intermediate rung, and the individual acting in Christ as the 3rd rung.  All of these are authorities over individuals acting on their own - the rank and file.

Unless of course you mean the etymological definition.  The root Hieros is Greek transliterated from Egyptian and translates as "priest," while the second root Arche generally means "first" or at least "above the others."  But then you knew that.

Jarrod
Just one problem with your theory brother. What happens when the Church as whole can't decide on official doctrine? If the Church as a whole is a greater authority than those chosen by the apostles, who were chosen by Jesus, then how do we begin to officiate and teach when we are unable to reach a concensus over Truth?
As fragmented as you might want to perceive it, the various factions/denominations agree on far more than they disagree on.  And those things we disagree on, are mostly ephemeral, or at least peripheral.  Even if our forbearers have behaved badly towards each other in these disagreements.

As far as how we ought to act and what we ought to do - we're all in agreement.  Our disagreements are about things like how God saves us and what some verse here or there means.  The larger issues are that God saves us, and the overall message of the Bible.

Again, there is agreement among Christians everywhere on who Christians are.  Catholics and Protestants both recognize each other as Christians, along with the Orthodox.  Occasionally, some church here or there goes off the tracks, and then there is a disfellowshipping.  And generally, any faithful left in the faithless place leave and refind the church.

Jarrod


On come on play fair brother. As a whole Christianity isn't even united in their belief of the divinity of Jesus. As a whole we don't even agree on the requisits of salvation. As a whole we are far apart. If your theory is to hold water and the church as an entire body is the authority than as a whole we should be united unless doctrinally because Christ promised that He would not allow His Church to slip into doctrinal error.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #19 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 16:19:34 »
On come on play fair brother. As a whole Christianity isn't even united in their belief of the divinity of Jesus. As a whole we don't even agree on the requisits of salvation. As a whole we are far apart. If your theory is to hold water and the church as an entire body is the authority than as a whole we should be united unless doctrinally because Christ promised that He would not allow His Church to slip into doctrinal error.
Play fair?  What did I say that wasn't fair or true?

To the best of my knowledge, Christianity IS united in the belief in Jesus divinity.  We don't all understand the trinity and perhaps can't explain it, but I don't know anyone who would identify themselves as Christian without believe that Jesus is God, somehow or other.

Is salvation well understood?  Not really.  Half of us can't define it, and the other half define it wrong.  One thing we all seem to agree on is that it's up to God, and not up to us.  That's a liveable arrangement.

Seriously, though, I see it this way:  We're the body of Christ, and not the Head.  In other words, we act on His behalf, but not to establish doctrine or consider philosophical questions, or clarify His position on some societal position.  We're there to feed the poor, clothe the naked, care for the elderly, treat the sick, and pass on what He said, with as little commentary as possible. ::smile::

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #20 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 16:21:48 »
So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.
In what way?  I think everything I said is lucid... where is the flaw?

I was referring to this:
Quote
So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.


Hierachy involves different ranks with authority over lower ranks.  A hierarchy must eventually end with a single leader.

Here's one definition:

An organisation with few things, or one thing, at the top and with several things below each other thing. An inverted tree structure.

What you are describing would be more like a caste system.
A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  Most corporations have at their top level a board of directors or board of trustees.  It's still a hierarchy.

Jarrod
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 17:29:07 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline Catholica

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #21 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 17:07:32 »
Quote from: chestertonrules

So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.
In what way?  I think everything I said is lucid... where is the flaw?

I was referring to this:
Quote
So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.

Hierachy involves different ranks with authority over lower ranks.  A hierarchy must eventually end with a single leader.

Here's one definition:

An organisation with few things, or one thing, at the top and with several things below each other thing. An inverted tree structure.

What you are describing would be more like a caste system.
A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  Most corporations have at their top level a board of directors or board of trustees.  It's still a hierarchy.

Jarrod

So you see that the Catholic Church says that, if you see your brother sinning, you should first call the bishop, then the priest and or deacons, and next a few friends, and finally confront the person directly?   ::headscratch::

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #22 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 17:31:08 »
Quote from: chestertonrules

So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.
In what way?  I think everything I said is lucid... where is the flaw?

I was referring to this:
Quote
So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.

Hierachy involves different ranks with authority over lower ranks.  A hierarchy must eventually end with a single leader.

Here's one definition:

An organisation with few things, or one thing, at the top and with several things below each other thing. An inverted tree structure.

What you are describing would be more like a caste system.
A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  Most corporations have at their top level a board of directors or board of trustees.  It's still a hierarchy.

Jarrod
So you see that the Catholic Church says that, if you see your brother sinning, you should first call the bishop, then the priest and or deacons, and next a few friends, and finally confront the person directly?   ::headscratch::
Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

Offline mclees8

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #23 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 18:24:14 »
So you see that the Catholic Church says that, if you see your brother sinning, you should first call the bishop, then the priest and or deacons, and next a few friends, and finally confront the person directly?   Scratching head....a little confused.



Mike
I believe you have this backwards. I don't have the exact scripture right now, but I believe it goes " it you see your brother in a sin you first address him personally, and if then he does here you then take it to the elders. and he he then will not listen then tell it to the whole church.

This might not be a perfect quote but perhaps someone can locate the scripture for us
God bless

Offline Catholica

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #24 on: Thu Nov 11, 2010 - 18:37:31 »
Quote from: chestertonrules

So your understanding of hierarchy was not quite accurate.
In what way?  I think everything I said is lucid... where is the flaw?

I was referring to this:
Quote
So, while I do see a hierarchy here, it's pretty much the opposite of the one the RCC employs - an inverted triangle, with the group at the top, and an individual at the bottom.

Hierachy involves different ranks with authority over lower ranks.  A hierarchy must eventually end with a single leader.

Here's one definition:

An organisation with few things, or one thing, at the top and with several things below each other thing. An inverted tree structure.

What you are describing would be more like a caste system.
A group acting collectively may be considered a single entity for the purpose of charting such things.  Most corporations have at their top level a board of directors or board of trustees.  It's still a hierarchy.

Jarrod
So you see that the Catholic Church says that, if you see your brother sinning, you should first call the bishop, then the priest and or deacons, and next a few friends, and finally confront the person directly?   ::headscratch::
Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

Not at all, its just that the original context of this argument came from this set of verses, and the way I was reading it it seemed as if you were saying that the Catholic Church wasn't organized this way.  I was trying to clarify because it got confusing with all the upside down/right side up triangle argument.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #25 on: Tue Nov 16, 2010 - 15:19:42 »
Maybe we should stay away from diagrams in our happy happy text only forum. ::smile::  I seem to have created confusion rather than elucidating my point.

My point is that the hierarchy I see in the Bible has at it's head the entire assemblage of the church.  (Not taken as individuals, but as a group.  Ecumenically, if I'm using that word right.)

Jarrod

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #26 on: Tue Nov 16, 2010 - 15:24:07 »
Maybe we should stay away from diagrams in our happy happy text only forum. ::smile::  I seem to have created confusion rather than elucidating my point.

My point is that the hierarchy I see in the Bible has at it's head the entire assemblage of the church.  (Not taken as individuals, but as a group.  Ecumenically, if I'm using that word right.)

Jarrod

 

If this were so, why would the Christians at Antioch have had to consult Church leaders in Jerusalem for a doctrinal decision regarding circumcision of gentiles?

In addition, we find ample evidence of a leadership structure throughout the New Testament, including Bishops.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #27 on: Tue Nov 16, 2010 - 15:36:14 »
Maybe we should stay away from diagrams in our happy happy text only forum. ::smile::  I seem to have created confusion rather than elucidating my point.

My point is that the hierarchy I see in the Bible has at it's head the entire assemblage of the church.  (Not taken as individuals, but as a group.  Ecumenically, if I'm using that word right.)

Jarrod

 

If this were so, why would the Christians at Antioch have had to consult Church leaders in Jerusalem for a doctrinal decision regarding circumcision of gentiles?

In addition, we find ample evidence of a leadership structure throughout the New Testament, including Bishops.


Using the word "bishops" for the lack thereof a better. I doubt the called eachother bishop back then but yes the hierchy is still there.

Offline Catholica

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #28 on: Tue Nov 16, 2010 - 15:52:53 »
Maybe we should stay away from diagrams in our happy happy text only forum. ::smile::  I seem to have created confusion rather than elucidating my point.

My point is that the hierarchy I see in the Bible has at it's head the entire assemblage of the church.  (Not taken as individuals, but as a group.  Ecumenically, if I'm using that word right.)

Jarrod

If I think about this actually happening, only the word "cruel" comes to mind.  If a person is sinning and one person can't correct them, and a small group can't bring them to repentance, then broadcast their sin to all the Christians in the congregation/world?

I don't think that is necessarily going to bring healing or really help that person rejoin the congregation, to have their sin broadcast to everyone.  Do Protestant churches have email lists for this sort of thing?  Where everyone can be made know of everyone else's sin?

Rather, a more loving thing would be for the pastors, those in charge of their souls, to be brought into the mix, someone with authority over the person's soul, and his sin be kept as private as possible.  Especially since one person's sin might cause scandal for those close to him which in itself a sin!  And telling other people about another's sin is also a sin, the sin of detraction.

I think that "tell the Church" as meaning the entire congregation or universality of believers is just not the correct interpretation here.

Hebrews 13
17 Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #29 on: Wed Nov 17, 2010 - 15:40:49 »
Maybe we should stay away from diagrams in our happy happy text only forum. ::smile::  I seem to have created confusion rather than elucidating my point.

My point is that the hierarchy I see in the Bible has at it's head the entire assemblage of the church.  (Not taken as individuals, but as a group.  Ecumenically, if I'm using that word right.)

Jarrod

 

If this were so, why would the Christians at Antioch have had to consult Church leaders in Jerusalem for a doctrinal decision regarding circumcision of gentiles?

In addition, we find ample evidence of a leadership structure throughout the New Testament, including Bishops.
You realize your question can only ever be speculated about, right?

I would speculate that it was because the question was a global one, that didn't just affect their church.  So they sent their people to join with the others who were at Jerusalem.  That comprised virtually all of Christendom at that point.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #30 on: Wed Nov 17, 2010 - 16:08:49 »
Maybe we should stay away from diagrams in our happy happy text only forum. ::smile::  I seem to have created confusion rather than elucidating my point.

My point is that the hierarchy I see in the Bible has at it's head the entire assemblage of the church.  (Not taken as individuals, but as a group.  Ecumenically, if I'm using that word right.)

Jarrod

If I think about this actually happening, only the word "cruel" comes to mind.  If a person is sinning and one person can't correct them, and a small group can't bring them to repentance, then broadcast their sin to all the Christians in the congregation/world?

I don't think that is necessarily going to bring healing or really help that person rejoin the congregation, to have their sin broadcast to everyone.
Broadcast?  Rejoin?  Methinks you have missed the point.  It isn't to shame them into repentance, or somehow denigrate them.  Nor is the primary purpose of such an assembly necessarily a reconciliation. 

Remember first, if it comes to this point, it is because private correction has already failed

The church is convened, first for the purpose of determining if the accusation is truthful, and if it, for the purpose of putting them out of the church.  It's recant or leave.  A last chance is offered, yes, but the purpose is to preserve the church at large as spotless before God.

Quote
Do Protestant churches have email lists for this sort of thing?  Where everyone can be made know of everyone else's sin?
Was that really necessary? Are you trying to initiate some sort of pissing contest?  If so, I'm not much interested in that.

Quote
Rather, a more loving thing would be for the pastors, those in charge of their souls, to be brought into the mix, someone with authority over the person's soul, and his sin be kept as private as possible.
This step is happening only because that has already failed.

Quote
Especially since one person's sin might cause scandal for those close to him which in itself a sin! 
And telling other people about another's sin is also a sin, the sin of detraction.
I respectfully disagree.  It would be sinful to maliciously defame someone.  And it is always preferable to resolve the problem privately.  But, there is something to be said for taking full measures, and not only half ones.

If I may go on a small tangent here... the church was never meant to tolerate members continuing willfully in sin.  Paul urges one of the churches to put a man out.  John reprimands a church for tolerating "spots" in their assembly.

The current church, Catholic & Protestant alike, seems to have lost the teeth to do so.  I think this is because they are too worried about numbers - attendance and income.

Quote
I think that "tell the Church" as meaning the entire congregation or universality of believers is just not the correct interpretation here.
Then how would you interpret it?  Doesn't "the church" mean "the assembly?"

Jarrod

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: To the Root of the Matter
« Reply #31 on: Wed Nov 17, 2010 - 21:52:43 »
You realize your question can only ever be speculated about, right?

I would speculate that it was because the question was a global one, that didn't just affect their church.  So they sent their people to join with the others who were at Jerusalem.  That comprised virtually all of Christendom at that point.

Jarrod


No, I don't think it is speculation.  I think it is clear that the Christians at Antioch recognized that this question was beyond their authority.

The Church leaders were at Jerusalem.  The answer to the question came from God through Peter in a vision. 

After Rome destroyed Jerusalem, the leadership moved elsewhere, settling in Rome.  Rome was a leading city int he world and  Peter and Paul had already established the Church in Rome, so this is not surprising.

Jesus didn't just wander the countryside teaching, he chose leaders to protect and preserve his message.