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Offline wincam

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Touch me not ?
« on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:46:59 »
most Christians do not know or fully understand why - any comments - wincam

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Touch me not ?
« on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 06:46:59 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #1 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:28:24 »
most Christians do not know or fully understand why - any comments - wincam

know or understand what?   why what? Your post is incomplete.   

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #1 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 17:28:24 »

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #2 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 13:23:04 »
most Christians do not know or fully understand why - any comments - wincam

know or understand what?   why what? Your post is incomplete.


have you understood why Jesus said "TOUCH ME NOT" = wincam

Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 13:28:23 »
most Christians do not know or fully understand why - any comments - wincam

know or understand what?   why what? Your post is incomplete.


have you understood why Jesus said "TOUCH ME NOT" = wincam

Yes I have.
Question answered so lets move on.

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 13:28:23 »

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 15:18:09 »
most Christians are unaware of the magic of the Resurrection and pay scant honour and respect to him who jeopardised his own life and ensured it by challenging the whole weight of the Sanhedrin and Jewish law that death on a cross warranted burning as untouchable especially in the case of Jesus who was loaded with all the filth of the world - still loaded with this filth before He ascended to His father to be cleansed and to reclaim His glory "which I had with Thee before the world was" - as untouchable, as with lepers, Mary would have been regarded as contaminated - wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 15:18:09 »



Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 01:01:05 »
most Christians are unaware of the magic of the Resurrection and pay scant honour and respect to him who jeopardised his own life and ensured it by challenging the whole weight of the Sanhedrin and Jewish law that death on a cross warranted burning as untouchable especially in the case of Jesus who was loaded with all the filth of the world - still loaded with this filth before He ascended to His father to be cleansed and to reclaim His glory "which I had with Thee before the world was" - as untouchable, as with lepers, Mary would have been regarded as contaminated - wincam

unsubstantiated rambling

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 02:56:37 »
only goes to show that you do not really know your Christianity or your Bible - wincam

Offline skeeter

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 03:30:52 »
only goes to show that you do not really know your Christianity or your Bible - wincam

the posts do make it clear who knows...

Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 03:57:51 »
only goes to show that you do not really know your Christianity or your Bible - wincam

You know what is remarkable? You making a whole point that Jesus was not to be "touched" and then go off about the filth loaded untouchable people in the world, whilst Jesus Himself in the same verse gives us the reason why He should not be "touched".

Read with care: "Jesus said unto her: touch Me not for I am not yet ascended to My God" - John 20:17

The reason why Mary should not touch Him was because Jesus had not ascended yet.
To understand this you must understand the meaning of the word "touch".
To touch in this context means "to cling to" or "to fasten".

What Jesus is telling Mary is "Do not try to keep Me here, because I need to ascend to My God"

If what you say is true, and Jesus was not to be touched because of the filth...then why did Jesus invite Thomas to touch Him in John 20:27?
"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
At that point, when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him, He also had not ascended to the Father yet.

It is quite obvious that your explanation of John 20:17 is incorrect.

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:00:21 »
obviously you do not understand and will not it seems since you will not even read or understand Jn.20:17 and Jn.20:27 carefully and correctly - wincam

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:34:22 »
most Christians are unaware

HOW can you possibly know what MOST of anybody is doing or thinking or believing?  ::frown::

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #11 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:34:49 »
most Christians are unaware of the magic of the Resurrection and pay scant honour and respect to him who jeopardised his own life and ensured it by challenging the whole weight of the Sanhedrin and Jewish law that death on a cross warranted burning as untouchable especially in the case of Jesus who was loaded with all the filth of the world - still loaded with this filth before He ascended to His father to be cleansed and to reclaim His glory "which I had with Thee before the world was" - as untouchable, as with lepers, Mary would have been regarded as contaminated - wincam

unsubstantiated rambling

 ::eek:: ::nodding::  ::juggle::

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #12 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 08:36:06 »
only goes to show that you do not really know your Christianity or your Bible - wincam

You know what is remarkable? You making a whole point that Jesus was not to be "touched" and then go off about the filth loaded untouchable people in the world, whilst Jesus Himself in the same verse gives us the reason why He should not be "touched".

Read with care: "Jesus said unto her: touch Me not for I am not yet ascended to My God" - John 20:17

The reason why Mary should not touch Him was because Jesus had not ascended yet.
To understand this you must understand the meaning of the word "touch".
To touch in this context means "to cling to" or "to fasten".

What Jesus is telling Mary is "Do not try to keep Me here, because I need to ascend to My God"

If what you say is true, and Jesus was not to be touched because of the filth...then why did Jesus invite Thomas to touch Him in John 20:27?
"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
At that point, when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him, He also had not ascended to the Father yet.

It is quite obvious that your explanation of John 20:17 is incorrect.

Good post!

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:06:12 »
only goes to show that you do not really know your Christianity or your Bible - wincam

You know what is remarkable? You making a whole point that Jesus was not to be "touched" and then go off about the filth loaded untouchable people in the world, whilst Jesus Himself in the same verse gives us the reason why He should not be "touched".

Read with care: "Jesus said unto her: touch Me not for I am not yet ascended to My God" - John 20:17

The reason why Mary should not touch Him was because Jesus had not ascended yet.
To understand this you must understand the meaning of the word "touch".
To touch in this context means "to cling to" or "to fasten".

What Jesus is telling Mary is "Do not try to keep Me here, because I need to ascend to My God"

If what you say is true, and Jesus was not to be touched because of the filth...then why did Jesus invite Thomas to touch Him in John 20:27?
"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
At that point, when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him, He also had not ascended to the Father yet.

It is quite obvious that your explanation of John 20:17 is incorrect.

So are you saying it's simply a poor translation? I so wanna smash your pic now...

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:10:14 »
not at all a good post - Jn.20:17 and 20:27 have been incorrectly read and interpreted and must be read most carefully  - how about this for a good post and true as well - as an aside read to the end of 17 and also read 26 - so how about that then - come home now all is forgiven - wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #15 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:17:26 »
not at all a good post - Jn.20:17 and 20:27 have been incorrectly read and interpreted and must be read most carefully  - how about this for a good post and true as well - as an aside read to the end of 17 and also read 26 - so how about that then - come home now all is forgiven - wincam

Oh, of COURSE it has been incorrectly read, because if it were *correctly* read, everyone would agree with you, right?  ::frown::

God has forgiven me, I don't need yours since no sin has been committed against you, but thanks anyway.

And, for the millionth time...I *am* home! I am God's child.  ::clappingoverhead::

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #16 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:22:44 »
not at all a good post - Jn.20:17 and 20:27 have been incorrectly read and interpreted and must be read most carefully  - how about this for a good post and true as well - as an aside read to the end of 17 and also read 26 - so how about that then - come home now all is forgiven - wincam

Oh, of COURSE it has been incorrectly read, because if it were *correctly* read, everyone would agree with you, right?  ::frown::

God has forgiven me, I don't need yours since no sin has been committed against you, but thanks anyway.

And, for the millionth time...I *am* home! I am God's child.  ::clappingoverhead::


agreeing with me is not what it is all about but agreeing with God is imho - wincam

Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #17 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:31:16 »
only goes to show that you do not really know your Christianity or your Bible - wincam

You know what is remarkable? You making a whole point that Jesus was not to be "touched" and then go off about the filth loaded untouchable people in the world, whilst Jesus Himself in the same verse gives us the reason why He should not be "touched".

Read with care: "Jesus said unto her: touch Me not for I am not yet ascended to My God" - John 20:17

The reason why Mary should not touch Him was because Jesus had not ascended yet.
To understand this you must understand the meaning of the word "touch".
To touch in this context means "to cling to" or "to fasten".

What Jesus is telling Mary is "Do not try to keep Me here, because I need to ascend to My God"

If what you say is true, and Jesus was not to be touched because of the filth...then why did Jesus invite Thomas to touch Him in John 20:27?
"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
At that point, when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him, He also had not ascended to the Father yet.

It is quite obvious that your explanation of John 20:17 is incorrect.

So are you saying it's simply a poor translation? I so wanna smash your pic now...

No its not necessarily a matter of poor translation, but of knowing what is meant with the word "touch".
There are a few Bible translations that do translate it differently.

I think the best way to look at it is when a person says for example: "Jesus touched me".
We don't mean to say that Jesus actually touched us, but that He has taken hold of us.

An alternative way of touching would be "Don't put your hands on me" as in when you put your hands on something.
Obtaining it, holding it or in law enforcement arresting it.

Personally I believe the translation could have been better. The ESV does a pretty good job, it says: "Do not cling to me".
WEB translates it with: "Do not hold me", and EBR does a very good job by translating it as: "Be not detaining me".

In any case and whatever translation one uses, it most definitely does not have anything to do with Jesus being loaded with filth as Wincam claims.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 09:37:17 by AVZ »

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #18 on: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 13:37:58 »
the only reasonable, sensible, acceptable, logical conclusion after all the many and various and conflicting translations must be that the literal and obvious must be accepted which as Catholics we are advised to accept at first unless reason or necessity dictate otherwise - so there is no reason to accept otherwise imho - btw not loaded with His filth but with ours - wincam   
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 24, 2015 - 13:45:17 by wincam »

Offline wincam

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Touch me not!
« Reply #19 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 06:55:05 »
why were these words uttered - wincam

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #20 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 07:42:50 »
Because Jesus said so. ::shrug::

That's the explanation my mom always gave when I asked why: "Because I SAID so!" ::nodding:: ::amen!::

Offline mclees8

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #21 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 08:02:54 »
Because Jesus said so. ::shrug::

That's the explanation my mom always gave when I asked why: "Because I SAID so!" ::nodding:: ::amen!::

Good advice    ::preachit::

Offline chosenone

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #22 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 10:18:17 »
I am sure this same thread was posted before?

Offline Alan

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #23 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 11:03:59 »
I am sure this same thread was posted before?


Yep  ::smile::

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #24 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 11:56:14 »
I am sure this same thread was posted before?


Yep  ::smile::


it seems so - so what was the conclusion - what is the conclusion here - wincam

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #25 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 12:40:30 »
I am sure this same thread was posted before?


Yep  ::smile::


it seems so - so what was the conclusion - what is the conclusion here - wincam

Jesus: The conclusion is, "because I said so!"

Offline wincam

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Re: Touch me not!
« Reply #26 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 13:09:52 »
I am sure this same thread was posted before?


Yep  ::smile::


it seems so - so what was the conclusion - what is the conclusion here - wincam

Jesus: The conclusion is, "because I said so!"

not so to Thomas it seems = wincam

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #27 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 13:55:08 »
Never mind the conclusion, what is the point here  ::giggle::

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #28 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 15:34:50 »
Never mind the conclusion, what is the point here  ::giggle::


can we not see great chunks of the prodigal son here - covered in pig swill and even worse our swill returning to His Father's house to be cleansed and rerobed with the glory I had with Thee before the world was[made sin] for I have finished the job you gave me to do - a crucified body was regarded as untouchable and burnt - lepers were  also regarded as untouchables and were required to cry out 'unclean unclean on being approached but Jesus just gently said 'touch me not - wincam' 

Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #29 on: Sun Oct 11, 2015 - 18:50:27 »
Never mind the conclusion, what is the point here  ::giggle::


can we not see great chunks of the prodigal son here - covered in pig swill and even worse our swill returning to His Father's house to be cleansed and rerobed with the glory I had with Thee before the world was[made sin] for I have finished the job you gave me to do - a crucified body was regarded as untouchable and burnt - lepers were  also regarded as untouchables and were required to cry out 'unclean unclean on being approached but Jesus just gently said 'touch me not - wincam'

So where did all that uncleanliness go when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him?

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #30 on: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 05:44:00 »
Never mind the conclusion, what is the point here  ::giggle::


can we not see great chunks of the prodigal son here - covered in pig swill and even worse our swill returning to His Father's house to be cleansed and rerobed with the glory I had with Thee before the world was[made sin] for I have finished the job you gave me to do - a crucified body was regarded as untouchable and burnt - lepers were  also regarded as untouchables and were required to cry out 'unclean unclean on being approached but Jesus just gently said 'touch me not - wincam'

So where did all that uncleanliness go when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him?
[/quote

the bible must be studied and not just read - the encounter with Thomas was eight or more days later[Jn.20:26] - so guess how long it took for Christ to ascend and be cleansed - btw after His mother who does scripture say touched Him the most[1Jn.1] - wincam





























« Last Edit: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 08:04:29 by wincam »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #31 on: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 08:17:26 »
Never mind the conclusion, what is the point here  ::giggle::


can we not see great chunks of the prodigal son here - covered in pig swill and even worse our swill returning to His Father's house to be cleansed and rerobed with the glory I had with Thee before the world was[made sin] for I have finished the job you gave me to do - a crucified body was regarded as untouchable and burnt - lepers were  also regarded as untouchables and were required to cry out 'unclean unclean on being approached but Jesus just gently said 'touch me not - wincam'

So where did all that uncleanliness go when Jesus asked Thomas to touch Him?

the bible must be studied and not just read - the encounter with Thomas was eight or more days later[Jn.20:26] - so guess how long it took for Christ to ascend and be cleansed - btw after His mother who does scripture say touched Him the most[1Jn.1] - wincam

Two things:

1) So you are saying that spiritual uncleanliness wears off after a number of days?
I can find that where in scripture?

2) This is what 1 John 1-4 states:

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we for ourselves gazed upon, and our hands did handle, concerning the Word of Life,
2 And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age–abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us;
3 That which we have seen and heard, are we announcing, even unto you, in order that, ye too, may have fellowship with us, and, our own fellowship also, may be with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And, these things, are we writing, in order that, our joy, may be made full.


Where exactly do you find Mary in there?

Offline Jaime

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #32 on: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 08:46:47 »
What had to happen to Jesus's blood, if the earthly tabernacle pattern of the heavenly tabernacle is valid? THE BLOOD MUST BE APPLIED TO THE HEAVENLY MERCY SEAT. Jesus rose from the dead to be our High Priest. I’ve concluded that at the time Jesus saw Mary Magdalene shortly after his resurrection, Jesus our High Priest was about to take his own blood into the Heavenly Tabernacle and apply his own blood to the Heavenly Mercy Seat of God. He told Mary “Don’t touch me! Why? Because nobody could touch the High Priest from the time he took that blood from the altar and walked to the mercy seat. (If anybody did touch him, the sacrifice was invalid). I believe he secretly ascended into God’s presence to APPLY his own shed blood. He couldn’t be touched as our High Priest prior to the application of the blood. He later appeared to Thomas and encouraged him to what? TOUCH his wounds. His visible ascension occurred 40 days later.
If only His death was required, Jesus was not our Passover, without the blood being applied. If only the death of Jesus was all it took to save us, He is not our atonement without the blood being applied. If the death was all it took to save us, we didn’t need to drink the wine in our last communion, we could have just taken the bread. It takes more than the broken body, it takes the shed blood, but not only the shed blood, but the APPLIED blood of Christ. Just like in the Exodus story. Shedding the blood of the lambs was not all that was required. The shed blood had to be APPLIED as God required.

Besides if "do not cling to me" was the intended translation, it could have easily been translated such.
« Last Edit: Tue Oct 13, 2015 - 16:22:07 by Jaime »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #33 on: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 10:08:25 »
Besides if "do not cling to me" was the intended translation, it could have easily been translated such.


Actually it is, many Bible translations do not translate it as "touch"

http://biblehub.com/john/20-17.htm


You can read a short but rather complete study here: http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/1975-1_016.pdf

But let me quote the final paragraph:

Having strayed this far from the main topic, let me conclude by
recapitulating the central point. Until modem times, the command
of Jesus, me mou haptou, has traditionally been rendered "touch me
not." But twentieth-century translators, almost without exception,
have interpreted it to mean, "do not hold me" or "do not cling to me."
This modem consensus seems based in part on theological considerations,
and in part on the need to harmonize the appearance of
Jesus to Mary Magdalene with his subsequent appearance to Thomas.
In my opinion, however, the modem interpretation is not in keeping
with what has been called the "psychological subtlety" of the Magdalene
episode. Therefore the traditional translation "touch me
not" is to be preferred and should be restored, for it allows us to
read the command of Jesus as a gentle warning to Mary, a sign that
their relationship can no longer be the same, since she is still in the
world, and he has now crossed over into the life beyond.
« Last Edit: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 10:15:39 by AVZ »

Offline Jaime

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Re: Touch me not ?
« Reply #34 on: Mon Oct 12, 2015 - 10:49:23 »
I would then say that modern day translators were applying a bias against the connection of the earthly tabernacle and the heavenly tabernacle, where the blood would be applied by an undefiled high priest. I do think Jesus and Mary's relationship would never be the same of course, but the touch me not statement seems to me to link the High Priestly attributes of Jesus as he was about to himself approach the heavenly mercy seat and sprinkle his own blood as the lamb of God, in likeness to the earthly tabernacle practice. Shedding the lambs blood was never good enough, it always had to be APPLIED in the earthly tabernacle that was patterned after the heavenly tabernacle. It seems this version would be perfectly congruent with Jesus allowing Thomas to touch his hands AFTER he apparently had secretly ascended to the heavenly mercy seat. This seems to me to resolve the apparent conundrum AND preserve the pattern demonstrated in the earthly tabernacle. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

     
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