Virgin Mary....Church Fathers

[wincam]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

do you think it holds some secret meaning?  Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus.   Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?

Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam

so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven?  I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him -  He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it.  Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?

Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly?  (prior to the time of His ministry)

'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off.  Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)

stop adding to the post to try and justify your stance - who said anything about [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam

[skeeter]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

do you think it holds some secret meaning?  Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus.   Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?

Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam

so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven?  I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him -  He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it.  Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?

Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly?  (prior to the time of His ministry)

'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off.  Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)

stop adding to the post to try and justify your stance - who said anything about [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam1

wincam  - the post of mine that you replied to is about 11 months old...

[wincam]

it is never too late to come back home again - btw it just is not in the bible that Mary had children other than just Jesus - wincam

[KiwiChristian]

Only a fool would believe that Mary was sinless in lieu of Romans 5:12... "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."  Of course, the Catholics, in an attempt to cover up one lie, had to fabricate another lie--the Assumption of Mary.  If Mary never sinned, then how could she die, because the Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

[winsome]

Rom 5:12-19 is not about personal sin but original sin. The fall from grace that Adam's fall inflicted on all mankind.

Verses 15-19
For if many died through one man's trespass.... For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,.... because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man..... as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men..... For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners....

Paul is contrasting the effect of Adam's fall on mankind (death) to the effect of Christ restoring grace (life).
If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (vs 17)

[KiwiChristian]

Rom 5:12-19 is not about personal sin but original sin. The fall from grace that Adam's fall inflicted on all mankind.

Yes, ALL mankind. This INCLUDES mary.

She was a sinner just like i am and just like you are.

Remember, if we deny we sin we call God a liar.

This would include mary.

Only a fool would believe that Mary was sinless in lieu of Romans 5:12... "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."  Of course, the Catholics, in an attempt to cover up one lie, had to fabricate another lie--the Assumption of Mary.  If Mary never sinned, then how could she die, because the Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

The bigger-than-life Mary of Roman Catholicism is a FALSE portrayal of the Biblical Mary (the Bible never portrays Mary as being anything more than a godly woman used by God).

[Isaias]

what is being queried is why some do not believe it when the early Christians did and still do - are we to presume that the Church did in fact fail and that some very much later date reformer reformed it and that Christ's prayer went and goes unanswered - no way and not at all imho -
 
 Of course the early church failed, even when Paul was alive churches were going off course(for example some going back into works and telling others that they should get circumcised) hence his need to write them and correct them. Men are fallible which is why we need Gods word as our guidance and plumb line.

Wasnt it St Augustine who declared that God goes out of the room when we have sex? Yep VERY fallible.

There is some confusion regarding the indefectibility of the Catholic church here.  The Catholic church cannot fail.  The Catholic church is a society of believers, the buildings are the place of worship.  And so, those holding to every teaching of the Catholic church, they are the Immaculate Catholic church.

St. Athanasius: “Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they would be the true Church.”

Fr. William Jurgens: “At one point in the Church’s history, only a few years before Gregory’s [Nazianz] present preaching (+380 A.D.), perhaps the number of Catholic bishops in possession of sees, as opposed to Arian bishops in possession of sees, was no greater than something between 1% and 3% of the total. Had doctrine been determined by popularity, today we should all be deniers of Christ and opponents of the Spirit.”

Fr. William Jurgens: “In the time of the Emperor Valens (4th century), Basil was virtually the only orthodox Bishop in all the East who succeeded in retaining charge of his see… If it has no other importance for modern man, a knowledge of the history of Arianism should demonstrate at least that the Catholic Church takes no account of popularity and numbers in shaping and maintaining doctrine: else, we should long since have had to abandon Basil and Hilary and Athanasius and Liberius and Ossius and call ourselves after Arius.”

Anyone who departs from the Catholic Faith in the least degree, they have placed themselves outside the Catholic church, the rest of the members are not effected!

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9), June 29, 1896: “The practice of the Church has always been the same, and that with the consenting judgment [i.e. consensus] of the holy fathers who certainly were accustomed to hold as having no part of Catholic communion and as banished from the Church whoever had departed in even the least way from the doctrine proposed by the authentic Magisterium.”

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 9),  June 29, 1896: “No one who merely disbelieves in all these (heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one.  For there may be or arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and if anyone holds to a single one of these he is not a Catholic.”

Indefectibility of the Catholic church is found in the faithful remnant.  Jesus said that his words i.e. the catholic faith, would not pass away. Jesus promised that He will be with His church, the remnant, even to the consummation of the world.

2 John 1:2 For the sake of the truth which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

The gates of hell are heretics, liars.

Pope Vigilius, Second Council of Constantinople, 553: “... we bear in mind what was promised about the holy Church and Him who said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it (by these we understand the death-dealing tongues of heretics)...”

Pope St. Leo IX, Sept. 2, 1053: “The holy Church built upon a rock, that is Christ, and upon Peter... because by the gates of Hell, that is, by the disputations of heretics which lead the vain to destruction, it would never be overcome.”

Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”

[Isaias]

Rom 5:12-19 is not about personal sin but original sin. The fall from grace that Adam's fall inflicted on all mankind.

Verses 15-19
For if many died through one man's trespass.... For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation,.... because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man..... as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men..... For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners....

Paul is contrasting the effect of Adam's fall on mankind (death) to the effect of Christ restoring grace (life).
If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (vs 17)

Adam and Eve were created immaculate and perfect before the fall.  And in order for Jesus to take flesh from Mary, she would have to be without original sin.  God has no part with sin or corruption.

Genesis 1:26-27,31 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: …  And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. …And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

[winsome]

Adam and Eve were created immaculate and perfect before the fall.  And in order for Jesus to take flesh from Mary, she would have to be without original sin.  God has no part with sin or corruption.

Genesis 1:26-27,31 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: …  And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. …And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

WOW! Something we agree on.

[Alan]

WOW! Something we agree on.

And in contrast, something I disagree on.  Mary was 100% human, just like you or I. Jesus 100% human nature had the ability to sin but did not, He resisted all temptation.

[winsome]

And in contrast, something I disagree on.  Mary was 100% human, just like you or I. Jesus 100% human nature had the ability to sin but did not, He resisted all temptation.

Mary had the ability to sin, as did Adam and Eve.

[Alan]

Mary had the ability to sin, as did Adam and Eve.

How can you be certain she lived her life sinless? Who was she prior to becoming pregnant with Jesus?

[winsome]

How can you be certain she lived her life sinless? Who was she prior to becoming pregnant with Jesus?

 We believe by faith, but a faith based on reason, Scripture and Tradition
 Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.
 
“His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.” (2Pet 1:3-4).
 
This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.
 “Be holy because I am holy”.
How holy is God? – 100%

“Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect”
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%

We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.

When Gabriel greeted Mary he said Chaire Ketcharitomen, which is often badly translated as Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace.  The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
 
  "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.
 
She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?
 
As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).
 
As Mary herself said “he who is mighty has done great things for me” (Lk 1:49)
 
The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary’s womb. Thus the anti-type was incorruptible.
 
Moreover Jude says: Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) Why would Jesus not keep his mother from falling and to present her without blemish before the presence of his glory?
 
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam.  Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin"  (Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118 22::30; c. 387 AD).

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?--so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (St. Augustine Nature and Grace 36:45, c. 415 AD).

[Alan]

Thank you winsome, appreciated.

[Isaias]

WOW! Something we agree on.

You imply that there are things that you and I disagree on.  I am very curious to know what that is?  Please use cites to support you claims, not just opinion.

[winsome]

You imply that there are things that you and I disagree on.  I am very curious to know what that is?  Please use cites to support you claims, not just opinion.

Do we agree that Pope Francis is the legitimate successor of St. Peter and the Head of the Catholic Church on earth?

Or do you believe, as the website you keep pushing claims, he is an apostate and an Antipope?

[Isaias]

Do we agree that Pope Francis is the legitimate successor of St. Peter and the Head of the Catholic Church on earth?

Or do you believe, as the website you keep pushing claims, he is an apostate and an Antipope?

I asked you on another thread, "Do you consider yourself Catholic"?

[winsome]

I asked you on another thread, "Do you consider yourself Catholic"?

Ah yes, another typical Protestant response. Don't answer questions, only Catholics have to do that!

[Isaias]

Ah yes, another typical Protestant response. Don't answer questions, only Catholics have to do that!

Trust me I am going to answer, but for the record, are you catholic?

[winsome]

Trust me I am going to answer, but for the record, are you catholic?

I've answered that in another thread.

And no, I won't trust you. You are slippery and evasive.

[KiwiChristian]

church fathers? yawn.

The bigger-than-life Mary of Roman Catholicism is a FALSE portrayal of the Biblical Mary (the Bible never portrays Mary as being anything more than a godly woman used by God).

[chosenone]

I have yet to see one Bible verse that supports all of your personal heretical beliefs Isaias.

[Isaias]

If you read the Bible... you see ... it's not what she did that caused her to be called Blessed.  She clearly claimed it was what God did.

She is blessed because God chose her to bring forth His only begotten son.  She didn't do anything on her own to be called blessed for. Or to cause worship toward her. 

Again, if you read the Bible, you see that Jesus loved her, he did not magnify her or lift her up, or pray to her like He did His Father.  He taught others to pray to the Father, in the garden, he cried out to the Father, on the cross, He cried out to His Father...  after the resurrection, He went to the Father, He is seated with the Father.

Mary is not included in any of that.  He left her here with the other believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit, cared for by the other believers as the church should. Not worshipped or lifted up.  But, cared for.

You said that we worship Mary, we did not say that.  Its called veneration.  Who said that we say Mary is Blessed because of what she did.  She didn't.  Its because of God alone.

Luke 1:49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

We know that God saved her in a greater way, without original sin.  You say that God left Mary to be filled with the Holy Ghost and this is true.  And for one reason.  The Holy Ghost could not come on Pentecost Sunday, unless Mary was there in the upper room and this is because just as Jesus came through Mary, the Holy Ghost operates the same way.  And by the way, the last words of Jesus on the Holy Cross, was to Mary and John.  Jesus gave His mother to St. John and the world.  Jesus does not call John by name nor His mother but son and woman.  This is to let everyone know that all men must follow the same way Jesus took.  Jesus was devoted to Mary for 30 years, living with His mother.  With the exception of three years to preach the gospel, that is Jesus' whole life on earth!

John 14:6  Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25  I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.  In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue."

[AVZ]

You said that we worship Mary, we did not say that.  Its called veneration. 

What difference does it make. You have no business to venerate her either.

[Isaias]

What difference does it make. You have no business to venerate her either.

Do you respect anyone in your life on earth?

[KiwiChristian]

Do you respect anyone in your life on earth?

LOL. Key words here are "on earth".

Respect and veneration and worship are not the same.

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.” Doesn’t this sound like worship?


1) You are TOLD to pray to her in your ccc! ( CCC 2675, 2679 ).When we look in the Bible, we find that prayer is directed to God alone. There is not ONE example of a Christian addressing prayers to mary or the "saints", or to those who are dead. Not one. What you are doing is asking those who are physically not here and are unable to see or affect the affairs of mankind on earth to do what is attributed to God only.

Can we pray to Mary or other saints as we do to God? Can some person who is at the other end of the universe hear our prayers? Isn't this something that is exclusively reserved to God? How can a saint hear hundreds or thousands of prayers at one time? No matter how great a saint they were, they are not omniscient nor can they answer our prayers (it is a known fact there are more prayers offered to Mary than to God by Catholics). This is seen by the statement by Bishop Liqouri “We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus. She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help” (The Glories of Mary by Bishop Alphonse de Ligouri (Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, pp. 254, 257).