Virgin Mary....Church Fathers

[wincam]

it was indeed magical and romantic and she was not afraid as she herself said "my soul magnifies my Lord and my spirit rejoices and henceforth all [except Protestants of course]shall call me blessed just as the archangel on your behalf called me "blessed art thou"amongst women - a special woman to say the least imho and interpretation - wincam

[MeMyself]

it was indeed magical and romantic and she was not afraid as she herself said "my soul magnifies my Lord and my spirit rejoices and henceforth all [except Protestants of course]shall call me blessed just as the archangel on your behalf called me "blessed art thou"amongst women - a special woman to say the least imho and interpretation - wincam

Oh my gosh...

[chosenone]

It's not that Non-Catholics don't consider her blessed, we just don't make her into an idol like the Roman Church does.

Yep.

[LexKnight]

it was indeed magical and romantic and she was not afraid as she herself said "my soul magnifies my Lord and my spirit rejoices and henceforth all [except Protestants of course]shall call me blessed just as the archangel on your behalf called me "blessed art thou"amongst women - a special woman to say the least imho and interpretation - wincam

Myself is right.. Dude, let me ask you. If you were a chick, most likely a 14 year old, and you encounter an entity with awesome glory (I mean awesome in the sense that it's so powerful it gives you dread and great fear, like David seeing the giant Angel over Jerusalem), and this entity of God informs you that you have been chosen to bear the Son of God Himself, how exactly would you react? Would you immediately be overjoyed and be singing praises and Casting Crown songs? I doubt that...

She was surely afraid, there is a reason angels always say "Fear not," they know what their presence does to us who are not used to that stuff. That alone would bring ya to awe, but to hear that you're to be the vessel that would bring the Son of God into the world? My pants would probably be brown, and my body soaked in sweat.

She was blessed, but seriously can we stop making her into something more than she actually was? She wouldn't appreciate it, and the Lord doesn't appreciate it.

[wincam]

It's not that Non-Catholics don't consider her blessed, we just don't make her into an idol like the Roman Church does.

Yep.

you may not but should since God did - go tell God HE got it all wrong just to annoy Protestants and favour Catholics - wincam

[wincam]

hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam

Due to science, I guess.  God isn't going to repeat the deal though.  Jesus is His only begotten Son.

and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam

[skeeter]

hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam

Due to science, I guess.  God isn't going to repeat the deal though.  Jesus is His only begotten Son.

and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam

no,  just her first.

[MeMyself]

hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam

Due to science, I guess.  God isn't going to repeat the deal though.  Jesus is His only begotten Son.

and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam

Ah, read this wrong the first time

Jesus had bothers.  Sorry you refuse to believe that.

Though...

it doesn't change anything about who Mary was or what she did to acknowledge that fact.

She was a married woman and after she gave birth to Jesus, acted like one.

No harm, no foul, no sin, no shame.

[wincam]

hope I haven't got it wrong but now it seems it is possible to conceive without having sex - wincam

Due to science, I guess.  God isn't going to repeat the deal though.  Jesus is His only begotten Son.

and lest we forget Mary's only son - wincam

no,  just her first.
[/


no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

[skeeter]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

[wincam]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

[chosenone]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

yes because its what God teaches us. 

[wincam]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

yes because its what God teaches us.

not really - you can't be serious - wincam

[chosenone]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

yes because its what God teaches us.

not really - you can't be serious - wincam

  The Bible says that Mary and Joseph had sex like any other couple and that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Loads of verses have been posted which show this.

[wincam]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

yes because its what God teaches us.

not really - you can't be serious - wincam

  The Bible says that Mary and Joseph had sex like any other couple and that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Loads of verses have been posted which show this.

no no it is you and other Protestants that say so by adding and subtracting which the Bible says you should not do - wincam

[MeMyself]

no no it is you and other Protestants that say so by adding and subtracting which the Bible says you should not do - wincam

Luke 8:19 Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd.

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.

Mark 3:31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him.

Luke 8:20 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."

and to take away the silly argument that "brothers" means friends and not blood relatives that came from his earthly parents:

Luke 8:21  He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

here He makes the distinguished difference for us. Brothers are now not just those who were carried by His mother, but those that obey and are included in the family of God.

[chosenone]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

yes because its what God teaches us.

not really - you can't be serious - wincam

  The Bible says that Mary and Joseph had sex like any other couple and that Jesus had brothers and sisters. Loads of verses have been posted which show this.

no no it is you and other Protestants that say so by adding and subtracting which the Bible says you should not do - wincam

Its the RC church that adds to the Bible and ignore the bits it doesnt like. All that has been quoted here from the Bible  says that Mary and joseph had sex after Jesus was born(quoted loads of times)and had children. 

[Josiah]

WHICH Tradition? 
RCC's?  Before 600 AD, after 600 AD,  after 1950? 
EOC's (which has no dogma of the Immaculate Conception or Co-Redeemer, etc.)?
Anglican Tradition?
Lutheran Confessions?
Reformed Tradition?

WHICH?


Why not accept Scripture instead?   Or perhaps Jesus and the Apostles rather than the "Tradition" of one single, individual denomination (the RCC) since 1950?


Questions I hope you'll answer.....



- Josiah

[skeeter]

no just her firstborn and no others - btw we are told that each year without fail she journeyed to Jerusalem - well planned was it - wincam

what? why?

can you see why some think you are a troll?  can you plz post in a complete thought / sentence so people know what you are talking about or asking?

of course, naturally and understandingly difficult for you to latch on to or follow since without batting an eyelid you accept she had many other children all younger than Jesus of course - wincam

the difficulty in understanding or following is because of your posting of incomplete sentences and / or thoughts. 

I never even considered thinking or challenging that Mary had other children because the Bible says she did.  Of course, I also didn't have any clue on that until I started reading/studying the Bible in my late 20s.  I was raised Catholic - not to ask questions or question what the 'Church' told me to believe.

Considering that Mary was a virgin  when she conceived Jesus, then yes, all other children were younger than Jesus.  By nature that would be true.

It was far beyond my thinking to question that she never had a physical side to her marriage to Joseph.  That is inconsistent with the RCC anyway.  Joseph would have been able to get an annulment in that case.

How can the  RCC honestly hold both views? marriage is to have children on 1 hand and then on the other, not for Mary in her marriage.

[wincam]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

[skeeter]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

do you think it holds some secret meaning?  Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus.   Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?

[Alan]

Certainly would have been difficult for Joseph to remain celibate throughout their marriage.

[LexKnight]

Personally, if it's revealed to me that my fiancee is pregnant with a child given to her by God and I'm called to continue with the marriage, I would do so and respect her enough to wait until the child is conceived. But afterwards... I'd be expecting to get intimate with my wife. If she refused, I wouldn't be able to continue in the marriage. Considering a marriage is considered a marriage when the 2 consummate it physically, I couldn't consider her my wife if I can't be intimate with her. I can't see the Lord restricting him in that.

[Josiah]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

EXACTLY!   Not a word about Mary being a PERPETUAL virgin.   NOTHING in Scripture says so..... NOTHING known from Mary says so...... NOTHING from Joseph says so (the only two who likely would know if this is true)..... NOTHING from Jesus says so... NOTHING from any of the 12 to 14 Apostles says so..... NOTHING from anyone who had personally met Mary or Joseph says so.


And yes, the ORIGINAL tradition appears to be respectful SILENCE.....  That appears to be the "Tradition" of Scripture, of Mary, of Joseph, of Jesus, of all the Apostles, of all the people in the First Century...... SILENCE.  Just like the respectful people here are silent about the "marriage bed" of all the mothers here.   The official position of the 49,998 of the 50,000 denominations some Catholic claim to exist:  SILENCE (the same  position as Scripture, as Mary, as Joseph, as Jesus, as the Apostles, as ALL who lived in the First Century,  as all here are about the "marriage bed" of all the people here:  SILENCE), only 2 of those denominations insist on SHOUTING - as DOGMA - the private sex life of this women they CLAIM to respect and then ADMIT they have NOTHING - absolutely NOTHING - to support this profoundly personal tidbit of bedroom information as true (nor do they same to give a rip whether it's true).



Pax



- Josiah

[kensington]

Good point.

[wincam]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

do you think it holds some secret meaning?  Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus.   Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?

Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam

[skeeter]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

do you think it holds some secret meaning?  Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus.   Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?

Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam

so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven?  I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him -  He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it.  Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?

Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly?  (prior to the time of His ministry)

'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off.  Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)

[wincam]

note very carefully what it says at Lk.2:41 - wincam

do you think it holds some secret meaning?  Joseph was known on earth as the earthly father of Jesus.   Or do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus went around loudly proclaiming that God was His natural father?

Jesus most certainly did - it seems that Joseph and Mary and many others were advised not to do so openly but allow each and all to discover and admit this for themselves - even His brethren it seems were not told but thought He was mad and tried to restrain Him - wincam

so you've had some revelation that Jesus - as a child growing up - boasted about His Father in heaven?  I only remember 1 incident when Mary and Joseph lost track of Him -  He spoke of it to Mary and Joseph who already knew about it.  Maybe you remember more times He spoke of it?

Who are the 'many others' who knew and were advised not to speak of it openly?  (prior to the time of His ministry)

'His brethern' - His brothers most likely knew nothing about it and that probably added to them thinking He was a bit off.  Do you think Mary and Joseph told their other kids how different and special Jesus was? (and they weren't)

who added [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam

[skeeter]

who added [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam

I did.

[wincam]

who added [prior to the time of His ministry] - wincam

I did.

I did not - wincam

[Jsta Babbler]

John 2:13
And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves,
and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords,
he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen;
and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves,
Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written,
The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Now where do we find that
"The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."

Psalms 69:7
7 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach;
shame hath covered my face.

8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren,
and an alien unto my mother's children.

9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up;
and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

AV - mother 214, dam 5, parting 1; 220
 1) mother
 1a) of humans
 2) of the same womb

"and an alien unto my mother's children"
____________________________________________ _________________________
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling,
and to present you faultless
before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
To the only wise God our Saviour,
be glory and majesty, dominion and power,
both now and ever. Amen.
 

[mclees8]

of course if they were her other children she would have prevented them from thinking Jesus was beside Himself and mad and tried to restrain and as good brothers and sisters got together to bury Him and rehouse their mother - give over and come home now - wincam

    Could you answer the question I asked         

[Jsta Babbler]

Matt.13:33
Another parable spake he unto them;

The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
which a woman took,
and hid in three measures of meal,
till the whole was leavened.


    Hosea 7:4
    They are all adulterers, as an oven heated by the baker,
    who ceaseth from raising after he hath kneaded the dough,
    until it be leavened.


Leaven Puffs up, because it fermenates; it's a spoiler
bread baked with yeast, leaven will mold,
unleavened Bread won't

I don't know how many saw how closely,
the words of Paul - Parallels of the words of Christ

    Matt.13:33
    Another parable spake he unto them;
    The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven,
    which a woman took,
    and hid in three measures of meal,
    (or will be leavened  / infiltrated by)
    till the whole was leavened.

    1Cor.5:6
    Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

[wincam]

Jesus it seems had no such problem - of course there have been eunuchs for God's sake and the angel could easily have tinkered as He did when Elizabeth;s husband was struck dumb - wincam

[Tertullian]

via google see [Virgin Mary/Church Fathers] - should we accept Tradition and early Church Fathers or much latter day reformers - wincam

The Bible comes before Church Fathers and later Reformers.  But, did the Church Fathers really teach Mary remained a virgin?  Do you have any reliable testimony from before the 4th century?