GCM Home | Your Posts | Rules | DONATE | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter | FAQs


Author Topic: What determines correct interpretations?  (Read 17435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Memphis Dwight

  • Guest
What determines correct interpretations?
« on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 10:45:38 »
Is it just me or does it seem like whenever doctrine
is being discussed, there is this idea that the correct
doctrine is the one with the most vocal cheerleading section?

If two doctrines are at odds with each other, then just because several posters come along and say AMEN when one of those doctrines is being mentioned, that does not make a particular teaching the right one.  Or does it? 

Christian Forums and Message Board

What determines correct interpretations?
« on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 10:45:38 »

Offline free-in-Christ

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Manna: 2
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:06:56 »
Hello Memphis Dwight

You asked........
“Is it just me or does it seem like whenever doctrine
is being discussed, there is this idea that the correct
doctrine is the one with the most vocal cheerleading section?

If two doctrines are at odds with each other, then just because several posters come along and say AMEN when one of those doctrines is being mentioned, that does not make a particular teaching the right one.  Or does it?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:06:56 »

Offline Lively Stone

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17265
  • Manna: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:09:50 »
Hello Memphis Dwight

You asked........
“Is it just me or does it seem like whenever doctrine
is being discussed, there is this idea that the correct
doctrine is the one with the most vocal cheerleading section?

If two doctrines are at odds with each other, then just because several posters come along and say AMEN when one of those doctrines is being mentioned, that does not make a particular teaching the right one.  Or does it?

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:12:37 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:12:37 »

Offline Lively Stone

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17265
  • Manna: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:14:33 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

No, the written word of God is our only authority beside the Holy Spirit who is the Revelator.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #4 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:14:33 »



Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #5 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:21:51 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

No, the written word of God is our only authority beside the Holy Spirit who is the Revelator.

Who says?  Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, I believe.  What you say is not in the Bible, nor in Sacred Tradition.  So who says?

larry2

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #6 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:25:25 »
You're correct, and for a real taste of that mindset give the politics section a whirl.

Offline Lively Stone

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17265
  • Manna: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #7 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:29:02 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

No, the written word of God is our only authority beside the Holy Spirit who is the Revelator.

Who says?  Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, I believe.  What you say is not in the Bible, nor in Sacred Tradition.  So who says?

As Scripture has always been the authority before Christ, it continues after Christ. Certainly no person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine, but the Bible itself. Every Christian person in the world is given spiritual understanding by Holy Spirit, and that includes those members of the so-called Magisterium who know Jesus as their personal Saviour. They are no different than you or me.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #8 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:47:49 »

Who says?  Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, I believe.  What you say is not in the Bible, nor in Sacred Tradition.  So who says?


Choose for yourself - do we believe the word of God or man? The following scripture should put an end to such garbage as the Mormons preach.

Colossians 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (complete or end it) the word of God

Galatians 1:8  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 
The book of Mormon

2 Nephi 29:3 . . . many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.

2 Nephi 29:9 . . . because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

2 Nephi 29:10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #9 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 12:50:51 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

No, the written word of God is our only authority beside the Holy Spirit who is the Revelator.

Who says?  Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, I believe.  What you say is not in the Bible, nor in Sacred Tradition.  So who says?

As Scripture has always been the authority before Christ, it continues after Christ. Certainly no person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine, but the Bible itself. Every Christian person in the world is given spiritual understanding by Holy Spirit, and that includes those members of the so-called Magisterium who know Jesus as their personal Saviour. They are no different than you or me.

How do you know which books are scripture?  Who decided?

No person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine?  Then there is no truth because it is every man for himself.  The Holy Spirit gives correct spiritual understanding to each and every person?  Not only is that naive in practice, but who says?  That idea is not found in scripture, and rightly so, because it doesn't take a terribly rational analysis to realize that, in this world, it is not so.  I think the fact that this thread was even started is a testament to that.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:50:31 by Catholica »

blu

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #10 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:23:07 »
Is it just me or does it seem like whenever doctrine
is being discussed, there is this idea that the correct
doctrine is the one with the most vocal cheerleading section?

If two doctrines are at odds with each other, then just because several posters come along and say AMEN when one of those doctrines is being mentioned, that does not make a particular teaching the right one.  Or does it? 

No. If you find two conflicting doctrines, then go to the bible and find the true solution. The bible is the word of God, not the church doctrine.

Offline Beta

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2140
  • Manna: 126
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #11 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:10:14 »
It appears that all agree on the 'Holy Spirit' being the 'leading agent in a 'christians life.
Just 'claiming to have the HS does not make that a true fact - because most forget that there are 2 groups of Christians :
the true and the false or deceived.
Jesus himself 'warned of 'deception Mat.24v4,5,11.
Also Rev.12v9 says 'the whole world is deceived. Also scripture says it is the 'MANY' who are on the road to destruction. All keep similar nonbiblical observances - who then can be right ?

Yet NO 'Christians ever mention those scriptures .
They are swept under the carpet as is the most important of WHO is given the Holy Spirit Acts 5v32. It comes down to 'OBEDIENCE which is so obviously lacking in this world and sadly also in Christianity.
Why does Jesus say in Lk.6v46 : And why call ye me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say ?
Could he say that if those who call him 'Lord were 'obedient ?

I think it is high time christians were honest with themselves instead of looking for excuses not to obey God's Commandments.
To 'claim (take to oneself) the HS when one is 'disobedient has to be 'sin ?

Offline gospel

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11884
  • Manna: 638
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #12 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:21:15 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

No, the written word of God is our only authority beside the Holy Spirit who is the Revelator.

Who says?  Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, I believe.  What you say is not in the Bible, nor in Sacred Tradition.  So who says?

As Scripture has always been the authority before Christ, it continues after Christ. Certainly no person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine, but the Bible itself. Every Christian person in the world is given spiritual understanding by Holy Spirit, and that includes those members of the so-called Magisterium who know Jesus as their personal Saviour. They are no different than you or me.

How do you know which books are scripture?  Who decided?

No person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine?  Then there is no truth because it is every man for himself.  The Holy Spirit gives correct spiritual understanding to each and every person?  Not only is that naive in practice, but who says?  That idea is not found in scripture, and rightly so, because it doesn't take a terribly rational analysis to realize that, in this world, it is not so.  I think the fact that this thread was even started is a testament to that.


Those who have the Holy Spirit agree.....and thank God!

His Truth is Marching On and not the confusion you have described!

As we speak our brothers in Christ are dying in Egypt because of their Faith in Christ because they agree with the same Holy Spirit who has baptized them into the Body of Believers as He baptized us.

They too are in agreement with The Word of God which says that

Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life

If you agree with that, it is only because the same Holy Spirit in you is the same Holy Spirit in me
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:28:32 by gospel »

Offline Lively Stone

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17265
  • Manna: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #13 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 14:25:57 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

No, the written word of God is our only authority beside the Holy Spirit who is the Revelator.

Who says?  Public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, I believe.  What you say is not in the Bible, nor in Sacred Tradition.  So who says?

As Scripture has always been the authority before Christ, it continues after Christ. Certainly no person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine, but the Bible itself. Every Christian person in the world is given spiritual understanding by Holy Spirit, and that includes those members of the so-called Magisterium who know Jesus as their personal Saviour. They are no different than you or me.

How do you know which books are scripture?  Who decided?

No person or group of persons can be the authority on Biblical doctrine?  Then there is no truth because it is every man for himself.  The Holy Spirit gives correct spiritual understanding to each and every person?  Not only is that naive in practice, but who says?  That idea is not found in scripture, and rightly so, because it doesn't take a terribly rational analysis to realize that, in this world, it is not so.  I think the fact that this thread was even started is a testament to that.

Men so directed by God Himself, and in agreement together have determined what is holy writ. That is a miracle wrought by God.

Holy Spirit does give correct interpretation and understanding to all men, provided they hear correctly---and heed Him as well. The flesh is notorious for getting in the way.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 19:22:11 by Lively Stone »

Offline Talking Donkey

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1485
  • Manna: 55
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #14 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:03:03 »
Isa 8:20 To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Jn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

We will be judged by the written word, not by man's traditions that go against the word of God.  The word of God says to wash our faces to hide we are fasting, Rome says: Put on the black mark of Ash Wednesday on your face, the total opposite of what the Bible says, to announce to the world, you are fasting.

Mat 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Peace

Offline free-in-Christ

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Manna: 2
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #15 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:17:25 »
Any Catholic that hasn’t been totally deceived, can see the truth in the Bible, if they would just look..........

God says don’t call the priest “father

Offline EDEN2004

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1235
  • Manna: 20
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #16 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 20:23:56 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

So what verses do you get that from?

M Gold

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #17 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 20:33:35 »
Whoever says they have the "Rhema Word" gets to be the "decider" of what is the correct interpretation of scripture.

Sometimes, multiple folks who claim to have the "Rhema Word" disagree with each other, but I digress...

HRoberson

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #18 on: Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 21:58:49 »
Actually, if you will just submit your questions to me, I'd be happy to provide the answer.

Fair warning though: there's a lot of stuff we like to debate that simply doesn't make any difference.

That may well be the answer you get to any number of questions.

If you want to know if you're saved, you will have to send me $500 to get the answer, and provide me the answer to three or four questions.

Hey, get over it.

daq

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #19 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 05:54:37 »
The Scripture interprets itself and does not need any man to decide or add his opinionated interpretation. This is a large part of what being a disciple is really all about, which is forcing our own doctrines, and the doctrines we have been taught, into conformity with the truth as we learn along the Way. The Scripture is given in PERFECTION but only in the two languages in which it was transmitted and handed down, (actually three because there are scant portions of Aramaic along with Daniel chapters 2-7). Therefore a true disciple will begin to speak "THE TONGUES" and sorry to inform the lovers and worshippers of English but the English language is not one of those tongues:

Acts 19:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Greek)
6.  Kai epithentos autois tou Paulou tas cheiras elthe to Pneuma to Hagion ep autous, elaloun te glossais kai eprofeteuon.
6.  And when Paul had laid his hands on them, came the Holy Ghost upon them; and they spake BOTH TONGUES, and prophesied.

Acts 19:6 Strongs Ref.#s
6.
   |2532| And
   |2007| laying on
   |0846| them
   |3588| the
   |3972| Paulos
   |3588| of the
   |5495| hands,
   |2064| came
   |3588| the
   |4151| Spirit
   |3588| the
   |0040| Holy
   |1909| upon
   |0846| them.
   |2980| they spoke
   |5037| BOTH
   |1100| tongues - languages
   |2532| and
   |4395| prophesied.


Original Strong's Ref. #5037
Romanized  te
Pronounced teh
a primary particle (enclitic) of connection or addition; both or also (properly, as correlation of GSN2532):
KJV--also, and, both, even, then, whether. Often used in composition, usually as the latter part.

If anyone understands this then he or she also should understand that I just spoke to you in one of those tongues, the Greek, (and is done all over these forums by others as well). The one of a "cloven tongue" understands also the Hebrew and therefore is "whole" in this area if indeed led by the Spirit.

John 20:15-16 KJV
15.  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16.  Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.


However, the Greek tells a different story of what happened to Mary:

John 20:11 TUA
11.  Maria de heistekei pros to mnemeio exoklaiousa.  Hos oun eklaien, parekupsen eis to mnemeion.
11.  But Maria stood toward the tomb weeping: As then she wept, she leaned into the tomb.

John 20:16 TUA
16.  Legei aute Iesous, @"Mariam!"^ Strafeisa ekeine legei auto Hebraisti, "Rabbouni (holegetai Didaskale)!"
16.  Saith unto her Yeshua: "Mariam!" Converted, this one says to him in Aramaic-Hebrew: "Rabboni!" (which is to say: Master-Teacher!).


Suddenly "Maria" becomes "Mariam" so named (new name) by the Master at this, the appointed time of her conversion, and her eyes are opened, and she recognizes Yeshua, and suddenly she responds in the Hebrew-Aramaic tongue. And though her conversion is instantaneous her BAPTISM into the Word was not because Mary had been following Yeshua around, before the Cross, sitting at his feet and hearing his doctrine:

Luke 10:38-39 KJV
38.  Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
39.  And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 06:24:30 by daq »

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #20 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 06:53:25 »
The Scripture interprets itself and does not need any man to decide or add his opinionated interpretation. This is a large part of what being a disciple is really all about, which is forcing our own doctrines, and the doctrines we have been taught, into conformity with the truth as we learn along the Way. The Scripture is given in PERFECTION but only in the two languages in which it was transmitted and handed down, (actually three because there are scant portions of Aramaic along with Daniel chapters 2-7). Therefore a true disciple will begin to speak "THE TONGUES" and sorry to inform the lovers and worshippers of English but the English language is not one of those tongues:

Acts 19:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Greek)
6.  Kai epithentos autois tou Paulou tas cheiras elthe to Pneuma to Hagion ep autous, elaloun te glossais kai eprofeteuon.
6.  And when Paul had laid his hands on them, came the Holy Ghost upon them; and they spake BOTH TONGUES, and prophesied.

Acts 19:6 Strongs Ref.#s
6.
   |2532| And
   |2007| laying on
   |0846| them
   |3588| the
   |3972| Paulos
   |3588| of the
   |5495| hands,
   |2064| came
   |3588| the
   |4151| Spirit
   |3588| the
   |0040| Holy
   |1909| upon
   |0846| them.
   |2980| they spoke
   |5037| BOTH
   |1100| tongues - languages
   |2532| and
   |4395| prophesied.


Original Strong's Ref. #5037
Romanized  te
Pronounced teh
a primary particle (enclitic) of connection or addition; both or also (properly, as correlation of GSN2532):
KJV--also, and, both, even, then, whether. Often used in composition, usually as the latter part.

If anyone understands this then he or she also should understand that I just spoke to you in one of those tongues, the Greek, (and is done all over these forums by others as well). The one of a "cloven tongue" understands also the Hebrew and therefore is "whole" in this area if indeed led by the Spirit.

I think you have overreached on this one.  In that verse the Greek word te is not an adjective modifying tongues as you seemed to have suggested.  That is, if I am reading you correctly, you are inferring that te is used as an adjective of the Greek word glossa to indicate that they spoke "both of the two tongues" and therefore there are only two of "THE TONGUES".  I think that is not grammatically correct.  As indicated in Strong's Ref #5037 it is a particle of connection not an adjective.  Therefore, the interpretation or the translation  of te should be in the sense of "they not only spoke in tongues but prophesied".  te connects the verbs "spoke" and "prophesied".

If the meaning of that passage were as you suggest, then the correct Greek word would have been amphoteros

G297
ἀμφότερος
amphoteros
am-fot'-er-os
Comparative of ἀμφί amphi (around); (in plural) both: - both.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #21 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 06:56:31 »
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit as promised by Christ, is the God-established authority on Earth for doctrinal issues.

For those who don't believe in its authority, there is no final arbiter, as you have correctly ascertained.

So what verses do you get that from?

Jesus said to the apostles:

John 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name — he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.

Jesus also granted ecclesiastical authority, the authority to "bind and loose", to the apostles:

Matt. 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Matt. 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
« Last Edit: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 07:23:57 by Catholica »

Offline Lively Stone

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17265
  • Manna: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #22 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 07:25:49 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #23 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 07:49:07 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

You and Catholica are both assuming an authority not given to anyone today.

daq

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #24 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:21:42 »
The Scripture interprets itself and does not need any man to decide or add his opinionated interpretation. This is a large part of what being a disciple is really all about, which is forcing our own doctrines, and the doctrines we have been taught, into conformity with the truth as we learn along the Way. The Scripture is given in PERFECTION but only in the two languages in which it was transmitted and handed down, (actually three because there are scant portions of Aramaic along with Daniel chapters 2-7). Therefore a true disciple will begin to speak "THE TONGUES" and sorry to inform the lovers and worshippers of English but the English language is not one of those tongues:

Acts 19:6 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Greek)
6.  Kai epithentos autois tou Paulou tas cheiras elthe to Pneuma to Hagion ep autous, elaloun te glossais kai eprofeteuon.
6.  And when Paul had laid his hands on them, came the Holy Ghost upon them; and they spake BOTH TONGUES, and prophesied.

Acts 19:6 Strongs Ref.#s
6.
   |2532| And
   |2007| laying on
   |0846| them
   |3588| the
   |3972| Paulos
   |3588| of the
   |5495| hands,
   |2064| came
   |3588| the
   |4151| Spirit
   |3588| the
   |0040| Holy
   |1909| upon
   |0846| them.
   |2980| they spoke
   |5037| BOTH
   |1100| tongues - languages
   |2532| and
   |4395| prophesied.


Original Strong's Ref. #5037
Romanized  te
Pronounced teh
a primary particle (enclitic) of connection or addition; both or also (properly, as correlation of GSN2532):
KJV--also, and, both, even, then, whether. Often used in composition, usually as the latter part.

If anyone understands this then he or she also should understand that I just spoke to you in one of those tongues, the Greek, (and is done all over these forums by others as well). The one of a "cloven tongue" understands also the Hebrew and therefore is "whole" in this area if indeed led by the Spirit.

I think you have overreached on this one.  In that verse the Greek word te is not an adjective modifying tongues as you seemed to have suggested.  That is, if I am reading you correctly, you are inferring that te is used as an adjective of the Greek word glossa to indicate that they spoke "both of the two tongues" and therefore there are only two of "THE TONGUES".  I think that is not grammatically correct.  As indicated in Strong's Ref #5037 it is a particle of connection not an adjective.  Therefore, the interpretation or the translation  of te should be in the sense of "they not only spoke in tongues but prophesied".  te connects the verbs "spoke" and "prophesied".

If the meaning of that passage were as you suggest, then the correct Greek word would have been amphoteros

G297
ἀμφότερος
amphoteros
am-fot'-er-os
Comparative of ἀμφί amphi (around); (in plural) both: - both.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

Yes there is a little intentional "overreaching" there to emphasize the point. I was not suggesting that there are ONLY two tongues because that is clearly not true from Acts 2, (and further back the tower of Babel, Mount Sinai-Horeb, the 72 elders, etc.,). However the KJV English "cloven" of Acts 2 is as the hooves of cattle: parted-divided in twain, and is correct. The primary "tongues" are those of the two main Covenants or Testaments. Punctuate it how you like: "they spake both tongues, and prophesied..." "they both spake the tongues and [also] prophesied..." etc., etc.. However, the comments were not just about tongues, the Revelation speaks of a "new name" written upon a white stone, given to those who overcome, Mary recieved a new name, (ever so slightly changed) even as Saul became Paul, Stephen to Stephanas, John surnamed Marcus, James and John the Sons of Thunder, etc., etc. Therefore GSN#4762 "strafeisa" (strepho) of John 20:16 quoted above is not "turned herself" but rather more like "she converted" in the sense of "about faced" repented-changed, (direction) and "that one" (the "newly converted Mary" - "strafeisa ekeine") suddenly recognized Christ because her spiritual eyes were opened, etc., etc.. These slight changes can make a great deal of difference in the understanding of the texts as you surely know.

Original Strong's Ref. #4762
Romanized  strepho
Pronounced stref'-o
strengthened from the base of GSN5157; to twist, i.e. turn quite around or reverse (literally or figuratively):
KJV--convert, turn (again, back again, self, self about).

Original Strong's Ref. #1565
Romanized  ekeinos
Pronounced ek-i'-nos
from GSN1563; that one (or [neuter] thing); often intensified by the art. prefixed:
KJV--he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those. See also GSN3778.

The same thing happens in Daniel: one "Daniel" continues unto the first year of king Cyrus. The "other Daniel" prospers in the reign of Darius and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian:

Daniel 1:21 KJV
21.  And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.

Daniel 6:28 KJV
28.  So this (Aramaic HSN#1836) Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.


And "this Daniel" is an intentional statement in the Aramaic ("THIS" was not something added by the English translators).

Original Strong's Ref. #1836
Romanized  den
Pronounced dane
(Aramaic) an orthographical variation of HSN1791; this:
KJV--[afore-]time, + after this manner, here [-after], one...another, such, there[-fore], these, this (matter), + thus, where[-fore], which.

What happened at the changing of the kingdoms? The "old man" Belshazzar was slain in the night that Daniel was converted.

etc., etc.,  ::smile::

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #25 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:32:50 »
Is it just me or does it seem like whenever doctrine
is being discussed, there is this idea that the correct
doctrine is the one with the most vocal cheerleading section?

If two doctrines are at odds with each other, then just because several posters come along and say AMEN when one of those doctrines is being mentioned, that does not make a particular teaching the right one.  Or does it? 

Yea I totally agree with you. Truth is relative to most people nowadays.

I personally follow in the steps of the Early Church, specifically the Book of Acts. I follow what the Apostolic leadership is revealed by God and leave everything else to peaceful debate.

Those who say he Bible is the final authority simply do not know what "authority" is or how the Early Church for centuries operated.

There are a few facts.

1. The Christian Church predates the New Testament epistles.

2. The original epistles were written to certain churches in certainareas.

3. The Christian Church was vast. The Apostle Thomas in india, St. Mark in Egypt, St. Peter and St. Paul in the Mediterranean. With this in mind the original epistles that consolidate to form the New Testament didn't reach some churches for centuries.

4. (And this is kind of the inescapable Truth of the matter) The Apostles never left us a list to form a Bible canon, as such the Chrstianity has NEVER been united in the accepatnce of a universal canon of Sacred Scripture.

The inspiration of the Holy Scriptures is undeiable and among Catholics the rejection of its divine revelation is an offense that results in excommunication. However this modern idea that Sacred Scripture is the only deposit of Truth and the the final authority in the Church is well kind of silly.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #26 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:56:16 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

Can any person can say to another, you are teaching heresy, and I declare you anathema?  No.

Besides, who says that what you say is even true?

« Last Edit: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:06:11 by Catholica »

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #27 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:05:49 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

You and Catholica are both assuming an authority not given to anyone today.

Who says that it has to be given directly to someone today?  It doesn't make any sense for the apostles to have had it and not their successors.  Are we awash forever without an infallible authority?  By the time the Bible was canonized, how did anyone even know what the gospel was?  

But then again, who says "the authority is not given to anyone today"?    

The Bible seems to say that Jesus will be with us always.

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Offline Jimmy

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14574
  • Manna: 294
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:22:54 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

You and Catholica are both assuming an authority not given to anyone today.

Who says that it has to be given directly to someone today?  It doesn't make any sense for the apostles to have had it and not their successors.  Are we awash forever without an infallible authority?  By the time the Bible was canonized, how did anyone even know what the gospel was?  

But then again, who says "the authority is not given to anyone today"?    

The Bible seems to say that Jesus will be with us always.

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:29:23 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

You and Catholica are both assuming an authority not given to anyone today.

Who says that it has to be given directly to someone today?  It doesn't make any sense for the apostles to have had it and not their successors.  Are we awash forever without an infallible authority?  By the time the Bible was canonized, how did anyone even know what the gospel was?  

But then again, who says "the authority is not given to anyone today"?    

The Bible seems to say that Jesus will be with us always.

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Offline Lively Stone

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17265
  • Manna: 513
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:32:59 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

You and Catholica are both assuming an authority not given to anyone today.

What are you talking about?

Memphis Dwight

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:34:26 »
Well I'm glad to see at least some discussion and awareness being generated.  This may lead to a better understanding of the bible being our final authority.  

Amo

  • Guest
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:37:36 »
Quote
John 16:13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,
John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name — he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.

I noticed you excluded and skipped the following verses in your quotes above concerning your assertion that the leadership of the Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit of God, and thus the real authority to determine truth.  Which scriptures themselves exclude the Church of Rome from that gift, and authority.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:15-24 (KJV)

The Catholic Church does not keep the commandments, or the words of Christ, and therefore also cannot have the Holy Spirit of God for discernment regarding the truth in relation to God's word.  They teach the breaking of the commandments, and contradict the words of Christ.  Thus He does not make His abode with them.


Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #33 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:41:32 »
We have the ability to bind and loose also, as disciples of Jesus Christ. There is no ecclesiastical authority apart from our own pastors and other leaders.

You and Catholica are both assuming an authority not given to anyone today.

Who says that it has to be given directly to someone today?  It doesn't make any sense for the apostles to have had it and not their successors.  Are we awash forever without an infallible authority?  By the time the Bible was canonized, how did anyone even know what the gospel was? 

But then again, who says "the authority is not given to anyone today"?   

The Bible seems to say that Jesus will be with us always.

Matthew 28
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Offline Catholica

  • Modal Globerator
  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6258
  • Manna: 174
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: What determines correct interpretations?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 10:42:29 »
Ah yes, Amo, but who determines the new testament understanding of the commandments?  The Catholic Church obeys the commandments in the spirit of the law, with a New Covenant understanding.  You can't say we don't follow the commandments, because who says that your understanding of the commandments in the New Covenant is correct?

 

     
anything