Author Topic: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?  (Read 59712 times)

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Offline chestertonrules

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When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« on: Thu Feb 17, 2011 - 15:16:30 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Offline Paulus

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 14:17:02 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

Offline LightHammer

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 14:18:48 »
What you're blaming us?

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 14:22:39 »

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 14:26:34 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

If you don't believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you aren't a faithful Catholic.

Nothing personal.

Offline Paulus

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:06:04 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

If you don't believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you aren't a faithful Catholic.

Nothing personal.

PLEASE QUOTE ONE QUOTE I HAVE MADE WHICH PROMPTS SUCH A QUESTION .

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:08:19 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

If you don't believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you aren't a faithful Catholic.

Nothing personal.

PLEASE QUOTE ONE QUOTE I HAVE MADE WHICH PROMPTS SUCH A QUESTION .


It wasn't a question, it was an observation.

Do you believe that the pope is the Vicar of Christ?
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:14:46 by chestertonrules »

Offline Josiah

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #7 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:11:20 »
.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 





.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #8 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:16:13 »
.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 





.


The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church.  The Church ruled with a single voice, and it still does.

You don't respect the authority of this voice.

Offline Paulus

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:18:30 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

If you don't believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you aren't a faithful Catholic.

Nothing personal.

PLEASE QUOTE ONE QUOTE I HAVE MADE WHICH PROMPTS SUCH A QUESTION .


It wasn't a question, it was an observation.



THEN WHAT PROMPTED THE OBSERVATION ?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 15:21:22 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

If you don't believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you aren't a faithful Catholic.

Nothing personal.

PLEASE QUOTE ONE QUOTE I HAVE MADE WHICH PROMPTS SUCH A QUESTION .


It wasn't a question, it was an observation.



THEN WHAT PROMPTED THE OBSERVATION ?

Your discomfort with the concept and defense of the Church's legitimate authority.

Offline zoonance

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 17:26:25 »
Is the RCC the legitimate authority over all christians or just those identified as being a member of the RCC?

Offline Josiah

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 21, 2011 - 17:32:41 »
.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 






.


The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church. 

I'm not familiar with the statement that the Christians there "listened" to the RC denomination or regarded that specific, singular, particular, unique denomination as infallible, unaccountable, exempt from the issue of truth, when it speaks God speaks.   They may have listened to the church, but I know of NOTHING that suggests they ever listened to the RC denomination - much less exclusively to it in quiet docilic submission to IT as unto God.





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Offline Paulus

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 05:13:24 »
1 John 4
 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Matt 18:17
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

WHEN CATHOLIC FORUM BEHAVES AS IF IT IS THE VOICE OF GOD .

If you don't believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ then you aren't a faithful Catholic.

Nothing personal.

PLEASE QUOTE ONE QUOTE I HAVE MADE WHICH PROMPTS SUCH A QUESTION .


It wasn't a question, it was an observation.



THEN WHAT PROMPTED THE OBSERVATION ?

Your discomfort with the concept and defense of the Church's legitimate authority.

PLEASE SPECIFY WHERE I HAVE SUCH DISCOMFORT .

I HAVE ASKED MORE THAN ONCE ON THIS AND OTHER THREADS ON CATHOLIC FORUM FOR MEMBERS TO BACK UP STATEMENTS MADE ABOUT ME .

NOT ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO IT . THEY JUST GIVE VAGUE QUOTES WHICH REALLY SAY NOTHING AND BEAR NO RELATION TO WHAT I HAVE SAID .

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 06:31:59 »
Is the RCC the legitimate authority over all christians or just those identified as being a member of the RCC?

Catholic teaching holds that all Christians subsist within the Catholic Church even if they are not in full communion.

The Church also teaches that non Catholic Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ.


Here's a good summary:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276




Offline mclees8

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 07:52:02 »
Is the RCC the legitimate authority over all christians or just those identified as being a member of the RCC?

Catholic teaching holds that all Christians subsist within the Catholic Church even if they are not in full communion.

The Church also teaches that non Catholic Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ.


Here's a good summary:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276





While reading this I could help but notice and i must ask is this an official statement.

Its sates the large communities became separated from full communion with the catholic church.

Is this where we get the comments made many times that those out side the the RCC are saved but lack the fullness.

This is not what the above statement says. What it is stating is that large communities of believers are not longer in fellowship with the RCC. It says nothing of anyone lacking the fullness of truth.

Offline mclees8

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 07:58:27 »

Im writing to fast and I am correcting my errors

While reading this I could not help but notice, and i must ask, is this an official statement?

Its states that large communities became separated from full communion with the catholic church. (RCC)

Is this where we get the comments made many times by Catholics that those out side the the RCC are saved but lack the fullness.

This is not what the above statement says. What it is stating is that large communities of believers are no longer in fellowship with the RCC. It says nothing of anyone lacking the fullness of truth, which is arrogant and condescending to say the least.


Offline Catholica

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 08:46:23 »

Im writing to fast and I am correcting my errors

While reading this I could not help but notice, and i must ask, is this an official statement?

Its states that large communities became separated from full communion with the catholic church. (RCC)

Is this where we get the comments made many times by Catholics that those out side the the RCC are saved but lack the fullness.

This is not what the above statement says. What it is stating is that large communities of believers are no longer in fellowship with the RCC. It says nothing of anyone lacking the fullness of truth, which is arrogant and condescending to say the least.



It does not say that those outside the RCC are saved, but that they can be saved.  But yes, this statement does say they lack the fullness of truth, and it is true, they do.  I can attest, being a convert to the RCC that it is true, they do lack the fullness.  And none of them even claim to have the fullness.

Quote
Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

Having the fullness of the truth does not mean that we know everything as if we were God.  The fullness of truth is just the fullness of revealed truth.  There are many things that the Church does not know, but it proclaims the fullness of the revelation that was given to it, the fullness that God decided to reveal to man.

Protestants would insist that the fullness of revelation is completely contained in the Bible, but we disagree.  We hold that the Bible is completely true, but we also retain the entire Old Testament that has been accepted by Christianity, the sacraments, Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority that was handed to the Church now called Catholic that was given by Christ.  This may sound arrogant to some, but I have found it to be true.  It is worth exploring with an open heart, testing what they say against what is written in your heart, and not the scars left by those who oppose it in your mind.  I was fortunate that I did not have to go through this scarring process, being a blank slate going in as an adult.  I think it is much harder for those hardened by Protestantism and other belief systems to see. (Acts 28:26-27)

Offline Josiah

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 09:37:09 »
.



.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 






.


The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church. 

I'm not familiar with the statement that the Christians there "listened" to the RC denomination or regarded that specific, singular, particular, unique denomination as infallible, unaccountable, exempt from the issue of truth, when it speaks God speaks.   They may have listened to the church, but I know of NOTHING that suggests they ever listened to the RC denomination - much less exclusively to it in quiet docilic submission to IT as unto God.  Could you supply that quote that indicate those Christians DID "listen" specificly, particularly and solely to the RCC denomination and regarded it as infallible, unaccountable, exempt from the issue of truthfulness and honesty, and whatever IT says is what Jesus says?   Thank you.

If it's a sin to not listen to the church, what church does the RCC listen to?





.

Offline Catholica

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 09:40:45 »
.



.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 






.


The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church. 

I'm not familiar with the statement that the Christians there "listened" to the RC denomination

They did.  They heard the words of the early Church and they rejoiced, they did not demand accountability or make some statement requiring them to "PROVE IT".  Very unlike your response, Josiah.

If it's a sin to not listen to the church, what church does the RCC listen to?

It is a sin to not listen to the Church, not because of the Church itself, but because Christ founded that Church and created it to carry on His gospel.  The RCC listened to Christ when they walked with him, and still faithfully carry forward his gospel message today.

Offline mclees8

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 11:48:13 »

Im writing to fast and I am correcting my errors

While reading this I could not help but notice, and i must ask, is this an official statement?

Its states that large communities became separated from full communion with the catholic church. (RCC)

Is this where we get the comments made many times by Catholics that those out side the the RCC are saved but lack the fullness.

This is not what the above statement says. What it is stating is that large communities of believers are no longer in fellowship with the RCC. It says nothing of anyone lacking the fullness of truth, which is arrogant and condescending to say the least.



It does not say that those outside the RCC are saved, but that they can be saved.  But yes, this statement does say they lack the fullness of truth, and it is true, they do.  I can attest, being a convert to the RCC that it is true, they do lack the fullness.  And none of them even claim to have the fullness.

Quote
Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

Having the fullness of the truth does not mean that we know everything as if we were God.  The fullness of truth is just the fullness of revealed truth.  There are many things that the Church does not know, but it proclaims the fullness of the revelation that was given to it, the fullness that God decided to reveal to man.

Protestants would insist that the fullness of revelation is completely contained in the Bible, but we disagree.  We hold that the Bible is completely true, but we also retain the entire Old Testament that has been accepted by Christianity, the sacraments, Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority that was handed to the Church now called Catholic that was given by Christ.  This may sound arrogant to some, but I have found it to be true.  It is worth exploring with an open heart, testing what they say against what is written in your heart, and not the scars left by those who oppose it in your mind.  I was fortunate that I did not have to go through this scarring process, being a blank slate going in as an adult.  I think it is much harder for those hardened by Protestantism and other belief systems to see. (Acts 28:26-27)



I cannot agree with you and this position is an assumed one that does not agree with scripture. He who believes upon Christ is of his church and he has the fullness of his grace. No believer is short changed in this.

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:15-17

Offline Catholica

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 11:59:27 »

Im writing to fast and I am correcting my errors

While reading this I could not help but notice, and i must ask, is this an official statement?

Its states that large communities became separated from full communion with the catholic church. (RCC)

Is this where we get the comments made many times by Catholics that those out side the the RCC are saved but lack the fullness.

This is not what the above statement says. What it is stating is that large communities of believers are no longer in fellowship with the RCC. It says nothing of anyone lacking the fullness of truth, which is arrogant and condescending to say the least.



It does not say that those outside the RCC are saved, but that they can be saved.  But yes, this statement does say they lack the fullness of truth, and it is true, they do.  I can attest, being a convert to the RCC that it is true, they do lack the fullness.  And none of them even claim to have the fullness.

Quote
Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

Having the fullness of the truth does not mean that we know everything as if we were God.  The fullness of truth is just the fullness of revealed truth.  There are many things that the Church does not know, but it proclaims the fullness of the revelation that was given to it, the fullness that God decided to reveal to man.

Protestants would insist that the fullness of revelation is completely contained in the Bible, but we disagree.  We hold that the Bible is completely true, but we also retain the entire Old Testament that has been accepted by Christianity, the sacraments, Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority that was handed to the Church now called Catholic that was given by Christ.  This may sound arrogant to some, but I have found it to be true.  It is worth exploring with an open heart, testing what they say against what is written in your heart, and not the scars left by those who oppose it in your mind.  I was fortunate that I did not have to go through this scarring process, being a blank slate going in as an adult.  I think it is much harder for those hardened by Protestantism and other belief systems to see. (Acts 28:26-27)

I cannot agree with you and this position is an assumed one that does not agree with scripture. He who believes upon Christ is of his church and he has the fullness of his grace. No believer is short changed in this.

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:15-17

If one claims that they "believe upon Christ" but do not in reality believe in everything that he actually taught (not even taking into account who is "right" for a moment) then does that person really "believe upon Christ"?  Or does he believe upon "a bunch of stuff that might be construed as taught by Christ but is unsure if that was what He really meant"?  I mean, Jesus IS the Truth.  If one believes in something that might not be the truth, but rather a lie, then he believes in partial truth plus partial lie.  Jesus is not partial truth, partial lie, but truth alone.

If one ends up believing in lies as truth, those lies will likely lead him farther away from Jesus.  That makes it much harder to find the narrow path and much easier to end up on the wide path that leads to destruction.

So I suppose one can interpret John 1 as meaning themselves, but I suppose that that would lead them open to whatever they decide to latch on to.  That is not how the truth is found, by each of us believing that we are somehow the recipient of all truth.  Jesus would not make it that hard, and that, I believe, is why he founded a Church with authority, so that even the un-learned among us could find the truth by obedience and not rely on their (sometimes lacking) intellect.  Anyone can be obedient, not all can be a pastor or theologian.

Offline Josiah

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 13:52:17 »

.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said.  






.


The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church.

I'm not familiar with the statement that the Christians there "listened" to the RC denomination


They did.  

Quote please...



Quote from: chestertonrules

If it's a sin to not listen to the church, what church does the RCC listen to?


It is a sin to not listen to the Church, not because of the Church itself, but because Christ founded that Church and created it to carry on His gospel.  The RCC listened to Christ when they walked with him, and still faithfully carry forward his gospel message today.


... you didn't answer the question.





.

Offline Paulus

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 14:02:15 »
.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 





.


 The Church ruled with a single voice, and it still does.

WHOSE VOICE IS THIS ?

I TRUST THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SAY THE POPE'S .

IF YOU DO YOU ARE PROMOTING A FALSE IDEA OF AUTHORITY IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND LEADING PEOPLE INTO A WRONG CONCEPT OF THE CHURCH .

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 15:47:19 »
.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said. 





.


 The Church ruled with a single voice, and it still does.

WHOSE VOICE IS THIS ?

I TRUST THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SAY THE POPE'S .

IF YOU DO YOU ARE PROMOTING A FALSE IDEA OF AUTHORITY IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND LEADING PEOPLE INTO A WRONG CONCEPT OF THE CHURCH .

The pope is the vicar of Christ. 

Are you sure that you are Catholic?

Lively Stone

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 15:52:29 »
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It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said.  





.

The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church.  The Church ruled with a single voice, and it still does.

You don't respect the authority of this voice.

Actually the Church listened to Jesus Christ, its head.  That is who we, who are the Church, follow, alone---Jesus Christ, the head, the cornerstone. It is HIS VOICE WE FOLLOW AND HEED. We are His sheep and we know His voice and WILL NOT follow another's.


John 10:1-15
 “I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2 But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.  4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice. 5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t know his voice.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 15:58:54 »
.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said.  





.

The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church.  The Church ruled with a single voice, and it still does.

You don't respect the authority of this voice.


Actually the Church listened to Jesus Christ, its head.  That is who we, who are the Church, follow, alone---Jesus Christ, the head, the cornerstone. It is HIS VOICE WE FOLLOW AND HEED. We are His sheep and we know His voice and WILL NOT follow another's.


Of course we listen to Jesus. 

Here's what he said to the leaders of the Church:


Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."


The Church leaders understood this God given authority:

1 John 4
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


The apostles and Church leaders recognized and exercised their God give authority:

Acts 15
22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter:

   The apostles and elders, your brothers,

   To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

   Greetings.

 24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

 

How is what Martin Luther different than what these unauthorized teachers did?

Offline Josiah

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #27 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 16:05:06 »

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."


1 John 4
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Thank you.   So, where's the quote that says that the Christians in Antioch listened to the RCC?  Much less to IT as infallible, unaccountable, exempt from the issue of Truth, whatever IT says is what God says?

And if it's a sin to not listen to the church, to what does the RCC listen? 


.

Lively Stone

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #28 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 16:07:45 »
We are the Church, the salt and the light in this world of darkness and ignorance. when we come to Christ and are baptized in the Holy Spirit's power, we are under His anointing to go and preach the Gospel to the world. We don't sit back and let what you consider the church do it for us. That is erroneous thinking and based on relgiosity and not the truth of the word of God as given to each of us--together.

We aren't to sit back and allow a church to spoon feed us and watch them do all the work of leading and preaching. We are all to be doing it, sharing the burden of the calling of Christ, His Great Commission made to every single disciple!

He takes on the job of the eager in spirit of teaching us and equipping us to do what He desires us to do to fulfill His calling. He authorizes each one of us who are called by His name!

Some of you need to break free of the thinking that the Church is an organization that has all the answers. We are the Church. Our answers are in Jesus! We are to consult Him and launch out in faith in Him!


Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #29 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 16:13:13 »
We are the Church, the salt and the light in this world of darkness and ignorance. when we come to Christ and are baptized in the Holy Spirit's power, we are under His anointing to go and preach the Gospel to the world. We don't sit back and let what you consider the church do it for us. That is erroneous thinking and based on relgiosity and not the truth of the word of God as given to each of us--together.

We aren't to sit back and allow a church to spoon feed us and watch them do all the work of leading and preaching. We are all to be doing it, sharing the burden of the calling of Christ, His Great Commission made to every single disciple!

He takes on the job of the eager in spirit of teaching us and equipping us to do what He desires us to do to fulfill His calling. He authorizes each one of us who are called by His name!

Some of you need to break free of the thinking that the Church is an organization that has all the answers. We are the Church. Our answers are in Jesus! We are to consult Him and launch out in faith in Him!




How do we discern the Truth when two people, say you and Jimmy, claim different truths about the faith?

Jesus gave us the answer.  We are to listen to the Church.

Christians can only listen to the Church to settle questions if we all agree about what the Church is.


Right?

Offline Catholica

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #30 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 16:13:39 »

.


It's never "okay" to reject accountability and stop listening to the church.  Which is one of the reasons I no longer have anything to do with the RCC.

Nor is it "okay" for self to claim all kinds of remarkable, egotistical, accountability-evading things from Jesus that clearly, Jesus never said.  






.


The Christians in Antioch listened to the Church.

I'm not familiar with the statement that the Christians there "listened" to the RC denomination


They did.  They heard the words of the early Church and they rejoiced, they did not demand accountability or make some statement requiring them to "PROVE IT".  Very unlike your response, Josiah.

Quote please...

Acts 15
30  And so they were sent on their journey. Upon their arrival in Antioch they called the assembly together and delivered the letter.
31 When the people read it, they were delighted with the exhortation.


Quote from: chestertonrules

If it's a sin to not listen to the church, what church does the RCC listen to?


It is a sin to not listen to the Church, not because of the Church itself, but because Christ founded that Church and created it to carry on His gospel.  The RCC listened to Christ when they walked with him, and still faithfully carry forward his gospel message today.

... you didn't answer the question.

The early Church.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #31 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 16:41:40 »
I think Paulus is referring to the fact that it is God's voice the Church hears. Not the Pope's or the College's. Yes they are the vocal point but the point of all their works and the works of true faithful protestant Christians and the forefathers of our past is to point not to themselves but the God. We shouldn't be disputing the points of non salvation necessary doctrine to the point of such animus because at the end of the day it is the purpose of all the Faithful to glorify God and as long as we are united on that front there's no point to be arguing.

Am I about right Big Brother?

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #32 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 17:22:50 »
I think Paulus is referring to the fact that it is God's voice the Church hears. Not the Pope's or the College's. Yes they are the vocal point but the point of all their works and the works of true faithful protestant Christians and the forefathers of our past is to point not to themselves but the God. We shouldn't be disputing the points of non salvation necessary doctrine to the point of such animus because at the end of the day it is the purpose of all the Faithful to glorify God and as long as we are united on that front there's no point to be arguing.

Am I about right Big Brother?

I believe the question is "what is God's primary method for conveying Truth to his people on earth?"

If there is no central authority, then we are left with competing interpretations of scripture and Christian history.

Catholics believe that the Church is this central authority.


If Paulus doesn't believe that this authority is the Catholic Church then he shouldn't call himself Catholic, IMO.

Lively Stone

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #33 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 17:33:22 »
We are the Church, the salt and the light in this world of darkness and ignorance. when we come to Christ and are baptized in the Holy Spirit's power, we are under His anointing to go and preach the Gospel to the world. We don't sit back and let what you consider the church do it for us. That is erroneous thinking and based on relgiosity and not the truth of the word of God as given to each of us--together.

We aren't to sit back and allow a church to spoon feed us and watch them do all the work of leading and preaching. We are all to be doing it, sharing the burden of the calling of Christ, His Great Commission made to every single disciple!

He takes on the job of the eager in spirit of teaching us and equipping us to do what He desires us to do to fulfill His calling. He authorizes each one of us who are called by His name!

Some of you need to break free of the thinking that the Church is an organization that has all the answers. We are the Church. Our answers are in Jesus! We are to consult Him and launch out in faith in Him!




How do we discern the Truth when two people, say you and Jimmy, claim different truths about the faith?

Jesus gave us the answer.  We are to listen to the Church.

Christians can only listen to the Church to settle questions if we all agree about what the Church is.


Right?

Jesus wants us to heed Him alone. We heed our leaders in the local churches which God provides for us, but there is no central church organization of believers on earth. NONE.

Offline chestertonrules

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Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #34 on: Tue Feb 22, 2011 - 17:40:23 »
We are the Church, the salt and the light in this world of darkness and ignorance. when we come to Christ and are baptized in the Holy Spirit's power, we are under His anointing to go and preach the Gospel to the world. We don't sit back and let what you consider the church do it for us. That is erroneous thinking and based on relgiosity and not the truth of the word of God as given to each of us--together.

We aren't to sit back and allow a church to spoon feed us and watch them do all the work of leading and preaching. We are all to be doing it, sharing the burden of the calling of Christ, His Great Commission made to every single disciple!

He takes on the job of the eager in spirit of teaching us and equipping us to do what He desires us to do to fulfill His calling. He authorizes each one of us who are called by His name!

Some of you need to break free of the thinking that the Church is an organization that has all the answers. We are the Church. Our answers are in Jesus! We are to consult Him and launch out in faith in Him!




How do we discern the Truth when two people, say you and Jimmy, claim different truths about the faith?

Jesus gave us the answer.  We are to listen to the Church.

Christians can only listen to the Church to settle questions if we all agree about what the Church is.


Right?

Jesus wants us to heed Him alone. We heed our leaders in the local churches which God provides for us, but there is no central church organization of believers on earth. NONE.


What if two Churches teach contradictory doctrines about salvation?

One is teaching falsehoods.

Does Jesus want us to listen to a Church teaching falsehoods?



I believe that Jesus only started a single Church so we wouldn't have these problems.

I don't think protestantism is what Jesus wanted to happen.  I believe that it is the result of human pride and sin.