Author Topic: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?  (Read 59711 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hehealedme

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1429
  • Manna: 87
  • Gender: Female
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #560 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 10:35:21 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 08, 2014 - 13:23:54 by Hehealedme »

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #561 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:34:17 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #562 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:36:49 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #563 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:43:12 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #564 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:44:56 »
Quote
Then what, exactly does Apostolic succession do, and why is the RCC so insistant on it and that it exists?  If only Christ can create that office, then only Christ can chose the people occupying the office, and that would be somewhat difficult considering the fact that at this point in time, He sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven.  So who is the subject of this “Apostolic succession, end exactly what it is for?  Perhaps, at some point in time, when you are not too busy thinking up new insults, you could post actual scripture that describes this concept of Apostolic succession down through time, because Acts 1 and the choosing of Matthias isn’t it.


We are insistant on it because it exists and because it is Truth. That is what it means to be a Catholic to adhere to and declare all Truth and not just what is required for salvation. Your idea that only Christ can choose successors is faulty because we know for a fact that the Apostles chose Matthias and others but you guys will only accept Matthias because it happened in Scripture. Now in order to suggest that this happened only once you would need historical validation or lack there of. There are plenty of instances where the Apostles appoint other men as they did Matthias. You just have to study history to know this.


Quote
1. When Nero was in the eighth year of his reign, Annianus succeeded Mark the Evangelist in the administration of the parish of Alexandria.
 Eusebius Father of Church History


In Truth Cobalt I only quoted one because I have to go to class but there is a wide library of historically validated authentic writings of that prove the succession of the Twelve.

Clement replaces Peter after he is martyred in Rome.

Ignatius replaces Evodius after he dies of what is widely accepted as natural causes.

Lyntus replaces James in Jerusalem after he dies.

These are off the top of my head in a rush but I can go on for hours.


Quote
Are you saying that priests are not required by the RCC to be celibate?

Only after they have been ordained. A man could marry before being ordained and then become a priest and keep his wife. Then there is what we call unordained ministers. These are authorative laymen and women who are just as authorative as protestant ministers. They are in essence the Catholic equivalent. Then in certain rites a priest is allowed to marry even after ordination.

What I am saying is that celibacy is a standard that the leadership imposed on themselves. Long ago our leaders decided to take Paul's advice and forsake all earthly attachments and made that deeper walk the standard for those who are called to lead Christ's flock.

Quote
Well thanks for saving me from all that.  It sounds absolutely horrible.  And this coming from someone who is not allowed by his own church to read the Bible and attempt to understand it, you have to rely on the Magisterium for an explanation of what it means.

And you see when I get ticked off you want to get offended and call me out for it. Its stupid statements like this that make me fear protestants. If ignorance and just sheer stupidity reign among your kind and reason won't reach you I get offensive. Ok its cool. Whatever. I'm just going to stock pile weapons and ammunition for the day the Beast rises because with stupid beliefs like this spooing out from grown men I really do believe that the Beast will be the least of Roman Catholic problems in America. We'll have to deal with ignorant people who think and believe like this trying to hunt us down and kill us like in the beginning.

Jerk. I wasn't even negative that time.

Quote
It would help if you used the word catholic correctly, because you do not seem to understand what it means.  You seem to think it means the same thing no matter how, when, where or who uses it.  Before the “Catholic

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #565 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:47:52 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

There are contradictions in any faith group, and especially in the RCC! It goes along with man being sinful.

All we must do is seek after Jesus Christ through His word.


Quote
If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Yes, so why do you?

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #566 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:51:09 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

There are contradictions in any faith group, and especially in the RCC! It goes along with man being sinful.

All we must do is seek after Jesus Christ through His word.


Quote
If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Yes, so why do you?


The Catholic Church teaches a unified Truth guided by the Holy Spirit and passed on by the apostles and their successors.

There is no unity and no authority outside of the Catholic Church, and therefore by definition there is no fullness of Truth.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #567 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:52:20 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Exaclty why we don't follow the RCC

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #568 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:54:01 »

Jerk. I wasn't even negative that time.

Wow. Just wow.
Quote
Just do the research.


See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. St. Ignatius Letter to the Syrmeans.

He is teaching us to follow the successors of the Apostles because the Holy Spirit through them teaches and preserves His teachings.

Seriously all you need to do is sit down and do an unbiased study.

Try studying the word of GOD! Can you quote scripture that is authoritative as easily as you produce writings of fallible men?

If yes, then why don;t you do it? Is it because you haven't the knowledge of scripture? Or do you not believe God?

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #569 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:56:44 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Exaclty why we don't follow the RCC

You prefer to lean on your own understanding.


Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #570 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:57:34 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Exaclty why we don't follow the RCC

Thats an oxymoron?lol

You can't have the fullness of Truth without following the RCC. It's the gathering that followed Christ in the desert, His Apostles in Acts and their Successors into present day.

That's like saying, "Thanks but no thanks God. I know you gave me this Church to be your spritual tool and my physical guide but I'm going to do my own thing and learn about you on my own way. Hey but you're still going to give me everything that you give those guys right?"

Its kind of a slap in God's face.

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #571 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 11:58:37 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

There are contradictions in any faith group, and especially in the RCC! It goes along with man being sinful.

All we must do is seek after Jesus Christ through His word.


Quote
If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Yes, so why do you?


The Catholic Church teaches a unified Truth guided by the Holy Spirit and passed on by the apostles and their successors.

Prove that one! There is not much unified in it, nor is it supported by God in His inspired word.

Quote
There is no unity and no authority outside of the Catholic Church, and therefore by definition there is no fullness of Truth.

Poke your head outside of your chosen church group once in a while and you will be blown away by the thousands of churches that the Holy Spirit blesses and graces with His very presence regularly.

Our authority as Christians comes from Jesus Christ alone and not a body that has set itself up as an authority. No, we the Church, the people of God carry His authority. We are His BODY!

You have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked by a group that is only a religious shell--no substance, all fluff.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #572 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:00:10 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

There are contradictions in any faith group, and especially in the RCC! It goes along with man being sinful.

All we must do is seek after Jesus Christ through His word.


Quote
If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Yes, so why do you?


The Catholic Church teaches a unified Truth guided by the Holy Spirit and passed on by the apostles and their successors.

Prove that one! There is not much unified in it, nor is it supported by God in His inspired word.

Quote
There is no unity and no authority outside of the Catholic Church, and therefore by definition there is no fullness of Truth.

Poke your head outside of your chosen church group once in a while and you will be blown away by the thousands of churches that the Holy Spirit blesses and graces with His very presence regularly.

Our authority as Christians comes from Jesus Christ alone and not a body that has set itself up as an authority. No, we the Church, the people of God carry His authority. We are His BODY!

You have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked by a group that is only a religious shell--no substance, all fluff.



You are a master at avoiding the issue.

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #573 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:03:09 »
Quote
Wow. Just wow.

Man get out of my face with that junk dude. He can say whatever the heck he wants without me even being rude or negative and he gets a free pass but if I say something you always have something to say. Miss me with that hypocritcal double standard stuff.


Quote
Try studying the word of GOD! Can you quote scripture that is authoritative as easily as you produce writings of fallible men?

If yes, then why don;t you do it? Is it because you haven't the knowledge of scripture? Or do you not believe God?
 
 


Are you incapable of following the thread?

Cobalt wasn't referring to anything that had a place in Scripture!!!!!!! He was talking about the history of the word Catholic and its apllication to Christianity.

Try to keep up.  

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #574 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:05:04 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Exaclty why we don't follow the RCC

Thats an oxymoron?lol

You can't have the fullness of Truth without following the RCC. It's the gathering that followed Christ in the desert, His Apostles in Acts and their Successors into present day.

That's like saying, "Thanks but no thanks God. I know you gave me this Church to be your spritual tool and my physical guide but I'm going to do my own thing and learn about you on my own way. Hey but you're still going to give me everything that you give those guys right?"

Its kind of a slap in God's face.

Yep, you keep believing that one. Keep denying the truth of the Holy Spirit as our Revealer. Keep denying a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Keep denying the word of God. continue being brainwashed.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord---in complete freedom in Christ, and not in any heavy bondage of religion.

It is a slap in the face of God to follow dead religion rather than His life-giving truth. He calls people who do what you do 'Pharisees'.

2 Timothy 3:5
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!


Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #575 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:07:32 »
Quote
Wow. Just wow.

Man get out of my face with that junk dude. He can say whatever the heck he wants without me even being rude or negative and he gets a free pass but if I say something you always have something to say. Miss me with that hypocritcal double standard stuff.

LOL! Have I ever called you a nasty name? What is hypocritical about keeping a civil tongue in my head?


Quote
Are you incapable of following the thread?

Cobalt wasn't referring to anything that had a place in Scripture!!!!!!! He was talking about the history of the word Catholic and its apllication to Christianity.

Try to keep up.  

Deflection #999

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #576 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:11:35 »

Quote
LOL! Have I ever called you a nasty name? What is hypocritical about keeping a civil tongue in my head?

You are always quick to call me out but never call any of your protestants out when they say stuff that isn't true or rude. Cobalt's statement was a lie and completely unecessary when I wasn't even trying to be rude but you get on me for retaliating and don't even mention his fault.

Get out of here with that.


Quote
Deflection #999

Really? So because you interrupt a conversation between two people talking about the cars and try to belittle one of the people for not referencing planes I'm the one thats deflecting?

This is ridiculous.

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #577 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:26:57 »
.




You read the words of the apostles and then decide for yourself what the words mean.

Jesus told us to listen to the Church.

You choose to lean on your own understanding, which is why protestantism contains so many contradictory teachings.

No, Jesus tells us to listen to the Holy Spirit.  I dealt with this subject extensively, but you totally ignored it.  I'm still waiting for scriptural proof.


Jesus told US to listen to the leaders.  We don't get to make up our own message, we are to follow their message.



John 17
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

    20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

BOLD= CHURCH LEADERS(Apostles)

Underline= The rest of us


1.  Where did Jesus tell anyone to listen to the RCC?

2.  Where did Jesus tell anyone that it's wrong to listen to self - except for the RCC, it just listen to self?

3.  Where did Jesus say anything about any denomination being unaccountable - yours, the EO, the LDS or mine?

4.  Who or what told you to specifically "listen" to the RCC as unto God (say in the Catechism of the RCC alone # 87)?   What is the RCC alone telling you to listen to alone - itself? 






.

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #578 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:34:09 »

Quote
LOL! Have I ever called you a nasty name? What is hypocritical about keeping a civil tongue in my head?

You are always quick to call me out but never call any of your protestants out when they say stuff that isn't true or rude. Cobalt's statement was a lie and completely unecessary when I wasn't even trying to be rude but you get on me for retaliating and don't even mention his fault.

Get out of here with that.

If someone says something stupid I often overlook it, but you are on a roll.

I never saw a fault in Cobalt's post.


Quote
Really? So because you interrupt a conversation between two people talking about the cars and try to belittle one of the people for not referencing planes I'm the one thats deflecting?

This is ridiculous.

This is an open forum. Interruptions are pretty much impossible, unless a person wants to....troll!

Offline Hehealedme

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1429
  • Manna: 87
  • Gender: Female
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #579 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 12:57:51 »
.
« Last Edit: Mon Dec 08, 2014 - 13:22:42 by Hehealedme »

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #580 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 13:01:28 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Exaclty why we don't follow the RCC

You prefer to lean on your own understanding.



Thats an easy out statement that caries no substance.  What i lean on is Gods word. I know it will never mislead or lie to me. The Holy spirit is my guide and confirms the truth in scripture, not fallible men. Not men who say listen to me because i am authority. Gods word is authority. The real question  here is who is leaning on their own understanding.

Do you put more faith in men then in Gods word?

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #581 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 13:26:12 »

While God can  Thats an easy out statement that caries no substance.  What i lean on is Gods word. I know it will never mislead or lie to me. The Holy spirit is my guide and confirms the truth in scripture, not fallible men. Not men who say listen to me because i am authority. Gods word is authority. The real question  here is who is leaning on their own understanding.

Do you put more faith in men then in Gods word?

Jesus created a Church and told us to listen to it.

Some prefer to lean on their own unerstanding.

You claim an authority for yourself that was not granted to you by Jesus.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #582 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 13:35:36 »

While God can  Thats an easy out statement that caries no substance.  What i lean on is Gods word. I know it will never mislead or lie to me. The Holy spirit is my guide and confirms the truth in scripture, not fallible men. Not men who say listen to me because i am authority. Gods word is authority. The real question  here is who is leaning on their own understanding.

Do you put more faith in men then in Gods word?

Jesus created a Church and told us to listen to it.

Some prefer to lean on their own unerstanding.

You claim an authority for yourself that was not granted to you by Jesus.

Let me ask then one more time, do you put more faith in men than Gods word?

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #583 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 13:52:28 »
You are asking that question with the implication that Catholic doctrine is the product of men. Catholic doctrine is just like Sacred Scripture it passses through the hands of God's chosen leadership but it is not their work. It is God's.

So your question is ultimately void when you accept the reality of the situation.

Official universally binding Catholic doctrine does not come from man. It is a piece of God's Word which Truth and the Infinity thereof.

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #584 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 13:54:26 »
Jesus created a Church and told us to listen to it.

Of course, there's NOTHING to remotely indicate that He created any denomination (the entirely baseless claims of the RCC and LDS each for self exclusively notwithstanding) or that He suggested we listen to ANY denomination (the entirely baseless claims of the RCC and LDS each for self exclusively notwithstanding).


Quote
Some prefer to lean on their own unerstanding.

So, what do YOU call it when the RCC leans on
1)  The Tradition of the RCC as defined by the RCC, chosen by the RCC and interpreted by the RCC, plus
2)  The Scriptures in the heart of the RCC as interpreted by the RCC so as to agree with the teachings and claims of the RCC for the RCC alone, plus
3)  The "Magisterium" of the RCC as chosen by the RCC from among the clergy of the RCC that have vowed to uphold "with docility" the teachings of the RCC?


 ::shrug::



Quote
You claim an authority for yourself that was not granted to you by Jesus.

Actually, the only one  that makes the claims of the RCC alone for the RCC alone (for example in the Catechism of the RCC # 87) are unique to the RCC alone - NO other denomination claims such for self alone (The early LDS one did but no longer).  





.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #585 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 14:04:33 »

What the RCC is putting out contradicts God.

Wrong.

The Church contradicts your personal interpretation of scripture.

Holy Spirit is our interpreter. The Church is simply who we are. Who is your interpreter? If it is your church, then you are being led astray by feeble men and ignoring Holy Spirit who longs to teach you His truth personally---through a personal relationship with Him.

While God can be trusted to place good leaders over  us, He makes it clear to us that we must allow Him to feed us by His word. We are to study to show ourselves approved. We must be able to handle His truth well, and rightly divide the word. We are not to rely totally on weak men to interpret the word for us. That is one of the beliefs that weak sheep hold to.

Strong, sheep who follow the Master hear His voice by His word when they read it themselves.



Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

There are contradictions in any faith group, and especially in the RCC! It goes along with man being sinful.

All we must do is seek after Jesus Christ through His word.


Quote
If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Yes, so why do you?


The Catholic Church teaches a unified Truth guided by the Holy Spirit and passed on by the apostles and their successors.

Prove that one! There is not much unified in it, nor is it supported by God in His inspired word.

Quote
There is no unity and no authority outside of the Catholic Church, and therefore by definition there is no fullness of Truth.

Poke your head outside of your chosen church group once in a while and you will be blown away by the thousands of churches that the Holy Spirit blesses and graces with His very presence regularly.

Our authority as Christians comes from Jesus Christ alone and not a body that has set itself up as an authority. No, we the Church, the people of God carry His authority. We are His BODY!

You have allowed yourself to be hoodwinked by a group that is only a religious shell--no substance, all fluff.



You are a master at avoiding the issue.





Quote
You can't have the fullness of Truth without following the RCC


That is Total Crap!...the RCC is NOTHING for God!



Quote
You are a master at avoiding the issue.
Quote
When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?


Which church are YOU listening to?...Jesus' Church  or the RCC ?

It is OK to stop listening to the ''Church'' when the ''Church'' is man's word over God's!...




[/quote]


Jesus only started one Church.

What do we know about this Church?

Among other things, we know that Jesus said, " Thou art Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build my Church"


Which Church is built upon Cephas?


Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #586 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 15:24:31 »
You are asking that question with the implication that Catholic doctrine is the product of men. Catholic doctrine is just like Sacred Scripture it passses through the hands of God's chosen leadership but it is not their work. It is God's.

So your question is ultimately void when you accept the reality of the situation.

Official universally binding Catholic doctrine does not come from man. It is a piece of God's Word which Truth and the Infinity thereof.

What Catholics take from scripture is true doctrine. doctrines they invented are not any part of Gods word. You say men who call themselves church authority can create doctrine that is equal to Gods word

So i will ask you the same question. Do you put more faith in men than Gods word?

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #587 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 15:26:19 »
You are asking that question with the implication that Catholic doctrine is the product of men. Catholic doctrine is just like Sacred Scripture it passses through the hands of God's chosen leadership but it is not their work. It is God's.

So your question is ultimately void when you accept the reality of the situation.

Official universally binding Catholic doctrine does not come from man. It is a piece of God's Word which Truth and the Infinity thereof.

What Catholics take from scripture is true doctrine. doctrines they invented are not any part of Gods word. You say men who call themselves church authority can create doctrine that is equal to Gods word

So i will ask you the same question. Do you put more faith in men than Gods word?

The Catholic Church wrote, compiled and preserved the New Testament.  Of course we believe it is God's Word.

Our differences lie in interpretations of scripture.


You believe many modern interpretations of scripture which were never part of the early Church.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #588 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 15:59:34 »
You are asking that question with the implication that Catholic doctrine is the product of men. Catholic doctrine is just like Sacred Scripture it passses through the hands of God's chosen leadership but it is not their work. It is God's.

So your question is ultimately void when you accept the reality of the situation.

Official universally binding Catholic doctrine does not come from man. It is a piece of God's Word which Truth and the Infinity thereof.

What Catholics take from scripture is true doctrine. doctrines they invented are not any part of Gods word. You say men who call themselves church authority can create doctrine that is equal to Gods word

So i will ask you the same question. Do you put more faith in men than Gods word?

The Catholic Church wrote, compiled and preserved the New Testament.  Of course we believe it is God's Word.

Our differences lie in interpretations of scripture.


You believe many modern interpretations of scripture which were never part of the early Church.


Let me get this straight: We know that when you say catholic you are making it synonymous with the RCC and there was no RCC when scripture was wrote at east what you see it as. So you are telling me that the papacy   wrote scripture. There was no papacy that was a religious political authority system when scripture was wrote. No pope sitiing on a throne with a fancy hat with people who bowed at his feet

The question was not about differences in interpretation. It was about in what do you put more faith in Men or Gods word?

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #589 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 16:01:40 »
You are asking that question with the implication that Catholic doctrine is the product of men. Catholic doctrine is just like Sacred Scripture it passses through the hands of God's chosen leadership but it is not their work. It is God's.

So your question is ultimately void when you accept the reality of the situation.

Official universally binding Catholic doctrine does not come from man. It is a piece of God's Word which Truth and the Infinity thereof.

What Catholics take from scripture is true doctrine. doctrines they invented are not any part of Gods word. You say men who call themselves church authority can create doctrine that is equal to Gods word

So i will ask you the same question. Do you put more faith in men than Gods word?

I just don't understand how you can read my post and not catch on.

Did Sacred Scripture physically pass through the Apostles?
Yes
Did the Catholic Church physically canonize Sacred Scripture?
Yes
Did the Apostles author Sacred Scripture?
No
Who did?
God
But how did the Apostles physically write them?
God used them as a tool to physically manifest and proclaim His Word
Did the Catholic Church by its own reason, power and authority formulate the canon?
No
Who did?
God
But didn't they debate and discuss endlessly about which books were inspired and which were not? And then didn't they agree on such and bring them together to physically form Sacred Scripture?
Yes and Yes
Then who created the canon?
God. When the time came he spoke to His leadership and told them His books to bring together just as He spoke to their predecessors about writing down His words to bring together to form each separate book.
So then yes God created the canon but delivered to us through the Catholic Church?
Bingo
Is it the same process for Catholic doctrine?
Yes
All of it?
Every single piece

Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1896
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #590 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 16:13:29 »


The Catholic Church wrote, compiled and preserved the New Testament.  Of course we believe it is God's Word.

Our differences lie in interpretations of scripture.

.


I'm always amazed by how Catholics so entirely dismiss all but themselves - as if there were never any Hebrews or Orthodox, even God did not write the Ten Commandments, nope, the RCC denomination appeared in the cloud and with the finger of the denomination, wrote them.  I just find it amazing....  Friend, I know the RCC insists it is not accountable for anything it says, but it's just absurd to argue that the RC denomination "wrote" the Holy Scriptures (or even just the NT ones), I honestly don't know how a denomination CAN write anything and of course, there is ZERO evidence that the RCC denomination even existed in the First Century (or for some centuries after that).  

No.  The differences between the RCC and the other 49,999 denominations some Catholics insist exist are simply ones of "interpretation" of Scripture.  If it were, the RCC would embrace accountability and the Rule of Scripture instead of so passionately rejecting such.  IF it was just a matter of "which meaning of this word in the text is meant here" then please present all the Scriptures about the body of Mary at the moment of Her death and why you think some word in them has a meaning at the time of "to assume into heaven" and we can discuss that.   Or present all the Scriptures about the Bishop of Rome and why a certain word of them had the meaning of "infallible" and that's the best meaning of that word in the text.  No.   I think you know:   NONE of the unique, distinctive RCC dogmas have anything to do with interpretation of anything, they are simply views the RCC came up with - and then (because Scripture is right when it agrees with the RCC) imputes it's own views into Scripture via extreme forms of eisegesis.  I know that.  I honestly think you do, too.  It's not a problem for you because the RCC is not accountable for what it teaches or claims - and besides, for you, the Authority is the RCC, not Scripture.  




Quote
You believe many modern interpretations of scripture which were never part of the early Church.

Like doing EXACTLY as Mary, Joseph, Jesus, all 12 Apostles and everyone who lived in the First and Second Century and saying NOTHING about how often Mary may have had sex (if at all), or how Mary was conceived or what happened to Her body at Her death (or was it undeath) - being SILENT?   Isn't the Protestant stance - silence - the one that was embraced by the earliest church?  




And if the RCC is listening to the early church (which, according to you, is itself), isn't that itself listening to itself, which you declared is WRONG to do?



 ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug:: ::shrug::






.



.

Offline mclees8

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5210
  • Manna: 135
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #591 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 17:20:24 »
You are asking that question with the implication that Catholic doctrine is the product of men. Catholic doctrine is just like Sacred Scripture it passses through the hands of God's chosen leadership but it is not their work. It is God's.

So your question is ultimately void when you accept the reality of the situation.

Official universally binding Catholic doctrine does not come from man. It is a piece of God's Word which Truth and the Infinity thereof.

What Catholics take from scripture is true doctrine. doctrines they invented are not any part of Gods word. You say men who call themselves church authority can create doctrine that is equal to Gods word

So i will ask you the same question. Do you put more faith in men than Gods word?

I just don't understand how you can read my post and not catch on.

Did Sacred Scripture physically pass through the Apostles?
Yes
Did the Catholic Church physically canonize Sacred Scripture?
Yes
Did the Apostles author Sacred Scripture?
No
Who did?
God
But how did the Apostles physically write them?
God used them as a tool to physically manifest and proclaim His Word
Did the Catholic Church by its own reason, power and authority formulate the canon?
No
Who did?
God
But didn't they debate and discuss endlessly about which books were inspired and which were not? And then didn't they agree on such and bring them together to physically form Sacred Scripture?
Yes and Yes
Then who created the canon?
God. When the time came he spoke to His leadership and told them His books to bring together just as He spoke to their predecessors about writing down His words to bring together to form each separate book.
So then yes God created the canon but delivered to us through the Catholic Church?
Bingo
Is it the same process for Catholic doctrine?
Yes
All of it?
Every single piece


And just what does that mean to you LH.? We agree God was author and inspiration of Scripture. You think its supposed to mean something that the catholic church delivered scripture to us. I don't care who delivered it to us God will use even Donkey if he chooses.  I just want to ask a question because I just never asked it before. but at what time or date was the cannons put together? was it before or after 300 AD Just curious.  There's always confusion about the use of the word catholic. RC's would like us to believe that the church was always catholic but they mean it was always Roman catholic. In essence saying the church was always Roman Catholic. Deception for sure.

Offline Cobalt1959

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Manna: 53
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #592 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 18:09:42 »

Jesus told US to listen to the leaders.  We don't get to make up our own message, we are to follow their message.



John 17
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

    20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

BOLD= CHURCH LEADERS(Apostles)

Underline= The rest of us

The scripture you quoted has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.  It doesn't even have anything to do with what you said.  That scripture has no statement for us to listen to our leaders.  We are told to listen to the Holy Spirit.  I would ask you, again, to deal with specific scripture I posted on that earlier in this thread, but I realize there is no way you are going to do so, because you are not equipped to do so.

Offline Cobalt1959

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Manna: 53
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #593 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 18:16:46 »


Why does protestantism teach so many contradictions?

If the Holy Spirit is truly leading the Church into all Truth then it cannot teach falsehoods.

Then perhaps you can explain the Inquisitions.  This was "church" doctrine and still is, although it is no longer practiced because it would be politically impossible to do so.  The Inquisitions were carried out for some 700 years, from the 13th to 19th centuries under the direct guidance of the Roman Catholic Church, the Popes and the Dominican order.  Perhaps you can explain this to me.

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
Re: When did it become OK to stop listening to the Church?
« Reply #594 on: Mon Mar 21, 2011 - 18:33:15 »
The Inquisitions have nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine.

What do you know about the inquisitions?