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Offline Rella

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 06:34:42 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 06:34:42 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 06:42:56 »

Jesus contacted or communicated with people who have died .


You are equating our Lord and Savior, who came to/ was sent to us by God, who is God as a simple mortal man.

He was never a simple mortal man... He , at best was only 1/2 of such.

Therefore what He did has no bearing on what were are admonished not to do.

God wrote the rules and God can do with them whatever He will.

So Jesus talked to the dead.... so what?

He also was respected.... which you and I will never be.

The only possible dead 'we' could talk to are demons impersonating someone we might have known.


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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 06:42:56 »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #37 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:25:54 »
Jesus Christ is not dead; He is alive in heaven! 

And so is Mary!


But, Jesus was the one God raised from the dead. Mary just died.

Mary is alive, and so is everyone in heaven.  Do you not believe this?
Do you not believe that it was JESUS that was raised from the dead and not Mary?

Mary died, just like we all will...and is now in Heaven with God, but what happened to her is NOT what happened to Jesus.  Mary is like us. Jesus is not.

So you agree, that Mary is alive in heaven.    So what is your problem with my bolded statement above?

Didn't say I had a problem with it, other than your wording.

What was the point of your reply?  I don't understand.

Yes. I wanted to clarify that Mary and Jesus are NOT the same importance.

That's a strange thing to clarify, since no one claims that they are.

Quote
Do you ask your friends to pray for you?  Are they raised from the dead?

I do not ask my dead friends to pray for me.  They are having too much fun being with God and worshiping Him in the fullness of Truth. They can't hear me and I wouldn't want to bother them anyway.  How selfish to pull them away from Heaven and all its glories to drag them back into worldly mire.

My friends who still draw breath, yes, we pray for one another.

So then being "raised from the dead" is not a prerequisite for asking someone to pray for you.

I ask the saints in heaven to pray for me because heaven isn't about having fun but being truly alive in Christ, and they take great joy in being able to help others in the body of Christ, after being helped themselves by the prayers of others.  They can hear us because God allows them to.  Your friends, if they are in heaven, are wanting to help you in Christ Jesus, but you won't let them.  That is hardly selfish of them to want to help others in the body of Christ.  What WOULD be selfish of them would be a non-desire to help others but just to "have fun in heaven".

You are wasting your time and you will never get through to this bunch. They have chosen the path of rejectionism, dismissing orthodox teachings and belief's that were first proclaimed from day one of the newly emerging Christian faith. You were right a few weeks ago to stop posting, as no good can come out of these arguments.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:39:21 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:36:02 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Delete.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:38:15 by Ladonia »

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 12:36:02 »

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:08:55 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .


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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:08:55 »



Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #40 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:13:27 »
Jesus Christ is not dead; He is alive in heaven! 

And so is Mary!

But, Jesus was the one God raised from the dead. Mary just died.

Mary is alive, and so is everyone in heaven.  Do you not believe this?
 

we are specifically and strong warned NOT to ever contact or communicate with people who have died.

Jesus contacted or communicated with people who have died .

By the way , it is amusing to me how hot under the collar the Protestants on this forum behave when they are accused of doing something which we know they don't do . Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .

It is interesting to see the shoe is on the other foot for a change .

I am not aware of anything that has been said here about the beliefs and practises of the RC church has been wrong.

You yourself have claimed IN THIS THREAD that we worship Mary, and have even been told that we don't.   So that, for one.


Quote
God warns us very firmly NOT to communicate with those who have died. If you do that you are getting into evil and the occult, its your choice.
However saying that any believer prays to a bit of wood is quite bizarre.  In 40 years as a believer I can say that is a mad and weird accusation. In fact RCatholics are far more likely to have and use the cross, (with Jesus on it in their case) in their churches and homes than others.

Does it strike you as odd that you are being more legalistic about this than we are?  And yet we are the ones who say that a person can be lost through sin.  So why are you concerned whether any Christian is violating the commandments?  Not that we are, but you say that we are, but (in your estimation) who cares?  It's not like we are saved by keeping the law (in your estimation).

In reality though the fact is that you don't understand the intent of the law you are quoting, nor do you understand Catholic practice.  The intent of the law that you are so concerned about was to prevent people from trying to obtain hidden information from entities through divination or fortune tellers.  No such thing is done when we pray to Mary.  The communication here is entirely one-way, and is essentially a request for help from someone we know to be in heaven, and for everyone who is in heaven, the source of that help (God's grace) is always ultimately from God himself.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #41 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:18:48 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .


Maybe you can name some of them.

Offline Rella

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #42 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:28:41 »


Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

I have read many, if not all of the threads. That is why I asked you what they are because I truly have not read any
thing that was said that my Catholic family members, and friends do not do.

So, again, I ask which ones?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #43 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 13:38:55 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .


Maybe you can name some of them.

One has been named in the post prior to this one I am quoting.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #44 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 14:04:15 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .

maybe give us a list.
Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .


Maybe you can name some of them.

One has been named in the post prior to this one I am quoting.

Offline kensington

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #45 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 15:34:14 »
Catholics claim they do not worship Mary... and yet there is a whole Marion doctrine directed to the worship of Mary.  My sil and my husband's cousin both openly worship and admit to worshipping Mary.  They firmly believed that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ.

A few Catholics who post here deny that they do such things, and perhaps they do not.  But, overall, Catholics do. 

They have been accused of having idols...  the Catholics here say they are not.  But, the ones seen in the Catholic churches and the homes of Catholics fall under the description idols in God's word.  The 2 ft statue of Mary in my sil's house on display in a place of honor so her "Mary club" can come over every week and bow down and pray to the statue in her living room... falls under "Idol".

The Catholics here openly admit to infant baptism which in no way so far has had any proof of it in the Word of God.  It's a pretty ceremony, parents do to an infant, but it has no purpose in the Christian walk, per they even say themselves that they grow up to be sinners and have to come to a spiritual awakening and seek a walk with him.  Which validates the principle that protestants practice by waiting for baptism until the person has had their spiritual eyes opened and gotten saved.

They do keep a graven image of Christ on the cross at all times when Christ has not been on the cross for 2,000 years and never will be again.  They confine him to the cross keeping the people always at the crucifixion and never looking toward eternity Victorious with Christ. 

They preach a purgatory place that does not exist in scripture at all.  Bending a scripture (1 scripture) that is solely about a testing by the fire of the Holy Spirit that will happen in an instant, making it into the place where Catholics will be held until they are good enough to get to Heaven or unless someone pays the money to have the prayers said to let them out early. Usually done on the anniversary of the death of the person trapped in purgatory.

While we have all seen that the few Catholics here deny such things happen, we all know Catholics in our personal lives that assure us through word and deed they indeed do these things and believe them.  Even though few deny... the evidence is overwhelming that most of the Catholic church does these things.

It's been informative for me to have these discussions here, defending the Word of God and seeing what these few Catholics say about the things the rest of us see and or witness in word and deed in the Catholic's and the Catholic Church.  I can clearly see that there are mass numbers of Catholics who do participate in these things and believe these things. Perhaps one day they will meet a Catholic who can explain to them the differences, but for now... there are plenty of Catholics who practice these things.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 15:43:07 by kensington »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #46 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 16:03:48 »
Catholics claim they do not worship Mary... and yet there is a whole Marion doctrine directed to the worship of Mary.  My sil and my husband's cousin both openly worship and admit to worshipping Mary.  They firmly believed that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ.

A few Catholics who post here deny that they do such things, and perhaps they do not.  But, overall, Catholics do. 

There is doctrine dedicated to Mary but not to her worship.  Because we don't worship Mary. 

The problem really is that there is a general confusion among many people about what actually constitutes worship.  Biblically, worship always involves sacrifice.  Protestantism abandoned sacrifice as worship, and so abandoned worship.   Now "worship" has been relegated to raising hands up, singing songs, praising God, and also "prayer" is seen as worship.

If worship involves kneeling or bowing, then how come so few Protestants kneel or bow?  If singing songs and raising hands is worship, then how come that didn't happen in the NT when God walked among them?

Protestantism has firmly rejected the co-operation of God's people in the salvation of others, at least in principle.  In actuality they practice it even though they reject it.  But the reality is that God intended to make people co-operators in bringing salvation to the world.  Whether it is by preaching the word, or producing Bibles, or administering sacraments such as baptism, people are co-operators in the plan of salvation.

This co-operation is entirely reliant upon and subjected to the one Redemptive act of Christ.  And it is in THAT sense that we as Catholics speak of Mary as co-Redmptrix.  Co- in the sense we use it doesn't mean "alongside" or a "stand in for" as perhaps one might see "pilot" and "co-pilot".  The use of "Co-" originates from the Latin "cum" which means exactly what I have stated in the first sentence in this paragraph, as far as being "co-Redemptrix" is concerned.

They have been accused of having idols...  the Catholics here say they are not.  But, the ones seen in the Catholic churches and the homes of Catholics fall under the description idols in God's word.  The 2 ft statue of Mary in my sil's house on display in a place of honor so her "Mary club" can come over every week and bow down and pray to the statue in her living room... falls under "Idol".

Actually, no it doesn't.  You ignorantly think that it is the same as the OT idols which were forbidden.  But in those days, people actually believed that the statue itself possessed Godlike power.  And that is altogether different from the usage of statues of Mary or any of the saints.

Statues aid devotion through symbolism and help us as human persons connect emotionally and mentally with the spiritual realities that they represent.  They are like pictures of our loved ones who have passed away.  If I had a picture of my grandpa and I talked to it, what rational person would think that I was attributing the ability to listen and respond to some picture.  NO ONE.  The same goes for statues.  We use the statues as a tool to help us meditate on something.  It's an emotional connection to the intangible.  Not a spiritual connection, mind you, but an emotional one. 

I think evangelicals would like to pretend that our humanity is something to be abhored and suppressed.  That is perhaps the problem here.  Humanly speaking, having statues to point to spiritual realities help us within our humanity.  And that is perfectly fine, because our humanity is not separate from who we are as persons.

The Catholics here openly admit to infant baptism which in no way so far has had any proof of it in the Word of God.  It's a pretty ceremony, parents do to an infant, but it has no purpose in the Christian walk, per they even say themselves that they grow up to be sinners and have to come to a spiritual awakening and seek a walk with him.  Which validates the principle that protestants practice by waiting for baptism until the person has had their spiritual eyes opened and gotten saved.

There is a ton of proof of the salvific nature of baptism in the Bible which evangelicals do somersaults to deny.  One aspect that is a major problem for them is that, within such theology, there is a huge problem when it comes to children.  They have to claim that children are saved to make people happy, but in so doing they have to admit that children are saved completely apart from Christ.  But no one seems to bat an eye at that PLAIN FACT.

They do keep a graven image of Christ on the cross at all times when Christ has not been on the cross for 2,000 years and never will be again.  They confine him to the cross keeping the people always at the crucifixion and never looking toward eternity Victorious with Christ. 

Hardly confining Jesus to the cross, Jesus comes to us body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist, the real resurrected Jesus alive and truly and substantially present.  The cross helps us remember that we are called to be like Jesus and take up our crosses each day, with humility, two truths which have absolutely no place in Evangelical belief or practice.  Which is why it is so scandalous to see Jesus on the cross.

They preach a purgatory place that does not exist in scripture at all.  Bending a scripture (1 scripture) that is solely about a testing by the fire of the Holy Spirit that will happen in an instant, making it into the place where Catholics will be held until they are good enough to get to Heaven or unless someone pays the money to have the prayers said to let them out early. Usually done on the anniversary of the death of the person trapped in purgatory.

Scripture is full of references to purgatory.  It is implied all over the place, and it even makes complete sense rationally.  Further you have no clue of what you speak, or intentionally and willfully distort it.  If it is the former then that is preferable for your own soul on the day of judgement.

Offline kensington

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #47 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 16:56:36 »
See what I mean....  my points proven, perfectly. Plenty of denial here... but doesn't seem to pertain to Catholics in the real world off of this forum. 

I know for a fact my sister in law believes that statue of Mary embodies Mary and she prays to it. 

No... scripture does not verify purgatory... myth. Statues aid devotion through symbolism = worship.  I don't know where you got the idea that Protestants don't bow or kneel to God... we certainly do. To God alone. No others, no statues.  Co operating in the crucifix of Jesus?  How does that grant the title of Co-Redemptrix, since so many people cooperated in the crucifix of Christ, wouldn't they all be Co-Redeemers?  Joseph, John the Baptist, Pilate, the Roman Soldiers, Joseph of Arimathea, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?  They were all there, they all had a very important part in the life and crucifix of Jesus. 

Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #48 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 17:28:02 »
I am not aware of anything that has been said here about the beliefs and practises of the RC church has been wrong.
You yourself have claimed IN THIS THREAD that we worship Mary, and have even been told that we don't.   So that, for one.

Quote
God warns us very firmly NOT to communicate with those who have died. If you do that you are getting into evil and the occult, its your choice.
However saying that any believer prays to a bit of wood is quite bizarre.  In 40 years as a believer I can say that is a mad and weird accusation. In fact RCatholics are far more likely to have and use the cross, (with Jesus on it in their case) in their churches and homes than others.



Does it strike you as odd that you are being more legalistic about this than we are?  And yet we are the ones who say that a person can be lost through sin. 

So why are you concerned whether any Christian is violating the commandments?  Not that we are, but you say that we are, but (in your estimation) who cares?  It's not like we are saved by keeping the law (in your estimation).

what strikes me as odd is that after God did away with legalism, the RCC brought it back in a new form.  So much for 'all truth' from them!

as for being concerned about Christians violating the commandments,  you'll find something in the Bible about that - written by Paul.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 21:51:12 by skeeter »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #49 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 18:02:37 »
Catholics claim they do not worship Mary... and yet there is a whole Marion doctrine directed to the worship of Mary.  My sil and my husband's cousin both openly worship and admit to worshipping Mary.  They firmly believed that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ.

A few Catholics who post here deny that they do such things, and perhaps they do not.  But, overall, Catholics do. 

There is doctrine dedicated to Mary but not to her worship.  Because we don't worship Mary.   
yes, Catholics do worship Mary.  Try as you might to now also redefine 'worship'. 


The problem really is that there is a general confusion among many people about what actually constitutes worship.  Biblically, worship always involves sacrifice.  Protestantism abandoned sacrifice as worship, and so abandoned worship.   Now "worship" has been relegated to raising hands up, singing songs, praising God, and also "prayer" is seen as worship.

If worship involves kneeling or bowing, then how come so few Protestants kneel or bow?  If singing songs and raising hands is worship, then how come that didn't happen in the NT when God walked among them?

Protestantism has firmly rejected the co-operation of God's people in the salvation of others, at least in principle.  In actuality they practice it even though they reject it.  But the reality is that God intended to make people co-operators in bringing salvation to the world.  Whether it is by preaching the word, or producing Bibles, or administering sacraments such as baptism, people are co-operators in the plan of salvation. 
If I ever physically am in the presence of my Lord, I will be on my knees, or flat face down.  Before others? No.

as for singing and raising arms being worship and in the NT, singing is in the NT. Raising arms probably is also. 



This co-operation is entirely reliant upon and subjected to the one Redemptive act of Christ.  And it is in THAT sense that we as Catholics speak of Mary as co-Redmptrix.  Co- in the sense we use it doesn't mean "alongside" or a "stand in for" as perhaps one might see "pilot" and "co-pilot". The use of "Co-" originates from the Latin "cum" which means exactly what I have stated in the first sentence in this paragraph, as far as being "co-Redemptrix" is concerned.
If Christ needed a 'co-redeemer', He'd have made it very plain in His word.
as for redefining words, that's so LDS! Mormons and Catholics have a lot in common.
But, you won't fool a born again Christian.


They have been accused of having idols...  the Catholics here say they are not.  But, the ones seen in the Catholic churches and the homes of Catholics fall under the description idols in God's word.  The 2 ft statue of Mary in my sil's house on display in a place of honor so her "Mary club" can come over every week and bow down and pray to the statue in her living room... falls under "Idol".

 

Actually, no it doesn't.  You ignorantly think that it is the same as the OT idols which were forbidden.  But in those days, people actually believed that the statue itself possessed Godlike power.  And that is altogether different from the usage of statues of Mary or any of the saints.

Statues aid devotion through symbolism and help us as human persons connect emotionally and mentally with the spiritual realities that they represent.  They are like pictures of our loved ones who have passed away.  If I had a picture of my grandpa and I talked to it, what rational person would think that I was attributing the ability to listen and respond to some picture.  NO ONE.  The same goes for statues.  We use the statues as a tool to help us meditate on something.  It's an emotional connection to the intangible.  Not a spiritual connection, mind you, but an emotional one. 

I think evangelicals would like to pretend that our humanity is something to be abhored and suppressed.  That is perhaps the problem here.  Humanly speaking, having statues to point to spiritual realities help us within our humanity.  And that is perfectly fine, because our humanity is not separate from who we are as persons.
So, Catholics have taken it upon themselves to also redefine idols. Evidently, you think God needs a ton of your help...


Offline Alan

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #50 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 18:08:31 »
The member that created this thread is a supporter of Mary worship, we didn't have to look far.

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #51 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 18:28:05 »
Mary represents the Church hear on earth as we Christians are likened to her.
Mary said let it be done too me, like wise we are as such as Mary co-operation in Christ Lord ship.

Mary took a strike to that Serpent ?   ::saint::

Mary is our Mother, she is the one who is the Blessed.

Am I correct or wrong. ::tippinghat::

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #52 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 20:00:17 »
Hex, why exactly would marry be our mother? It wouldn't make sense, knowing what the Lord said about his mother and brothers and sisters. If anyone can truly take that role, it's the Holy Spirit.

Offline kensington

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #53 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 20:51:47 »
Mary represents the Church hear on earth as we Christians are likened to her.
Mary said let it be done too me, like wise we are as such as Mary co-operation in Christ Lord ship.

Mary took a strike to that Serpent ?   ::saint::

Mary is our Mother, she is the one who is the Blessed.

Am I correct or wrong. ::tippinghat::


You are wrong...  If you have a Bible, you might try actually reading it.

Mary is not our mother...  she was blessed, this is true.  We are blessed also. The blessings of the LORD overtake those who obey Him. Mary does not represent the Church on earth. WE are the Church on earth, the Bride of Christ.  We do not have a Co-op in Christ's Lordship... Jesus is Lord.  Not Mary and not us.

Please, read your bible.

« Last Edit: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 20:54:14 by kensington »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #54 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 21:44:31 »
Mary represents the Church hear on earth as we Christians are likened to her.
Mary said let it be done too me, like wise we are as such as Mary co-operation in Christ Lord ship.

Mary took a strike to that Serpent ?   ::saint::

Mary is our Mother, she is the one who is the Blessed.

Am I correct or wrong. ::tippinghat::
 

Wrong, where does the Bible say that Mary is our mother?  She definitely isnt my mother. She is a sister in Christ. She does not represent the church here on earth, completely unbiblical again. Jesus is the head of the body of believers.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #55 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 21:51:21 »
Catholics claim they do not worship Mary... and yet there is a whole Marion doctrine directed to the worship of Mary.  My sil and my husband's cousin both openly worship and admit to worshipping Mary.  They firmly believed that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ.

A few Catholics who post here deny that they do such things, and perhaps they do not.  But, overall, Catholics do. 

There is doctrine dedicated to Mary but not to her worship.  Because we don't worship Mary.   
yes, Catholics do worship Mary.  Try as you might to now also redefine 'worship'. 


The problem really is that there is a general confusion among many people about what actually constitutes worship.  Biblically, worship always involves sacrifice.  Protestantism abandoned sacrifice as worship, and so abandoned worship.   Now "worship" has been relegated to raising hands up, singing songs, praising God, and also "prayer" is seen as worship.

If worship involves kneeling or bowing, then how come so few Protestants kneel or bow?  If singing songs and raising hands is worship, then how come that didn't happen in the NT when God walked among them?

Protestantism has firmly rejected the co-operation of God's people in the salvation of others, at least in principle.  In actuality they practice it even though they reject it.  But the reality is that God intended to make people co-operators in bringing salvation to the world.  Whether it is by preaching the word, or producing Bibles, or administering sacraments such as baptism, people are co-operators in the plan of salvation. 
If I ever physically am in the presence of my Lord, I will be on my knees, or flat face down.  Before others? No.

as for singing and raising arms being worship and in the NT, singing is in the NT. Raising arms probably is also. 



This co-operation is entirely reliant upon and subjected to the one Redemptive act of Christ.  And it is in THAT sense that we as Catholics speak of Mary as co-Redmptrix.  Co- in the sense we use it doesn't mean "alongside" or a "stand in for" as perhaps one might see "pilot" and "co-pilot". The use of "Co-" originates from the Latin "cum" which means exactly what I have stated in the first sentence in this paragraph, as far as being "co-Redemptrix" is concerned.
If Christ needed a 'co-redeemer', He'd have made it very plain in His word.
as for redefining words, that's so LDS! Mormons and Catholics have a lot in common.
But, you won't fool a born again Christian.


They have been accused of having idols...  the Catholics here say they are not.  But, the ones seen in the Catholic churches and the homes of Catholics fall under the description idols in God's word.  The 2 ft statue of Mary in my sil's house on display in a place of honor so her "Mary club" can come over every week and bow down and pray to the statue in her living room... falls under "Idol".

 

Actually, no it doesn't.  You ignorantly think that it is the same as the OT idols which were forbidden.  But in those days, people actually believed that the statue itself possessed Godlike power.  And that is altogether different from the usage of statues of Mary or any of the saints.

Statues aid devotion through symbolism and help us as human persons connect emotionally and mentally with the spiritual realities that they represent.  They are like pictures of our loved ones who have passed away.  If I had a picture of my grandpa and I talked to it, what rational person would think that I was attributing the ability to listen and respond to some picture.  NO ONE.  The same goes for statues.  We use the statues as a tool to help us meditate on something.  It's an emotional connection to the intangible.  Not a spiritual connection, mind you, but an emotional one. 

I think evangelicals would like to pretend that our humanity is something to be abhored and suppressed.  That is perhaps the problem here.  Humanly speaking, having statues to point to spiritual realities help us within our humanity.  And that is perfectly fine, because our humanity is not separate from who we are as persons.
So, Catholics have taken it upon themselves to also redefine idols. Evidently, you think God needs a ton of your help...
It does indeed skeeter
1 timothy 2 v 8
In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #56 on: Wed Nov 04, 2015 - 22:00:32 »
Mary represents the Church hear on earth as we Christians are likened to her.
Mary said let it be done too me, like wise we are as such as Mary co-operation in Christ Lord ship.

Mary took a strike to that Serpent ?   ::saint::

Mary is our Mother, she is the one who is the Blessed.

Am I correct or wrong. ::tippinghat::

wrong.  she doesn't represent any Christians I know.  She didn't represent me when I was Catholic either.  This stuff must come from  this new Catholicism.

She isn't my mother.  My mother died in 1998.  Mary's long been gone.  She'd have missed my birth!  And she isn't the only one in the Bible who is blessed.

Evidently Catholics today don't have enough to do or think about.  They sure aren't doing for our Lord or thinking about Him.  Too busy with Mary to even read and study God's word to find out what it really does say.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #57 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 01:15:02 »
The problem really is that there is a general confusion among many people about what actually constitutes worship.  Biblically, worship always involves sacrifice.  Protestantism abandoned sacrifice as worship, and so abandoned worship.   Now "worship" has been relegated to raising hands up, singing songs, praising God, and also "prayer" is seen as worship.

If worship involves kneeling or bowing, then how come so few Protestants kneel or bow?  If singing songs and raising hands is worship, then how come that didn't happen in the NT when God walked among them?

Protestantism has firmly rejected the co-operation of God's people in the salvation of others, at least in principle.  In actuality they practice it even though they reject it.  But the reality is that God intended to make people co-operators in bringing salvation to the world.  Whether it is by preaching the word, or producing Bibles, or administering sacraments such as baptism, people are co-operators in the plan of salvation. 
If I ever physically am in the presence of my Lord, I will be on my knees, or flat face down.  Before others? No.

as for singing and raising arms being worship and in the NT, singing is in the NT. Raising arms probably is also. 

This co-operation is entirely reliant upon and subjected to the one Redemptive act of Christ.  And it is in THAT sense that we as Catholics speak of Mary as co-Redmptrix.  Co- in the sense we use it doesn't mean "alongside" or a "stand in for" as perhaps one might see "pilot" and "co-pilot". The use of "Co-" originates from the Latin "cum" which means exactly what I have stated in the first sentence in this paragraph, as far as being "co-Redemptrix" is concerned.
If Christ needed a 'co-redeemer', He'd have made it very plain in His word.
as for redefining words, that's so LDS! Mormons and Catholics have a lot in common.
But, you won't fool a born again Christian.


They have been accused of having idols...  the Catholics here say they are not.  But, the ones seen in the Catholic churches and the homes of Catholics fall under the description idols in God's word.  The 2 ft statue of Mary in my sil's house on display in a place of honor so her "Mary club" can come over every week and bow down and pray to the statue in her living room... falls under "Idol".

 

Actually, no it doesn't.  You ignorantly think that it is the same as the OT idols which were forbidden.  But in those days, people actually believed that the statue itself possessed Godlike power.  And that is altogether different from the usage of statues of Mary or any of the saints.

Statues aid devotion through symbolism and help us as human persons connect emotionally and mentally with the spiritual realities that they represent.  They are like pictures of our loved ones who have passed away.  If I had a picture of my grandpa and I talked to it, what rational person would think that I was attributing the ability to listen and respond to some picture.  NO ONE.  The same goes for statues.  We use the statues as a tool to help us meditate on something.  It's an emotional connection to the intangible.  Not a spiritual connection, mind you, but an emotional one. 

I think evangelicals would like to pretend that our humanity is something to be abhored and suppressed.  That is perhaps the problem here.  Humanly speaking, having statues to point to spiritual realities help us within our humanity.  And that is perfectly fine, because our humanity is not separate from who we are as persons.
So, Catholics have taken it upon themselves to also redefine idols. Evidently, you think God needs a ton of your help...
It does indeed skeeter
1 timothy 2 v 8
In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy.
thx for posting that! I thought there'd be one but didn't have the time to search for it.

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #58 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 01:29:08 »
 ::announcment:: There was this woman who a Angel talked to and without her accepting the task or there would not of become the Emmanuel Jesus ?

She is the mother of Jesus and is the one that the Bible says all Christians will call 'the blessed' ?
She must be blessed above all ? not Jesus mind you, but surely blessed above all men.

I call her Mary the blessed now, not the virgin Mary, why do I say that, well it's because I can't get my prot mates to be able to see past the brain dead idiot simple view point of what they see as a virgin  ::doh::  as to like how a stupid degenerate sees it. ::cryingtears::
As to the true point that she is pure undefiled and nothing can be corrupted too bring about Jesus ? she is the one that poor Satan had a lost to ? just because of her.

Most prots are hell bent on claiming she is just some worthless trash that's just to be kicked around as nothing at all, but maybe it's true she is a sinner, that may be true but on the level of a Saint for sure I would think and maybe the least sin less of all people is true.   

Why would people attack Christ Jesus mother, such a person must be doing the work of Satan.

Sure I know of RC that go way too far with Mary worship that it makes even me sick, and it is because they are elevating her too high and they are dragging Jesus down some what, that gets on my goat with some RC.

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #59 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 01:38:59 »
Mary represents the Church hear on earth as we Christians are likened to her.
Mary said let it be done too me, like wise we are as such as Mary co-operation in Christ Lord ship.

Mary took a strike to that Serpent ?   ::saint::

Mary is our Mother, she is the one who is the Blessed.

Am I correct or wrong. ::tippinghat::

wrong.  she doesn't represent any Christians I know.  She didn't represent me when I was Catholic either.  This stuff must come from  this new Catholicism.

She isn't my mother.  My mother died in 1998.  Mary's long been gone.  She'd have missed my birth!  And she isn't the only one in the Bible who is blessed.

Evidently Catholics today don't have enough to do or think about.  They sure aren't doing for our Lord or thinking about Him.  Too busy with Mary to even read and study God's word to find out what it really does say.
Maybe she is our Mother in a Spiritual sense ?
Is not Mary the Eve, our Mother as was Adam ? that's Biblical is it not ?

If we abide in Christ does that not also point to his hand maid and we are also his hand maid the Church ? remember the Spiritual realm. ::hug::

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #60 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 01:54:32 »
Mary represents the Church hear on earth as we Christians are likened to her.
Mary said let it be done too me, like wise we are as such as Mary co-operation in Christ Lord ship.

Mary took a strike to that Serpent ?   ::saint::

Mary is our Mother, she is the one who is the Blessed.

Am I correct or wrong. ::tippinghat::


You are wrong...  If you have a Bible, you might try actually reading it.

Mary is not our mother...  she was blessed, this is true.  We are blessed also. The blessings of the LORD overtake those who obey Him. Mary does not represent the Church on earth. WE are the Church on earth, the Bride of Christ.  We do not have a Co-op in Christ's Lordship... Jesus is Lord.  Not Mary and not us.

Please, read your bible.
But we abide in Christ Jesus as it's his Lord Ship we follow, is it not.
Anyone who says we are up their with him on his level, well that is totally foolish.
I never said Mary was on Christ level, but I do say she does the work of the Lord, she knew him and who he was.

I I do have a Bible and I do read and study it, for about 50 nearly years now I think. ::lookaround::

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #61 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 01:57:37 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .


Maybe you can name some of them.

If you can't see them throughout this "Catholic forum" then your ignorance of Catholicism is greater than I thought .

As I have already said regarding threads on this forum......They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

The problem is that your ignorance prevents you from seeing them .

Offline kensington

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #62 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 02:32:10 »
That is not true...  This forum is filled with posts of witness of things that Catholics do do.  It's just that the Catholics here deny it. Either they don't or they don't know what their other Catholic people are doing.

I am not blind or ignorant, I know what I've seen Catholic family and people do and say all my life.  Just because the Catholics here deny they do it, does not mean it isn't happening.

If you all are so insistent that these things are not what the CC teaches or condones, then you need to get out there and alert or teach your fellow Catholics the truth, because they are doing those things.

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #63 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 02:36:36 »


Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

I have read many, if not all of the threads. That is why I asked you what they are because I truly have not read any
thing that was said that my Catholic family members, and friends do not do.

So, again, I ask which ones?

If you do a wee bit of research and read through the threads on this forum you will find that they are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

You will find that Catholica , Ladonia and others who know the truth have made rebuttals of these false accusations .

However , people choose to ignore what Catholica , Ladonia and others say . They choose to remain in ignorance . I don't know why . Perhaps it is because of some deep-seated prejudice against anything Catholic .

There is truth in the words of the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen......“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

Whilst people continue to have a grossly wrong perception of the truth of Catholicism the silly , false accusations will , I suppose , continue to be made . And that is sad ......and Satan will rejoice .

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #64 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 03:48:21 »
::announcment:: There was this woman who a Angel talked to and without her accepting the task or there would not of become the Emmanuel Jesus ?

She is the mother of Jesus and is the one that the Bible says all Christians will call 'the blessed' ?
She must be blessed above all ? not Jesus mind you, but surely blessed above all men.

I call her Mary the blessed now, not the virgin Mary, why do I say that, well it's because I can't get my prot mates to be able to see past the brain dead idiot simple view point of what they see as a virgin  ::doh::  as to like how a stupid degenerate sees it. ::cryingtears::
As to the true point that she is pure undefiled and nothing can be corrupted too bring about Jesus ? she is the one that poor Satan had a lost to ? just because of her.

Most prots are hell bent on claiming she is just some worthless trash that's just to be kicked around as nothing at all, but maybe it's true she is a sinner, that may be true but on the level of a Saint for sure I would think and maybe the least sin less of all people is true.   

Why would people attack Christ Jesus mother, such a person must be doing the work of Satan.

Sure I know of RC that go way too far with Mary worship that it makes even me sick, and it is because they are elevating her too high and they are dragging Jesus down some what, that gets on my goat with some RC.
 

I have never known anyone who speaks badly of Mary, we just recognise that she was a young woman called for a very special task but that she is like us, a fallible human being saved by grace. We dont attack her in anyway, but we hate to see the way she is idolised, prayed to and thought of as what she isnt and never was.
She never was perfect, I mean she and Joseph even left him behind once when they had been away, they didnt even know he was missing after all that time??? Not what most mothers would do, so she clearly had her faults and weaknesses as we all do.
We simply see her as the Bible does, and dont try to elevate to her to anywhere she shouldnt be.

Luke 2:43-45New International Version (NIV)

43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45 When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him.

I mean one whole day they didnt notice he was gone? They clearly must have had many children to be able to not miss one of them for 24 hours. Yes, a fallible person in need of salvation just as we are.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 05:00:08 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #65 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 03:50:54 »


Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

I have read many, if not all of the threads. That is why I asked you what they are because I truly have not read any
thing that was said that my Catholic family members, and friends do not do.

So, again, I ask which ones?

If you do a wee bit of research and read through the threads on this forum you will find that they are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

You will find that Catholica , Ladonia and others who know the truth have made rebuttals of these false accusations .

However , people choose to ignore what Catholica , Ladonia and others say . They choose to remain in ignorance . I don't know why . Perhaps it is because of some deep-seated prejudice against anything Catholic .

There is truth in the words of the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen......“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

Whilst people continue to have a grossly wrong perception of the truth of Catholicism the silly , false accusations will , I suppose , continue to be made . And that is sad ......and Satan will rejoice .

We keep asking what these things are that are untrue allegations. Satan loves people to be deceived and led astray Paulus, and he hates it when others stand up for what is true and Biblical.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #66 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 03:53:18 »

 Yet Protestants on this forum in their ignorance of the truth are always accusing Catholics of doing things which Catholics don't do .


Wat have the Protestants on here accused Catholics of doing that they , the Catholics , don't do?

Good heavens , matey .

Have you not got eyes to see ?

Read through the threads on this "Catholic" forum .

They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .


Maybe you can name some of them.

If you can't see them throughout this "Catholic forum" then your ignorance of Catholicism is greater than I thought .

As I have already said regarding threads on this forum......They are riddled with accusations made against Catholics of things which Catholics do not do .

The problem is that your ignorance prevents you from seeing them .

Such as? Actually the longer I have been a believer the more clearly I see teachings and beliefs that are completely unbiblical. The more I am concerned for the millions caught up in them.   

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #67 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 06:09:47 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .

Offline Alan

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #68 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 06:34:46 »
::announcment:: There was this woman who a Angel talked to and without her accepting the task or there would not of become the Emmanuel Jesus ?



You really think Mary had a choice here? Did she ponder on the notion and then ultimately agree to the terms? The choice of Mary was entirely God's doing, it was His will and she was chosen because it was known to God that she would be obedient to the role she had been appointed to, but hypothetically if Mary had refused out of fear then God would have simply chosen another, the birth of Christ was to happen regardless of the vessel to which He was conceived in. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #69 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 07:18:52 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.