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Offline Ladonia

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #70 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 07:41:44 »
All this talk of Mary and worship and idols is small beans compared to our belief that the Holy Eucharist does indeed contain Jesus's Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Face it, if the orthodox teaching on this is wrong, then every Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Maronite, Egyptian Coptic, or any other adherent of a Christian sect that believes this is going straight to hell because this belief would be the ultimate in idol worship.

But of course, like with Mary, it isn't true as we believe in the teachings of the Church that Jesus set up in this world, the ultimate arbiter of the Holy Scriptures. We believe in the authority it was given and continues to have to this very day, sustained through God's protection, tradition and the historical record. No, we are not the ones who have gone off on our own, but remain true to the One Catholic (Universal) Christian Church.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 07:51:33 by Ladonia »

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #70 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 07:41:44 »

Offline Rella

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #71 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 07:59:36 »


Please, read your bible.

Kensington,

I am a Protestant with family that are Roman Catholics.

There are 2 schools of thought to the bible reading idea.... birth are problematic.

First... we have Roman Catholic churches around here that do not encourage reading of the Holy word
and I do not know why other then they probably feel they can best instruct their flock if confusion on interpretation is brought to light.

I do not know that as fact but it seems reasonable... especially as we, who are on Grace Centered, often
bicker about correct interpretations when we see the actual written word.

Therefore i have family that attends mass weekly, or as often as they can, who do not even own a Bible.

BUT THE BIGGER ISSUE IS THIS


Just like the Protestant Bibles have many different versions because of changing translations... (Not meaning they leave anything out but change the wording to be more understandable as time goes on)

Catholic Bibles are many also.

HOWEVER.... The Catholic Bibles all have 73 total books in them, the Protestant 66 books.

I have in my house both.

In addition to the number of books, the Catholic one that I have here also has some chapters with additional verses.....

SO.... I only mention this because while you are telling folks to read their Bibles.... Most on here do.
But the Catholics have books the Protestants dont and a lot of what they believe is because of this.

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #71 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 07:59:36 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #72 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 08:32:39 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,
If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
if that's 'just' how catholics see themselves, then you are indeed blind.

I remember the years I was Catholic and remember using some of the same 'excuses' as many of you do here.   I also remember when I became 'unblind' - not only do your eyes see, but your heart and head do also.  It's a miracle,  but until it happens to you, you won't even believe it's a possibility - because you can't without Him. 

If God wanted Mary to have all of this what you call 'veneration', He'd have made it very clear within His word.  He didn't.  We aren't to make up things /  add to His word. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #73 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 09:47:55 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,
If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
if that's 'just' how catholics see themselves, then you are indeed blind.

I remember the years I was Catholic and remember using some of the same 'excuses' as many of you do here.   I also remember when I became 'unblind' - not only do your eyes see, but your heart and head do also.  It's a miracle,  but until it happens to you, you won't even believe it's a possibility - because you can't without Him. 

If God wanted Mary to have all of this what you call 'veneration', He'd have made it very clear within His word.  He didn't.  We aren't to make up things /  add to His word.
 

Yes he made it very clear, in fact he played down her importance in His life and calling to a large extent. I expect He knew what would happen in the future and the way many would see her in such an unbiblical way.

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #73 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 09:47:55 »

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #74 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 10:36:03 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #74 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 10:36:03 »



Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #75 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 15:38:38 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,
If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.
And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
Catholics everywhere do that.  for purposes on here, I'd say - get around on forums more,  Catholic forums and read what they say, especially about Mary. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #76 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 16:14:07 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #77 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 17:16:43 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

What part of the Hail Mary is worship?

Offline Hexalpa

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #78 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 17:17:48 »
::announcment:: There was this woman who a Angel talked to and without her accepting the task or there would not of become the Emmanuel Jesus ?



You really think Mary had a choice here? Did she ponder on the notion and then ultimately agree to the terms? The choice of Mary was entirely God's doing, it was His will and she was chosen because it was known to God that she would be obedient to the role she had been appointed to, but hypothetically if Mary had refused out of fear then God would have simply chosen another, the birth of Christ was to happen regardless of the vessel to which He was conceived in.
She had full free choice as does everyone.

God would of just chosen another one ? no ! not at all.

The chosen ones are not just anyone in the Bible are they, she came down one blood line I believe the Bible says.

The Bible does not point to a democracy type of thing and God never talks to just anyone or one who is not worthy for the task.

I am not trying to elevate Mary above her station, but I have come across many who come across as one to just try to reject her as just some incubator that just blew in one day.

It saddens me to see people who see the Bible as mainly in a worldly Light, when I was a protestant I never knew the OT much, but boy that OT sure does give light to the NT, as it's a blue print to the NT.

If one is at a loss to comprehend things in depth in the NT, one only has to look to the OT to find out where the NT is coming from.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #79 on: Thu Nov 05, 2015 - 18:26:30 »
::announcment:: There was this woman who a Angel talked to and without her accepting the task or there would not of become the Emmanuel Jesus ?
You really think Mary had a choice here? Did she ponder on the notion and then ultimately agree to the terms? The choice of Mary was entirely God's doing, it was His will and she was chosen because it was known to God that she would be obedient to the role she had been appointed to, but hypothetically if Mary had refused out of fear then God would have simply chosen another, the birth of Christ was to happen regardless of the vessel to which He was conceived in.
She had full free choice as does everyone.

God would of just chosen another one ? no ! not at all.

The chosen ones are not just anyone in the Bible are they, she came down one blood line I believe the Bible says.

The Bible does not point to a democracy type of thing and God never talks to just anyone or one who is not worthy for the task.

I am not trying to elevate Mary above her station, but I have come across many who come across as one to just try to reject her as just some incubator that just blew in one day.

It saddens me to see people who see the Bible as mainly in a worldly Light, when I was a protestant I never knew the OT much, but boy that OT sure does give light to the NT, as it's a blue print to the NT.

If one is at a loss to comprehend things in depth in the NT, one only has to look to the OT to find out where the NT is coming from.
I hear and read many Catholics who point to Mary's womb as an incubator. They are busy raising her up to a golden lined womb for Jesus to grow in.  I guess their bible tells them she sat on a throne thru-out her pregnancy never to lift a finger.  Even a little bit of common sense tells us that isn't true.  Yet they can't grasp it.

She is holy beyond holy... no, she was an every day normal young Jewish girl who loved God.  God knew this - He chose her long before the day the angel appeared to  her.  Catholics need to leave her womb alone and her sex life with her husband.  They spend more time on the life of Mary than they do the life and teachings of Jesus.  Mary has a very tiny part in the NT compared to Jesus, yet they make her a co-redeemer. NOT!  If God wanted her elevated He would have done it in His word.  It isn't in there. Nor is there a shadow cross next to Him on the hill - for her.  She is at the foot of the cross, being a mother in pain...He gave her to His 'favorite' Apostle, John, so she would be comforted and protected.

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #80 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 01:50:53 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

Offline Alan

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #81 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 06:48:41 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .


My mother and my aunt both make Mary their target of prayer and worship, it is how they were taught in church 70 years ago and how the church functions to this very day. Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as "mother of god"  ::frown::

Offline Pennie

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #82 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 06:59:02 »
http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm

http://www.prayerflowers.com/BlessedMary.htm

http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/prayers-to-virgin-mary.html

http://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/memorare.html

I'm surprised there are Catholics saying that Catholics don't pray to Mary. It's common knowledge.
It's like saying "The sky is NOT blue! Prove it's blue!"
I don't know how anyone can deny it with a straight face.
Well, it's the internet, so I guess facial expressions don't show.

I attended a Catholic church several times when I was very young and curious.
It was one of the really large ones. Yes, they most certainly did pray to Mary in that church.
It's a well-known, very common, expected part of Catholicism.
It's not hidden.
How can anyone seriously deny it?

"Like all prayers to Saints, our prayers to Virgin Mary rely on the Saints' special power to intercede for us before Christ and the Father. But since Mary has a unique role in salvation, and a unique relationship to the Trinity, our prayers to the Blessed Virgin also rely on her special power of intercession."

That first link actually lists official Catholic prayers to Mary:

A Child's Prayer To The Immaculate Heart Of Mary
A Farmer's Prayer To Mary
A Night Prayer To Our Blessed Mother
A Parish Priest's Prayer To Mary Most Holy
A Salutation To Mary (Saint John Eudes)
A Salutation To The Immaculate Heart
Act Of Oblation To The Blessed Virgin Mary
Acclamations In Praise Of Mary
Acclamations To Mary
Act Of Dedication To Our Lady
Act Of Entrustment To Mary
Act Of Entrustment To The Most Blessed Virgin Mary (For Young People)
Act Of Reparation For The First Saturdays Of The Month
Ah, My Blessed Mother... (To The Mother Of Sorrows)
Akathist Hymn To The Most Holy Mother Of God
An Election Prayer To Mary
Aspirations To Mary
Assumption Of Mary # 1
Assumption Of Mary # 2
At The Cross, Her Station Keeping... (Stabat Mater Dolorosa)
Atonement For Neglecting To Honor Mary
August Queen Of Heaven... (Our Lady, Queen Of Angels)
Ave Maris Stella.

......those are just the A's. The prayers to Mary are alphabetized.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #83 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 08:33:13 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

I said

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

Praying to Mary, which R Catholics do, is elevating her far above who she should be.  Idolising her when only Jesus should be lifted up. Jesus told us how to pray and that was to the Father though the Son.
Many RCatholics also bow and kneel to her statue and even kiss it.  ::eek::

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #84 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 10:34:26 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .


My mother and my aunt both make Mary their target of prayer and worship, it is how they were taught in church 70 years ago and how the church functions to this very day. Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as "mother of god"  ::frown::

Is Jesus God?

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #85 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 10:49:27 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

  Idolising her

What do you mean by " ODOLISING HER" ?


Offline Alan

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #86 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 11:17:07 »

My mother and my aunt both make Mary their target of prayer and worship, it is how they were taught in church 70 years ago and how the church functions to this very day. Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as "mother of god"  ::frown::

Is Jesus God?


Let's not go round that circle again.  ::tippinghat::

Offline wincam

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #87 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 11:29:30 »
::announcment:: There was this woman who a Angel talked to and without her accepting the task or there would not of become the Emmanuel Jesus ?
You really think Mary had a choice here? Did she ponder on the notion and then ultimately agree to the terms? The choice of Mary was entirely God's doing, it was His will and she was chosen because it was known to God that she would be obedient to the role she had been appointed to, but hypothetically if Mary had refused out of fear then God would have simply chosen another, the birth of Christ was to happen regardless of the vessel to which He was conceived in.
She had full free choice as does everyone.

God would of just chosen another one ? no ! not at all.

The chosen ones are not just anyone in the Bible are they, she came down one blood line I believe the Bible says.

The Bible does not point to a democracy type of thing and God never talks to just anyone or one who is not worthy for the task.

I am not trying to elevate Mary above her station, but I have come across many who come across as one to just try to reject her as just some incubator that just blew in one day.

It saddens me to see people who see the Bible as mainly in a worldly Light, when I was a protestant I never knew the OT much, but boy that OT sure does give light to the NT, as it's a blue print to the NT.

If one is at a loss to comprehend things in depth in the NT, one only has to look to the OT to find out where the NT is coming from.
I hear and read many Catholics who point to Mary's womb as an incubator. They are busy raising her up to a golden lined womb for Jesus to grow in.  I guess their bible tells them she sat on a throne thru-out her pregnancy never to lift a finger.  Even a little bit of common sense tells us that isn't true.  Yet they can't grasp it.

She is holy beyond holy... no, she was an every day normal young Jewish girl who loved God.  God knew this - He chose her long before the day the angel appeared to  her.  Catholics need to leave her womb alone and her sex life with her husband.  They spend more time on the life of Mary than they do the life and teachings of Jesus.  Mary has a very tiny part in the NT compared to Jesus, yet they make her a co-redeemer. NOT!  If God wanted her elevated He would have done it in His word.  It isn't in there. Nor is there a shadow cross next to Him on the hill - for her.  She is at the foot of the cross, being a mother in pain...He gave her to His 'favorite' Apostle, John, so she would be comforted and protected.


of course you have it all wrong but you don't know that or realise it - even in the very last line it was a disciple and not an Apostle and it certainly was not John and Mary was by no stretch of the imagination an everyday normal young Jewish girl - wincam 

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #88 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 11:44:55 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

  Idolising her

What do you mean by " ODOLISING HER" ?
 

Lifting her up to where she should not be and never was supposed to be by praying to her and by thinking that she is able to help you in anyway. Do you pray to Moses? Abraham? They were also chose by God for very special purposes. 

Offline wincam

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #89 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 11:52:26 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

  Idolising her

What do you mean by " ODOLISING HER" ?
 

Lifting her up to where she should not be and never was supposed to be by praying to her and by thinking that she is able to help you in anyway. Do you pray to Moses? Abraham? They were also chose by God for very special purposes.

no comparison possible - twinc

Offline Rella

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #90 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 11:58:53 »


Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

LexKnight

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #91 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 12:22:05 »


Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Not his point. He was addressing " Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as 'mother of god.'" In either case, the Lord said his mother, as well as his brothers and sisters, were found in those who did the Will of God, not those who shares genetic similarities. So spiritually, no Mary isn't the mother of the Lord, and therefore not the mother of God.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #92 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 12:47:53 »
Mary is esteemed as "mother of god"  ::frown::

Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Ok, so Jesus is God.

Is Mary His mother?

Offline chosenone

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #93 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 12:57:12 »
Mary is esteemed as "mother of god"  ::frown::

Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Ok, so Jesus is God.

Is Mary His mother?

God has no mother. She is one of those who were created and God/Jesus/The Holy spirit were the creator.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #94 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 12:57:28 »


Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Not his point. He was addressing " Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as 'mother of god.'" In either case, the Lord said his mother, as well as his brothers and sisters, were found in those who did the Will of God, not those who shares genetic similarities. So spiritually, no Mary isn't the mother of the Lord, and therefore not the mother of God.

"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"  - the heresy of Luke 1:43?

What is a "spiritual mother"?

Is a mother someone who gives birth to a child?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #95 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 12:59:04 »
Mary is esteemed as "mother of god"  ::frown::

Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Ok, so Jesus is God.

Is Mary His mother?

God has no mother. She is one of those who were created and God/Jesus/The Holy spirit were the creator.

A mother doesn't create her children.  She pro-creates them.  Which means, to take part, with God, in bringing forth someone into the world.

Mary was created by God.  That doesn't stop her from being Jesus' mother.  Jesus who is God.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #96 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:04:53 »
A mother doesn't create her children.  She pro-creates them.  Which means, to take part, with God, in bringing forth someone into the world.

Mary was created by God.  That doesn't stop her from being Jesus' mother.  Jesus who is God.

Ok. But...

I don't get why SHE is given honor and glory for what Jesus did?

She did her job, brought Him forth and raised Him. Awesome good stuff, but no different than the job of any other mother on the planet.

Its about the Christ, not His very good, kind, obedient mama.

Just like with your mom. I assume that she did well, I assume that she was kind and obedient to God; should she then get the praise of your boss instead of you, or get your raise instead of you, or be put up front of any kind of good deed that you do...because to someone on the outside looking in at your faith, that's what it looks like is happening.


LexKnight

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #97 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:16:55 »


Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Not his point. He was addressing " Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as 'mother of god.'" In either case, the Lord said his mother, as well as his brothers and sisters, were found in those who did the Will of God, not those who shares genetic similarities. So spiritually, no Mary isn't the mother of the Lord, and therefore not the mother of God.

"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"  - the heresy of Luke 1:43?

What is a "spiritual mother"?

Is a mother someone who gives birth to a child?

If you want to talk about the Lord's mother on a spiritual level, the closest candidate is the Holy Spirit.

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

If we're going to take the Lord literally here, and I know Roman Catholics tend to do such, then Mary is not the Lord's mother. The whole mother of God doctrine relies on the fact that the Lord would acknowledge her as His mother and gives her a position in Heaven that reflects such, yet when His mother and brothers were looking for Him and they let Him know, He pointed to His disciples and said "These are my mother and brothers." Did she birth Him? Yes. She and Joseph raise Him? Yes. Nonetheless, His understanding of relationships was not based in physical genetics, but in the spiritual.

Let me put it this way. Is Mary the mother of Jesus in the way of birthing Him and raising Him with Joseph when He was a child, and even mourning for Him when He was on that cross? Of Course, and even the Lord acknowledged that bond by giving her to John. Is Mary the mother of Jesus in the way Roman Catholics describes her to be? No.

Offline Paulus

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #98 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:18:56 »
we hate to see the way she is idolised,

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her as an idol , you are correct .

If by idolizing Mary you mean venerating her for all that God does through her and her singular co-operation with God's will , you are wrong .

As Mary prophesied : " For behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. "

And as Elizabeth proclaimed : "  Blessed art thou among women . "

I rejoice to confess the blessedness of Mary . That does not make me guilty of idolatry .....never has and never will .
 

Praying to her and treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol.

And who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .
 

So you dont pray to her or say Hail Marys?

Don't duck the question .

You said : " treating her as almost on a par with Jesus is indeed elevating her above where she should be, thus making her an idol. "

 Who does that ?

No one I know .

Perhaps you know some people who do .

If so , inform us who they are .

And I am referring to real people......not to people created in the imaginings of the minds of those who ought to know better .

  Idolising her

What do you mean by " ODOLISING HER" ?
 

Lifting her up to where she should not be and never was supposed to be

God lifted Mary to where she should be and where she was always supposed to be .

I am not going to let God down by negating his glorious work in what he has done for Mary .

You can debunk Christian tradition , but don't expect me to follow you down that false path .

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #99 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:37:58 »
A mother doesn't create her children.  She pro-creates them.  Which means, to take part, with God, in bringing forth someone into the world.

Mary was created by God.  That doesn't stop her from being Jesus' mother.  Jesus who is God.

Ok. But...

I don't get why SHE is given honor and glory for what Jesus did?

She isn't given honor and glory for what Jesus did.  She is given honor for what she did, which was play an order of high importance in bringing salvation to the world by saying yes to God and bringing forth the Savior from her womb.

She did her job, brought Him forth and raised Him. Awesome good stuff, but no different than the job of any other mother on the planet.

That was not her "job".  That was her special calling from God.  There is a big difference.  A job is something that you are bound to do by some sort of contract.  A calling is something a person freely assents to do.

Its about the Christ, not His very good, kind, obedient mama.

Its about Christ first and the fullness of his work, which made all believers part of His body, including Mary.  The body of Christ brings glory to God by saying yes to God every day.  Mary's yes was of prime significance within that body of Christ.

Just like with your mom. I assume that she did well, I assume that she was kind and obedient to God; should she then get the praise of your boss instead of you, or get your raise instead of you, or be put up front of any kind of good deed that you do...because to someone on the outside looking in at your faith, that's what it looks like is happening.

It only looks that way because those who are so opposed to the Catholic faith focus in on Mary and those other things about the Catholic faith that they don't understand and perceive as wrong.   And they bring that focus here to this board.

In other words, we give praise to God first, and Mary too.  And not just solely because of something she did 2015 years ago.

Sometime compare the number of paragraphs in the Catechism that deal with God to those that deal with Mary.  The number is probably like 75 to 1 more about God than about Mary.  But we don't put any less belief in those things that have been revealed regarding Mary.  Mary has an important role in the body of Christ and we embrace that.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:53:35 by Catholica »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #100 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:43:30 »


Is Jesus God?

Sigh........ ::doh::  Sorry Alan, will try to be very basic about this.

Catholica, obviously you do not think so...

However, have you not ever heard of the Holy Trinity.......??????????
Go pull out your Catholic Bible and compare the following verses.

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (This is the Holy Trinity.)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(It is understood that Jesus was the Word mentioned here and this says he is God.)

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (Again the Word... Jesus... is one with God, therefore is God.)

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Proof that Jesus is the Word)

John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 28:18-20 - And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  ( Note... no power was given to Mary)

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Our image.... not My image)

Not his point. He was addressing " Jesus becomes a mere sacrifice to them while Mary is esteemed as 'mother of god.'" In either case, the Lord said his mother, as well as his brothers and sisters, were found in those who did the Will of God, not those who shares genetic similarities. So spiritually, no Mary isn't the mother of the Lord, and therefore not the mother of God.

"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"  - the heresy of Luke 1:43?

What is a "spiritual mother"?

Is a mother someone who gives birth to a child?

If you want to talk about the Lord's mother on a spiritual level, the closest candidate is the Holy Spirit.

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

If we're going to take the Lord literally here, and I know Roman Catholics tend to do such, then Mary is not the Lord's mother. The whole mother of God doctrine relies on the fact that the Lord would acknowledge her as His mother and gives her a position in Heaven that reflects such, yet when His mother and brothers were looking for Him and they let Him know, He pointed to His disciples and said "These are my mother and brothers." Did she birth Him? Yes. She and Joseph raise Him? Yes. Nonetheless, His understanding of relationships was not based in physical genetics, but in the spiritual.

Mary was a disciple of Jesus, first of all.  Second of all, Jesus said "those who do the will of my Father in heaven are my mother and brothers and sisters".  Noting this, never has a mere non-divine person done the will of the Father in heaven as perfectly as Mary did.  The angel called her "kecharitomene" after all.  She is the Immaculate Conception.

Let me put it this way. Is Mary the mother of Jesus in the way of birthing Him and raising Him with Joseph when He was a child, and even mourning for Him when He was on that cross? Of Course, and even the Lord acknowledged that bond by giving her to John. Is Mary the mother of Jesus in the way Roman Catholics describes her to be? No.

She absolutely is who the Catholic Church describes her to be.  Someday you will see!

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #101 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:53:14 »
Quote
In other words, we give praise to God first, and Mary too.

But, why?  Doesn't God say we should not give our worship (praise) to anyone but Him?

PS. Job vs. calling is semantics.

My job as a mother is also my calling from God.  I have known it since I was a very little girl.

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #102 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 13:59:34 »
Mary was a disciple of Jesus, first of all.  Second of all, Jesus said "those who do the will of my Father in heaven are my mother and brothers and sisters".  Noting this, never has a mere non-divine person done the will of the Father in heaven as perfectly as Mary did.  The angel called her "kecharitomene" after all.  She is the Immaculate Conception.

Is this the official position of the Roman Church?

Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Clearly, I disagree with your stance. Yes Mary is included in the Kingdom of God, but all the things you praise her for happened prior to the Lord saying this, so he didn't see it the same way as you.

Offline Catholica

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #103 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 14:00:41 »
Quote
In other words, we give praise to God first, and Mary too.

But, why?  Doesn't God say we should not give our worship (praise) to anyone but Him?

It depends on what you mean by praise.  We don't worship Mary.  As I have said before.  Not all praise is worship.  I hope you can see that.  Otherwise I'd hate to be your children.

Jesus praised people.  It didn't mean that He worshiped them.

Mary was praised right in scripture.  Her soul magnifies the Lord.

PS. Job vs. calling is semantics.

My job as a mother is also my calling from God.  I have known it since I was a very little girl.

Its not semantics, and I have already explained why.  It wasn't your job to have children.  Someone whose job is to have children is called a concubine.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Wood ...... you believe it ?
« Reply #104 on: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 14:07:59 »
Quote
In other words, we give praise to God first, and Mary too.

But, why?  Doesn't God say we should not give our worship (praise) to anyone but Him?

It depends on what you mean by praise.  We don't worship Mary.  As I have said before.  Not all praise is worship.  I hope you can see that.  Otherwise I'd hate to be your children.

When you are talking about Praising God and then in the same sentence you say "and Mary too", the context of the word is within the kind that is to be reserved for Him alone.

If you say, "I just really think its cool what Mary did. I am proud of her obedience." thats different.  But, you said you (edit to fix an unfortunate word usage that I did not intend to use) praise (is what I meant to say) God and Mary too...
Quote
Its not semantics, and I have already explained why.  It wasn't your job to have children.  Someone whose job is to have children is called a concubine.

Yep. Semantics. You knew what I meant and chose to swoop in and distract the conversation with the need to split the hairs and bring up concubines.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 06, 2015 - 17:58:03 by MeMyself »

 

     
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