GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???  (Read 4882 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Adonijah0630

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Manna: 2
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« on: February 11, 2010, 05:38:52 PM »
Nonbelievers Too Can Be Saved, Says Pope

Refers to St. Augustine's Commentary on Psalm 136(137)

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 30, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith, says Benedict XVI
.

The Pope made this affirmation today at the general audience, commenting on a meditation written by St. Augustine (354-430).

See:  Pope Benedict XVI's general audience, Nov. 30  2005.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1260   "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Source:  Catechism of the Catholic Church online at the Vatican.

The following is a quote of Pope John Paul II's statement in English to those gathered in St. Peter's square on Wednesday, December 6th, 2000, in which he briefly summarized his message of the day, "FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE":

"Dear brothers and sisters, the theme of Our general audience during this great Jubilee year, has been the glory of the Trinity, and today we ask what we must do to ensure that the glory of the Trinity shines forth more fully in the world. In essence we are called to be converted and to believe in the Gospel. We are to accept the kingdom of God in our hearts, and to bear witness to it by word and deed. The kingdom indicates the loving presence and activity of God in the world and should be a source of serenity and confidence to our lives. The Gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the beatitudes: the poor in spirit; the pure in heart; those who will lovingly [endure] the sufferings of life; will enter God's kingdom. All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and His Church, contribute under the influence of grace, to the building of this kingdom. In the Lord's prayer we say 'Thy kingdom come'. May this be the hope that sustains us and inspires our Christian life and world."

Text of the Wednesday Audience message  "FOR US, THE KINGDOM IS GRACE" online at Zenit.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We confess with the Apostle Paul "that there is salvation in no other name" (Acts 4:12). The "Dominus Iesus" declaration, in the wake of Vatican II, shows that with this the salvation of non-Christians is not denied, but explains its ultimate source in Christ, in whom God and man are united. God gives light to all in a way appropriate to their interior and environmental situation, granting them saving grace through ways known to him (see "Dominus Iesus," VI, 20-21). The document clarifies the essential Christian elements, which do not obstruct the dialogue, but show its basis, because a dialogue without foundations would be destined to degenerate into empty verbosity.

Source:  POPE'S WORDS BEFORE THE "ANGELUS", VATICAN CITY, OCT. 1, 2000 (ZENIT.org)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. The Holy Spirit is not only present in other religions through authentic expressions of prayer. “The Spirit’s presence and activity

Christian Forums and Message Board

You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« on: February 11, 2010, 05:38:52 PM »

Offline Selene

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Manna: 148
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 06:18:05 PM »
Why are you surprised that the Catholic Church teaches that there is a possiblity that even those who are ignorant can get to the Kingdom of Heaven?  Didn't you know that when Jesus died on the cross, he forgave the Roman soldiers who killed him?  Those Roman soldiers were pagans.  So, why does it surpise you that Jesus forgave the pagans for killing him at the cross?  Don't you know that God will have mercy on whomever He wants to (See Romans 9:15).  The people of the Old Testament knew the one true God, but they didn't know Jesus because Jesus wasn't born during their time.  Surely, you don't think that Moses, David, and the prophets of the Old Testament are condemned to Hell because they don't know who Jesus was?  

Are you the one to judge who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell?  Only God can make that judgement.  And yes, even God can forgive those who are ignorant.  He can forgive whomever He wants to forgive (Romans 9:15).  
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 06:34:23 PM by Selene »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 06:18:05 PM »

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 06:42:22 PM »
95%+ of ALL Christians (Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, many Baptists - not sure about Pentecostals) believe that "even those who are ignorant can get to the Kingdom of Heaven"....but Adonijah made it as if that's a Catholic-thingy... Oh well LOL!!

Offline Adonijah0630

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 23
  • Manna: 2
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 08:00:56 PM »
I am not trying to make it a catholic thing...these quotes are from popes. So I take them to be representatives of the catholic faith. I am asking for an explanation (from scripture) as to how it can be asserted that you can not believe in Jesus, even going so far as to practice another religion, and be saved.

I am not trying to argue, accuse, or cause ill will. I asked a question. Thanks, all, and please accept an apology from me if I came off in the wrong way. That's why I asked for an explanation, called catholics my friends, and said it made me sad.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 08:00:56 PM »

Offline marie69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
  • Manna: 6
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 08:25:42 PM »
I have wondered about this before also. Not because I am Catholic, but because I love all mankind. I have a friend who is Jehovah Witness by birthright. I know he is aware of Christian belief. He does celebrate Christmas with his son because of the tradition, not the real meaning. But because of this, he is aware of why the holiday exists. Since he has only ever been to a Jehovah Witness temple, does he still have a chance at Heaven? He believes in God's word in the Old Testament. But he doesn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. He says Jesus was a very wise prophet, but does acknowledge he was on earth. Just not as the second entity of the Trinity.
Does his ignorance of the Christian faith save him? I don't know. I'm scared to say yes or no because I feel like I'm making his end of life judgement. Only God can make that decision. But I do pray for him. I know that Jesus is the key to heaven. But at the same time, I have a hard time thinking that God would turn away from someone who believed in him.
Just don't know......

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 08:25:42 PM »



Offline Selene

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1877
  • Manna: 148
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 09:13:05 PM »
I am not trying to make it a catholic thing...these quotes are from popes. So I take them to be representatives of the catholic faith. I am asking for an explanation (from scripture) as to how it can be asserted that you can not believe in Jesus, even going so far as to practice another religion, and be saved.

I am not trying to argue, accuse, or cause ill will. I asked a question. Thanks, all, and please accept an apology from me if I came off in the wrong way. That's why I asked for an explanation, called catholics my friends, and said it made me sad.
 

No one knows for certain where a person will go after death, not even the Catholic Church.  We know that God can forgive the ignorant so it is possible for a person who doesn't know Christ to be in Heaven.  It is up to God.  It was never up to us.  By the same token, being a Christian also doesn't guarantee that he/she will be in Heaven because the Bible also said that not all those who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 7:21).  As a matter of fact, we also don't know if Judas Iscariot is in Heaven or Hell.  Judas was one of the Apostles called by God.  He believed in Jesus as the Son of God.  The only thing the Bible says about Judas Iscariot was that he ( Judas Iscariot) went to his own place (Acts 1:25).  That doesn't tell us much.

Catholics always pray for God's mercy rather than for His justice.  If we were to go by God's justice, no one would be in Heaven because we are all sinners and therefore don't deserve Heaven.  
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 09:20:45 PM by Selene »

Offline trifecta

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 756
  • Manna: 24
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 06:35:40 AM »
Well said, Selene.

95%+ of ALL Christians (Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, many Baptists - not sure about Pentecostals) believe that "even those who are ignorant can get to the Kingdom of Heaven

Good point, Angelos.


Let me add that it is not only the Pope but the Church Fathers who said similar things.

Angelos

  • Guest
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 08:17:01 AM »
Dear Adonijah.

How about quoting Jesus

"31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.  33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

You really think there are no non-Christians who  "did for one of these least brothers of" Jesus??

Online mclees8

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3284
  • Manna: 110
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 09:31:50 AM »
No we are not the judge and, there maybe those who display a more Christ like spirit than many believers. This one thing I know. That without the gospel of Christ no one can be saved. Jesus said when the gospel is preached in all the world then the end shall come. We do not know when that day or hour will be. God is patient and long suffering not willing that any be lost. This speaks volumes to me.
Peter said in Acts 4:12 
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.#

Jesus Himself said in John 3:16 6 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1#

I would give careful thought to this before I would listen to some idea of men

Offline Mere Nick

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12398
  • Manna: 300
  • Gender: Male
  • Reckon you could make me some biscuits?
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2010, 09:42:08 AM »
There was a non-believer named Muhammed who I believe went to heaven when he died.  He was just a few days old when he shuffled off this mortal coil.

Online mclees8

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3284
  • Manna: 110
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2010, 09:43:52 AM »
 1st John 5: 10,13
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God

Online mclees8

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3284
  • Manna: 110
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2010, 09:50:05 AM »
There was a non-believer named Muhammed who I believe went to heaven when he died.  He was just a few days old when he shuffled off this mortal coil.


Now you are talking about an infant who is innocent

God bless

Offline Ryan2010

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Manna: 19
  • Gender: Male
  • Jesus Christ Conquers
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2010, 02:13:07 PM »
Most commentaries about this "subject" are usually based on or supported by:

Romans 2:14-16

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.


Again, it's not saying that you can be apostate etc.  Neither is this about infants.  I mean, this sort of touches on those conversations people have about if there's some dood living in a far away land that never heard about Jesus (think of all the people that lived on the other side of the planet just years after Christ's ascension...), what happens to him/her?

Though I don't subscribe to trying to spell out the parameters upon which one can be saved if they never heard of Jesus (cough* Aquinus) I don't really see much to fuss about in what Pope's have said regarding the issue.  And like Angelos said, it's hardly a "catholic" thing.  


From an inverted angel can you really say with full confidence (as if speaking for God personally) that God never saved one Native American Indian, not 1, because up to a certain point they never heard of Jesus?  

Did the guy that died but lived 500 miles from the disciples one year after Jesus' ascension automatically have to be condemned to hell simply because he got dealt a bad geographical card?  

I mean, you "could" say, "yep, they will all burn," but CAN you really say that with full confidence?  If not, might be something worth praying about/seek out.  











Offline marie69

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 72
  • Manna: 6
    • View Profile
Re: You can get to heaven without believing??? WHAT???
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2010, 04:23:57 PM »
I totally agree. There is only one Being who has the answer to this question. Anyone who thinks they know exactly what will happen when any of us dies, they are fooling themself. It is a good subject to ponder, but not put anyone down for their opinion. Not one of us can say this person will burn for eternity and this one will definitely go to Heaven. If you are worried about someone's eternity, then pray for them. Where they go when they die is not up to us.