Author Topic: Your Most Important Decision  (Read 1439 times)

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Offline Catholica

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 15:58:03 »
Here is a challenge. By this one can know truth and have understanding about their faith and salvation. For this one must want to know, and not just presume they know. Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word. These who are hungry for it will follow this lesson for what is more important than ones personal salvation. This admonition is as Paul who said "let everyone work out His own salvation with fear and trembling". Both Catholics and Protestants honor Paul to be a true apostle having wisdom concerning saving faith.  About 90% will not do it therefore a testimony they  do not desire to know Christ more, but rather trust in men. The other 10% reflect hunger for Christ and not satisfied but want to know more about what is the truth concerning their own understanding.  Proverbs 3: 5,6

 " trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not to thine own understanding but in all thine ways trust in Him and He shall direct thy path.

The 10% are His beloved

ah... this is EXACTLY what I did 35 or so yrs ago!  I had no idea about 'personal salvation'.  My prayer was to know whatever was HIS truth!  He answered my prayer and adopted me.

I guess that proves there are two gospels then?

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #70 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 15:58:03 »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #71 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 16:13:14 »
Why am I not surprised. Was it not already stated. 90 % would not take the challenge
What other foundation could be more solid Then Christ and His word and praying for more knowledge of Him  Is it not your decision.
There is no other way to God than thru Christ.  The Bible speaks of a remnant.  That is a small amount when compared to the whole of people ever existing. Christ made Himself the direct line to God, no one else.  There IS just 1 Way.

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #72 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 16:14:45 »
Here is a challenge. By this one can know truth and have understanding about their faith and salvation. For this one must want to know, and not just presume they know. Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word. These who are hungry for it will follow this lesson for what is more important than ones personal salvation. This admonition is as Paul who said "let everyone work out His own salvation with fear and trembling". Both Catholics and Protestants honor Paul to be a true apostle having wisdom concerning saving faith.  About 90% will not do it therefore a testimony they  do not desire to know Christ more, but rather trust in men. The other 10% reflect hunger for Christ and not satisfied but want to know more about what is the truth concerning their own understanding.  Proverbs 3: 5,6

 " trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not to thine own understanding but in all thine ways trust in Him and He shall direct thy path.

The 10% are His beloved

ah... this is EXACTLY what I did 35 or so yrs ago!  I had no idea about 'personal salvation'.  My prayer was to know whatever was HIS truth!  He answered my prayer and adopted me.

I guess that proves there are two gospels then?
What do YOU consider to be the 'Gospel'?  What does Paul say about it?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #73 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 16:30:42 »
The  longer that I have been a Christian, the more I realise that my faith is nothing to do with any particular church or denomination but about Jesus and following Him. I am pleased to have friends and family who belong to several different churches and denominations and I love that. Anyone who claims that theirs is the only true church is way off the mark and greatly deceived.

Of course, because there is no absolute truth in your land, or if there is it doesn't matter because people can believe whatever they want (unless it is the Catholic faith, of course) and they are just fine.  You "love that" division, as long as we can be nice to each other and not claim that anyone has only truth.

I feel like I have just described the secular "religion" called "tolerance".  The only people that "tolerance religion" is intolerant of is people who insist on dealing in absolutes.
Yes, there IS absolute truth - it just isn't of man. It isn't about belonging to an earthly group by a specific name, but being part of an adopted family.

re-read her post - can you 'read' what she posted?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 16:45:54 »
Ok, my first challenge then is to find an example of someone in the Bible who did the challenge.  If not, then the challenge itself is unbiblical.  Can you point out someone who did, since you know the scriptures so well?
Paul.  He had heard nothing of the CC at the time he met Jesus. Nor had he accepted the word of any of the Apostles. 

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #74 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 16:45:54 »



Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #75 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 17:05:40 »
I trust the men in the Church that Jesus founded more than I trust the man Mike Clees, and I do so with a clear conscience.

Besides, I do take the challenge, using scripture to know Jesus better.  I just don't do the dumb thing of throwing out what Jesus taught as proclaimed by the Catholic Church to do it.  I call it my "short cut to deeper knowledge of Jesus".
how did Peter get a deeper knowledge of Jesus?  John?  by taking a 'short cut' given by man or direct from the Source?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #76 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 17:12:30 »
Here is a challenge. By this one can know truth and have understanding about their faith and salvation. For this one must want to know, and not just presume they know. Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word. These who are hungry for it will follow this lesson for what is more important than ones personal salvation. This admonition is as Paul who said "let everyone work out His own salvation with fear and trembling". Both Catholics and Protestants honor Paul to be a true apostle having wisdom concerning saving faith.  About 90% will not do it therefore a testimony they  do not desire to know Christ more, but rather trust in men. The other 10% reflect hunger for Christ and not satisfied but want to know more about what is the truth concerning their own understanding.  Proverbs 3: 5,6

 " trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not to thine own understanding but in all thine ways trust in Him and He shall direct thy path.

The 10% are His beloved

ah... this is EXACTLY what I did 35 or so yrs ago!  I had no idea about 'personal salvation'.  My prayer was to know whatever was HIS truth!  He answered my prayer and adopted me.

I guess that proves there are two gospels then?
What do YOU consider to be the 'Gospel'?  What does Paul say about it?


So let me get this straight. You and Mike both did the challenge, both prayed for God to lead you into truth and both did so long, long ago. And after all that time your views diverged radically. You believe that there are two gospels, one for the Gentiles and one for the Jews. He probably doesn't believe that core teaching. Like most people he believes that there was only one gospel.

So between you and Mike, you are evidence that the challenge fails to produce what you expected.

One thing you do have in common is that you ran into me and other faithful Catholic on this board. Perhaps we are God's answer to your prayer after all these years!  He is finally giving you the grace to know the truth through learning about the Catholic Church. Unfortunately both of your hearts are quite hardened against it

Offline Catholica

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #77 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 17:15:56 »
I trust the men in the Church that Jesus founded more than I trust the man Mike Clees, and I do so with a clear conscience.

Besides, I do take the challenge, using scripture to know Jesus better.  I just don't do the dumb thing of throwing out what Jesus taught as proclaimed by the Catholic Church to do it.  I call it my "short cut to deeper knowledge of Jesus".
how did Peter get a deeper knowledge of Jesus?  John?  by taking a 'short cut' given by man or direct from the Source?

Peter was privileged to walk the Earth with the incarnate Lord. After Jesus ascended he left the apostles to baptize and preach. In the Church age, like those who converted on the day of Pentecost, we convert through the work of the Church and gain faith through hearing that same gospel preached.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #78 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 17:19:28 »
The  longer that I have been a Christian, the more I realise that my faith is nothing to do with any particular church or denomination but about Jesus and following Him. I am pleased to have friends and family who belong to several different churches and denominations and I love that. Anyone who claims that theirs is the only true church is way off the mark and greatly deceived.

Of course, because there is no absolute truth in your land, or if there is it doesn't matter because people can believe whatever they want (unless it is the Catholic faith, of course) and they are just fine.  You "love that" division, as long as we can be nice to each other and not claim that anyone has only truth.

I feel like I have just described the secular "religion" called "tolerance".  The only people that "tolerance religion" is intolerant of is people who insist on dealing in absolutes.

You seem to have forgotten about some Catholics who were here on this board not so long ago who wiped the floor with what other Catholics believe.
So if you want to call the kettle black, why don't you have a look in your own land first?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #79 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 19:27:36 »
I trust the men in the Church that Jesus founded more than I trust the man Mike Clees, and I do so with a clear conscience.

Besides, I do take the challenge, using scripture to know Jesus better.  I just don't do the dumb thing of throwing out what Jesus taught as proclaimed by the Catholic Church to do it.  I call it my "short cut to deeper knowledge of Jesus".
how did Peter get a deeper knowledge of Jesus?  John?  by taking a 'short cut' given by man or direct from the Source?

Peter was privileged to walk the Earth with the incarnate Lord. After Jesus ascended he left the apostles to baptize and preach.
yes, Peter did... this is what you asked:

  You have yet to show me an example from the Bible that someone in the Bible took your challenge.  If you cannot, then the challenge demands that I end the challenge.  It demands that you end the challenge as well.
Peter and Paul are in the Bible.  God gave us the direct Source to Him - Jesus.


In the Church age, like those who converted on the day of Pentecost, we convert through the work of the Church and gain faith through hearing that same gospel preached
convert to what? thru WORK? What Gospel? What did Peter preach?  What did Paul preach?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #80 on: Mon Jan 12, 2015 - 20:10:48 »
Cath you can no loner deny  knowledge of the challenge. you have read it  and you have also denied it.  How shall you stand in that day

Where in the Bible does it say what happened to a man who learned of the challenge but denied that it was biblical?  What did God say when the man claimed that there was no one in the Bible who took the challenge, and so told God such at his judgment?

Your challenge is self-refuting, Mike.

You can no longer deny knowledge of the Catholic faith.  It has been proclaimed to you and you have also denied it.  How shall you stand in that day
are you insinuating that he has gotten knowledge of it from your  posts?  I think that'd be a negative...
I don't deny knowledge of it - has nothing to do with this forum tho.  I doubt it does for him either.
What day/judgment do you mean?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #81 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 07:41:15 »
The challenge is still there and your choice is also still there. You want to claim me of some evil. I sitll say I have done no evil. You are a man who would say that not all truth is in the Bible. Yet does not the Bible itself challenge us to know it. You say skeeter and I claim the challenge yet we believe two different things. Does not God know us from our hearts. Does he not know you Cath? I feel safe in saying that Both skeeter and I are saved and love the same Lord to keep His commandments. You would say not because you believe that keeping His commandments is to trust men more than His word. No I would not agree there are two gospels but to what evil does skeeter believe. Does he not know the truth of our salvation. I was not bias in my challendge. it was for all because I know that there is no one earthly church denomination ( individual organized church order) is Gods true church but the Lord knows who are His. Salvation is through Him and not the systems of men.  He will not say You are RCC so enter in to the kingdom or will he say you are Baptist or Methodist so enter into the kingdom. The Lord knows who are His and always has who love Him in Spirit and in truth. Neither have Skeeter or I done any evil except the Lord should know it.  I say to you what I have said, you have trusted men more than Jesus and His word and that you cannot deny it. So how will you stand?
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 07:48:19 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #82 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 09:52:55 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles.  And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.

For example, the Bereans had the Church (in the person of Paul and his associates) come to them and proclaim Jesus to them.  ONLY then, these people of the book were able to see Christ in their scriptures, in the OT.  That is how Christ set up the Church to function; that is the function of the Church.  Note that Bibles didn't fall from the sky when Jesus ascended to heaven.


Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #83 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 10:40:23 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles. And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.
oh yes, they both did. Peter - Matt 16.  You need to do more studying on Paul - Paul did not  find Christ from the 'Church' or the Apostles.  Christ did not need the 'Church' to draw anyone to Him.  There was no church then.

Peter and Paul met Christ by the teachings of the apostles?

Offline Catholica

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #84 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 11:49:28 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles. And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.
oh yes, they both did. Peter - Matt 16.  You need to do more studying on Paul - Paul did not  find Christ from the 'Church' or the Apostles.  Christ did not need the 'Church' to draw anyone to Him.  There was no church then.

Peter and Paul met Christ by the teachings of the apostles?

Paul did in fact "go up to confer with Peter and James".

Galatians 1
“After three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother” (vv. 18–19). 

And there are parallels in the book of Acts between Peter's ministry and Paul's ministry, seemingly intentionally pointed out.  Paul needed to be in communion with the apostles to be taken seriously and the book of Acts frames their ministries in such a way to make sure that is known.  In addition, Paul insists that there is only one Gospel in Galatians 1 also:

No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

And there certainly is a Church then.  Don't you know that the "Church" are those people are united to Christ, those members of their body?  Paul was the Church.  Peter was the Church.  Thousands were added to the Church on the day of Pentecost. There certainly was a Church, and that Church spread the gospel, and that is how Jesus intended it to be.

And there is just one Church because the Church is Christ's body, and Christ only had one body.  Not two Churches and not two gospels.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #85 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 12:30:07 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles.  And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.

For example, the Bereans had the Church (in the person of Paul and his associates) come to them and proclaim Jesus to them.  ONLY then, these people of the book were able to see Christ in their scriptures, in the OT.  That is how Christ set up the Church to function; that is the function of the Church.  Note that Bibles didn't fall from the sky when Jesus ascended to heaven.

Here is your problem. It’s the same one that Nicodemus had. He did no comprehend the things of the spirit either. Jesus actually says we must meet with Him in the spirit.  Listen to what the Lord said to the women at the well.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him worship him.24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.   John 4:19-24

Did not Jesus say he must return to the Father.
Did he not say The Father and I are one. Do we not proclaim Him as being God incarnate

Jesus said to Nicodemus the flesh is flesh and the Spirit is spirit. When we are born again we enter into a spiritual relationship with Him.  He also said my words are spirit and the life, the flesh profits nothing.

The command is that we meet Him in the spirit. I have not said anything that is unbiblical and is how Christ said we must meet Him. This is personal intimacy between the believer and Jesus.
And is very much now as it was then. I know we can meet Him in the spirit because I have met with Him this way ever since I was born again. Paul said there were those who have a form of godliness but deny the power there of.   He also said to be carnaly minded is enmity against God. This is your problem which is unbelief. Unbelief will destroy the church. The power of God is with those who know Him in the spirit. 


 

« Last Edit: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 12:41:39 by mclees8 »

Offline Catholica

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #86 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 14:26:14 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles.  And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.

For example, the Bereans had the Church (in the person of Paul and his associates) come to them and proclaim Jesus to them.  ONLY then, these people of the book were able to see Christ in their scriptures, in the OT.  That is how Christ set up the Church to function; that is the function of the Church.  Note that Bibles didn't fall from the sky when Jesus ascended to heaven.

Here is your problem. It’s the same one that Nicodemus had. He did no comprehend the things of the spirit either. Jesus actually says we must meet with Him in the spirit.  Listen to what the Lord said to the women at the well.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him worship him.24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.   John 4:19-24

Did not Jesus say he must return to the Father.
Did he not say The Father and I are one. Do we not proclaim Him as being God incarnate

Jesus said to Nicodemus the flesh is flesh and the Spirit is spirit. When we are born again we enter into a spiritual relationship with Him.  He also said my words are spirit and the life, the flesh profits nothing.

The command is that we meet Him in the spirit. I have not said anything that is unbiblical and is how Christ said we must meet Him. This is personal intimacy between the believer and Jesus.
And is very much now as it was then. I know we can meet Him in the spirit because I have met with Him this way ever since I was born again. Paul said there were those who have a form of godliness but deny the power there of.   He also said to be carnaly minded is enmity against God. This is your problem which is unbelief. Unbelief will destroy the church. The power of God is with those who know Him in the spirit.

I probably understand it better than you think I do, Mike. 

The passage says that we will worship the Lord in spirit and in Truth.  They are not two separate things. 

For example, you and skeeter both believe that you worship the Lord in spirit, but only (at most) one of you (if that) could be worshiping the Lord in spirit AND truth, because you don't share the same truth.  You share the same Bible, sure, but at least one of you is interpreting it falsely.  So at least one of you is not worshiping in spirit AND truth.

And that is proof that the "challenge" is a failure.  Because if the challenge was not a failure then both of you would have come to the same "truth" independently.  And frankly, that doesn't happen within the model you are proposing.  How do you deal with that?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #87 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 16:26:32 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles. And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.
oh yes, they both did. Peter - Matt 16.  You need to do more studying on Paul - Paul did not  find Christ from the 'Church' or the Apostles.  Christ did not need the 'Church' to draw anyone to Him.  There was no church then.

Peter and Paul met Christ by the teachings of the apostles?



Paul did in fact "go up to confer with Peter and James".
so this is when Peter and Paul MET Christ?  Is that what you're saying?


Galatians 1
After three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother” (vv. 18–19).   
note the first 3 words of Gal 1.  So, prior to that time Paul did not know Christ?
Does that confuse you?  You might want to look up to your words in red and blue in your above post (included in this quote @ 8:52) to what was being discussed.

In addition, Paul insists that there is only one Gospel in Galatians 1 also:

No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
note that he is talking about the time of his writing.  I found it so interesting that you even put Paul's words in vs 8 in bold... a vs so often quoted to Catholics by non Catholics...


And there certainly is a Church then.  Don't you know that the "Church" are those people are united to Christ, those members of their body?  Paul was the Church.  Peter was the Church.  Thousands were added to the Church on the day of Pentecost. There certainly was a Church, and that Church spread the gospel, and that is how Jesus intended it to be.

And there is just one Church because the Church is Christ's body, and Christ only had one body.  Not two Churches and not two gospels.
so again you are saying there was a church before Peter and / or Paul met Christ? (There was no 'Church' in the NT at all.)  The church was (and is) the assembly of the body of Christ, not the 'Church'.   
Peter was not THE Church, nor was Paul.  They were part of the body of Christ and not even that until they MET Him (spiritually).
What was Peter teaching at Pentecost?
What gospel did that Church spread? (your post above at 10:49)

Offline mclees8

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #88 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 17:20:06 »
Skeeter, here is Mike's "challenge":

Quote
Take time to step out of the arena of Catholic or protestant to meet with Christ in the spirit. Then study the scriptures asking Jesus to give more knowledge and understanding of His word.

Neither Peter nor Paul "met with Christ in the Spirit".  Peter met with Christ in the flesh, not in the Spirit.  Paul had Christ come to him in an appirition, which is different from what Mike is saying.

We cannot choose to meet Christ today the way that they met Christ.  Christ had to come to them in the manner that He did, and it is not in a way that we can induce today.  Thus Peter nor Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "took the challenge".  Rather, they met Christ through the Church, by the preaching of the apostles.  And THEN and only then did they come to truly know Christ in the scriptures.

For example, the Bereans had the Church (in the person of Paul and his associates) come to them and proclaim Jesus to them.  ONLY then, these people of the book were able to see Christ in their scriptures, in the OT.  That is how Christ set up the Church to function; that is the function of the Church.  Note that Bibles didn't fall from the sky when Jesus ascended to heaven.

Here is your problem. It’s the same one that Nicodemus had. He did no comprehend the things of the spirit either. Jesus actually says we must meet with Him in the spirit.  Listen to what the Lord said to the women at the well.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him worship him.24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.   John 4:19-24

Did not Jesus say he must return to the Father.
Did he not say The Father and I are one. Do we not proclaim Him as being God incarnate

Jesus said to Nicodemus the flesh is flesh and the Spirit is spirit. When we are born again we enter into a spiritual relationship with Him.  He also said my words are spirit and the life, the flesh profits nothing.

The command is that we meet Him in the spirit. I have not said anything that is unbiblical and is how Christ said we must meet Him. This is personal intimacy between the believer and Jesus.
And is very much now as it was then. I know we can meet Him in the spirit because I have met with Him this way ever since I was born again. Paul said there were those who have a form of godliness but deny the power there of.   He also said to be carnaly minded is enmity against God. This is your problem which is unbelief. Unbelief will destroy the church. The power of God is with those who know Him in the spirit.

I probably understand it better than you think I do, Mike. 

The passage says that we will worship the Lord in spirit and in Truth.  They are not two separate things. 

For example, you and skeeter both believe that you worship the Lord in spirit, but only (at most) one of you (if that) could be worshiping the Lord in spirit AND truth, because you don't share the same truth.  You share the same Bible, sure, but at least one of you is interpreting it falsely.  So at least one of you is not worshiping in spirit AND truth.

And that is proof that the "challenge" is a failure.  Because if the challenge was not a failure then both of you would have come to the same "truth" independently.  And frankly, that doesn't happen within the model you are proposing.  How do you deal with that?

You have no proof of failure . You are desperately trying to find a way to discredit the challenge to ease your own mind about it. If one has a false understanding, that does not make a lie in less it misleads and is deliberate deception. The question is in what one believes is truth and no deception intended. Therefore one can believe a thing wrongly yet still approach God in truth. God is truth and there is no Lie in God therefore one cannot approach and worship bearing any lie. Aninias and Safira tride to worship bearing a lie and died for it.  An offering is a form of worship. No one can worship God in truth if a lie is in him

The women at the well concerning where one worships was of a false understanding and intended no lie concerning her understanding about true worship. Im not sure what you issue is about false interpretation here. 

Offline skeeter

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #89 on: Tue Jan 13, 2015 - 18:45:45 »
I probably understand it better than you think I do, Mike. 

The passage says that we will worship the Lord in spirit and in Truth.  They are not two separate things. 

For example, you and skeeter both believe that you worship the Lord in spirit, but only (at most) one of you (if that) could be worshiping the Lord in spirit AND truth, because you don't share the same truth.  You share the same Bible, sure, but at least one of you is interpreting it falsely.  So at least one of you is not worshiping in spirit AND truth.

And that is proof that the "challenge" is a failure.  Because if the challenge was not a failure then both of you would have come to the same "truth" independently.  And frankly, that doesn't happen within the model you are proposing.  How do you deal with that?
there's been no proof that it failed given by you.  That you don't understand or believe it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It happens w/in the 'model proposed' millions of times over and has been happening since the time of Jesus on earth.
In the previous post you seemed so confused and didn't stick with the guidelines given, so I'd doubt anything you took from it or made of it.

Offline Tyler

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Re: Your Most Important Decision
« Reply #90 on: Tue Feb 10, 2015 - 11:43:01 »
Jesus said to Nicodemus the flesh is flesh and the Spirit is spirit. When we are born again we enter into a spiritual relationship with Him.  He also said my words are spirit and the life, the flesh profits nothing.

The command is that we meet Him in the spirit. I have not said anything that is unbiblical and is how Christ said we must meet Him. This is personal intimacy between the believer and Jesus.
And is very much now as it was then. I know we can meet Him in the spirit because I have met with Him this way ever since I was born again. Paul said there were those who have a form of godliness but deny the power there of.   He also said to be carnaly minded is enmity against God. This is your problem which is unbelief. Unbelief will destroy the church. The power of God is with those who know Him in the spirit."

"Flesh is flesh" Jesus was speaking to a Jew who cherished being the flesh (sarx) of Abraham. Why? Well, Nicodemus believed that the Jew would be the prominent hombre in an earthy kingdom. They still believe this today as well as misguided premillennialist.
Jesus explained to this "teacher of Israel" that being the flesh of Abraham meant absolutely nothing in His kingdom that would be "spiritual."

Now, hold that thought----Did Nicodemus ask Jesus one thing about a "kingdom"? No---but Jesus knew the thought process of this "ruler of the Jew." Nicodemus had seen the miracles of Jesus, so he had added 2 + 2 and came up with the "Son of David" in the Jewish Scriptures. Just could be that this Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.

Bingo! Nick thought----If you are the Messiah when are you going to get organized and begin to rule in your kingdom?
Why--"you my Jewish friend MUST be born again." Anyone who has read the text in John 3 can see by Nichodemus' answer that he was one brick short of a load---
"Must I enter into my mother's womb the second time?" is the answer of a West Virginia ridge runner chasing a Blue tick coon dog bare footed, across the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Whoever translated "born of the "S pirit  (Holy) on the s pirit" (human) knew about as much Greek as I. Here, we have interpreted the impact of Holy Spirit upon man's spirit, and  this is exactly how the Augustinian/Calvinistic doctrine of  Holy Spirit regeneration has completely destroyed this text.

« Last Edit: Tue Feb 10, 2015 - 11:55:49 by Tyler »

 

     
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