Author Topic: Biblical marriage  (Read 18063 times)

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Offline spurly

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« on: Wed Oct 22, 2003 - 18:08:02 »
In the days of Jesus, and I don't know how far back into Biblical times this goes, if a couple had sex, they were considered married.  As a matter of fact, if one raped a virgin, they were to pay a bride price and take that person as their wife.

I know that the Bible has terms for sex outside of the marriage bond (adultery) and other sexual perversions (animals, incest, same sex, etc.).  However, I don't remember any particular words for pre-marital sex.  In the Bible that was a concept that didn't exist.  If you have sex, it is assumed that you are married.

So here's my question.  If a couple is having sex today, we encourage them to break off the relationship.  In so doing, are we asking them to break off a marriage relationship in the eyes of God?  Would it be better if we encouraged them to get officially married, since in God's eyes there are already married anyway.

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« on: Wed Oct 22, 2003 - 18:08:02 »

Offline grace42day

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« Reply #1 on: Wed Oct 22, 2003 - 21:44:54 »
Interesting question for one more scholarly than me!  
It brings to mind some questions of my own.  Not to distract from your question - but I would appreciate attention given to it eventually, after we explore your question.  And that is, since the only Biblical grounds for divorce is adultery, if the one betrayed refuses to divorce the one committing the adultery so that the one who committed the deed files for divorce - does that mean that 1) the couple is still married in the eyes of God since for any other reason, the man unscriptually "putting away his wife" causes her to committ adultery?  and 2)  if he then marries another, does that free his first wife to remarry or is she still bound despite his rejection of her and unscriptual putting her away?

These questions have haunted me for years.  The elders of my home congregation informed me that since I refused to divorce my husband and he filed on me, then he "put me away" and therefore, I was sentenced to spend the remainder of my life alone because we had a unscriptual divorce.  Is that true??

Offline janine

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« Reply #2 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 04:12:16 »
Gracie-

Short answer?  Hold your ears, honey:

NO![/i][/u]

For both G42D and Spurly:

There are the Bible's answers, which may or may not give you a final answer; there are examples you may find of how conscientious people managed to work it out IRL; and there are different "flavors" of churches of Christ which handle stuff like this different ways.

Is the main thrust of this thread to be a look at what the Bible says and whether it matters a fig today?

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« Reply #2 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 04:12:16 »

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #3 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 05:18:50 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]These questions have haunted me for years.  The elders of my home congregation informed me that since I refused to divorce my husband and he filed on me, then he "put me away" and therefore, I was sentenced to spend the remainder of my life alone because we had a unscriptual divorce.  Is that true??[/quote]

G42D,

As Janine said---NO!.

The elders are not correct in what they are telling you.  They are only giving you what they have been taught over the years by those before who alos did not understand what Jesus was saying.

There are three major reasons for this, IMO:  
1) bad Greek Translation into English which does not properly render what Jesus said in light of how those who were hearing Jesus would have understood what Jesus was saying
2) a terrible lack of knowledge in the CoC regarding how Jews of the 1st century towards women, divorce, and several other things that have a direct effect on how we should understand what Jesus said
3)  the inability of 20th/21st century elders to shed the baggage of traditions that have built up over the centuries of misunderstanding of these verses, and to take a fresh look at these verses in the light of what we now know rather than what we have always thought we knew.

I would highly recommend to anyone wanting to learn more about this to order a small book, Marriage is God's Plan,from http://www.starbible.com, Star Bible Publishing,  or from the author:  Dyrel W. Collins, P.O. Box 9, South Bend, Texas 76182.  According to the back page, the book is available for $2.95 plus shipping.

I know Dyrel as an aquaintance at ACU Lectureship and have talked to him about his book and marriage/divorce/marriage issues.

Star Bible is normally considered one of the prime publishers of the "traditional" view books/tracts in the CoC but on this book, has broken ranks with that view.  On the back cover of the book, Alvin Jennings, owner of Star Bible, says this in a statement about this book and Dyrel:  Dyerl Collins has been a special friend and brother for many years.  He is a man whose constant desire has always been to "speak the truth in love" on whatever subject he undertakes to teach.
...................Our purpose in assisting in the publication of this study is hopefully to clarify issues and definitions, and consequently to give new hope and joy among those who have suffered the tragedies associated with broken marriages.

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« Reply #3 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 05:18:50 »

Offline WileyClarkson

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« Reply #4 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 05:43:26 »
Spurly,

As a matter of fact, if one raped a virgin, they were to pay a bride price and take that person as their wife.


To understand what was being said and why this action was required, you have to understand how men viewed women during that time frame.

Females were on the level of property at that time in history.  When a man raped a virgin daughter, he had to take her for his wife because he had forcefully taken away her value.  She was damaged property.  The father would have a hard time finding a suitable husband for his damaged property/daughterher and that was to be an expense for ever that he would have to bear.  What is amazing is how other "belief" systems viewed this.  In one belief system that co-existed with the Jewish system, the raped daughter was put to death!  I have not found where a man and a woman are automatically married just because they slept with each other or the female was raped.

BTW, the word you are looking for is "fornication" and is used separately of "adultry" in the NKJV, and others.  Fornication refers to both individuals being in a not-married state.  Adultry requires at least one of the two participants to already be married.

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« Reply #4 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 05:43:26 »



Offline charlie

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« Reply #5 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 06:55:44 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]So here's my question.  If a couple is having sex today, we encourage them to break off the relationship.  In so doing, are we asking them to break off a marriage relationship in the eyes of God?  Would it be better if we encouraged them to get officially married, since in God's eyes there are already married anyway.
[/quote]

Good question. Paul talks about being united with a prostitute in 1 Cor 6:15-16:
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[/quote]
Now maybe Paul was just being dramatic in trying to get people to quit having sex with prostitutes when he used the same language that was used to described the relationship between Adam and Eve. Or maybe he was trying to impress upon them the seriousness of sex that they seem to have willfully forgotten. It seems ridiculous to us today to think of a high-school romp in the back of a fogged-up car as resulting in marriage. But maybe we've forgotten it just the same as the Corinthians. Maybe Paul would say the exact same thing to us.

Sex and marriage. There's a close connection between them that it is dangerous and confusing to try to sever.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]since the only Biblical grounds for divorce is adultery, if the one betrayed refuses to divorce the one committing the adultery so that the one who committed the deed files for divorce - does that mean that 1) the couple is still married in the eyes of God since for any other reason, the man unscriptually "putting away his wife" causes her to committ adultery?  and 2)  if he then marries another, does that free his first wife to remarry or is she still bound despite his rejection of her and unscriptual putting her away?
[/quote]

Grace,
It's a tangled web, but maybe this can help...

1. the couple is not married, but they are still obligated to remain single or be reconciled to one another, according to 1 Cor. 7:10-11 if the one who left did not do so because of sexual immorality
2. when the man chose to not be reconciled, but rather to marry again, he destroyed any chance of reconciliation to the first wife according to Deut 24:1-4. There's nothing for her to go back to; it's as though her husband died. She is free to marry someone else if she wants, but he must be a Christian according to 1 Cor. 7:39.

Sins may have been committed. Sins can be forgiven with repentance and the blood of Jesus. But care must be taken not to commit more sins in one's zeal to 'undo' the first sins.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The elders of my home congregation informed me that since I refused to divorce my husband and he filed on me, then he "put me away" and therefore, I was sentenced to spend the remainder of my life alone because we had a unscriptual divorce.  Is that true??[/quote]

There's a lot more to it than that. Was your husband a Christian? Did your husband remarry? What is his current congregation doing about his abandoning you? If your home congregation's eldership want to stick their nose in this business, they'd better be prepared to get up close and personal rather than taking pot shots from who knows where. MDR is messy business. You don't want a contractor who is afraid of getting his hands dirty.

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« Reply #5 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 06:55:44 »

Offline janine

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« Reply #6 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 07:36:25 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]
Grace,
It's a tangled web, but maybe this can help...

1. the couple is not married, but they are still obligated to remain single or be reconciled to one another, according to 1 Cor. 7:10-11 if the one who left did not do so because of sexual immorality
2. when the man chose to not be reconciled, but rather to marry again, he destroyed any chance of reconciliation to the first wife according to Deut 24:1-4. There's nothing for her to go back to; it's as though her husband died. She is free to marry someone else if she wants, but he must be a Christian according to 1 Cor. 7:39.[/quote]
Seems to me if the two are still un-marriageable to other people then they are still married to each other.

If they are not married to each other then they are not married, and thus free to marry others, although may not be the best choice to marry, if I want a partner free from "issues".

You'r tapdancing with that "innocent" versus "guilty" or "offending" partner doctrine here.

Offline charlie

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« Reply #7 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 07:52:36 »
No tapdancing intended or implied. 1 Cor 7:10-11 is a most illuminating passage:

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.[/quote]

There is no mention of guilty/innocent party stuff here. If a woman divorces her husband she is unmarried. But just because she is not married doesn't necessarily mean that she's free to marry someone else. Her first obligation is to her husband to whom she made a life-long vow of commitment, even though she is attempting to legally destroy it.

Some have used this verse to prove that the two are still "married in God's eyes." I don't think this is the case. Rather, they are unmarried, but not free to marry someone else. Now maybe you don't see a semantic difference between the two phrases. Maybe there isn't one.

The guilty/innocent party stuff comes in when we try to insert Jesus' exception into this rule. Sexual immorality does give someone the right to divorce their spouse and marry another without sin. But having the 'guilty party' remain single even after the 'innocent party' remarries is reading way too much into it. Remarriage is permissible when reconciliation becomes impossible. After all, the whole and only purpose for staying unmarried after a divorce is reconciliation.

boringoldguy

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« Reply #8 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 09:07:54 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]After all, the whole and only purpose for staying unmarried after a divorce is reconciliation.[/quote]
Where do you get this?   I don't mean to be argumentative, but I sometimes assume we know the reasons for certain things when we don't really.

The Bible nowhere tells us just what it takes to be married.
I know some people who believe that having sex is both essential and sufficient.     In other words, once a couple has sex, they are married no matter what either of them thinks, so those teenagers in the back seat might as well set up housekeeping, but a couple who have been through a ceremonial marriage and not consumated it aren't married.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that.

Some religious bodies have their own rules or traditions about what it takes to be married, and usually there is some element of consent or intent on the part of both parties.    

I have always thought, from looking at the Bible and seeing the wide variety of ways that marriages seem to have occurred, that this was one of the few areas I can acknowledge as being "cultural."

In Isaac's day, among a nomadic people who lived a very simple life, it seems that he just took Rebecca home and they were married.    However, in the same general time period but among different and more settled people, Jacob and Leah had a big feast for the wedding.    And we know in Christ's time, the wedding at Cana seemed to have quite a bit of tradition around it.    So it seems to me that a couple get married by doing whatever their society requires to put them under obligation to one another.

If that's moving in together and using the same last name, then so be it.   If it requires a trip to the County Clerk, then you need to do it.

However, having said that, I have to express some sympathy for the notion that having sex probably puts you under obligation to the other person.    Not only Genesis but the I Cor passage seem to make that plain.   And I don't think Paul was just using a figure of speech there.

A couple of years ago I made the mistake of letting my wife drag me to a Tom Cruise movie (I can't stand him) called Vanilla Sky, certainly one of the worst movies I ever saw except perhaps every other movie Cruise was ever in.   In this movie, which was intended to be "deep",  the only character who expresses anything like a moral sentiment is a woman who is portrayed as a raving lunatic.   At one point, she tells Cruise "when you sleep with someone, your body makes a promise."     I don't know whether pretty-boy Tommy would agree with that, but it was the only true statement in the movie.

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« Reply #8 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 09:07:54 »

Offline hmb

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« Reply #9 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 09:10:10 »
Almost every state, and certainly here in TX, couples who live together may, depending on the circumstances, be considered to be in a "common law marriage."  No formalities are required.  So, how would the elders in the original post react to that?  "Sorry, we don't care what the law is, you aren't married unless you have a ceremony."?  Where in the NT does it say there has to be a "wedding ceremony" as we know it?  Elders are supposed to be shephers (read:  leaders) of the flock, not nit-pickers.

Offline grace42day

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« Reply #10 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 09:49:39 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]The elders of my home congregation informed me that since I refused to divorce my husband and he filed on me, then he "put me away" and therefore, I was sentenced to spend the remainder of my life alone because we had a unscriptual divorce.  Is that true??[/quote]

There's a lot more to it than that. Was your husband a Christian? Did your husband remarry? What is his current congregation doing about his abandoning you? If your home congregation's eldership want to stick their nose in this business, they'd better be prepared to get up close and personal rather than taking pot shots from who knows where. MDR is messy business. You don't want a contractor who is afraid of getting his hands dirty.[/quote]

My husband, whose grandfather and father were elders of this congregation and were pillars of the community, held in high esteem, even outside the congregation, was raised in the church.  He claimed Christianity.
He remarried shortly after the divorce - not even awaiting the required by law time before remarrying.
The congregation in question - members of this congregation informed me that I could no longer be associated with because 6 months after the divorce I fell into a relationship with a man that was sinful.  I didn't say that right - I had a sinful relationship with a man 6 months after the divorce.  The same congregation that was embarrassed and shunned me because of my sinful relationship embraced the engaged couple prior to their marriage while my two children and I tried to pick up the shattered pieces of our lives.

If you detect a note of bitterness... actually it's a symphony!  And I chastise myself for my bitterness... it comes and goes... it just so happens that currently, it is here in a rage.  I'm sorry if it shows so blatantly.

Offline Peggy J

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« Reply #11 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 12:07:46 »
Wiley, I agree with your statement that you have not found where a man and a woman are automatically married just because they slept with each other or the female was raped.
And Charlie's comment about a high-school romp in the back of a fogged-up car as resulting in marriage.   I don't think their intent is marriage in alot of cases, and isn't that what is meant by intent "of leaving your father and mother and becoming one flesh"  I always assumed and was taught that that was the difference.  Not everyone that a young boy has sex with, he is married to.  

Your comments, please.  God bless.   :hug:

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« Reply #12 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 14:02:03 »
Neither, I suspect, did the Corinthian fellows intend to marry the prostitutes Paul spoke of.    And while I don't think they were married, I think something happened that transcended a romp in the back seat of a fogged up chariot.

Offline charlie

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« Reply #13 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 15:41:38 »
Agreed, BOG. I don't think Paul is teaching that having sex with prostitutes makes you married to them, but that, as a member of the body of Christ, you are trying to force Jesus to have sex with prostitutes. Basically, he's saying, "you have to choose whose body you want to be a part of: Christ's or a prostitute's."

Grace,
Face-to-face Christian family counseling is what you need; not short messages from almost-strangers on this board. Bless your heart, but you've been through a mess. I can understand your feelings of bitterness.
The eldership, and really the whole membership, failed you and your ex-husband in this situation. When he cheated on you, there must have been signs. Especially someone so well-known in the congregation. And if, after not having been confronted by the congregation for his infidelity, he filed for divorce, didn't the elders know about that? That alone is a sin, because a Christian is taking you, another Christian to 'court'. The church should have been there for you both to help you reconcile your differences when you were having difficulties. There must have been many reasons for him feeling that he should have an affair or get a divorce. Was no one but you there to help you both work through them? And when he decided to bail out, if they had done nothing up until that point, the elders or the congregation should have stepped in and told him not to go through with it, or risk discipline. Apparently, they didn't do even that. From what you're saying, they decided to turn a blind but slightly sympathetic eye to the whole thing until you fell into temptation with another relationship. For six months, they apparently did nothing to get your husband to resolve things with you, leaving you in emotional limbo. In their defense, they probably didn't think enough about their own responsibilities to imagine that there was anything they could do. They were probably raised on the notion that you were noble and admirable in your situation as long as you didn't remarry, and then BOOM, you're out of the church. While it's true that it would have been a sin for you to remarry while things with your husband were still unresolved, the church let you slowly be crushed under that weight until temptation finally overcame you. And only then did they give you any attention; this time, in the form of condemnation. I say, shame on them!

But now, your husband married another woman. And though you've been in another relationship, I can tell you want to do the right thing, but don't want to be bound to unscriptural laws or have to cowtoe to an eldership that has already cast you off, even though this congregation obviously still means a lot to you. I would encourage you to talk to your family about this, read scripture and pray about it. When biblical principles and issues about what you can and can't do come up, ask for simple scriptures to back them up. Write them all down. Look for inconsistencies and for a pragmatic solution. It's supposed to make sense, after all. I'm not going to tell you I know all the answers or that I know exactly what will fix everything. But from what I've heard, it sounds to me like you are free to remarry, but you definitely have to overcome this bitterness inside you. Your kids are looking to you for answers and guidance. Show them a mom who has faith in a loving God who expects us to do our best.

Offline grace42day

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« Reply #14 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 17:20:21 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Grace,
Face-to-face Christian family counseling is what you need;

And if, after not having been confronted by the congregation for his infidelity, he filed for divorce, didn't the elders know about that?

Was no one but you there to help you both work through them?

From what you're saying, they decided to turn a blind but slightly sympathetic eye to the whole thing until you fell into temptation with another relationship. For six months, they apparently did nothing to get your husband to resolve things with you, leaving you in emotional limbo.[/quote]
These bits & pieces I've been sharing all took place over 10 years ago.  About 8 years ago I was living in Dallas, attending Skillman church.  The Single's minister there was concerned by my inability to control my emotions during the sermon.  I was fine during class, but sitting in the auditorium was a constant and painful reminder that I had been rejected by my husband because I was surrounded by couples and families and I could not stay focused on the sermon.  Therefore, he requested that the church send me to Christian counseling.  I spent 4 sessions with a Christian counselor that literally changed my life!  Those sessions were the catalyst of the events to follow that would forever change how I perceive God.  Like that article that spoke of Duty to Desire.  
Well, since then, somehow I've lost my grip.  I've slipped back into my old way of life... totally consumed by the cares of my family and the stress and trials of everyday life.  Typically, I am quite good at warding off depression - having learned the warning signs so as to head it off well in advance of it taking this drastic a hold on me.  This time, it's as though I have lost the will to fight.  When I become as depressed as I am feeling now, all the negative issues of my past rear up to re-launch old attacks.  Issues of which I have long healed seem to be able to re-open old scars.  See, I refer to them as scars, not wounds, because they have previously healed.
I don't know why I'm feeling so overwhelmed and why past issues have come back to re-haunt me, but the fact of the matter is just that, they are past issues that for the past 5 - 6 years have not been issues to me, leaving me to feel I had at last been victorious over them once & for all!  (sigh)  Apparently not.

Yes, the elders knew he had filed.  That is why they told me that I had been put away and was therefore not free to remarry - they chastised me for not filing on him so that we could have had a scriptural divorce.  As it turned out, since I refused to divorce him, he filed on me so that he could marry her.  The law requires a waiting period of 60 days after your divorce before you can marry another.  They did not wait the allotted time.  

We, my husband and I, were good friends with another couple there at that congregation.  The man went to my husband and spoke with him.  I was working the graveyard shift at a local convenient store.  The friend came to the store visibly upset and begged me not to return home for my own safety.  He literally feared for my life, believing that my husband would try to kill me if I were to return home.  Well, I'm here, so that never happened, nor do I feel it was ever really a threat.  I think my husband was emphasizing his feelings that our friend took too literally.  Anyway, the point is, yes, he felt his decision a reasonable solution to problems we were having at the time.  I'm not saying I'm faultless in that I did nothing to make him feel that way -- but I do hold to that he is still responsible for his own decisions.  What I mean is, what ever failure on my part does not justify him in his deliberate decision to be involved in a sinful relationship.  We both would have benefited greatly from Christian counseling back then.

The relationship I fell into began six months after the divorce was final.  That fact does not make it any less sinful.  However, he had already remarried and I had already been told I could never remarry... resolution was already out of the question by the time this relationship began.  That relationship lasted nine months... just long enough to create some major problems that took me 6 years to recover from - he was a drug addicted, alcoholic, and violent con artist.  By the time I managed to get him out of my life, I was over $10,000 in debt.  Perhaps knowing this much about my experience can serve as a warning to others to do whatever it takes to avoid falling into such relationships!  

But, honestly, I have some current issues taking place in my home that involve my daughter and her husband.  The affects of what I am witnessing is that I am beginning to sink ever deeper into a depression - seeming to be lacking the will to fight this time.  I really don't think my past issues are true issues at this point in time.  I honestly feel that my past issues are regurgitating because the opportunity has presented itself, due to my current state of mind... my resistance is quite low.  I apologize for becoming so emotional all over this board, and you are right, this is not the place to air such intense emotions.  I apologize to you and to all who have read them.  And I thank you for your compassionate response.  Your understanding of the situation has helped me considerably - and it's helped me to recognize that I am allowing past issues to re-surface, actually distracting from the true issues.

Offline janine

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« Reply #15 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 21:38:40 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.[/quote][/quote]
Is that "separate" the same word as being loosed or untied or unbound - is it "divorced"?

Offline memmy

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« Reply #16 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 21:48:36 »
Well Grace, If you did not share this with us then how can we know how to pray for you? ???

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to pray for you! :pray:

Memmy :)

Offline janine

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« Reply #17 on: Thu Oct 23, 2003 - 22:03:39 »
Gracie- no one is saying "don't get emotional here"!

It's just that all we're good for is to let off stream with, and to love you.  Counseling you need to get from someone with skin on.  

God bless you, sugar.

Offline charlie

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« Reply #18 on: Fri Oct 24, 2003 - 07:37:38 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--][!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.[/quote][/quote]
Is that "separate" the same word as being loosed or untied or unbound - is it "divorced"?[/quote]
Today, we would call it 'divorce' simply because it results in someone being 'unmarried.' Back then, though, a man could go up to his wife after she burned his toast and say, "I divorce you, get out," and out she went. Without his support, but without the freedom to remarry, she basically had one option for income at that point. That is why Moses' mentioning of writs of divorce had progressed to a command to give a writ of divorce. Divorce papers were originally meant to be a method whereby a divorced woman could prove that her former husband had no claim on her and could thus remarry. They were originally a GOOD thing!

Offline grace42day

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« Reply #19 on: Fri Oct 24, 2003 - 13:39:39 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Gracie- no one is saying "don't get emotional here"![/quote]
Thanks.  I know that.  Y'all have never made me feel otherwise.  I came to that conclusion myself.  I mean, I made that decision after considering the affect my exposure may have on others.  If it's obvious I'm have serious enough problems that someone would recommend I get counseling, then I've exposed more than I intended.  
While somewhat embarrassing, I've survived much worse, so I'll live through this too, I suppose!   :)
I hope I didn't make anyone too uncomfortable with my rantings, ramblings and what nots!  Thanks for your patience, compassion and kind remarks!   :hug:
Most of all, thanks for your prayers!

Offline janine

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« Reply #20 on: Fri Oct 24, 2003 - 20:51:13 »
:inlove:  :inlove:  :inlove:

You're welcome.

:inlove:  :inlove:  :inlove:

Offline Richard

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« Reply #21 on: Fri Oct 24, 2003 - 20:59:04 »
Gracie,
The only thing that has made me uncomfortable is my own inability to reach out and help you.
I'm like that...I'm a fixer.  I don't like situations I can't fix.

That's why I spend so much of my time frustrated. :bangingheadagainstwall:  :bangingheadagainstwall:

If blowing off steam here helps you...I say blow away!

Peace,

Richard

Offline grace42day

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« Reply #22 on: Tue Oct 28, 2003 - 08:01:53 »
[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]...uncomfortable is my own inability to reach out and help you.[/quote]
:hug:  :givingkiss:  
I appreciate the thought and intent...
And I pray a special portion of His grace on you because you feel so deeply the pain of others.  I hope you give as much attention to getting your cup refilled...   thank you for your tender heart and sweet spirit!

Offline Richard

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« Reply #23 on: Tue Oct 28, 2003 - 19:52:26 »
Thanks Grace.
I find that the less attention I pay to my cup, the more it overflows.  God's Grace is abundant.

Peace,

Richard

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« Reply #24 on: Thu Oct 30, 2003 - 17:16:46 »
In the Middle Ages in Europe a marriage was considered valid if it had been consummated; on a couple's wedding night, it was customary for friends to stand outside the door, listening for sounds of the couple coming together, in case the marriage's consummation was ever called into question. This happened when Henry VIII married his deceased brother Arthur's wife, Catharine of Aragon; Henry claimed the marriage had never been consummated, which left Henry free to take Catherine to wife.

I'm a veritable fountain of totally useless knowledge.

Pax.

Offline Jones518

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« Reply #25 on: Fri Nov 14, 2003 - 13:39:08 »
I encourage you to take a look at this if you haven't already.  Give it a read and see what you think about it.

Jonesy

Offline grace42day

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« Reply #26 on: Fri Nov 14, 2003 - 16:41:11 »
I think that it is long - but well worth the read.  

His arguments are both convincing and liberating.  It saddens me that reconciliation is completely out of the question.  I think I've known that for a long time, probably from the beginning of the end.  I just didn't want to admit it.  
But his comments here regarding what the scriptures really do say and the forthright explanation of what that means in application shouts to me to let him go and that I can move on and to stop waiting for him to come and tell me that it was all a mistake.

This aspect of my life has been on hold for so long... wondering what I should do.  Wondering what God expects of me.  Weighing what the elders of one congregation had to say versus what the elders of another advised me.  None convinced me of my role in my own future.  I feel this article spells it out accurately and, while it still hurts, I know that letting go is His Will.  I am convinced of that now.  I haven't been convinced until now.  ouch... it's almost like going to a funeral after all these years.

And it's not just the letting go that I get out of this article.  It's the release from the bonds placed on me to remain single.  Now... I don't have to be afraid of remarriage - should that blessing be in His Will for me again.  It feels as though my sentence has been lifted.  So it is a bitter-sweet feeling that this article generates for me.  To let go when I didn't want the divorce in the first place and to be freed from the sentence that forbid me to remarry since my husband divorced me instead of me using my "free pass" to a scriptural divorce.  

Well, I've learned a lot about God, about grace, about myself and about love during these years of uncertainty.  You know what?  I'm gonna be okay.  More than okay.  I can freely partake in His blessings guilt free.

Thanks.  Thanks for pulling this old article back up.  I've printed it out to read again and look up the scriptures and really let it soak deep into my heart, my mind and my spirit.  Thank you.

Offline St. Rubicon

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« Reply #27 on: Fri Nov 14, 2003 - 21:28:22 »
John 4

18Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

If Jesus means by "having" a man that they have a sexual relationship, then he doesn't buy the "intercourse = marriage" point of view.  Any thoughts?

Offline standnawe

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« Reply #28 on: Sun Feb 08, 2004 - 20:23:38 »
Just my 2 cents , if it helps a little, then good.

In the bible there is fornication , and I believe that is sex outside marriage, sex with a married person would be adultry.

Fornication does not make a marriage,its rather the vow that does , and the actual act seals it. If fornication could make a marriage , then rape would be a  marriage, and thats just not Gods way of bringing two together , Im sure.

There has to be the vow and sexual act together to complete the union.. So I see it this way.(The will to committ to each other as husband and wife.) We are not animals!

So if betrothed ones have sex before the cerimony, I think they are married in Gods eyes. The cerimony would make them married in mans eyes.

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« Reply #29 on: Thu Feb 12, 2004 - 19:39:33 »
Being new to the board, I am just now scrolling through this particular thread.  I deliberately put it off a few days after joining because I didn't want to read a lot of "stuff" you usually hear from CoC types about marriage and divorce!  I also went through a divorce about 10 years ago and it was, of course, the most devastating experience of my life. I can really relate to Grace and what she has been going through.  Just when you think you've dealt with it all, something else comes along to grab you; often, that "something" is from someone in the church.  Anyway, I was fortunate enough to get involved with a Divorce Recovery group at a Baptist Church across the street from where I regularly worshipped.  I found comfort and hope, as well as assistance in looking at what scripture has to say re: this.  If you haven't experienced divorce, the best thing you can do for someone who is dealing with it is to listen to them, pray for them, and connect them up with another Christian who has also experienced divorce and dealt with it successfully.  DO NOT give advice, because you really don't know what you're talking about - no matter how many verses from the Bible you can quote about marriage and divorce!
Thanks for letting me get this off my chest! :)

Offline OkiMar

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« Reply #30 on: Sun Feb 15, 2004 - 23:49:23 »
Gracie,
I too think the elders were incorrect.  You took the high road and desired reconciliation.  I think that is so admirable.  Your husband had no grounds to divorce you, so he could not "put you away."  Just because you cannot presently go through your state's legal formalities of putting your husband away (he took it out of your hands), does not mean that you are forever bound to him.

Offline lonelyland

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Re: Biblical marriage
« Reply #31 on: Wed Jun 22, 2011 - 23:14:14 »
Spurly,


BTW, the word you are looking for is "fornication" and is used separately of "adultry" in the NKJV, and others.  Fornication refers to both individuals being in a not-married state.  Adultry requires at least one of the two participants to already be married.

Exactly- dead on!!! ::preachit::

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Re: Biblical marriage
« Reply #32 on: Sat Jun 25, 2011 - 00:46:22 »
In the Bible that was a concept that didn't exist.  If you have sex, it is assumed that you are married.
In "Bible times" people had sex just like people have sex today. That's why you can reference something about rape, that's why adultery is mentioned, that's why prostitutes are mentioned.

People are sexual beings and they have always had - and acted upon - sexual urges.

The reason a man had to take a woman whom he made pregnant as his wife is because she had no other form of support. Today, that is not the case and it is questionable whether you want your daughter to marry a boy who has so little self control. That, it seems, is just dumb.

Offline wife4life

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Re: Biblical marriage
« Reply #33 on: Mon Dec 26, 2011 - 15:49:09 »
The if's and but's and questions of culture over time are "muddying" the matter at hand.  Read the red letter in the New Testament and it is all very clear that intention and salvation are what is important.  At least that is what I have learned.  So back to the original question.  If a man and a woman have sex out of wedlock, they can repent and ask for forgiveness and then marry and do it right.

Do I believe that by having sex you may be biblically married, yes in a sense.  I believe that is what becoming one flesh is.  In any event it is all about making the decision to do what is right going forward.

Offline Vianca2

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Re: Biblical marriage
« Reply #34 on: Tue Dec 27, 2011 - 13:33:23 »
In the days of Jesus, and I don't know how far back into Biblical times this goes, if a couple had sex, they were considered married.  As a matter of fact, if one raped a virgin, they were to pay a bride price and take that person as their wife.

I know that the Bible has terms for sex outside of the marriage bond (adultery) and other sexual perversions (animals, incest, same sex, etc.).  However, I don't remember any particular words for pre-marital sex.  In the Bible that was a concept that didn't exist.  If you have sex, it is assumed that you are married.

So here's my question.  If a couple is having sex today, we encourage them to break off the relationship.  In so doing, are we asking them to break off a marriage relationship in the eyes of God?  Would it be better if we encouraged them to get officially married, since in God's eyes there are already married anyway.
This is a perfect example as to why the Bible must be taken in its appropriate context.  There was no premarital sex  (or very rare) in Bible times.  And a man could put away his wife if she wasn't a virgin.  So I can understand why this law existed.  But if this law were true today they would be a lot of force marriages and the divorce rate would probably double.