Author Topic: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?  (Read 10159 times)

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Offline thislittlelight

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Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 15:37:39 »
Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on this.  From what I've read, it seems to be a common issue but is generally not considered to be adultery or something that a person is biblically permitted to divorce their spouse over.  

So, do you personally consider it to be adultery or not?  I wonder if one of the reasons that it's NOT considered adultery by the general Christian population is because it's so prevalent--hence there would be a lot more divorces if it was termed "adultery."    

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Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 15:37:39 »

larry2

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #1 on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 15:59:40 »
Pornography is not adultery, the desire it produces in adherents of it leads to lust and adultery in a heart; not physical adultery the law requires as evidence.

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 17:02:16 »
As far as God is concerned it is adultery.

Legally it isn't illegal.

And as far as the Ancient Jews...it was worse than adultery, it was considered a perversion.

To me personally,
It is sheer nonsense and stupidity to view this stuff.  It makes guys impotent and women a whore. The images are kept and recycled forever.  For guys the need for even more perverted porn to get the same arousal effect is tantamount to a heroin addict. In the end the natural attraction and arousal to a woman is destroyed and guys end up either as a child molester, homosexual, or only attracted to the nastiest women that are in existence.

why on earth someone would want to go down any of those roads is beyond me.

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #2 on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 17:02:16 »

Offline JERRY C

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 20:34:09 »
 ::frown::

interesting question?

reminds me of a Reba song --

Oh on a park bench in the middle of July
We sat and watched the children play
If it was the heat or the noise
He didn't have too much to say

Then with a move of his eyes
A move that could have made the wind stand still
He took my hand in his and said the words
That I never will forget

He said have you ever cheated on me
Has there been someone else

Is there someone you love more than me
Someone you can't forget
If his memory is opened again
Let it be chased away by time
He said have you ever cheated on me
I said only in my mind


How can I tell him
The time we spent together
Was time between friends
There's just somethings I can talk about with you
That I can't just talk with him
How can I tell him
That somewhere in the cards it was meant for us to be
Why am I blushing in front of him now
Is it you or the heat

He said have you ever cheated on me
Has there been someone else
Is there someone you love more than me
Someone you can't forget
If his memory is opened again
Let it be chased away by time
He said have you ever cheated on me
I said only in my mind

Darling have you ever cheated on me
And I said only in my mind


(Reba McEntire, Only In My Mind)
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 20:47:39 by JERRY C »

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #3 on: Thu Nov 17, 2011 - 20:34:09 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 02:56:11 »
Wise replies all you guys.John wise words.
To me as a woman, I see that the Bible does says it is adultery of the heart, and as God looks on the heart, it is VERY serious.
As for whether it is something that a spouse should consider divorce for, in certain circumstance I would say yes. I know a lady who God clearly led to divorce her husband after she found out that he had repeatedly been looking at porn on the internet with his small children playing in the same room, while his wife was out. She also made sure, through the courts, that he was only allowed supervised access after that time, and the judge clearly agreed that he could not trusted so he granted it.

If a spouse is repeatedly using porn, is unrepentant, and has no intention of stopping, then I would seriously consider divorce if I were the wife, or at the very least a separation until he decided that he was going to try to stop. If one spouse has been looking at porn for a long time the chances are that the marriage is deeply damaged, and the other spouse very deeply hurt anyway, and the sex life will probably be non existant or very dysfunctional with him needing the porn to get aroused. Its something that any person in this position woud need to pray about, because only God knows the future and whether that spouse is going to stop or repent.
However when I hear about marriages where this has been going on for 20 or more years I have to ask myself WHY ARE YOU STILL WITH THEM?
It can get to the point where by turning a blind eye and doing nothing we are enabling them to carry on. My mother did this with my dad, magazines in his case(no internet then). I am very different from her, I wouldnt put up with it. I found his pile of mags when I was about 10 or 11.

 I remember reading about a man who looked at porn for years, and it was only when his wfe had had enough, and seperated, that he was shocked enough to stop. It was the jolt that he needed to come to his senses.


I don't think that guys who do this realise the deep hurt that it causes to their wives or the deep damage they are doing to themselves. Its one of Satans favourite weapons in my view, to distort sex and break up marriages. I remember one lady saying that to her it was WORSE than if her husband had had a physical affair, because at least then there was only one woman to compete with instead of thousands. Made me want to cry when I read that.  ::cryingtears::
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 03:08:54 by chosenone »

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 02:56:11 »



Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 06:04:50 »
I just couldn't imagine living with a man with this kind of a addiction because it seems like a sickness. Physical adultery is a sickness too, men get addicted to that as well.

Depending on the severity of it, although I consider it adultery, I wouldn't divorce over it. Feelings are so irrational and a family is more important than my feelings of my husband getting his jollies.

But if it were out of control, I would try to help him before I left the situation. But I just couldn't imagine even leaving him over that. I suppose I am too forgiving sometimes. It depends on the woman, some will take it as hurtful, I see it more as a sickness. I wouldn't be hurt as much as I would feel sorry for him.

It effects us all differently, we don't all feel the same. I understand a woman leaving over this, but I just can't justify it for myself. Especially breaking up a family over a fantasy that isn't even real. I am glad that we do have the choice to stay or leave because like I said some women can't tolerate it.

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 06:04:50 »

Offline tennman

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 09:23:34 »
I think it's important to note that men aren't the only ones who view and strugle with pornography. One of the ignored stats of the last 10 years is that 40 percent of pornography viewers are women. It could be more now. There are even ministries for "addicted" women (one being called "Dirty Girls"). Their messages and warnings are the mirror opposite of what we hear porn causes in men - porn addicted women objectify men and only relate to men on a sexual level. It does the same to them. Women are not above it.

Offline thislittlelight

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 20:25:16 »
Thank you for all the responses.  My opinion is that it depends on the situation and the feelings of the offended spouse.  But that's just my opinion.  I'd feel much less betrayed with my husband looking at pornography than going to a strip club and getting a lap dance.  Neither is okay, but one seems to be more of a betrayal to me than the other.  Some women may feel otherwise.  I've done some google searching and it seems that the general consensus of the Christian community is that it's not something that a Christian can divorce their spouse over.  I get so angry when I read stories of completely devastated women who are told that they will be sinning if they divorce over this.  I think if it's to the level of an addiction, then a spouse can choose to separate or divorce over it.   

Offline chosenone

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 20:58:33 »
thislittlelight
Maybe the reason why Christians generally say that it isn't something that a spouse can/should leave or divorce over is because so many Christians do look at porn!
I agree with you that in certain circumstances (maybe where it is severe and unrepentant) it can be grounds for divorce.

We do need to remember that the word that Jesus gives as an allowable reason for divorce is 'pornea', which is there the word porn comes from, and it doesn't mean just adultery, but can mean many different kinds of sexual sin. Serious porn use, in my opinion, could easily come under that heading. Many think that the only allowable reason for divorce is adultery, but if that was the case, Jesus would have used the word that only means adultery.  If I were in that position I would not take any notice of what other believers said or what their opinion was, but I would go to the Bible and to God directly.
If, after prayer and maybe a period of separation, counselling and challenging the one who was into porn, they still refused to stop(or even try) then I would definitely prayerfully consider the divorce option.

As you say, it is devastating for the spouse and marriage (and children), and who are we to tell anyone in that position that they cannot leave their awful situation. 

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Nov 18, 2011 - 20:58:33 »

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 01:24:21 »
  So, do you personally consider it to be adultery or not?  I wonder if one of the reasons that it's NOT considered adultery by the general Christian population is because it's so prevalent--hence there would be a lot more divorces if it was termed "adultery."   Â

Don't forget this part:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment......" (Matthew 5, right before the lust = adultery part )

How about what Jesus said here? Should we start to imprison and execute everyone who gets angry with another person? He just equated anger to murder, didn't He?

If Jesus was saying you could divorce your spouse because of heart adultery (in whatever form) I think every marriage in the world is potetnially in trouble. I'm certain that nearly every man who has been married longer than a month has at some point looked upon another woman lustfully, if even for a moment.

How about you ladies? Do you ever have "relationship lust" of another man? Do you ever see some Hallmark movie and wish your husband was in some way more like that man on TV or the movies? DO you think that this is somehow less adulterous than a man looking at another woman?
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 01:58:58 by drspinko »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #10 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 02:32:12 »
  So, do you personally consider it to be adultery or not?  I wonder if one of the reasons that it's NOT considered adultery by the general Christian population is because it's so prevalent--hence there would be a lot more divorces if it was termed "adultery."   Â

Don't forget this part:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment......" (Matthew 5, right before the lust = adultery part )

How about what Jesus said here? Should we start to imprison and execute everyone who gets angry with another person? He just equated anger to murder, didn't He?

If Jesus was saying you could divorce your spouse because of heart adultery (in whatever form) I think every marriage in the world is potetnially in trouble. I'm certain that nearly every man who has been married longer than a month has at some point looked upon another woman lustfully, if even for a moment.

How about you ladies? Do you ever have "relationship lust" of another man? Do you ever see some Hallmark movie and wish your husband was in some way more like that man on TV or the movies? DO you think that this is somehow less adulterous than a man looking at another woman?


Hi
yes I do see what you are saying, but I dont think that a man who occasionally looks too long at a woman can be compared to a man who constantly watches porn day after day for years and years and allows it to seriously damage his wife and marriage and his relationship with God. No one here is suggesting that a woman can divorce her husband for occasionally looking at other women.

Oh and in answer to your question, no, I dont see anything in movies or in books that makes me want my husband to be like that man.I really have no interest in any other man. ::smile::

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 06:41:00 »
What about people that watch porn before marriage? How can that be adultery if you have no spouse?

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #12 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 09:16:36 »
It is cheating on your future spouse. God is eternal.

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #13 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 10:35:27 »

Don't forget this part:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment......" (Matthew 5, right before the lust = adultery part )

How about what Jesus said here? Should we start to imprison and execute everyone who gets angry with another person? He just equated anger to murder, didn't He?

If Jesus was saying you could divorce your spouse because of heart adultery (in whatever form) I think every marriage in the world is potetnially in trouble. I'm certain that nearly every man who has been married longer than a month has at some point looked upon another woman lustfully, if even for a moment.

How about you ladies? Do you ever have "relationship lust" of another man? Do you ever see some Hallmark movie and wish your husband was in some way more like that man on TV or the movies? DO you think that this is somehow less adulterous than a man looking at another woman?


Hi
yes I do see what you are saying, but I dont think that a man who occasionally looks too long at a woman can be compared to a man who constantly watches porn day after day for years and years and allows it to seriously damage his wife and marriage and his relationship with God. No one here is suggesting that a woman can divorce her husband for occasionally looking at other women.

Oh and in answer to your question, no, I dont see anything in movies or in books that makes me want my husband to be like that man.I really have no interest in any other man. ::smile::

Ok, how about a man who looks lusfully at a one or two women a day and has the occasional mental fantasy about them? Is this divorceable? Or what about a man who struggles with looking at porn occasionally, even though he tries very hard to stay away from it? This is probably true of the vast majority of marriages in this day and age. Do all of these women have a right to divorce their spouse? If not, where is the magic cut-off line and how can you justify it in scripture?

Offline chosenone

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #14 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 12:11:36 »

Don't forget this part:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment......" (Matthew 5, right before the lust = adultery part )

How about what Jesus said here? Should we start to imprison and execute everyone who gets angry with another person? He just equated anger to murder, didn't He?

If Jesus was saying you could divorce your spouse because of heart adultery (in whatever form) I think every marriage in the world is potetnially in trouble. I'm certain that nearly every man who has been married longer than a month has at some point looked upon another woman lustfully, if even for a moment.

How about you ladies? Do you ever have "relationship lust" of another man? Do you ever see some Hallmark movie and wish your husband was in some way more like that man on TV or the movies? DO you think that this is somehow less adulterous than a man looking at another woman?


Hi
yes I do see what you are saying, but I dont think that a man who occasionally looks too long at a woman can be compared to a man who constantly watches porn day after day for years and years and allows it to seriously damage his wife and marriage and his relationship with God. No one here is suggesting that a woman can divorce her husband for occasionally looking at other women.

Oh and in answer to your question, no, I dont see anything in movies or in books that makes me want my husband to be like that man.I really have no interest in any other man. ::smile::

Ok, how about a man who looks lusfully at a one or two women a day and has the occasional mental fantasy about them? Is this divorceable? Or what about a man who struggles with looking at porn occasionally, even though he tries very hard to stay away from it? This is probably true of the vast majority of marriages in this day and age. Do all of these women have a right to divorce their spouse? If not, where is the magic cut-off line and how can you justify it in scripture?


 You seem to be assuming that men or women in the vast majority of marriages occaionally look at porn, even if not that often.I would challenge that assumption. I know that porn is a big problem but there are many godly men and women who never look at it. If a man is looking lustfully at 2 or 3 women a day and having mental fantasies about them. I would suggest that he may neeed to seriously pray about that and begin to control his eyes and thoughts. I can justifty it in scripture because God allows divorce for pornea(sexual immorality) If it is serious and causing deep hurt and damage to the spouse and marriage then divorce may be the answer.

 I am not sure why anyone would try to defend anyone who looks at porn, it is evil and destroys lives.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 15:20:03 by chosenone »

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #15 on: Sat Nov 19, 2011 - 22:36:52 »
I am not sure why anyone would try to defend anyone who looks at porn, it is evil and destroys lives.

Who said I was defending looking at porn? Yes, porn is evil and destroys lives. So is divorce. Divorce is evil and it destroys lives also! Yes, it is permitted under severe circumstances. But far too many people are looking for excuses to quit on difficult marriages today. And the children are the ones who are paying the tragic price!

Offline chosenone

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #16 on: Mon Nov 21, 2011 - 04:26:06 »
I am not sure why anyone would try to defend anyone who looks at porn, it is evil and destroys lives.

Who said I was defending looking at porn? Yes, porn is evil and destroys lives. So is divorce. Divorce is evil and it destroys lives also! Yes, it is permitted under severe circumstances. But far too many people are looking for excuses to quit on difficult marriages today. And the children are the ones who are paying the tragic price!


 Yes I agree that some do indeed look for excuses, but in cases of extreem porn use over a long period with no attempt to stop, there can be a justification to seperate and even divorce because that comes under the heading or pornea in my view.
Yes I do know that divorce is horrible, I and my husband have both been through a divorce after long first marriages, and almost every member of my family is divorced after cheating and similar, so I am well aware of the damage and heart break it causes. However I could never tell a lady in such a marriage that I just described, that she has to stay with a man who, has in effect, already destroyed his wife and marriage anyway.

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #17 on: Mon Nov 21, 2011 - 17:33:47 »
I am not sure why anyone would try to defend anyone who looks at porn, it is evil and destroys lives.

Who said I was defending looking at porn? Yes, porn is evil and destroys lives. So is divorce. Divorce is evil and it destroys lives also! Yes, it is permitted under severe circumstances. But far too many people are looking for excuses to quit on difficult marriages today. And the children are the ones who are paying the tragic price!


 Yes I agree that some do indeed look for excuses, but in cases of extreem porn use over a long period with no attempt to stop, there can be a justification to seperate and even divorce because that comes under the heading or pornea in my view.
Yes I do know that divorce is horrible, I and my husband have both been through a divorce after long first marriages, and almost every member of my family is divorced after cheating and similar, so I am well aware of the damage and heart break it causes. However I could never tell a lady in such a marriage that I just described, that she has to stay with a man who, has in effect, already destroyed his wife and marriage anyway.

There are a lot of other options for a woman (or man) in that situation, with their spouse viewing porn, but not physically cheating. Yes, porn is horrible and feels like a betrayal to many spouses. Those who indulge in it are foolish and are opening the door to many problems in theirs and their loved ones lives.

But there is a major difference between someone viewing those impersonal images, and another person who goes out and shares the most initmate parts of their body, mind, emotions and passions with another person.

They are no more equivalent to each other than anger is equivalent to murder. Do you believe we should start to imprison and execute people who are chronically angry towards others?

Offline Loner

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #18 on: Mon Nov 21, 2011 - 20:38:51 »
I am not sure why anyone would try to defend anyone who looks at porn, it is evil and destroys lives.

Who said I was defending looking at porn? Yes, porn is evil and destroys lives. So is divorce. Divorce is evil and it destroys lives also! Yes, it is permitted under severe circumstances. But far too many people are looking for excuses to quit on difficult marriages today. And the children are the ones who are paying the tragic price!


 Yes I agree that some do indeed look for excuses, but in cases of extreem porn use over a long period with no attempt to stop, there can be a justification to seperate and even divorce because that comes under the heading or pornea in my view.
Yes I do know that divorce is horrible, I and my husband have both been through a divorce after long first marriages, and almost every member of my family is divorced after cheating and similar, so I am well aware of the damage and heart break it causes. However I could never tell a lady in such a marriage that I just described, that she has to stay with a man who, has in effect, already destroyed his wife and marriage anyway.

There are a lot of other options for a woman (or man) in that situation, with their spouse viewing porn, but not physically cheating. Yes, porn is horrible and feels like a betrayal to many spouses. Those who indulge in it are foolish and are opening the door to many problems in theirs and their loved ones lives.

But there is a major difference between someone viewing those impersonal images, and another person who goes out and shares the most initmate parts of their body, mind, emotions and passions with another person.

They are no more equivalent to each other than anger is equivalent to murder. Do you believe we should start to imprison and execute people who are chronically angry towards others?

drspinko..you said "feels like betrayal"...are you kidding it IS betrayal ::frustrated::
you also called viewing porn as "foolish"..it IS sin  ::frown::

Since you are adamant that they are not the same please show me where there are different kinds of adultery....back up with scripture please.

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #19 on: Mon Nov 21, 2011 - 22:49:21 »

Since you are adamant that they are not the same please show me where there are different kinds of adultery....back up with scripture please.

Matthew 5:27-28
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Is this the standard you are refering to? Read it carefully. It says that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully. This is way more than pornography. This is a sin that has been commited by nearly every heterosexual man on the planet. If you don't believe me, you are very naive. If Jesus intended for this standard to be used by women as a basis for divorce, then over 90% of marriages in the world would be at risk, especially if the wife had a way of reading her husband's mind. I'm not trying to minimize the sinful nature of lust. But, lust of the mind and heart does not equal the act of adultery against a spouse.

If you think it does, you need to read the rest of Matthew chapter 5, where Jesus lists many other heart sins and how they are offensive primarily to God. For example:

Matthew 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment..."

Have you ever been angry with someone? (Yes). Does that give the person you were angry with a right to bring murder charges against you? (No). Why? Isn't your anger harmful to them? Probably. But, while it is murderous before God in your heart, you haven't actually carried out a murderous act towards them. The offense is primarliy against God. He is the One Who will judge those matters.

In the same way, while the sin of lust (including viewing pornography) can be very hurtful to one's spouse, it is not an act that equates to having real sexual intercourse with another person. One is the seed, the other is the fruit. They are very similar (in their DNA), but also very diffferent. Like anger vs. actual murder.

Offline chosenone

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 04:31:43 »
I am not sure why anyone would try to defend anyone who looks at porn, it is evil and destroys lives.

Who said I was defending looking at porn? Yes, porn is evil and destroys lives. So is divorce. Divorce is evil and it destroys lives also! Yes, it is permitted under severe circumstances. But far too many people are looking for excuses to quit on difficult marriages today. And the children are the ones who are paying the tragic price!


 Yes I agree that some do indeed look for excuses, but in cases of extreme porn use over a long period with no attempt to stop, there can be a justification to separate and even divorce because that comes under the heading or pornea in my view.
Yes I do know that divorce is horrible, I and my husband have both been through a divorce after long first marriages, and almost every member of my family is divorced after cheating and similar, so I am well aware of the damage and heart break it causes. However I could never tell a lady in such a marriage that I just described, that she has to stay with a man who, has in effect, already destroyed his wife and marriage anyway.

There are a lot of other options for a woman (or man) in that situation, with their spouse viewing porn, but not physically cheating. Yes, porn is horrible and feels like a betrayal to many spouses. Those who indulge in it are foolish and are opening the door to many problems in theirs and their loved ones lives.

But there is a major difference between someone viewing those impersonal images, and another person who goes out and shares the most intimate parts of their body, mind, emotions and passions with another person.

They are no more equivalent to each other than anger is equivalent to murder. Do you believe we should start to imprison and execute people who are chronically angry towards others?


 I can only go by what some women have said who have been through this, and that is that it can feel even worse than an affair because there are hundreds or thousands of women who he is lusting after rather than just one. Women whose lives and marriages have been destroyed by porn use.
I suppose we may need to see what the Bible says about challenging people who are into sexual sin in the church. They are to be challenged, given the chance to repent, and if they don't then they are to be excluded. The one who is looking at porn maybe needs to be challenged by the spouse and maybe also their pastor, given every chance to repent, but if they refuse, then the next step may need to be separation. If they still refuse to stop after more time has passed, I believe that divorce may be a last resort solution. Definitely not a first resort, but a last resort.

What incentive has a man to stop if his wife enables it and just turns a blind eye, or feels forced to stay because she has been told to. If he thinks he may loose his wife and marriage, it may just be what he needs to come to his senses. If he still doesn't then that shows what his priorities are.

Offline Supplanter

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 10:00:23 »
Looking at pornography isn't just a sin of the heart. It is a tangible sin. It isn't like they saw a woman on the street and oggled her for a moment. They are actively seeking out sexual arousal and release from from another source besides their spouse. Pornography and masturbation go hand in hand. Most likely at some point he is masturbating to those images (almost seems like idolatry, committing sexual acts honoring an inanimate object, almost like being in the temple of a foreign God).

Just because he doesn't use other women and instead uses images to fornicate doesn't mean it is "in his heart." he is actually fornicating and thereby committing adultery against his wife. It's the same when a woman uses a vibrator and then no longer wants her husband because he is just physically incapable of doing what the machine can do. She is actively seeking out arousal and sexual release from something that is not her husband and that is fornication.

Both parties have committed acts of infidelity beyond lusting in their hearts.

Offline Loner

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 14:46:35 »

Since you are adamant that they are not the same please show me where there are different kinds of adultery....back up with scripture please.

Matthew 5:27-28
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Is this the standard you are refering to? Read it carefully. It says that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully. This is way more than pornography. This is a sin that has been commited by nearly every heterosexual man on the planet. If you don't believe me, you are very naive. If Jesus intended for this standard to be used by women as a basis for divorce, then over 90% of marriages in the world would be at risk, especially if the wife had a way of reading her husband's mind. I'm not trying to minimize the sinful nature of lust. But, lust of the mind and heart does not equal the act of adultery against a spouse.

If you think it does, you need to read the rest of Matthew chapter 5, where Jesus lists many other heart sins and how they are offensive primarily to God. For example:

Matthew 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment..."

Have you ever been angry with someone? (Yes). Does that give the person you were angry with a right to bring murder charges against you? (No). Why? Isn't your anger harmful to them? Probably. But, while it is murderous before God in your heart, you haven't actually carried out a murderous act towards them. The offense is primarliy against God. He is the One Who will judge those matters.

In the same way, while the sin of lust (including viewing pornography) can be very hurtful to one's spouse, it is not an act that equates to having real sexual intercourse with another person. One is the seed, the other is the fruit. They are very similar (in their DNA), but also very diffferent. Like anger vs. actual murder.
If a male has a piece of paper in front of him on which is a porn pic and he lusts after it the Lord said it's adultery
If a male lusts after a half naked female on the street just a few feet from him...the Lord said it's adultery.
If a male commits the physical act of adultery ..the Lord said it's adultery.

He never spoke of different kinds of adultery...only you are saying that. Yes there are many sins that the Lord says are sins, but man refuses to see them for what they are ...sin. Because the law of man does not view lust as adultery does not make what the Lord has said any the less true.
.
You still have not backed up your theory with scripture... ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 16:35:22 »
Looking at pornography isn't just a sin of the heart. It is a tangible sin. It isn't like they saw a woman on the street and oggled her for a moment. They are actively seeking out sexual arousal and release from from another source besides their spouse. Pornography and masturbation go hand in hand. Most likely at some point he is masturbating to those images (almost seems like idolatry, committing sexual acts honoring an inanimate object, almost like being in the temple of a foreign God).

Just because he doesn't use other women and instead uses images to fornicate doesn't mean it is "in his heart." he is actually fornicating and thereby committing adultery against his wife. It's the same when a woman uses a vibrator and then no longer wants her husband because he is just physically incapable of doing what the machine can do. She is actively seeking out arousal and sexual release from something that is not her husband and that is fornication.


So, you are contending that everyone whose spouse has masturbated, or ever had a sexual fantasy about another person, has the right to demand a divorce from their spouse?


Both parties have committed acts of infidelity beyond lusting in their hearts.

You are adding to Jesus' words by saying that.

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

I believe the above text makes it clear that Jesus is including masturbation. But He Himself said the sin was in their hearts.

If we are going to start judging everyone for their heart sins and demanding recompense for them, then we are all in trouble with each other! Do you realize that? Try reading all of Matthew 5. The chapter ends with this phrase:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

This is the theme of this whole chapter! If you somehow think that you have arrived perhaps you can be the first ones to start casting the stones. But I'm not going to!

Offline drspinko

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 16:40:49 »
You still have not backed up your theory with scripture... ::eatingpopcorn:

I refer you to my post above. Since Jesus is the one who qualified His statement with the phrase "in his heart", then you are the one who needs scripture to back up your theory that it is more than a heart sin.

 ::eatingpopcorn:

Offline Supplanter

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 16:55:01 »
Looking at pornography isn't just a sin of the heart. It is a tangible sin. It isn't like they saw a woman on the street and oggled her for a moment. They are actively seeking out sexual arousal and release from from another source besides their spouse. Pornography and masturbation go hand in hand. Most likely at some point he is masturbating to those images (almost seems like idolatry, committing sexual acts honoring an inanimate object, almost like being in the temple of a foreign God).

Just because he doesn't use other women and instead uses images to fornicate doesn't mean it is "in his heart." he is actually fornicating and thereby committing adultery against his wife. It's the same when a woman uses a vibrator and then no longer wants her husband because he is just physically incapable of doing what the machine can do. She is actively seeking out arousal and sexual release from something that is not her husband and that is fornication.


So, you are contending that everyone whose spouse has masturbated, or ever had a sexual fantasy about another person, has the right to demand a divorce from their spouse?



Both parties have committed acts of infidelity beyond lusting in their hearts.

You are adding to Jesus' words by saying that.

Matt. 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

I believe the above text makes it clear that Jesus is including masturbation. But He Himself said the sin was in their hearts.

If we are going to start judging everyone for their heart sins and demanding recompense for them, then we are all in trouble with each other! Do you realize that? Try reading all of Matthew 5. The chapter ends with this phrase:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

This is the theme of this whole chapter! If you somehow think that you have arrived perhaps you can be the first ones to start casting the stones. But I'm not going to!


I see nowhere that masturbation is a sin of the heart. Masturbation is a tangible, physical act. Masturbation is not necessarily a sin, the sin flows out of the heart through that act. You are the one who wants to take it to the extreme of divorcing over one sexual fantasy because you want to polarize the issue when no one has said anything akin to what you are proposing, but adultery of the heart is still adultery and it leads to problems in a marriage and if a man has no intent of stopping his sinning then she has a right to divorce him. He is still sinning against her. There is no justification for a man who chooses pornography, fantasy, and masturbation over his wife.

A woman who has been objectified, neglected, and abused by her husbands lust for another (human or material) has every right to leave.

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #26 on: Tue Nov 22, 2011 - 20:58:39 »
Perhaps we should start by asking, "Why is adultery a sin in the first place?"

Offline anx

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 01:16:15 »
I don't know what has updated in your story thislittlelight.  The last thing you posted I think you said you were still mad at your husband.

Unfortunately, I don't think its a biblical reason to divorce. I think its a really bad spot that you are in uninterestedin your husband and he (probably but I'm not sure) still wants sex with you.

I've been in the place where my wife has no interest in anything physical and probably won't for months or years. A man's biggest relational need is totally gone even if any marriage issues were only 50 % his fault. I don't remember all the details of your story,but I remember it wad similar to mine and you husband was either emotionally abusive or close to it.

Despite your husbands issues its a terrible spot to be in. I've been there. I know you have been through a ton if hurt and pain and probably have wanted out or to give up for a long time if you haven't already.

A man's battle against porn is something many men fail at in our internet age. It's still wrong,but so easy to do. When dealing with huge marriage issues, mo sex lite, anger, loneliness, etc, a lot of men fail if they haven't already.

Unfortunately,marriage Is something where someone else's sin along with our own can lead to decades of unhappiness. Doing the right and Godly thing in the face of so much pain and hurt is a struggle every day. Especially if your spouse isn't interested in changing at the time.

I wish your story the best, that your find happiness, and may blessings overflow your life. Submit to God's will in your life. I'm not sure what that is, but apart from him, we are all lost. My story is looking up after 2 years of hard work and many low lows, 2 serious bought of depression with suicidal nagging thoughts,and being hurt more than I knew I could be for a long time. I have no idea if that's Gods plan,or my sin getting in the way of his,or when the sky will clear. Until the fight the good fight and do not tire from doing what is right(2 thesalonians 2:13). You are probably already a stronger woman than you knew. I pray God blessed you and you find happiness.
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 01:39:15 by anx »

Offline St James

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #28 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 01:34:01 »
Not adultery but sin, it's still lusting for the flesh  ::destroyingcomputer::

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #29 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 03:09:27 »
Perhaps we should start by asking, "Why is adultery a sin in the first place?"


 You could ask God that one, He said it was sin.

Offline JohnDB

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #30 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 09:14:34 »
A house divided with competing goals cannot survive.

If one spouse is looking to their own wants & needs then the house is divided. Marriage is an exercise in giving. NOT about what the other one can do or is supposed to do for you.

What happens when marriage is all about giving is an intimacy that goes far beyond the physical (but includes that as well).

To look at pictures and fantasize about that other person totally destroys that fragile trust between the two principles in a marriage. 

Offline thislittlelight

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #31 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 11:40:52 »
I don't know what has updated in your story thislittlelight.  The last thing you posted I think you said you were still mad at your husband.

Unfortunately, I don't think its a biblical reason to divorce. I think its a really bad spot that you are in uninterestedin your husband and he (probably but I'm not sure) still wants sex with you.

I've been in the place where my wife has no interest in anything physical and probably won't for months or years. A man's biggest relational need is totally gone even if any marriage issues were only 50 % his fault. I don't remember all the details of your story,but I remember it wad similar to mine and you husband was either emotionally abusive or close to it.

Despite your husbands issues its a terrible spot to be in. I've been there. I know you have been through a ton if hurt and pain and probably have wanted out or to give up for a long time if you haven't already.

A man's battle against porn is something many men fail at in our internet age. It's still wrong,but so easy to do. When dealing with huge marriage issues, mo sex lite, anger, loneliness, etc, a lot of men fail if they haven't already.

Unfortunately,marriage Is something where someone else's sin along with our own can lead to decades of unhappiness. Doing the right and Godly thing in the face of so much pain and hurt is a struggle every day. Especially if your spouse isn't interested in changing at the time.

I wish your story the best, that your find happiness, and may blessings overflow your life. Submit to God's will in your life. I'm not sure what that is, but apart from him, we are all lost. My story is looking up after 2 years of hard work and many low lows, 2 serious bought of depression with suicidal nagging thoughts,and being hurt more than I knew I could be for a long time. I have no idea if that's Gods plan,or my sin getting in the way of his,or when the sky will clear. Until the fight the good fight and do not tire from doing what is right(2 thesalonians 2:13). You are probably already a stronger woman than you knew. I pray God blessed you and you find happiness.

Hi anx.  Thanks for your words.  Things are basically the same--maybe a little bit better at the moment.  We'll see what the holidays entail because that's always a difficult time for me.  We spend a lot of time with his family around the holidays and that's what we usually argue about, so we'll see how it goes.

I started seeing a separate counselor by myself to deal with my depression/anger/lack of being able to forgive.  I've had more acceptance of the situation during the last few weeks, but I don't think that's a permanent change.  It's probably just a temporary feeling and as soon as there's another incident, I'll fall apart again.

Actually, TJW's post from a few weeks ago helped a lot where he gave the analogy of how if someone cuts off your arm, it will still hurt even if they're sorry, or you forgive them, or you know how much God loves you, etc.  I just hurt.

The question I posted was just more out of curiosity of what everyone else thinks about what seems to be a very common issue in Christian marriages.  I've been hopping around the internet a lot trying to gain some insight into my marriage, and porn is an issue that pops up time and time again.  I really was just curious since some stories involve spouses spending a lot of money on it, looking at it daily, refusing to stop and I just don't see how that's not adultery.  

My husband has looked at porn since before we were married.  I get it that he's more tempted now since I don't want to have sex very often.  He doesn't have an addiction, but he does look at it (I'm not sure how often), and did look at it even when we were newlyweds having sex more days than not.  As chosenone has said, I've always turned a blind eye, because his sin is not my sin, and I didn't want to cast stones when I have plenty of sin of my own, but perhaps that's the wrong attitude to have.  I plan to talk to my counselor about that at my next appointment.  

I'm not considering a divorce over this.  I do think that some spouses are justified seeking a divorce when porn is an extreme issue, but that's not the case in my marriage.  And I've never felt personally hurt when I've found that he's looked at it.  I don't like it because he's sinning, but for me, I just don't feel betrayed by it.  I feel much more betrayed by a lot of the other things he's done that don't involve anything sexual at all--like making promises and then not keeping them, or lying to me, or participating in conversation where I'm being slandered and called derogatory names.  If any amount of porn was grounds for divorce, and I chose to divorce over it, I would be using it as a "get out of jail free card" and not because I couldn't forgive it.  I'd really be divorcing over everything else, which I don't think is the right attitude at all.  So, for me, it's not an option, but I do think some spouses could and should divorce over it when it is an extreme issue.  

Thanks for checking in.  I appreciate it.    


Offline anx

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #32 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 12:34:44 »
In my own story, my wife moved back in for 4 months,but had never really forgiven. She had been saying she was happy and them snapped. She moved back out and now 6 months later, we are doing a book(I don't want a divorce a 90 day plan) to write forgiveness letters.

Altogether, 2 separations and a year and a half, she is still having a very hard time getting past this. I wad never as bad as your husband,but she has been very hurt.

This separation has sucked and I wish it didn't happen,but she has had time to find happiness for herself and determine what she wants and find strength.

Anyways, I think you can forgive, but it would take serious work and God's hand on you both. I think it will take something like 1-2 years. Don't be in a rush or hard on yourself. It's human for big change to take a long time. Even with God's had directly on you and your heart, it won't be quick.

God has been on my life and the anxiety issues that I have had my entire adult life. I have had little or no anxiety issues for the first time in my life. However, 6 months ago I had suicidal thoughts and a ton of anxiety.

I hope you can find similar peace given time. Depression sucks. It helps long term healing though.

Blessings
« Last Edit: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 12:46:50 by anx »

Offline Loner

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #33 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 14:47:34 »
You still have not backed up your theory with scripture... ::eatingpopcorn:

I refer you to my post above. Since Jesus is the one who qualified His statement with the phrase "in his heart", then you are the one who needs scripture to back up your theory that it is more than a heart sin.

 ::eatingpopcorn:
You can't give me a scripture because there is none!!
Can't you understand that these are not my words , the Lord has said it is adultery therefore it is adultery. whether it be in the heart or in the physical...why do find it so hard to grasp?

Solomon also said that "as a man thinks, so is he" Prov 23:7
All sin comes from the heart. The Lord tells us in Jer 17 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Offline Loner

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Re: Do you consider pornography to be adultery? Why or why not?
« Reply #34 on: Wed Nov 23, 2011 - 14:50:51 »
In my own story, my wife moved back in for 4 months,but had never really forgiven. She had been saying she was happy and them snapped. She moved back out and now 6 months later, we are doing a book(I don't want a divorce a 90 day plan) to write forgiveness letters.

Altogether, 2 separations and a year and a half, she is still having a very hard time getting past this. I wad never as bad as your husband,but she has been very hurt.

This separation has sucked and I wish it didn't happen,but she has had time to find happiness for herself and determine what she wants and find strength.

Anyways, I think you can forgive, but it would take serious work and God's hand on you both. I think it will take something like 1-2 years. Don't be in a rush or hard on yourself. It's human for big change to take a long time. Even with God's had directly on you and your heart, it won't be quick.

God has been on my life and the anxiety issues that I have had my entire adult life. I have had little or no anxiety issues for the first time in my life. However, 6 months ago I had suicidal thoughts and a ton of anxiety.

I hope you can find similar peace given time. Depression sucks. It helps long term healing though.

Blessings
anx..I'm so glad you have found peace now..lean on the Lord and you will find that He really is the One who heals the broken hearted...one day even the scars will be gone. ::smile::

 

     
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