is pornography grounds for divorce

[Blondie]

You know my answer to that Chosenone. The legalists would tie her up I expect. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. 2 Cor 3:6.  Are they the ones obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? 1 Tim 6:4. Isn't the word spirit and life? Your friend needs encouragement and help to do the right thing. I'm sure you will give her good advice Chosenone.

On romantic novels. My wife and I love watching Jane Austin stuff. Is that wrong? Whatever, it is a million miles from porn. The two cannot be compared. Very weak argument.

[chosenone]

You know my answer to that Chosenone. The legalists would tie her up I expect. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. 2 Cor 3:6.  Are they the ones obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? 1 Tim 6:4. Isn't the word spirit and life? Your friend needs encouragement and help to do the right thing. I'm sure you will give her good advice Chosenone.

On romantic novels. My wife and I love watching Jane Austin stuff. Is that wrong? Whatever, it is a million miles from porn. The two cannot be compared. Very weak argument.

 Romantic films are to be enjoyed and even though I dont like them. I cant see how anyone could possibly compare them to porn.Is there  gratious sex in them? Are there naked people in them committing sexual acts?

the only danger I can see is that maybe a women who is almost addicted to romance novels and films may allow it to give her unreal expectation of her husband, forgetting that these men arent really like that , they are acting. 

 The friend I mentioned long ago divorced her husband for his behaviour. She had no hesitation when she found out what he had been doing with the children in the same room. They were her proirity.

[Mac]

You know my answer to that Chosenone. The legalists would tie her up I expect. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. 2 Cor 3:6.  Are they the ones obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? 1 Tim 6:4. Isn't the word spirit and life? Your friend needs encouragement and help to do the right thing. I'm sure you will give her good advice Chosenone.

So, because we do not agree that looking at a photograph or a film of people engaged in sex, is a reason for divorce, we are teaching false doctrines according to you?

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Where exactly do you find the biblical scriptures to support your "opinion" ?

Many here have provided good, Godly advice. Based solely on scripture. They took no liberty with the scriptures. They did not changes words or add to them. Someone merely added a definition of pornea and intercourse. Now we are teaching false doctrines? Wow....

I do not agree with pornography. I have always taken a stand against it. It is disgusting, disrespectful and hurtful to those who have to be compared with these things. But... Is it grounds for a divorce? According to scripture it is not.

What should this woman do? Separate from her husband.. That's what... The one thing that most people tend to take "liberty" with is, they think God's number one priority is their happiness. Or that they are guaranteed happiness? Where does the bible say that? It doesn't. We reap what we sow. Was this person like this before marriage? Were there any subtle hints? I can't tell you that... But one thing about consequences... (Reaping what we sow)... Sometimes, we get caught up in other peoples storms.. WE pay a price for their actions... That is a matter of simple facts.

God never promised me or you happiness. We are to be devoted to the Lord. He will be faithful to us. But does that mean we'll like what we get? No, it doesn't.

Running away is an easy thing to do. It is easier than staying or you'd stay. That is also as simple as that. It isn't right for me or you to tell someone what God thinks or how God will react to something. That is an individual thing. Yes, we are a body. One body in Christ. But, we have individual roles to fulfill.

God told us why to divorce.. Does it meet that burden of approval? Biblical speaking? I say no. You say yes.. But to say we, who feel that way, are teaching a false doctrine is just wrong.

On romantic novels. My wife and I love watching Jane Austin stuff. Is that wrong? Whatever, it is a million miles from porn. The two cannot be compared. Very weak argument.

No, it is not a million miles from porn. If you can watch a "romance movie" and become aroused, it is the exact same thing. Just dressed in different clothing. I have never watched a Jane Austin movie, but I have seen some of the romance novels and what they contain. I assure you, and my wife would agree, that they DO and WILL arouse some woman. So, what is the difference?

You are wrong.

[Bocephus]

The only way a human being can break trust with another is through viewing pornography.

Sometimes your sarcasm is very witty and highly entertaining.  Sometimes, not so much.

Thanks.  And sorry!   My point hopefully is very clear.   If you listen to a wife's analysis of a husband's struggle they should be sensitive to a husband's analysis of the wife's struggle.  Husbands aren't wives with a penis so they aren't going to be "chicks".  That doesn't mean pornography isn't a sin that can destroy a marriage.  It is.  But trust and respect and so forth isn't limited to the self perspective analysis of the partner.  (Whatever that means!  Good grief, I am sure waxing inelloguent today)   Romance novels can destroy, Lifetime channel discussions about men can destroy, poor advise can destroy.   etc etc etc.   

However, I would far rather my spouse read a romance novel than looked at photos or films of naked people having sex and committing various types of sexual acts.

Some romance novels are about the same. 3/4 of the way back into the novel there is quite often one or more rather graphically-detailed "encounter" of a sexual type.

There really isn't much difference in the images suggested.

  however I would still far rather have  a spouse who read a romance book than one who looked at naked people acting out sexual acts on each other.

Of course you would.  It is a more acceptable female thing to do.   Still promotes lust, no different than pornography.

 I dont do either (look at porn or read romance novels), But I am sure that any spouse would rather their spouse read a book than looked at porn.
A good romance novel doesnt always produce lust, unless it has sex scenes in it, and then it is wrong to read anyway.  I see reading romance novels or watching historical romances inadvisable becuase they can make someone have an unrealistic expectation of their spouse rather then becuase it makes them lust.
However I cant see the comparison being similar. Ask yourself what you would prefer your spouse to do. look at naked men/women committ sex acts or read  a book?.  Ask those women who have posted on here in despair which they would prefer.

I've read snippets out of said "romance" books, and they are basically nothing more than erotica.  Written depictions of pornography.   The mind is where we lust, whether they are visual depictions of mental depictions brought on by the written word.

[Mac]

I've read snippets out of said "romance" books, and they are basically nothing more than erotica.  Written depictions of pornography.   The mind is where we lust, whether they are visual depictions of mental depictions brought on by the written word.

I agree Gary. Same thing. Just dressed in different clothes.

[chosenone]

mac you say that the women should separate. Then what? if the husband wont stop even after separating and wont get help after a long period, what is their future?Do they just stay 'married' but apart for the rest of their lives?That is no marriage anyway.

I don't understand after reading some of the appalling accounts of some women here how anyone can consider what they have been through as any less sexually immoral as their husband committing sexual acts with someone else .I have heard one or two say that it would have been far easier if their spouse had had a one off affair than had years and years of porn use.
  
Also mac I don't think that we are talking about looking at 'a photo or a film' as being what is being referred to here. It is the long term use of serious porn over a long period of time and we are probably talking about hundreds if not thousands of naked people doing all sorts of sexual acts many of them lewd and obscene, and almost certainly masturbating as well.  I don't think that anyone is talking about divorcing their husband for looking at a picture of a naked women on one or two occasions, but long term unrepentant use, when he has no intention of stopping, and which is damaging the marriage the wife and probably the children.

None of us can say what the Bible would have said about what we today know as serious porn use. In its current form it simply wasn't around then, so no one can actually say for sure what Jesus or Paul would have said about that, although the Bible does talk about the seriousness of uncleanness and uncovering nakedness which is very revelant. Sexually immorality can cover many things.Being unfaithful to your spouse through constant porn use is just as painful to her as if you were being physically unfaithful, and at least then she would be 'allowed' to divorce.

The lady that I knew had the full support of her pastor also and he was a good and godly man.

I cannot agree that this red herring about romance novels is in anyway comparable.

[chosenone]

I've read snippets out of said "romance" books, and they are basically nothing more than erotica.  Written depictions of pornography.   The mind is where we lust, whether they are visual depictions of mental depictions brought on by the written word.

I agree Gary. Same thing. Just dressed in different clothes.

 So would you rather your wife watched  historical romances or constantly looked at pictures of good looking naked men committing sexual acts? We are not talking about the evils or not of romance films or books here, it is porn that is the issus. if anyone wants to they can start another thread about romance if they think it is so serious.

[Mac]

So would you rather your wife watched  historical romances or constantly looked at pictures of good looking naked men committing sexual acts? We are not talking about the evils or not of romance films or books here, it is porn that is the issus. if anyone wants to they can start another thread about romance if they think it is so serious.

I am not talking about the Jane Austin's of the world. That is a historical romance. But it is not explicit in detail. A lot of your romance novels are though.

What I am saying is, a man looks at porn and becomes aroused. A woman reads a romance novel and becomes aroused.. What is the difference? Same result. They are "dressed" differently, but have the same affect on the people partaking.

So, the question is, where is the line crossed? Is it solely based on the act of viewing the porn or reading the book? Or does it become wrong when you act on it?

Believe me chosenone, you know I am against porn. But saying a person is lead by God to divorce their husband because he looked at porn is, in my opinion, wrong.

[Bocephus]

I am thinking that the whole issue has been covered thoroughly.  There has been 21 pages.  If anyone has anything that is truly new to add, please do so.

Otherwise, if the same arguments are going to be used over and over and folks are going to accuse other folks of legalism, it will be locked soon.

[Blondie]

You know my answer to that Chosenone. The legalists would tie her up I expect. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. 2 Cor 3:6.  Are they the ones obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? 1 Tim 6:4. Isn't the word spirit and life? Your friend needs encouragement and help to do the right thing. I'm sure you will give her good advice Chosenone.

On romantic novels. My wife and I love watching Jane Austin stuff. Is that wrong? Whatever, it is a million miles from porn. The two cannot be compared. Very weak argument.

 Romantic films are to be enjoyed and even though I dont like them. I cant see how anyone could possibly compare them to porn.Is there  gratious sex in them? Are there naked people in them committing sexual acts?

the only danger I can see is that maybe a women who is almost addicted to romance novels and films may allow it to give her unreal expectation of her husband, forgetting that these men arent really like that , they are acting.  

 The friend I mentioned long ago divorced her husband for his behaviour. She had no hesitation when she found out what he had been doing with the children in the same room. They were her proirity.

Good for her Chosenone. I am sure it was the right thing in this intance. There is a difference between a person struggling with it and trying to overcome it and one who just says for instance "all men do it" or something similar. All I am saying is that they should have the freedom to choose and not be tied up by some legalist. I would say this only applies to sexual things which porn is. A lot of wives are suffering this and answers are needed.

I do not say these things lightly, but when Jesus said that a man who looks on another woman and lusts after her has committed adultery with her already with her in his heart He speaks volumes. One is not saying one look = divorce, but there is a level that this can get to which has all the effects of adultery (particularly where there is no repentance) and a woman who is looking to the Lord for answers should not be at the mercy of those arguing about the meaning of pornea for instance, although I do happen to agree with your interpretation.

[chosenone]

So would you rather your wife watched  historical romances or constantly looked at pictures of good looking naked men committing sexual acts? We are not talking about the evils or not of romance films or books here, it is porn that is the issus. if anyone wants to they can start another thread about romance if they think it is so serious.

I am not talking about the Jane Austin's of the world. That is a historical romance. But it is not explicit in detail. A lot of your romance novels are though.

What I am saying is, a man looks at porn and becomes aroused. A woman reads a romance novel and becomes aroused.. What is the difference? Same result. They are "dressed" differently, but have the same affect on the people partaking.

So, the question is, where is the line crossed? Is it solely based on the act of viewing the porn or reading the book? Or does it become wrong when you act on it?

Believe me chosenone, you know I am against porn. But saying a person is lead by God to divorce their husband because he looked at porn is, in my opinion, wrong.

 

 yes Mac I know that you are against porn and you seem like a godly man like my husband, but what would you advise anyone who has alerady seperated and nothong has changed and years have passed. Are they to be tied to this sham of a marriage forever?
I do believe that the lady I know was led to divorce. Her children were at risk and she never hesitated. She has never regretted it or felt that she did the wrong thing as far as I know.I cant judge her for what she had to do.

[chosenone]

The only way a human being can break trust with another is through viewing pornography.

Sometimes your sarcasm is very witty and highly entertaining.  Sometimes, not so much.

Thanks.  And sorry!   My point hopefully is very clear.   If you listen to a wife's analysis of a husband's struggle they should be sensitive to a husband's analysis of the wife's struggle.  Husbands aren't wives with a penis so they aren't going to be "chicks".  That doesn't mean pornography isn't a sin that can destroy a marriage.  It is.  But trust and respect and so forth isn't limited to the self perspective analysis of the partner.  (Whatever that means!  Good grief, I am sure waxing inelloguent today)   Romance novels can destroy, Lifetime channel discussions about men can destroy, poor advise can destroy.   etc etc etc.   

However, I would far rather my spouse read a romance novel than looked at photos or films of naked people having sex and committing various types of sexual acts.

Some romance novels are about the same. 3/4 of the way back into the novel there is quite often one or more rather graphically-detailed "encounter" of a sexual type.

There really isn't much difference in the images suggested.

  however I would still far rather have  a spouse who read a romance book than one who looked at naked people acting out sexual acts on each other.

Of course you would.  It is a more acceptable female thing to do.   Still promotes lust, no different than pornography.

 I dont do either (look at porn or read romance novels), But I am sure that any spouse would rather their spouse read a book than looked at porn.
A good romance novel doesnt always produce lust, unless it has sex scenes in it, and then it is wrong to read anyway.  I see reading romance novels or watching historical romances inadvisable becuase they can make someone have an unrealistic expectation of their spouse rather then becuase it makes them lust.
However I cant see the comparison being similar. Ask yourself what you would prefer your spouse to do. look at naked men/women committ sex acts or read  a book?.  Ask those women who have posted on here in despair which they would prefer.

I've read snippets out of said "romance" books, and they are basically nothing more than erotica.  Written depictions of pornography.   The mind is where we lust, whether they are visual depictions of mental depictions brought on by the written word.

 if a book is purely erotica then we shouldnt be reading them.

[Blondie]

Course we shouldn't. I don't see any of that in Jane Austen, but that's by the way.

I've just had a jog and a few more points came to me about the divorce scenario during it.

We all know God's perfect will is to love each other and stay married until the end. Nobody as a christian can disagree with that.

It came to me when Jesus was saying that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus did not reprove the actions of Moses but simply pointed out God's perfect will. Isn't it hardness of heart against ones wife to do adultery, porn or whatever? Whilst it may be God's perfect will to be married things can go wrong. Nobody is talking about a licence to divorce. One must try with all they have to save a marriage but if divorce happens there has been a failure somewhere, maybe a hardness of heart in one or the other. (I know there are many innocent parties in this). If a marriage has failed due to porn, adultery or whatever I think it very cruel to use Gods perfect will as the letter of the law and chain someone to a person addicted to say porn with no intention of changing. We are talking about sexual betrayal here as Jesus was and it seemed He released the innocent party in that scenario.

Porn is a lot more damaging than some are giving it credit for. It's not just a harmless inner thought that someone might have. Things will be going on in the unseen realm and habits will be building up. For some the sex is more real than that with their wives. Sex is always the first thing to suffer, then closeness, intimacy etc.

[chosenone]

yes Satan know that sex in a marriage is very important and that is why he loves to do all that he can to damage that relationship.
Porn use also opens the door to spirits such as the spirit of lust whch just makes the whole situation worse and worse, and then those doing this need deliverance as well as accountability.

As a women I can imagine that is feels as if a knife is being stuck in you every time that your husband looks at porn. After time it would damage you severaly both emotionally and spiritually. A person can only take so much of this before they break.

Divorce should always be a last resort (unless you have no choice)after trying everything else as you say blondie.

[Blondie]

A lot of truth spoken there Chosenone.