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I am a born again christian, my husband says he is born again talks the talk when needed but doesn't walk the walk. our marriage has failed and we are recently separated, he became very bitter to me and couldn't make eye contact with me, i found evidence of adultery he says he never has, i found he was on dating pages and seeking local women, i don't know if he actually met any of them, the evidence says yes, but no actual proof, then later on i found he was on free porn sites and talking dirty with them, i couldn't believe what i learned, he doesn't know that i saw what he has been doing, he  says he doesn't look at porn or lust after young girls, is what he's doing grounds for divorce? if there is no actual physical contact? or is it just adultery in his heart, and also how he can lie to me and look me in the eyes and say honest before God i haven't cheated on you or lust after young girls, how do i stay in a marriage with someone i can't trust or believe, our marriage bed has always been a problem too, he was always trying to blame me, but i have learned how porn can destroy the christian marriage bed and i don't believe it to be my fault. it really makes me sick inside to know his secret lifestyle. is any of this grounds for divorce? nothing is in the works yet just separation.

Edited by Admin for spelling.

 If he has been on dating pages and seeking women to go out with then he may well have been unfaithful, but this is hard  to prove unless he admits to it. If he has then you are allowed ot divorce him.
However the fact that he is seeking women shows that he wants to be unfaithful even if he hasnt yet dont it physically.
As for the porn, that is hard to say.
The word that Jesus uses for reasons for allowing us to divorce is 'pornea' which can mean any type of sexually immorality. This isnt just adultery but can include all sorts of sexual things. If we look at porn some would say that this is sexual immorality. if it isnt sexual immorality what is it? Jesus tells us not to look at a  women with lust , but what is looking at porn if it isnt  lusting?
Whether it is grounds for divorce I dont know, but it may well be if it is constant and unrepentant. (my opinion).


However, all the things that he is doing together surely amount to being totally unfaithful to you as his wife
and if he isnt prepared to stop I feel personally that you would be allowed to divorce him for sexual immorality. I am sure some wont agree but that is my opinion.

 If you go to church maybe it would be a good idea for you to talk to your pastor or another mature Chrsitns about this situation and what you should do.

hmm is there more to this story we dont know about.  Why are you separated?  Why is he looking for someone else?

Some men will attempt to separate pornography from actual cheating. The truth is, pornography is still sin...and can oftentimes be more harmful than an affair.

Jesus said if we even lust after a woman we have slept with her. According to Him, your husband has committed adultery. So biblical grounds for divorce are present, yes.

As for divorcing, that is up to you. Adultery is the only named "acceptable reason for divorce" in the Bible.

 I agree that porn can be just as damaging to a marriage as an affair. Women who have experienced this say that it does feel as if their husband is cheating, and  basically he is, even if it  is emotionl rather than physical.  In his mind and thoughts he is having sex with other women. time after time. Also becuase he has looked at so many images they usually stay in his mind and he is probably thinking about them when he has sex with his wife, which seems also to be cheating.
I am not sure I could cope with a husband who was always looking at porn, and I have the utmost sympathy with those whose spouses do this.
The word that Jesus uses which is 'pornea' is usually translated as adultery, but else where in the Bible it is used for other types of sexual immorality such as gay sex and other things, so technically this word could include porn or going to lap dancing clubs, strip clubs etc. The ineterpretation of what is sexual immorality and what isnt differs for different people I guess..   

Let's start from the top, shall we, admitting that we only know what's in the OP?

As to the question, is (your spouse viewing) pornography grounds for divorce, the answer based on what Scripture says is "no."

I happen to believe that even divorce, if we read Scripture correctly, isn't grounds for divorce, unless I simply can't live with it after an extended time of attempting reconciliation. Scripture does not support "A-ha! You've been unfaithful and now I can jettison you!"

And so, my spouse viewing pornography is not prima facie justification for divorcing her.

The question also does not resolve to how much hurt I have suffered, or how ticked off I am. Pornography does not damage a marriage - it hurts your spouse.

What is the Christian response to being hurt? Is it not forgiveness and acceptance? Is it not bearing with each others' burdens?

Change in topic.....

The Biblical discussions of marriage reveal a couple things:

-- Your commitment to your (presumed imperfect) husband was supposed to have been for life.
-- There is an exception allowed if your spouse has committed adultery, but this exception isn't carte blanche to cram any sexual misstep we think appropriate into the stated exception. Nor is this exception intended to be a home free card either.

-- The discussion of divorce in Scripture (at least the Matt 18 and similar texts) is based on a cultural semi-practice of essentially wife-swapping, or anticipated serial monogamy, based on a loose application of the ancient rules. The response that Jesus gives is that the men to whom he was speaking did not understand the "becoming one" expectation of the marriage commitment, and in their ego and slyness, had wrecked the lives of many women. Because the only reason allowed by Moses was adultery, if a woman had been put away, everyone else would see her as an adulteress - even if she had just burned the toast. That ramification it seems, is one these nice religious men didn't quite grasp.

-- The discussion in these passages is all about living with God character, not me-first views of the world and others - especially those who could not defend or fend for themselves.

So, is viewing pornography sufficient for me to jettison my spouse? In the simplest form, no.

But if my spouse, over an extended period of time continues incessantly to view pornography, flirt with other women, and refuses to work on the behavior and our relationship, maybe.

The real basis of divorce isn't what my spouse may or may not have done. It is rather, what is my decision after wrestling with what has happened and after I have determined that I simply and truly cannot get past it.

It is true that women whose husbands view pornography often have the same sorts of reactions as women who have been through some sort of trauma. It is a blow to their guts, their hearts feel crushed, they can hardly stand up. The revelation makes them question themselves, their competence, their acceptability, their personhood. It may make them feel "dirty" to have sex with their husbands.

None of that is good and it is an excellent reason why men who love their wives should refrain from viewing pornography.

So...

The answer isn't as simple as the OP seems to make it, and I am not in a position to "authorize" anyone doing anything that isn't in line with God-character. I do understand the extreme wrestling that people go through with these kinds of revelations, and I believe that if sufficient reflection is accomplished, whatever resolution is chosen will be acceptable to God.

But it's your call, not mine.

The word Jesus uses isnt adultery it is pornea. That word means many different types of sexual immorality apart from adultery, therefore it cant be said that adultery alone is the reason for divorce.
Also if the porn use damages the wife, of course it damages the marriage as well. Using porn is both very spiritually damaging to one doing it and is also very damaging to their spouse, so how can this possibly not damage the marriage itself.?

I've noticed that when it's the man who does something wrong in marriage, many here are quick to yell "divorce!" and vilinize him.

I guess I'm wondering about that quote from Jesus where he said, "Let him (or her) who is without sin throw the first stone."

I love the stone verse out of context. Especially when a professing Christian tells me I'm not allowed to highlight that they are living in sin. I'm supposed to keep it to myself apparently.

Yes, I know what the word is. It's been consistently translated as adultery for a couple millennia. I'm not sure that the word being pornea allows us to cram whatever we want into it for the purpose of authorizing leaving your mate.

My distinction between harming the marriage, and hurting the spouse, is that the marriage is an institution. Some folks don't mind ticking off an institution, but might think twice if they realize they're actually harming their spouse. When I do marriage counseling, I don't focus on the social institution of marriage, I focus on the two people caring for one another. If they can't bring themselves to do that, then there's no reason to be married.

The "marriage" is an outgrowth of the supposed commitment they have for one another. But the point isn't the marriage as a "thing," it is their relationship to and treatment of their spouse.

I totally agree with this, many on here and in chruch are very quick to villinize the man which is the roots of feminsim but wouldent being a prude in marriage be sexual imorallity?  Of course feminists will dismiss this because women dont have to do anything they dont want to do but men have to roll over lol, this whole thing is a big joke and the chruch is being reduced to a laughing stock, so many people in chruch have become total hypocrites.  The sad thing is its the churchs job to point the way to christ and many people are not comming to christ because the church is so sick and people like myself can be christian without participating in the hypocracy or pandering to the feminists but if that is all you know of religion you are more inclined to walk away from christ because of the way his suposid "followers" are acting.  I dont even care to get into all this blather of feminist disertation trying to justify sexual neglect in a marriage and that a man cant get rid of his wife for it.  Sexual neglect is alot more than burning the toast.  Thank God there is someone in here with a level head, I was beginning to give up hope lol.

I realize there may be more to the story, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.  However, I can see why some people do stray, doesn't make it right....but one can see.   









Yes we are supposed to submit to each other and that our body isn't our own..so to speak.  But we also make a vow to love, honor and cherish each other and part of that is respecting the other person's right to say no.  However, sex shouldn't be withheld all the time.  I agree with you on that one.  I guess I can see both sides.  If you don't take care of your spouse then someone else could....that's not right, but that is a reason for both spouses to take care of each other in all manners.

The thing is the right to say no is a catch 22 and is not really even biblical.  I agree there has to be SOME negotiation like if your on your period you might just give your husband a rim job and a BJ.  The part that is sin is when a wife just says eww thats gross and I dont want to do it and I dont have to, no where is that biblical and the bible even says when you deny your spouse you will cause them to stumble and your right they will find someone else who will (I know because I did), and I dont believe that is wrong if the neglect is done on a regular and continuous basis (regular and continuous is not what the chruch decides its what your husband decides, its how much time he can comfortabley go before he needs your attention, the same goes for the wife).  If you can go to counseling and the wife realizes she needs to do what her husband needs her to do then your ok but if the counseling fails the marriage fails.  The one exception would be if he were not recipicating the same sexual acts, the wife has just as much right to ask for what ever freaky sex act she wants so if he is the one pruding out then he is the one sinning against his wife.  To love and to charish does not mean I have to accept you being a prude, the whole love your wife thing should be the poster scripture for the feminist movement, everyone knows your to love your wife but its not unconditional just like christs love for us is not unconditional, we have to believe and "behave" to make it to heaven.

 

Agreed, that verse always gets used when someone who is sinning is told that thay are sinning and dont like it. Jesus never said that the women at the well wasn't sinning,but He told her to go and sin no more.

 

Havent noticed myself that the church is becoming a laughing stock.

You are still seeing everything thorugh your bitterness and your own situation only.You cannot see anything  through others eyes, only your own.   You desperatly need to forgive what you see as sins against you by your wife and you own church (not ALL churches, just one church). Unforgiveness will destroy you from the inside and and if you dont forgive, the bitterness will continue to grow and.grow.  The bitterness that you clearly feel towards your wife, all Christian women and the whole church is oozing out of all of your posts. Can you not see it?

 Courtgirl, his idea of being a prude isnt not having sexual intercourse but any woman who wont have very frequent anal or oral sex.
It is wrong to withhold sexual intercourse from our spouse, but if they want things that their spouses cannot bring themsleves to do whether it be becuse they feel that God has told them or whether it makes them feel really uncomfortable or uneasy inside they shouldnt have to do that. Sex can be extreemly varied without those things HAVING to be included if it makes one of the partners really unhappy.
 

 

if this poster had been from a man stating that his wife was probably having an affair, going onto sites to fine a man friend and looking at porn, then my  answer would have been the same. It doesnt matter to me whether it is the man or women who is being unfaithful or comitting sexual sin it is still wrong regardless.

You are just spinning and blathering, I noticed you added a so to speak in one of your posts on a key issue.  your interpretation of 1 cor 7 is not what is stated, sexual intercourse is not the only kind of sex and it is not stated exclusivly witholding anything that causes your mate to stumble is a sin.  The sexual intercourse bit is just your opinion. 

I think his point transcends just this one type of offense.

 

Is looking at porn a sin? if it is, is it a sexual sin? Pornea is used elsewhere in the Bible for other sexual sins apart from adultery. Porn is very damaging for a marriage and has broken up many marriages. If it isnt sexual sin (ie pornea) then what is it?

If lust is indeed actual adultery, and grounds for divorce that vast majority of men AND women have grounds to file for divorce right now.

Sin? Yes.

I know how pornea is used. How has the church translated our favorite passage since the first century?

It may be sexual sin, but it does not rise to the level that "authorizes" divorcing your mate.

It remains that, even if we can squeeze whatever sexual sin we please into an authorization to jettison your spouse, that still is not to be the first choice.

Oh well that was about a woman, so it's different.

 totally agree HR,
divorcing anyone  should never be a first choice, but for a spouse who is into serious sexual sin and is totally unrepentant and not willing to even try to stop, there may eventually be little alternative sadly. After deep betrayal some cannot ever trust their spouse again and without trust what is there?
 

I am not disagreeing with you or saying adultery is right.  I just said that I understand why people fail in that regard...I am not condoning it.  If you are to that point where you think you need to get it elsewhere, that spouse should realize there is a problem and try to talk to their spouse or get christian counseling.  I agree that there are certain things that would make people uncomfortable...like the above stated things.  No one has the right to make you do that or make you feel like less of a spouse for doing that.  A real husband or wife shouldn't want to make their spouse uncomfortable.   

What you just stated is a catch 22, what if he needs you to do something you dont want to do and it has gotten to the point he is looking else where for it, do you think conseling will help you want to do it or make him not want it anymore?

A man or a woman is not a prude for not wanting oral/anal sex.....I guess you think you own your wife and she must obey even if it makes her uncomfortable, if it does then she is a prude...she is not.....she is the one you should most want to make comfortable.

 spot on courtgirl.

Well, I very rarely post, mainly because no matter what one posts, someone will disagree with you to the point of insult, and I’m just too sensitive for that.  But here I go anyway.

My ex-husband was into porn and other “non-participatory” sexual activities (such as going to strip joints and topless bars) long before I met him.  He is not just a Christian, BTW, but a former minister, a teacher, and a counselor.  For him, it was an addiction - a control issue – he just couldn’t stop himself.  And before anyone says it, no, it wasn’t because he didn’t have a willing sexual partner at home.  Very much the opposite.
 
His actions never “crossed the line” into what most people would define as “adultery”, but between what he did, the lies he told about it, and the money he spent on it, he effectively destroyed our marriage.
 
In case anyone wonders, I did not give up on my marriage quickly or easily.  I dealt with his mess for twelve years, forgiving and starting over countless times.  But there came a point when I simply had to protect myself and my children from the pervasive consequences of his selfish actions.

It is not possible to have an effective marriage if there is no trust.  It doesn’t matter a bit to me whether anyone thinks I had “grounds” for divorce.  For me it was a matter of survival.

 Quinn
Well done for posting and yes you do have to have a bit of a tough hide to post anything here sometimes
Your story is awful and just the sort of thing I was thinking about when saying that so often these things are so destructive for both the spouse, the marriage and the children.
Also as you say it had nothing to do with whether he was having sex or not. I dont agree that most men 'have' to do this becuase their wives are not pleasing them in bed, that is a cop out. No one 'has' to do anything especially if it is sinful. We can choose to, but that is different.
As you say with no trust there is nothing.
I hope that things are better in your life now.
many men do this regardless of their sex lives, and regardless of how much is is hurting their wifes and marriages. 

Since I can't speak for the writer of the OP, and she is still married, then I cannot simply say that because her husband has viewed pornography (and whatever else), that she has a pass to divorce him. It isn't that simple.

I'm going to mix threads here......

This situation is different than the "at odds with my situation" thread, and may help illustrate my views a bit better. In this thread there is an existing marriage that both seem to continue to recognize as existing. Therefore, in this thread, that relationship needs to be acknowledged and nurtured (if possible) by both partners.

In the "at odds" thread, as I understand it, both partners acknowledge the end of the relationship. Because that is the case, I see no reason to pretend it still exists simply because a piece of man-expected paperwork hasn't been completed.

Im sorry to hear that, the fact that he had a willing participant at home makes all the difference in whos fault it is.  Im not sure why men act like that if they are getting what they need at home.  I think the reason why people disagree to the point of insult is becuase someone starts into a rant about something and they decievingly leave out critical information, like my sinful husband cheated and im so hurt blah blah and oh btw 8 pages later in the thread I stopped giving him BJ's but that should not be a big deal because I dont have to do anything I dont want to do and now he cheated and im pissy ::frown::  (where is the rolls eyes emoticon when you need it lol).  I dont know how people manage to complicate these issues into 8 pages of discussion, its not rocket science.

I still don't agree that we have no choice but to look at porn if our spouse wont do certain things that we 'have' to have. looking at porn is a choice,just as having an affair is a choice.We are all accountable for what WE do and not what others do.

if my spouse had an accident and was paralysed from the neck down, is it then OK for me to have an affair or look at porn? if my spouse had a long term illness and couldn't have sex do I then have the 'right' to look at porn or find someone else to have sex with? Of course not. 
He is still my husband and I have still made a promise to forsake all others in sickness and in health, for better or for worse.

'Rights' have nothing to do with it, it is what we do before God that matters. No one except ourselves can make us do anything sinful and we have to take responsibility for what we do and stop blaming others for our sins and justifying them. That doesn't wash with God.

Quinn & Choseone that is exactly right.  Viewing porn, going to strip clubs is a choice and it is considered adultery in one's heart.  Doesn't matter who's doing what the person making the choice to sin lustfully owns it.  Blaming their spouse or making all kinds of excuses like one male poster here continues to do is just a load of crock. 

rppearso,

I hope you read what was posted here. These are true words from a wounded wife. This is what I and many others were trying to tell you about insisting on a sex act from your wife she did not want to do anymore. See what it did to this person? She how it affected her and the marriage?

She felt like a used piece of trash. I would suspect not much different from your own wife.

Why should anyone in a loving marriage have to live and feel like this? Does anyone deserve to feel this way?

Thank you Sahg for sharing that.

I would say you do have issues, im not condoning his woman watching or porn use but when you cut him off like that this is going to be the result, it sounds like he was really into you for alot of years and you turned your back on him under the guise of "feeling used", my ex did the same thing, its the same cycle.  The woman comes up with a story that pulls at the heart strings of people reading about feeling like a prostitute and we are suppost to start man bashing her husband.  I could see going to counseling for the wandering eye and the porn but if you cut him off and started down the path of claiming to feel like a "prostitute" the counseling will be a waste of money and time.  I also agree he should give you hugs and kisses all the time but the bottom line is he is not going to want to if you just baited and switched on him for years.

sahg
thank you also for sharing that story. It sounds as if you have begun to heal and that is good. Pornography, which it seems your husband was into before you even met, can be incredibly damaging to a relationship and can destroy it as you have proved. People look at porn and of course they want to do things that they see there whether they are things that are good and beneficial to the marriage or not. Some porn is terrible and so gross. The things they do on some porn sites can be so sick and have no place in a Christian marriage.

It seems that he has left and wants no more of the marriage. If he has been unfaithful you definately have grounds for divorce, and even if he hasnt his behaviour is really bad. Once you are divorced, the marriage is ended and you no longer have to be faithful to him. You will be free to remarry a  Christian man if God brings one into your life.
  

Please know that the viewpoint of rppearso does not represent born-again Christian males...nor the heart of Jesus Christ. Its essentially worthless advice, so take what little you can from it.

Pornography is never acceptable, doesn't matter what the circumstances are. Sin is Sin. Your husband refused to meet your 'love language' needs and you refused to meet his. You were both wrong and you are seeing the consequences of both being wrong.

This is why God needs to be the center of the marriage. These situations won't arise if both marriage partners are being servants to each other.

So Mac lets take this through its normal course.  Wife decides 14 yrs into the relationship she feels like a prostitute (whatever) and stops doing whatever sex acts the husband needs to be fullfilled in the marriage and she blames the lack of affection and wandering eye (which you could work out in counseling) but the wondering eye is not really the issue its the performance of these sexual acts thats the bottem line.  Men get married becuase they have a burning passion and when the outlet for that passion has been cut off they will stray and porn is the first outlet, not to say he was not looking at it before but I bet its gotten worse hasent it.  This is the reality of the situation, if she did not like being sexual in every way with her husband she should not have got married.  So what if he grabs your butt when he gives you a hug and a kiss your his wife, you should be happy he is that into you 14 yrs into the marriage.

This being said I agree there are things he needs to work on as well (the wondering eye and the porn), but the stuff he has to work on is irrelevant until the prudishness stops, if your heels are dug in and you are no longer going to do what you have been doing for years in bed you might want to get yourself mentally prepared for a divorce.  This is your reality and what you are doing to your husband is not ok.  you can listen to others on this form man bash your husband but its not going to help your marriage.  The sexual acts he wants you should not stop doing, you should get into counseling and figure out what you need from him to feel fullfilled so you can continue to perform the sex acts he needs.  If you have already decided that you done you should let him know that so you can both move on with your lives so you are not pushing him into a position of commiting adultry on you, and from your thread title it sounds like you are already considering divorce so maybe you are already mentally prepared for what is to come from the decisions you have made.

You are going to get all kinds of blather from the peanut gallery on here but it will likely not help your marraige, some person on an internet forum saying yea your husband is living in sin and should be kicked out of chruch and burnt at the stake is not going to help your situation.  Only you can help your situation.  I am saying this as a man who was in this exact scenario and it ended in a divorce.  Whatever the sex acts are I can tell you right now its not dirty and withholding is not right.

Unfortunately, this is the advise given from a man who has no faith in God. Jesus Christ can save your marriage, but it requires Him as the center of both partner's lives.

Should your husband look at porn? no
Should you withhold all sex from him? no
Should you be offended that your husband still thinks your a catch (heavy petting)? Of course not
Should your husband be willing to work on a love language that you appreciate? yes

Marriage takes effort yes, but its the hearts that need to change here. If you are focused on Christ, the heart of a servant will keep your marriage strong.

his behavior is actually fairly normal (not right but normal), look at how many forums there are with guys that struggle with porn.  Porn is not gross and nothing is done in porn that should not be done in a marraige unless you are getting some kind of child porn or something way extreme.  I also think some porn for couples educational purposes would be ok as well, how else are you going to learn to do new things in bed, I guess you could read about it in text.  Your opinions chosenone are extremely prudish and stifling and have little to no foundation in scripture, you continually just get on here and post your opinion which has no scriptural backing.

  you havent got a clue what acts she is talking about so how can you possibly say that they are normal?

She should not withhold ANY type of sex from him, thats the point you are all missing.  As I said the decisions you make will determine if your marriage succeeds for fails, and I can tell you right now if you think intercourse once a week should be enough to make him happy you will have a rude awakening, I am not sure what the sex acts were you were doing before but to discontinue them will irriversibly damage your marriage.

"Unfortunately, this is the advise given from a man who has no faith in God" - really, that was a purely inflamitory and unfounded remark, although it does not surprise me since I am not affraid to speak truth.

Ok, I will make you a deal, if she is refering to bringing another woman into the bed room or golden showers or child molestation I will concede and appologize but I can 99.9% gaurentee that is not the case.  It probably has to do with BJ's, rimming, swallowing ejaculate, or anal sex which are all normal sex acts.

 

  Oh so it is ok to look at porn as long as it is for 'educational' purposes. Now that is a good one. Also not everything that is on porn sites is acceptable for marriage  there are some truly violent and perverted porn sites aound .

Your personal view is that anything goes as long as YOU want it. Hmmmm not very Biblical is it. Any women who wouldnt do ALL of the things that you want are prudes. hmmm not very Biblical. ALL of your posts are purely YOUR own opinion as to what you want.

So I am prudish and stifling because I disagree with you, hmmmmmm,well at least I am not into serious sexual sin anyway.
I will also say that my husband is definately NOT complaining about our sex life, and we have a brilliant marriage.So maybe not so prudish after all .

 your own opinion with no basis in scripture.

So if a woman doesn't do EXACTLY what a man wants any time he wants it ever she's a prude??
Spoken like a true christian...note the heavy sarcasm..... ::frustrated::

And another thing.....part of the marraige vows means to love and cherish in plenty and in WANT.

 who is talking about only having sexual intercourse once a week? YOU said that, no one else did. The people who you are talking with her are married people with mostly happy marriages.Also your assumption that all men want what you do is absolutely and totally wrong. You have nothing to base than on whatsoever. You are assuming that ALL men HAVE to have what YOU do, and that simply isnt true. You can ony speak for yourself in this and not all other men.

Unfortunately, the truth is not found in you. Show me the verse from the Word of God which states that if a wife withholds any form of sex, she is in sin, or at fault if her husband sins, or at risk of losing her marriage. Don't forget to find the verse that mentions she is willing to provide sexual acts...just not the one the husband specifically wants.

You won't find it. However, I can find you multiple passages where the God of the Universe came to earth and was a servant to man. So whose opinion should be held valid? God of the Universe, or you?

If you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move mountains. What does that say to you, the husband claiming woe is me because my wife won't give me oral? Seems that your faith (if there is any at all) is even tinier than a mustard seed.

I already have provided that passage you just chose to ignore it, there is nothing I can do about that.  You guys can go around in circles man bashing all you want it will not help the OP's situation.  She has 2 choices, she can keep going down this road that could very likely lead to a divorce and leave her to grow old alone or she can do what makes her husband happy and get into counseling for his wandering eye and the porn use.  It sounds like the OP's husband adores her if he still pays that much attention to her.  But you all are right she can do what ever she wants to do and each decision she makes will have its own unique positive or negitive consequences.

You have provided no such passage. You have read a verse that addresses sex (as a whole) should not be withheld from a husband. I agree with this verse.

You have said: "That means, if a wife withholds oral from the husband (even if she offers traditional intercourse) than she is disobeying the Word of God".

This is called "adding to the scriptures" and is expressly forbidden by God Almighty. You have provided no passage because it doesn't exist. Only what you would like to believe...exists inside your own head.

You have had several born-again Christians tell you that you are adding to the Word. You don't answer to us, but you will answer to God, so heed the warning and stop attempting to stumble God's children with your lies.

You see I dont care what you tell me becasue I am a very intellegent individual who can read the scripture for myself, I know what the scripture says and im not adding to it.  It says do not withhold from one and other sexually (so unless you dont believe oral sex is sex, in which case this becomes a very differnet discussion) withholding oral sex is still withholding a type of sex and it is defrauding your spouse out of what is rightfully theres.  The passage then goes on to say that if you do, you cause your spouse to potentially commit adultry (ie stumble).  It is a very simple scripture.

And...if your wife was withholding from you (offering no sex at all) you would have a case. But since she wasn't (just withholding what she was uncomfortable with at the time)...you have no case.

She was available to you anytime you wanted...you chose not to access her because 'boo hoo, that's not the flavor of sex i want. me,me,me who cares about her.'

So you see, it is very clear what the motivation was...selfishness. The Bible addresses this as well. You would argue with God Himself.

 I guess you can make a scripture mean anything that you want it to and you win the prize for  doing just that.
 As far as I know the Bible never even mentions either oral or anal sex (both of which you want) as being ok for marriage, but sex outside marriage is spoken about many times and you ignore those ones conveniently. 
If you are so keen on Bible verses look up the ones about no sex before marriage, and no sex while you still are married to another person. Look up the one that tells us not to be uneaqually yoked with unbelievers.
How can you pretend to care at all about what The Bible says when you are knowingly disobeying these things right now and have no intention of stopping.
 Rather hypocritical. dont you think? You accuse the church of being hypocritiical, but in fact it is you that are.

I dont need to argue with God, because the scripture is very clear to me.  I know I have things to sort out and that im not perfect but these are just warnings from my last relationship, as I said the OP can do whatever she wants.

My situation is a consequnce of my sexual needs being neglected, I am working to sort out my situation and I never condoned sex before marriage (I can lagitimatly argue what is considered a divorce and a marriage as outlined by the bible and not society but I still want to comply with the laws of the land which I am currantly working on).  The difference between you and me is you are saying its ok to defraud your spouse which is contrary to the bible and im saying if you do that you will end up in the mess I am in right now.  No matter how you dice it there will be consequences for the OP depending on what she decides to do and no amount of man bashing will make her situation easier.

rppearso,

This is what I see here. SELFISHNESS.

For you to say this:
"It sounds like the OP's husband adores her if he still pays that much attention to her."

My gosh man, do you have no feelings? Any at all? Whether you accept it or not this woman has been wounded because she figured out that her husband cares more about himself than he does her. Much like you and your situation. A man and a woman do not get married because they "burn with passion" as you like to say. They marry because they love each other. What is love? Let me tell you the biblical definition of love.

1 Corinthians 13.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

You may be an intelligent man, but you are ignorant to the true meaning of a husband, love and worse, the Love of Christ. You show NOTHING of Christs' love for others and trying to love your wife as Christ loved the Church. It is all about you. As long as get what you want, it is fine. Sounds to me that you have used scripture as a weapon against your wife when she denied your perverted wants. I can only imagine how you talked to her when you bring your filthy language to this forum.

Well, as far as I could tell, you found NO ONE to see it your way here. So, I guess we are all wrong for loving our spouses more than we love ourselves. We put their needs above our own. For such an intelligent man, you sure don't get much. I'll give you a hint... It's not always about you.

You know, I could get my wife to do things she wouldn't really want to do.. She would do it because she loves me. But she would lose respect for me as a man and my witness would be damaged because I cared more for my desires than I did her feelings. That is not Christ like. But I would NEVER, EVER ask my wife to do something she was not comfortable with anymore. I care for her to much. I would NEVER want my wife to look at me with hurt in her eyes. She trusted you... You don't deserve a loving wife.

And just for the record, I do not see how you can say anal sex is a natural act. I, along with many medical professionals, will certainly tell you that you are wrong. Nothing natural about it.

I need to go now, I am getting angry with you. And that isn't right either.

Well we will see how it plays out then, I am guessing she will remain in her stance and we will see where that takes her.  What about the hurt in your eyes from her neglect, of course that does not count and the mans feelings are irrelavant right Mac, if that is how you choose to live thats your choise dont try to spin things and bold print buzz words like selfishness.  Selfishness is wanting something without returning the favor, there is only so much one can take of giving and never gettting back before you start to have serious problems in the relationship but of course in the chruch this is only one sided in favor of the woman right Mac.

Selfish - concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others.

Did I not say he had issues to work on as well, if only one party is working on there issues and the other is not it will fall apart, if someone is working on there part with an expectation that the other party is working on it as well that is not without regard for others.

The scriptures are clear to satan as well. And yet he twists them every chance he gets doesn't he? You are being lied to by the enemy rppearso. You came to this forum, and this is quite possibly God's last attempt to get your attention. His children have revealed His Truth to you. Do you stand with God...or with yourself?

Incorrect. You can't even properly define a dictionary word much less the Word of God. Selfishness means self-centeredness. You only care about what you want. You don't care about how others feel. Its all about you, you, you.

Selfish is a perfect synonym for your lifestyle. Here's a link for your records: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish.

  Totally agree mac, anal sex is an unnatural act if there ever was one. Goodness you only have to look at the womens body and to have basic medical knowledge about what the back passage is and what it does to see that. If anyone claims that is isnt  then I fear for them.
If I am called a prude (as I already have been a few times) for saying that then I am unconcerned, as I know what is and isnt right.

She has already said she will remain faithful to him even though she is lonely. Oh, my... Can you imagine... She actually intends on suffering for another... Wow. What a foreign concept.


 Our job is not to seek vengeance. Only to live our life as Christ instructed us too. Even if I were married to a bad person, it wouldn't change the fact that I am to continue to live my life for the Lord. You can't reconcile your thoughts or actions with Scripture.


All I can say is, you better be thankful that Jesus didn't feel the way you do. He died on that cross for people who neglect and reject Him daily. Christ is Love. I hope you find it.

I cant buy into something that I dont believe to be true no matter how many people tell me it.  I dont care if 100 people told me 1+1 = 3 I would not believe them.

Maybe she would not be lonely if she did not prude out, all things have natural consequences.  You are just talking in circles at this point, God does not call us to foolishness, would you continue to allow someone into your house that continually stole from you?  You can forgive them but that does not mean you let them keep the key, are you really that foolish?

So, her feelings just don't matter... As I said, you do not deserve a loving wife. All I can tell you is this, What ever a man reaps, he will surely sow.


Talking in circles? No, I think it is more to the fact that you are not hearing us. All of us. Read the Word. That is my evidence.

Am I foolish? Maybe. If doing what the Lord has instructed me to do is foolishness, well yes, I am. And I am proud of it. I also love my wife. I am proud of that as well. I don't force my wife (or others for that matter) to do something only for my benefit. Yep.. You guessed.. I am proud of that too.

You don't have to believe men. Its written down in God's Word, in plain English, no interpretation by yourself is required. You simply don't want to believe God, which is a choice you are free to make.

No, I wasn't suggesting that anyone remain silent about his sin or not try to help him overcome it. It's a bad thing and does lots of psychological harm to everyone involved. I was merely suggesting that "divorce him!" was perhaps a bit extreme. It seems that society usually pushes guys to stick it out no matter what their wife has done to them, yet it's common for folks, even here, to encourage a woman to leave her husband for many things which are not Biblical grounds for divorce.

I'm just saying that everyone is imperfect and will do bad things so our first reaction should be to stick with them, work through it and keep our vows even during those times when it is "for worse."

Unless your entire life with that person is "for worse", unless of course you are just waiting for one of you to die so you can be free, as that is how I felt.  What kind of a life is that to live where you are just waiting for the other person to die.

A heartless and selfish one, which has been pointed out to you several times.

Am I understanding you correctly ?
Are you saying that if the wife IS submitting sexually to her husbands needs, but just isnt doing OS, that SHE is CAUSING him to be a letch and go get it elsewhere ?

Im sorry, but while I dont see where we have any scriptural reason to stick our noses into what SORT (OS, AS) of sex a marriage man and woman partake of in the privacy of their bedroom, I really dont see where scripture would even remotely claim that since she ISNT actually depriving her husband sexually, that somehow she is responsible of he cant control himself in his demands for some other sort of sex.

So if the wife gets her sexual jollies sticking forks into the male anatomy, isnt it 'depriving' her if he refuses ?

wow, i didn't think this would get to be such a heated discussion. i thank all of you for your input.there are some things i would like to make clear, i am not the perfect christian or the perfect wife, it does take two. i don't mean to bash my husband, i didn't think i was, i don't wan to disrespect him. i am just troubled by his porn veiwing and girl watching and his denial about it, i know Gods word says if a man lusts after a woman he has commited adultry in his heart, is that the same as physical adultry? and grounds for divorce?  as much as my husband hurt me and seems to be non repentive, i can't hate him. he said he apologises for all the hurt he caused me, but his apologies were bitter with anger.  i don't know if my husband is hurt by any of this he shows no emotion about anything, nothing seems to bother him. is that just how men are?he has always been in his own world looking out for himself,. i married him thinking he was saved, after living with him for all these years and learning Gods word and growing, i see he has no fruit of the spirit, you know a christian by their fruits. it's amazing how you really don't know a person until you have lived with them a number of years. i desperatly wanted a marriage like the bible speaks of, i tried to be the wife God wanted me to be, i wasn't perfect but i tried to be, i know i shouldn't have denied my husband of sex, but i told him the way i felt about certain sex acts and about the constant fondling through out the day how it made me feel so he would understand and respect me, but it continued, i was forcing myself to have sex with him to be obedient to the Lord, emotionally i began to die inside and became very depressed for a few years, i couldn't understand what was happening to me, i had completely blamed myself for the failed sexual relationship wondering what was wrong with me, he was blaming me too.this past year i found he has been into porn on the internet. i did some research on how porn will damage the christian marriage bed and it has, it was like i was reading about myself, God revealed to me that the way i felt about sex with my husband was was right, it wasn't my falt. certain sex acts are ok if both spouses are consenting , and it shouldn't get perveted and no one shoud be forced into anything perverted. he won't admit he has a problem. my husband was exposed to porn as a child and grew up with it, i think he has a problem he dosn't want to deal with, and it has ruined  our marriage, i believe sex is so important in a marriage and i have heard it can be a beutiful thing, iwouln't know. for all you men who cherish their wives and respect them, i hope your wives take a moment to be thankful for you, what a blessing to have a godly husband. i have a few words for mr.rppearso, you have some similarities to my husband, only more intense, you seem so bitter and arrogant and that is so unnatractive in a man,God hates pride. i can't help but wonder if your just here to get a rise out of us christians just for fun or do you really mean all the things you say. your issues about sex in the marriage are very disturbing, similar atitude as my husband, were you exposed to porn as a child? if so you need counseling. most of all from reading your posts i think you are in need of a savior.life is short here on earth, don't you see the world and what is going on around us? Jesus is comming soon. i'm not going to be left behind. my husband has turned his back on Christ, thats his choice, as well as yours. i will pray for you tonight, perhaps the rest of should do the same.

"So if the wife gets her sexual jollies sticking forks into the male anatomy, isnt it 'depriving' her if he refuses ?"

There is a word I heard on the big bang theory that sheldon stated where one takes a reasonable discussion to an unrealistic conclusion when they were refering to emergency supplies and how an extra person in the house would deprive them of emergency supplies and lenord said yea and then we would all become man eating canibals.  Anyways I wish I remembered that word because it applies here.  Let me know if you can think of that word.

FoC, thats funny, i needed a laugh!  

Ok lets just get this out in the open, what do you consider perverted?  I believe that is key to understanding the issue.  BTW I am not pridefull or bitter I am just frustrated with the man bashing that goes on in chruch and people using the bible as an excuse to be a prude.  If you want out of the relationship this badly why dont you just ask for a divorce and move on with your life and start looking for the man you want.

"certain sex acts are ok if both spouses are consenting " - this phrase is used alot in chruch and is not biblical.  The sex act need to become ok if even one spouse wants it 1 cor 7, show me the scripture that requires both to concent.

I am not condoning what your husband does but if you are being a prude it makes it exponentially more difficult for him to function properly in the marraige and makes counseling much much more likely to fail.

Yea, that's it. Just force her too. It doesn't matter what she wants or how it makes her feel... ::frustrated::  ::destroyingcomputer::

Yep, that right there is the loving spirit of Christ. I can feel in y'all.. Can't you? ::doh::

You still failed to deliver on the scripture.  If a woman is going to act melo dramatic when it comes to sex acts she should not be getting married at all.

I beg to differ Sir. I most certainly did provide scripture for you. It is in Ephesians 5. Here I will show it to you... Again.

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Look at this as well... Ephesians 5

3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

Good grief man. You act like that is the only reason you were married to her. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE LOVED HER..

I mean what in the world would you have done if she would have became incapacitated for some reason? Rape her? Divorce her? Adultery? What would you have done?

None of that is in a sexual context except the following "3But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity" do you think you maintain sexual pruity in the marriage by being a prude, you cause your spouse to stumble 1 cor 7.

"each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." do you notice the word AND, if the AND breaks down the marriage breaks down, no husband wants to love a wife who does not respect him and vis versa, however the chruch is quick to quote husbands love your wives but wives respect your husbands gets left by the way side because of feminism.  I do not believe God is happy with the convoluded standards and catch 22's the chruch is setting up.

Can I take that as a dodge of the question ?

honestly, it would not surprise me to find that youd be brought up on rape charges at some later date based on your complete misuse of scripture.
It OUGHT NOT have to TELL you that BOTH persons must CONSENT to the sexual act, friend. If you have to be told that then something is VERY wrong with your thinking.

If EITHER person cannot live up to the responsibilities of marriage and are ABLE to do so, then man or woman, they should not be dragging another person into a marriage with them.
Women neglect the sexual needs of husbands, husband neglect the emotional needs of the wife. BOTH are maritally destructive.
So...do you meet ALL of the needs of YOUR spouse as THEY define them (not you) ?

by the way, rppearso, there is NO defined prohibition against oral sex or the other in scripture.
There IS restriction against lying with a woman during her period, so its VERY odd that God didnt feel the necessity to restrict them otherwise in any direct manner.
Each married couple is responsible for their own sexual relationship and frankly, ought not be airing their laundry out in a forum like this. Its just asking for folks to disagree with them

You said it right, in that you will not believe what the truth is becuase you dont want to,as then you would have to stop having sex till you are married to a christian girl. THAT is the crux of the matter.Having you particular sexual needs met to you is absulutely everything and it comes first even before God. You need to make a choice but sadly you have made it and it is the wrong one. Dont say we didnt warn you.
I have seen people choose what THEY want before obeying God many times and it never ends well. He tells us not to do things for a reason, and for our own good. I can almost see what your future will be and unless you start to go Gods way it will not be good, it rarely is unless we change our ways.

 The word that you overuse and use wrongly more than any other is prude. if anyone whether man or women does not agree with you, then they are a prude. if anyone says that you are sinning sexually, or that your incessant demands for certain sexual acts is wrong they are a prude. Well who cares if I am called a prude, from you I take that as a compliment actually, as then God must also be a prude. So tell Him that and see what he says.

 you keep quoting that one scripture which says nothing about anyone having to have anal or oral sex as if it justifies what you are doing. it doesnt. You are clinging on to that one verse as if it is a life line, but it isnt. many of us have said what the Bible says about sex, about marriage etc etc but you ignore it. You accuse us of not quoting the Bible, yet you ignore the verses  that say you must not committ adultery, you must not have sex before marriage. You justify that by saying well everyone else does it(wrong). We could justify anything by saying that everyone else does it.
You so desperately need to acknowledge you part in all of your problems instead of which you are blaming the church, women, this forum, the divorce process and anything and anyone else that you can think of. it wont wash with God, we all have to acknowledge our own sins before God and repent and then stop doing them and then will he forgve us.

 

she says that she has proof that he has committed adultery, that is reason for divorce.
yes we should help people overcome their problems but only if they recognise that they have them, which he doesnt. he says that everyone else is the cause of all his problems including God for making us go without sex which is unreasonable, according to him.

 

sahg yes I agree that we do need to pary for rppearso and I have been . He is very bitter and resentful and that eats you up from the inside. Also about what you said, I do thank God very often for my godly husband who respects and loves me. I am truly a blessed women and I know it.

 

ditto

 

For rppearso the no 1 reaons for marrying is to have all of his different sexual demands met. The rest takes a very low priority. I also fear for any future wife of his who cannot have sex at some point for one reason or another.   

rppearso doesn't want a wife, he wants a sex slave. That's all women are here for in his mind.

FOC had good advice, what is done in the bed room is a private matter and it was wrong of me to bring it up on forums.  I think this very thread is probably inappropriate as the core of the issue has to do with the same issues.  This issue should be left to the couple to negotiate, divorce or no divorce, as this is a very private matter.  I actually think it was wrong of me to bring my issues to the chruch or this forum, they should just be delt with privatly between the couple.

You seem to think you have God's permission to divorce. And it shouldn't be up to the couple...it should be up to the couple who has God as the head of their marriage. A key ingredient missing in your prior relationship which assisted in its downfall.

Well we prayed, read the bible and went to chruch during most of our entire marraige.  When it came right down to it we should not have engaged the chruch as FOC is correct it is a private matter, of course I cant control what my ex does but I could have not engaged the chruch myself and she could have just done her own thing and that would have taken alot of stress of me.  Oh well such is life you live and learn.

Who cares what the church thinks? The issue here is what God thinks, and you don't have the right to interpret what He thinks.

Each one of us has to read the bible and intrupret it for ourselves, you can get study bibles that help you accomplish this task also.  If we dont have that right then we do we own bibles or even read them we can just go to chruch and the chruch can tell you what to do, thats how things were done in the midevil times.  I am curious as to why you are still fighting with me on this issue, I conceded that FoC was correct and you still continue to brow beat.

There is One Truth. Not millions of truths as to how the readers "feel" they should be interpreting God's commandments. Ask God how He feels about your former wife.

I agree there are not millions but there are a few differing opinions on inturpretation otherwise why would we have multipule denominations?  As far as my ex, its in the past and I am moving on but I agree with FoC that that is a private matter that I dont care to get into huge arguments over it anymore, it was wrong of me to bring up such private matters in the first place.

rppearso, your opinion on relationships is about as valuable as a child molestor's on day care.

Whatever

if we are in a church (which we do need to be) it is Biblical for a pastor or elders to challenge someone who they see is doing things that are wrong or sinful. If a marriage is in trouble then they can help the couple to see what is Biblically appropriate and help them.I feel that they do have the right to challenge any seriously bad behaviour whether it be the husband the wife or anyone else in the church.

What about when it deals with private issues that ought not be brought up?  What if an individual challenges the churchs inturpretation?

 I suppose that I am talking about things that are clearly wrong such as someone who is in a  gay relationship, or committing adultery, or divorcing someone for no reason and such like. of course it is up to the people whether they listen or not but I would think that if nothing were said the leaders are not doing what they should be. I am not talking about leaders interferring where they are not wanted, or being too controlling, I hate it when they do that.

Why rely so much on an organization? Why not ask God if He approves of your decisions?

I agree, I dont feel as if God is condeming me for my divorce (me having a GF is a separate issue), but I do feel very compelled to issue warnings to couples that have the seedlings of these problems going on because these issues are very serious and the chruch is forcing men to carry a much heavier burden then they ought to.  You can go around and around fighting me on this but ultimatly these issues if unresolved lead to divorce.  I knew I would get chastised like this for speaking truth because what I am saying is 100% against feminism but if the chruch wants to maintain any credibility they need to stop pandering to feminism and take some of the load off the men and start holding the women of the church accountable for sexual neglect and they need to stop making up scripture, there is no scripture that says the sexual act must be agreeable between both partners, it does say do not defraud one and other.  Anyways I dont really feel like going around and around on this anymore, you can take my advice or you can leave it.

Have you ever thought that the reason they put more weight on the mans shoulder is because that is the way the Lord designed it?

Did you know that women are created as the weaker vessel? 1 Peter 3:7
7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Maybe it is because we were made to take the lead in the relationship. Maybe, just maybe, that is why we (husbands) are to be the spiritual leaders of the family.


Truth only in your mind. Have you not even asked yourself why you are the only one here who thinks that is truth? Out of all the men and women who have posted, you are the only one who believes this. That should spark a debate in your own mind.



You know, the problem is that they do not see the things you are asking about as sexual neglect. I can 100% say, if you were talking about regular sex (i.e. normal intercourse) and she was witholding, they would agree with you. However, your insistence of this Oral and Backside stuff, even though your spouse is comfortable with it, is quite telling. And it flies in the face of Christian behavior.

Saying you love your wife is one thing, being able to give up something for her because she doesn't want it, SHOWS it through actions. For my entire adult life, I have always been taught that as along as it (sexual things) is mutually agreeable, it is good, ok or proper. I will continue to look for the Scripture's you need, although I think they are in the bible, I can't locate them as of now. I have been close, but not close enough.

Maybe that isn't in the bible, but it really doesn't have to be. It is in line with how Christ instructed us to live and lead our lives as Christian husbands. Love your wives as Christ loves the church. Not love your wife until she doesn't give it up the way you want it. If divorcing her was ok for lack of your sexual desires, why would it be ok for a wife not to divorce her spouse if they a nonbeliever. It seems that would be more important. 1 Peter 3

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.

Please think about these things.

The issue is if its not in the bible you begin teaching your own opinion as gospel.  The bible says that the husband should love his wife as christ loves the chruch AND the wife should respect her husband.  The bible also says do not defraud (it does not say you can defraud if you dont feel like it) one an other or you will cause you spouse to stumble.  I posed the question what do you think it means to stumble in a sexual context and no one answered it (no one wanted to because you know what it means), I dont care about winning an argument I care about getting my experience out there if even one person can read it and save there marriage that is a victory.  It does not matter if no one agrees with me becasue everyone has been speaking from personal opinion and non biblical church teaching.  The husband and wife have responsibilities to each other and if one or the other does not hold up there end the marriage will fail.  This whole arguement of "man up", "you arent sacraficing enough" or any other inflamitory responses are not valid and not scriptural.  Some might say the song of soloman is "controversial" but there is some pretty juicy stuff in there and people who are offended by the sexual acts my mate and I enjoy just shows you have a closed mind and/or a high schooler mentality and can not discuss things in an adult manner.  Just becasue a wife does not want to perform a sexual act for her husband does not mean her neglect is ok, what if I did not ever talk to my wife or hug her or kiss her becasue it made me feel gay and homosexuality is against the bible, that is the real distortion.  I wont disagree with you that I am in a non ideal situation but I would hope that other couples would learn from what I am going through, I am quickly fixing my life and while some may not agree that divorce was nessicarily "scriptural" I feel sexual neglect is equivalant to sexual immorality within a marriage, you can agree or disagree but it does not matter I have moved on with my life.  You can come up with what ever excuses you want to denigrate me but I poured myself out there in hopes some couple would see what I have wrote and think twice about there actions, becasue you can man bash all you want and say he is a schumck and a pervert because he wanted OS but at the end of the day you will be divorced and you will be picking up the pieces right along side me.

In cases where the wife is doing what she is suppost to and the man is still behaving poorly I will call the man out also but there is no shortage of condemnation in chruch on our side of the fence so I dont focus on it as illistrated from another poster on here whos husband was beating her up.

Just FYI - there were other serious respect issues outside of the bedroom that caused my divorce as well.

In a marriage, as it pertains to the husband, the wife is denying you access to her body. If she is denying you sex. Her body is yours. (<--Scriptural)

What does this have to do with you receiving a blow or rim job? Your wife's body was still yours to take at your pleasure. The question is answered, you simply do not like the result. (<--Unscriptural)

Well you can keep stating your opinion but it does not change the facts of what I wrote nor did you provide any thing scriptural to prove your point.

Also the husbands body belongs to the wife so if he is defrauding his wife of OS or whatever she needs then he is wrong as well.

I don't have an opinion in this...God has already decided this issue. Everything I just wrote to you is straight from the Bible. Whether or not you accept it is your own problem.

1 Corinthians 7:4
For the wife does not have [exclusive] authority and control over her own body, but the husband [has his rights]; likewise also the husband does not have [exclusive] authority and control over his body, but the wife [has her rights].

Ephesians 5:28 - 29
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church

 Here we go, I am sure some say I wear the pants, but whatever. There is no excuse for a man to do this. It is just sin, it is not an addiction, it is not childhood trauma, it is just sin. I would have my husband be very accountable, not have internet access with out my knowing everything, every password. I could forgive, but it would be an open wound where he would work, I mean work to earn my trust, or go find an Internet babe porn star to fulfill his needs. It is not you honey, though it makes you feel like you are dirt, it is him living in sin that is a willing kind of sinning. I would draw that line in the sand, as I would expect my husband to do, if I were involved in sexual sin. He would too, trust me. Kirk Franklin's wife sure drew those boundaries, as Stephen Curtis Chapmans wife. They had enough, and were going to kick their butts to the curb. Forgiveness and healing can only come when he quits wounding, and hurting you. what gives him the right to trample on your heart, love and emotions. Nothing is the answear.

Ok I agree but thoes scriptures dont say where the wife has the right to deny her husband or the husband deny the wife.  But it is much better that you quoted scripture than your own opinion because that scripture is much different than what your opinion was.

 You are probably the most hypocritical and selfish man I have ever ever known. Everything that you say to others applies to you and not them. You tell us that we have to provide scriptures yet you totally and 100% ignore these same scriptures that apply to your own life. What a hypocrite.
You justify  living in sin, committing adultery and marrying a non Christian, all things thats God strongly forbids, by saying that you HAVE to have oral and anal sex  ALL THE TIME so therefore you are 'justified' in rebelling against God and treating you wife as you did, and also care nothing for your girlfriends soul as long as she does what you want sexually. I fear for you. Start respecting and fearing God, that is my advice. He wont be mocked believe me. After being on here, you wont have the excuse that you didnt know, as we have told you many times what you need to do using scripture as well. You, however, cannot hear or see what is right in front of you.

Not to mention perverted.

 

amen lightshine on. There are things that we can do if our spouse is into porn, There are boundaries that should be set and if they are broken there need to be consequenses. If my husband was into porn I would warn him that if it continued I would leave until it stopped and then maybe we could try to build the marriage up again IF he stayed away from it.
We can enable it by doing nothing sometimes.
I feel SO MUCH for anyone whose husband looks at porn. it is a terrible very destructive things and makes men look at women as purely sex objects to satisfy their desires. It totally distorts what a good relationship is all about. That is why satan LOVES  it, especially if he can get a christian man hooked on it.

 yes chosenone, once again we agree. If you love your husband, you are making things worse, by letting him just sin, and sin, and taking no action. Not to mention women, wives deserve a health self esteem, and a healthy self-image. a man is commanded to give that to their women. Sin, and adultery, that is all that it is. A tiny black, black worm, in a mans head, with  big, ugly roaming eyes is a kind of unusual way I see it. That is weird, but when I prayed that is the image I got, weird or not. ::destroyingcomputer::

"Ok I agree but thoes scriptures dont say where the wife has the right to deny her husband or the husband deny the wife."

But where does it say that they have to do every form of sex act that the man says.  I suspect that if it were a woman angry that her husband wasn't doing this, then it would be okay for him to say no.

 Well, if my husband was looking at the naked women, I think in the spirit of the law, he has already gotten his needs met. I guess a woman could lay there a man could , essentially rape his wife, or she could lay there hating him on top of her, while he has fantasy's about the chicks on the net, thus, making him commit adultery in his mind. He could earn the privilege of becoming one again with his wife. God understands.

We know what the Bible says about sin.
We also know the reality of our culture on earth, good and bad.

Yes, porno is sin.  Jesus said if you look at another with lust, you have commited adultery with her in your heart.  If that is grounds for divorce......97% of christians would be divorced.  I think it is sin that needs to be squashed.

The reality of a woman divorcing her husband for looking at porn is arguable but not realistic.....even with Christians.  Hate to say it......but we all know the sick world we live in.  There are ALWAYS underlying reasons why people get divorced.  Sometimes, I think we as Christians want to pretend we live in this sheltered world......but we don't....its the same sick society we all live in.  Where same sex marriages are ok & women are almost naked in commercials, drug use is an every day occurence, & celebrities are in rehab and are glorified because of it.  We as Christians are in this world.........not of it.

 I'm sorry but you cannot say that 97% of Christian guys look at porn. That is just simply not true. My husband never looks at porn and nor did my first husband and neither does my adult son. I have many Christian female friends and none of their husband do either.The only case that I know of personally was a Christian lady whose non Christian husband was looking at porn and they are now divorced.

That is a very sweeping atatement. Even if it were true it is still sexual immorality and long term and unrepentant use of porn would give grounds for divorce in my opinion.Just becuase it is getting more common doesnt make it acceptable. After all adultery is quite common now but that doesnt mean that it isnt still grounds for divorce.

Please don't take this as a knock on you, but I work with men that view porn daily and their wife and family would walk through fire to say, "My husband would never look at porn". They believe what they are being told, and what they are being told is a lie.

Just because a guy doesn't look at it on the home computer, that doesn't mean he can't see it else where. (Internet cafes, work, library, etc...)

As sad as it is, some men would rather lie to their spouse than disappoint their spouse. For most men, definitely Christian men, porn is a no no. Looked down on.

I am not saying that all men look at porn. I don't. But I would never say I haven't either.

  If men look at porn in secret and their wives have no idea then they are also deceiving and lying as well as looking at porn.
yes I am sure that many non christian guys do it, to the world it is quite normal, after all, 'everyone does it' they will say. Also I know that there are many Christian men who do   also,However the women I know have husbands who don't do it.

. My hubby works at home and hates porn. he of course has the same struggles as any man but he is very strict about even seeing scantily clad women on the television and refuses to see any film with sex or partially clad women in it. he is very godly man. My ex also worked in a place where it wouldn't have been possible to do that at work and certainly never did it at home.
Christian guys are obviously a target for Satan in this area but to imply that 97% look at porn (and I am talking about regular use of porn)doesn't stand up to studies that have been done.

if any man who I was married to do regularly did it and wasn't prepared to even consider stopping or admit that is was wrong, then I would see it was a reason to divorce, for sexual immorality.Others don't agree, but as we have heard here from others, it destroys lives and marriages. If the person doing it wants to destroy their lives that's is their business but why let it destroy their spouses and children's as well?.

  Totally agree and it is hard to be different from those around us but we are called to do that It is hard when all the guys at work are looking at a naked woman to say "No thanks I don't want to see that"
 This is why for example we hardly watch any television and hardly ever go and see films because there is so little that hasn't got sex scenes, bad violence loads of swearing etc, but we don't have to see them as everyone else is. We don't have to do the things that the world does.
 Yes many people are unfaithful to their spouses and I have several couples in my family where the marriage has broken up because of this but we are called to be different. Gods standards are totally different from the worlds, and if we act just like everyone else how are we to be a light to those around us? We are supposed to be The body of Christ and I hardly think that Christ would look at porn.    The worse the world gets with its low moral standards the more we are to stand out for our own godly moral standards, and how can we do that if we are hooked on porn? That would be totally hypocritical. 

Read what I bolded, I believe you inferred something that was not written.  What 777 posted is true.  You don't need look at porn to lust.  If lust was grounds for divorce, the vast majority of men and women would have grounds for divorce.

So, should we take your opinion or God's Word?

 

It depends on whether you consider looking at porn as sexual immorality or not. Jesus used the word 'pornea' as the reason he gives for allowance for divorce. That word means many different types of sexually immorality and certainly not just adultery itself.

To me, if someone is repeatedly looking at porn, probably masturbating while he is actually looking at it,probably imagining that he is having sex with these women while he is having sex with his wife, then that is sexually immorality.

If you dont think it is, then what is it?

 Also the person looking at porn is not doing what God commanded to forsake all others and to be faithful to their spouse and to treat them with love and respect. He is breaking the marriage vows everytime he looks.

Porn is lust.  Looking at a woman too long on the street is lust.  If "adultery in the heart" is grounds for divorce, almost every couple has grounds for divorce.

Lust is not physical adultery.  Is it sinful?  Yes.  Grounds for divorce?  I don't believe so.  If it is, virtually every woman on this planet has grounds for divorce unless their husbands are blind.

 

 To me that long term use of porn that is totally unrepentant and deliberate and that the person wont even attempt to stop is a totally different thing from looking at a lady for a few seconds too long.(although some men are also very careful about not doing that)
.
Porn usage to me is being unfaithful even if there is no actual physical contact.

It doesnt really matter to me whether anyone agree or not,it is only my opinion.  We have seen from posts that it can and does destroy wives and marriages. That is why Satan loves to get people hooked on to it becuase it is so destructive. 
Porn use is sexually immoral, and The Holy spirit withdraws when a person does it. I have heard people tell me that from expereince.

I receive porn in my email a few times a week. Most of the time I can identify it and delete it...but sometimes its masked very well and I can't tell if it is a business email or something I ordered online. My wife has already caught me "looking at porn"...when I opened one of these emails.

Regarding lust though...if it is grounds for divorce than I should probably pack. Because I have lusted since I married. I have never, and will never, act on lust...but unfortunately, living in Southern California...many of the women here do not have morals regarding covering their bodies.

You are not alone. I think this is the norm in most places today. Young women and even older mothers wear clothing they just shouldn't. I live on the gulf coast, so summer time you get an eye full.

I have 3 teen boys and a "tween" daughter who will be 13 in Sept. The bathing suits the girls wear are awful. Skirts so short they can't bend over and pick anything up or they will show the world their nether regions. It is a trying time for young men today. But it is the godless world we live in.

I often hear ladies say things like, "Would you look at how that girl (14-18 yr.) is dressed. She looks like a tramp. Do her parents even care?" But if you look at the 35-40 yr old woman who just said that, she looks like a street walker. Skin tight blue jeans or slacks, thong underware hanging out of her clothes and no bra or VERY low cut shirts on. Showing too much of their chest... Way too much...And they wonder why their daughters dress that way?

It is a rough world out there. Very sexual in nature. Young men and women have a tough road to hoe...

I edited the edit. Sorry.

The problem with lust = 'adultery' (of the heart) being punishable by divorce is that if we are going to punish sins of the heart then this has to carry over to a similar precept from scripture.

*IF* lust of the heart being 'adultery' is grounds for taking appropriate action, then this man who hates his brother should, to be logically consistent, be tried for murder in a court of law.

I dont think that is the point in scripture with this sins of the heart where no physical sin takes place. The point isnt to give grounds for divorce or punishment on mans part, its to expose the sins of the heart to the person who lusts or hates his brother.

But any scripture to back up "your experience?"

Of course, you've hit the nail on the head.

 it is what others who have experienced that have told me. The Holy Spirit in us will not look at porn so of course he will withdraw.Of course the Bible does not say "If you look on the internet at porn I will withdraw from you" Our bodies are supposed to be a temple of the Holy Spirit.if we keep committing sexual immorality of any sort God will not stick around while we are doing it.
Gary you are not being realistic if you want a verse for every little tiny thing. Things such as porn on the internet or in DVDs or videos etc weren't around when the bible was written but sexual sin were spoken about in no uncertain terms.Looking at porn is a sin and is 100% to do with sex. What do you think Paul would have written to those who repeatedly do this?. He wouldn't have minced his words I am sure. He never did.  If a husbands porn use is destroying his wife and deeply affecting his kids then why would God want her to stay?
A lady who I know is a case in point. her husband used to look at porn including going onto swingers sites, when she was out at Church meetings and his two kids were running around in the room playing.  They were about 2 and four at the time. When she divorced him, the judge saw it as being so serious that the man was only allowed supervised visits once a week with his children.
Strange how a judge who isnt a christian sees it as so serious when even some Christians seem to think that a wife and her children should have to live in an intolerable situation for years and do nothing to protect themselves. This isnt just something that is not that bad, it is serious sexual sin and many women have said that it feels just as bad as if he has physically committed adultery. In fact some say it is worse becuase it is with many women and not just with one.
Just becuase he isnt physically touching them, he is in His mind and that is so terribly hurtful for the spouse. No one should have to put up with being hurt demeaned and destroyed by anothers sin.

Yup.

Definition - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lust

Isn't a tiny thing to say definitively that the Holy Spirit withdraws from someone based on the words of others, but not the Word of God.  Neither is it a tiny thing to say demons can be transmitted via sinful sexual behavior, etc,etc.

I ask for scripture, because I see a lot of things that you say as truth are based on the experience of others or some ministry, but not God's Word.  And not just in this thread, but others as well. 

 It isnt one ministry it is many deliverance ministries worldwide who have learnt certain things about delivering people who have been involved in porn, and other sexual sin of any kind. If others arent interested in listening of the experiences of these people or of what those who have had deliverance in this area have to say then that is up to them.Most Christisn have absolutel;y no experience of deliverance of any kind and I think that is sad and is also disobeying Gods instruction to heal and deliver.

The Bible expressly forbids lusting after a woman,(whch is what porn is after all) sex before marriage, sex with anyone who we are not married to, etc etc. The eyes are the window to our soul. if we allow rubbish in then guess what, The Holy Spirit doesnt hang around.
To look at porn with no sense of how bad it is, or how damaging, is a wilful sin, it is up to us if we carry on but if we do there are always consequenses. One of these is that it deeply affects our relationship with God, and another is that we can loose our families and destroy our lives and others lives.We can destroy our marriages and God holds us responsible for what we do to others.

I find it quite significant that those here who deny the seriousness of it, or that a woman who has almost had her life destroyed by it  can actually be allowed to leave the person who has done that, are men.
The women who have posted before have been ignored. THEY are the ones who know what devastation it has bought to their lives children and marriages.

 I thank God daily that I have a godly husband who knows that porn is something that God hates and who has very high morals in this area. One of the reasons that I fell in love with him. Men really are not helpless in this area. Looking at porn is a choice, staring at other women for far too long is a choice. I would never dream of staring at another guy, I love and respect my husband far too much for that.
.. We cannot avoid seeing people but we dont have to stare or lust after them.  We can turn away. Job made a covenant with his eyes not to look lustfully at another woman. if he can do it why cant we?

However I am not comparing the temptation to look at a woman in the street with long term deliberate use of porn, which is what this post is all about..


Gary maybe you can give me specific verses where it says that men can committ any type of sexual sin and their wives can do nothing about it to protect themselves and their children. God surely expects us to have common sense . Not every sin that we have today is mentioned in the Bible(the word porn wasnt used then) but if a sin is so serious that it breaks up marriages, and destroys people spiritually and emotionally , then that is one that we have to stop.If a man wont stop it,  after he is challenged and given boundaries, then to leave may be the only option for some women and her children as it was for the lady that I used to know.

  Does God judge the physical or the heart?   According to scripture he is most interested in one's heart.  It is clear that lust is serious for Jesus went out of his way to say to lust is to committ adultery in one's heart, so don't do it.   From what you are saying is that no living man can live a life without lust.   That's not true or that would make God a liar.   I could lust everyday too if that is  what I chose, but I don't.  One can see that woman or man that is attractive or very sexy, but they don't  "have" to go down the road of lust.  Every man or woman has a choice to go further down that road that will lead to lust which may be no more than two seconds, but they still have a choice. 

Sorry to say this but it  makes me ill to think of all the lies and betrayel happening within marriages.  Why get married if it's just a bunch of lies you can't help but ask sometimes.

If, a man or woman is looking at porn or watchng it and has self pleasing sex to it, then have they not committed adultery?  A one time offender be divorced over it, most likely not.  A regular user who is pretty much engaging in sex with the porn star with the exception of body parts and fluid being exchanged is adultery.  It's like a woman or man having  sex with dozens of different on people.   You are no longer going to bed with just your spouse, but all those porn stars they had sex with too.  I'd call it adultery.

Yep. It is almost like it is part of life today to lie and deceive your spouse. My wife and I made an agreement/vow that we would never lie to each other. NEVER. It has been difficult at times.. (i.e. trying to hide surprise parties, gifts, etc...) But in the end, we have held to it.

I watch so many people just lie about everything. I know they are telling a lie. They know they're telling a lie. But if you call them on it, it's as if you have no right to say, "Hey, stop lying to me." It is a real problem with the youth today. I have 4 children ranging in age from 17 to 12. My 3 oldest would rather lie than tell the truth it seems. They will lie even when they have been caught in a lie. It is really amazing.

But, back to what you posted, it is sad. But in today's culture, the rules are:

Don't get married unless you have had sex. "You wouldn't by a car without driving it."
What the harm in a little white lie? "What they won't know can't hurt them."
Always have an "extra" on the side. "A stupid man only has one woman."

And my favorite...
"My personal life is really none of your business. This is about our relationship.. Not my old ones. But if you must know, it's only been a couple of guys/gals."

Translation:
I have had multiple partners. I know you would frown on that so I will not tell him/her about it.

I agree. However, I think this is the issue that will plague us (Christians) until we are laying at the feet of Jesus in Heaven.

We know that a sin is a sin. There really is no "scale" when it comes to sin. Not in Gods eyes anyway. We have a hard time looking at sin that way. But to God, a liar is the same as a murderer. An adulterer is the same as a thief. And so on, and so on...

What we have to come to grips with is this, Can we openly sin, daily, and expect the Lord to stay (dwell) with in us? What you see as truth really depends on your "Denominational" teachings and beliefs. You have the once saved always saved crowd. Then you have the crowd that believes salvation is given (earned) upon death as long as you have fought the good fight. You have people who believe that as long as you treat others as you want to be treated, all is good.

Who is right and who is wrong? For me, it is like this. I believe the Lord dwells within us. I believe we are all sinners. I believe that when we sin, the Holy Spirit within us is grieved. That is why we are convicted in our thoughts and prayers. However, I do not believe it is possible to LIVE in sin everyday and be a saved, born again Christian. See 1 John Chapter 3.

 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.[/b]

So, what does this mean to me? It means that if a man/woman is living in sin everyday, the same sin life(porn, adultery, etc..), they have never known the Lord. That is scriptural. I don't think the Holy Spirit flees. The bible says that He will not leave or forsake you. Once you become His child, nothing will pluck you away from Him.

Anyone who professes to be a Christian, but there is no difference in their life than that of a lost or unsaved person, something is amiss. Your life will be changed when you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.

We all sin. Yes. But if we profess to have Christ within us, living in sin is not an option.

 I agree, and yet is seems that many dont think it is that bad. it is a betrayal by the user of porn of his spouse everytime that he does it and a horrible one at that. It is committing adultery on your heart by choice over and over and over again, possibly hundreds and  hundreds of times, with hundreds of people..

 have to agree. In marriage there should be openess and honesty and not deception and lies. Thank God that I have an honest man.

 you put this very well mac. We can grieve the Holy Spirit by what we knowingly do that we also know full well is sinful and wrong. If we choose to ignore God, ignore others who challenge us, and ignore our own conscience, then at some point God leaves us to our own sinful life.  He longs for us to do what he says but he will not force anyone to do it even though he knows that carrying on will  mean that they may loose everything.

I think the difference is what you and I consider God leaving us to our sinful life. Yes, this is exactly what he does. Turns you over to a reprobate or depraved mind. But if you look at the scripture associated with this Scriptural teaching, God is talking to and about people who know right from wrong but refuse to listen. Not Christians. See here in Romans 1: 18-32 New king James uses the word reprobate, while the NIV used depraved. Same thing basically, but different words.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

The Bible goes on to tell us about the mentality of people in the last days. Talks about people with a depraved or reprobate mind. See here in 2 Timothy 3: 1-9:

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
 6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Then in Titus (1: 5-16), we learn what the difference is between Godly people and depraved minded people when it comes to the church. Notice that Paul just told it like it was here. As far as the lack of similarities between a Godly man and one who only claims to be.

5The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
 10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

From what I read, it seems you are saying that a person "loses" the Holy Spirit when they continue to sin. But I believe that through scripture I have pointed out that these types of people do not know the Lord. ! John, Romans, Timothy, Titus... Of course there are more, but these are really good scriptures that plainly say what needs to be said.

Mac I can see what you are saying.However, have known strong Christians who have committed adultery (such as my husbands ex wife)and other serious things, but I believe that they are still Christians. I do think that the Holy spirit does seem to withdraw for a time if we are into serious sin. I am not saying that we loose our salvation permanantly.I really dont know
I like to think that we cannot loose our salvation, and there are verses to support that, but my husband has studied this and he has found verses that imply that we can loose our salvation if we knowingly carry on sining despite God giving us every chance to stop.As for me I wont be taking the risk.
It does say in revelation that those believers who take the mark of the beast will be lost, so that is one way that we can loose our salvation..

I guess we all need to fear God, and be very serious about not testing Him out by knowingly sinning sexually or any otherway. We all know that porn or any other sexually immoral sin is harmful, damaging, and destructive and we all have the choice to do it or not.
However if we choose to do it there will be bad consequenses as there are for all such things, and one may well be that our spouse may well
leave and we will loose everything. Our choice.It also badly affects our relationship with God and make us spiritually weak and inneffective.

I haven't known strong Christians who commit adultery or other serious sin. Sin is sin. In Gods eyes. However, we do not look at sin that way. For instance, if you were to ask me what would be worse... A man to murder someone or a man to lie to someone. I would, without hesitance, say the murderer. Most logically thinking people would. God, according to scripture, would see them the same. But that is one of the many things that we can't wrap our "human" mind around.

It is one thing to sin.. We all do. But to say "Strong Christians" are going to live in sin for a long time is not scriptural. The bible says we can't do that.


Withdraw may be the wrong word. You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't. If the Lord withdraws, then the scriptures are not accurate.. Therefore all of it would be fiction. If any part of the Word was to be proved wrong, the whole foundation of our faith would crumble. But it has and will stand the test of time.

John 10:28-29
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Then we have the Word of God being truth and withstanding time in Isaiah 40:8

"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Yes, that is a very deep, divisive issue among different denominations. I too have studied this and found evidence of both. It is very confusing when you put a lot of thought into it. That is why I think that it is very important to understand salvation and what it means to you.

I have seen people "caught" up in the moment and say they accept Christ. But then, there is NO change in them. They said a sinners prayer just to be sure.. Kind of like an insurance policy. You know, "Well, I can't risk it being true so I will do this. That way I am good."

That is why it is important to study scripture and understand it. That is also why we need to be in a good fellowship and be a part of good teachings and bible study. Salvation is an all in or out thing. You are either saved or you're not. There is no in between. Hot or cold. God hates the luke warm. They are just as lost as the cold, but they do damage to the Christian body by distorting scripture for their own good/lifestyle. Bottom line is, either you believe scripture or not. If you do, then you know that a person who lives in sin is not of the Lord. In fact, scripture says they're of the devil. That is VERY strong words there. But they are biblical. And they were put there for a reason.

We all know people we like. You know, that nice fellow or gal... Wonderful person.. Do anything for anybody.. But they are lost... Ohh, they say one thing but DO another. It is hard to see them for what they are. But it is possible. If it weren't, scripture wouldn't tell us how to differentiate between the two.


You are 100% correct.


As sad as it is to say, no, there are people out there that do not think that is wrong. And they try to justify it in a Christian life.


Yep...

mac are you saying that if a person looks at porn and isnt repentant, or committs adultery or does something else really serious that they arent a Christian? I know a few Christians who have done awful things and some who havent repented or even admitted to what they did, but they would still say that they are Christians.
For example my husbands ex met another man, divorced her husband and had an affair while the divorce was going through. She has never said sorry or shown any remorse to my husband (her ex) but she may well have repented to God. On the other hand she justified divoring him in all sorts of ways,by lying and twisting things. She would say that she is a strong Christian and she became a Christisn about 35 years ago.

Another example,  My husbands mother has tried to break up all of her sons marriages and yet claims that she is superspiritual and  a very strong Christian and can do no wrong.She denies ever doing it. Is she then not saved becuase of her appalling actions?Where do we draw the line?

Well, both of those are examples of things "strong" Christians just wouldn't do. I take offense to someone saying that. I am a Christian and God willing, would never cheat on my wife. Or look at porn. I have seen it, but definitely knew I had looked at something that I shouldn't have. Heck, if I look at lingerie ads without my wife, I feel dirty.

I am not trying to say, "look at me, I am perfect." All I am saying is that I strive to be like Christ. If I sin, I repent of it and move on. Try not to return to that sin. The BIBLE, not me, says that it impossible for a man to practice (constantly live in) sin and know the Lord. In fact, the Word says that they have never known the Lord. I did not say that. Scripture did. And, this is not some ambiguous type of thing. The scriptures I posted are very straight forward. I do not see any confusion in what it says or means.

 I agree with you mac. I have seen so called 'mature' and 'strong' Christians doing awful and ungodly things and have always wondered how they can do them. I couldnt live with myself if I did many of the things I see others doing. I couldnt sleep at night if I even told my husband a little lie or something small. Both my husband and I are very honest people and I find it so hard to understand the deception and lying that I hear about on others marriages.I hate betrayal and unfaithfullness in marriage whether it be through porn or sexual immorality of another kind. There is no excuse for it ever.
I am also very big on fairness and I hate it when I see people treat others so unfairly.

You sound like a godly man like my husband with high moral standards, and they are  rare indeed. He would never look at anything remotely suspect and made up his mind as a young man not to lust after other women, and never to be unfaithful to his wife.Even though his first marriage wasnt a happy one for him he never did anything to break his promise to her to be faithful.
 It is actually a decision that we can make.Is he tempted? of course, he is a normal man, but he sticks to his decision and would rather close his eyes than see something he shouldnt.  As he says , these other women arent his to stare at. They are other mans wives or will be one day.
God Bless

Very wise indeed. I am a normal man as well. I like woman. But, I love my wife and more importantly, the Lord more. I am not immune to the desires.. But that is exactly why I do not expose myself to pornography or have friendships with woman, outside our marriage friends of course.

I guess that is what I am talking about. I KNOW if I allow myself to look at stuff like that, it will have a bad impact on me. I would be disrespecting my wife and yes, I feel that I would have committed adultery in my mind. Because if I acted on what I saw with my wife, what would I be thinking about? What got me to that point? There is just nothing good to come from it.

I am not insinuating that Christian men and women do not stumble. They do. They can even get caught up in the moment and commit adultery. But, they will not STAY in that  relationship. If the Lord is in them, they will rebuke what has happened, repent and move on. Does that mean there won't be consequences? No. Absolutely not. It could cost them a marriage. If they were single, it could mean illegitimate children. It could mean STD's.. You name it, it could happen. But it would be a harvest from the seeds planted. Reaping what we sow...

I think the hardest thing for most people is, the fact that WE are to sacrifice unto the Lord. Not the other way around. Jesus did not die on that cross to give me unlimited satisfaction of my flesh and desires. Just do what I want then say, Hey, I'm a Christian... It's ok...

I have always had a problem with willful sinning and willful sinners. I may sin. But I did not wake up in the morning planing on a sinful day. There are many people who call themselves Christians that plan a sinful day. The only time they see a church or pray is at Christmas or Easter. Other than that, they live a life no different than a lost person. I just can't accept that. I may be wrong. But I am willing to stand before the Lord for that idea though.

There are also Christians who do go to church regularly and who do pray and read their Bible who do these things also. Those who I described do these things.Its sort of troubling what some are capable of.

I think we are on the same page here. I also cannot understand those who, as you say, are knowingly in a sinful relationship or leading a sinful life style who just justify it and dont stop. They are playing with fire and also with their own souls possibly. We do need to have a healthy fear of God, as well as allowing the Holy spirit to lead us and speak to us about what we need to do.
As you say again, we all sin, and we all have weaknesses and temptations but who do we put first?. God and our spouse, or oursleves and what WE want to do no matter how damaging it is.

We do reap what we sow indeed. God is merciful if we do repent and are truly sorry,then He forgives us totally and then we need to stop doing whatever it was.  We need to learn from our past mistakes. yes we may slip again but if our heart is right and we are trying to live His way then he knows that and will forgive us again.

I think anyone who falls into this category needs to take a look at their personal relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit either resides within us, or he doesn't. I mean, what is the Lord doing? Going on vacation while you sin?.. Just get your jollies until you are caught or a consequence appears, then the Lord returns because you are sorry? I just do not agree with that.

We are to repent daily... Unconfessed sin between us and the Lord leads to prayers not being heard. That is biblical. You may sin for a short time, but to live in sin is impossible. So says the Word of the Lord. Not me.. Not you.. But the Lord Himself...


They justify it through their twisted idea of what a committed Christian is. There are many that believe they just say the sinners prayer (found no where in the bible), and that's it. No life change. No nothing. That is wrong. Christian life is as much about actions as it is faith. Works will not get you to heaven, but we are expected to do our part to further the kingdom of God. Living a disgusting life and claiming to be a Christian only destroys Christs' church. But that is why I believe the bible says "Many" will not make it to heaven. The bible also says many will will say, "Didn't I preach in your name.. Cast out demons", etc.. And the Lord will say, Away from me for I never knew you. It is easy to talk the talk. A whole other story in walking the walk.


We should fear the Lord. The bible says that we should work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

We are promised that our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west. There is significance in that because they never meet. North and south do. East and west do not. So yes, our sins are forgiven. But for those who claim to know the Lord but have never changed and live a life as a lost person does, I will never accept that. It is not reasonable. It is not fair to the ones of us who do sacrifice daily.. And the most important thing is, it is not biblical.

It's pretty sad to begin marriages or live in marriages full of lying.  Truth matters to me alot.

I have done a number of sinful things including look at things lustfully since I became christian at a young age.  Not proud of any of them and I repented and pray for God to continue to help me.  I am in need of my Savior everyday, yes I need him and his help  everyday.

Mac, Do you believe a christian could back slide and then return to God ?

 

hope you dont mind me answering this question. I do believe that this happens a lot and we only have to look at the way the Father welcomed his son back in the story of the prodigal son, to see what Gods heart is on this. There are many Christisns. especially those whp were bought up in a Christian family, who went away and came back.God welcomes us back with open arms I believe.

I believe this as well. The bible says if we say that we have not sin we are liars. It also says that God is married to the backslider. We are not saved by works nor is it maintained by works. It is true we miss out if we don't allow God to work in us and may just scrape into heaven.

I do not believe one can lose their salvation through weakness but you can reject christ and his grace by choice which is a fearful thing spoken of in hebrews and other places. This is not talking about the weak and fearful believer wondering if they are still saved (they are) but about one who having known then rejects christ in my opinion.

Blondie, it depends on what you call back sliding. If you mean do we sin, then yes. Can we live in sin constantly? No. Not according to scripture. 1 John 3

People who claim to be a Christian and profess Jesus as their savior but show no fruit of the spirit, have a problem. You see, either man is right or the Word of God is right. There is no, "well maybe my situation is different." NO, it isn't according to the scriptures.

I realize a lot of people do not agree with that stand, but I can't help that. Our role as a Christian (follower of Christ) has been watered down by man. And in some parts by certain denominations. We live in a time where everybody loves the idea that we can live our lives however we want and still be ok. Well. as I said, either man is right or Gods Word is. Can't be both.

Problem most people have is selective scripturing.. If that makes any sense to you. For instance people will use the, "Drink and be merry" part of one scripture to justifying drinking and getting drunk. But the bible also says that drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, who is right? Man or the Word. Can a man drink with out sinning? Yes, of course. Can a man get drunk without sinning? Not according to the Word. So, where and how do they justify their 2 or 3 mights a week getting plastered. Or the month long Mardi Gras celebration here where I live. These people? They will be the first to say they are a Christian. Are they? Does their life show it? Can they reconcile the life they live with the Word of God? On what our life should be like if we have Christ within us? No, I do not think so.

So to answer your question... I know we all sin. We will sin until it is over for us here on this earth. But we repent. We move on. Try to sin no more.

A "backsliden" person has lived years of their life without any repentance at all. They have lived a life of the flesh in every way. I would have to say they never knew the Lord to begin with based on scripture. 1 John 3.

Mac I do not justify backsliding. All I am saying is you do not lose your salvation because of it. We probably all backslide a little. None of us is perfect. We are exhorted to keep following christ. The danger I feel is others setting a legalistic standard for us from outward appearances.

I was watching Love Won Out the other day where an ex lesbian ans homosexual were speaking. When they got saved they did not immediately break up with their partners but gradually began to see their error and come out from it. It would be easy to judge them while still in the relationship but God was working in them. Nobody is justifying it but they could have been easily stumbled if someone had come up and set a legalistic standard for them.

What I am saying is one should not set a legalistic standard for someone on a personal level. It takes time for one to grow. It's okay to preach holiness but the other side of the coin could be to judge others who are not making the standard if one is not careful. 

You are exactly right. Once we accept Christ as our savior, the journey begins. But evidence of the fruit will start showing. Slowly but surely, our life as we lived it before will begin to fade a way. As the Lord "cleans" us up and our walk with the Lord starts to mature.

A person will not be completely changed overnight. But you will see evidence of the Holy Spirit. Things we were never convicted of before (i.e. our lifestyle, habits, etc..) will start to bother us. There is change. It may take a season.. But it will happen.

What I described in my earlier post are people who say they were in a state of "backsliding" for 20 years.  No, I am sorry. I do not believe that. Because, if that is true, then the scriptures are wrong. And if one is wrong, they all are. No, I think someone in that position never accepted Christ as their savior. Can they change? Yes.. Can they accept Christ as their savior? Sure. But I think that the excuse of "I was Christened as a baby" or "I was baptized when I was 4" is just that. An excuse. Unless you accept Christ on your own, you are not saved. A pastor, priest or your parents doing it for you when you are an infant/baby is not the same. No, YOU must do it on your own.

Can a person lose their salvation? Well, that is a subject that as been debated for as long as it has been taught. Some believe yes.. While others say no. Both point to scripture to provide evidence of their stance. In the end, I can't answer that question to anyones satisfaction.

For me personally, I believe once a person has accepted Christ as their savior, truly accepted, that nothing can pluck you from His grasp. But the rub is being "truly saved". Am I being legalistic because I quote scripture? No.. I am not. Does it cause discomfort for someone because of their life choices to continue to live the life they always have? I am sure it does. But it boils down to this... Can a person who knows the Lord continue to live in sin? To practice sin? According to the Word, no they can not. Can a person claim to be a Christian and show no fruit of the spirit? No, I do not believe they can. Again, I have scripture on my side.

Scripture was given to us as an instruction book for our life. Do we like what it says all the time? No, I am afraid not.

I will say this again... The Bible says that "many" will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Why? Is it because we have a vengeful, mean creator? A God that doesn't love us or care? Or because we willfully chose to have our own way?

God loves us so much that He gave is only son to die for you and me... So, we know He cares.

In the end, it is our choices that will either bring us to or separate us from the Lord.

I do not believe a person can be saved and still live an evil life. It is contrary to the scriptures. Is that being legalistic? I do not think so..

AMEN! MAC! I AGREE!

There are many young people in particular, who stray away from Jesus having made a committment to Him in their childhood or teenage years. This is pretty normal for many as they have to find their faith for themselves. Sometimes it takes may years for The love of God to draw them back, but many do come back and I believe that God does welcome them back with open arms.
The prodigal son bahaved very badly, and only really went back when he had nothing left and was in the bottom of the pit, but The Father went running to meet Him.

I believe that if anyone strays, God starts work immediatly to draw that person back to Himself, and leads and guides them to come back. I have seen this many times in those who I know.He is the God of second chances. He forgives over and over, as He tells us to do also.

Someone who is supposed to be a Christian but is living a very sinful lifestyle is different, and they will  need to stop and repent and go Gods way or I would fear for their future.

ALL CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS ARE REDUNDANT!!

(I just felt like posting that....carry on....)

What is your biblical support for this stance? Other than a parable about the prodigal child. There were 4 total parables told in that part of Luke. The parable of the Lost sheep.. Parable of the Lost coin.. Parable of the lost son... And the Parable of the shrewd manager. All of these were told in response to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law when they questioned Him being at the table with the tax collectors and other sinners.

I appreciate your drawing a comparison to the parable and how the Lord treats His children, but it is only a parable. Jesus did not communicate any such delineation between the parable of the lost son and Gods acceptance of an unrepentitive sinner.

Also, how do you reconcile your point of view that although these people may "stray", with these scriptures?

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:7-8
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

1 John 3:9-10
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.

These scriptures plainly state that if you live a life of sin, you can not know the Lord. So, again, how can you reconcile your point of view using a parable?


Yes, He does welcome them. However, I would argue that they never accepted Christ as their savior to begin with based on the scriptures above..


Yes, but it still didn't change the fact that his inheritance was gone. The father told his brother that everything I have is yours. But what are you saying? That scripture doesn't pertain to people who were "brought" to Christ at a young age? Salvation is yours and yours alone to work out. Not your mother.. Not your father.. Not the priest.. Not the pastor... No matter what they have done when you were an infant or very young child means nothing. A sinner must repent. A sinner must ask Christ into his/her heart.. The bible says that a man can't and hasn't ever known the Lord if they are living in sin. What does that mean to you?


No. He is the God of FORGIVENESS.. Find me any scripture that says God gives you multiple chances. If you believe that, coupled with what scripture I posted above, you must believe that salvation is earned some how. You either have it (salvation) or not. The bible describes what it is like to have the Holy Spirit in you. Fruit of the Spirit... How to Love.. How to forgive your brother.. etc...

How do you justify someone who has NO attributes that a saved Christian would have? How can they have what I have? If they can, why should we even sacrifice at all in our lives? Why not just live life to it's fullest? I mean, God forgiveness is unlimited right?

Do you believe this way because you are certain, through scripture, that it is this way? That a person who claims to have Christ in them but live a full life of living in sin, is ok with the Lord? Do you believe that? Or do you believe it because man has said it is so. Of course, I would love the idea of no accountability...

I leave you with this..
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

If the problem persists, yes.

I speak from experience. It is a form of adultery, IMO.

Mac,

When a person who views porn knowing it is sinful and does it anyway, but they have this internal tugging at them or if a Christian is in a bar but knows they don’t belong there, they are uncomfortable again they have this tugging at them.   If, they are not a Christian then what is that is tugging at them, knawing or convicting them?   Would an unbeliever experience any of those internal turmoil’s or convictions?   

I agree Becki. I always call it mental adultery and many wives go through hell because of this. If a wife wants to leave because of it I wouldn't stop them but neither would I tell them to leave. It would be their decision. We cannot know the hell of it if we haven't lived through it.

Off topic I know Gary

On the subject of backsliding I believe there are millions of christians in dead churches who are not living to their full potential. God knows if they are saved or not. I don't think we can judge that. It is pretty obvious to me there are thousands of backsliders. I am probably a backslider compared to the potential that God sees. It's a case of revelation and pretty relative I think.

An intreaguing verse that Mac quoted is 1 John 3:9 where it talks about whoever is born of God does not commit sin and that he cannot sin. Yet in 1 John 1:8 It says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That the blood of Christ cleanses us if we walk in the light surely proves that we do sin and need His blood daily. This is off topic as well and one doesn't want to get carried along another theological debate but I don't think you can say that there are no backsliders and they must be people who are not saved. Even the chap who slept with his fathers wife in Corinthians was still saved as he was delivered to Satan for a time for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit might be saved. 1 Cor 5:5

I never said a Christian will not commit sin. Committing sin and living in sin are two different things. I will use an example to try and illustrate my point.

Lets say I am outside in the yard building a fence.. While nailing up a board, I hit my thumb. I get angry and say a loud curse word. The bible says, in your anger do not sin. I didn't sin by being angry. I sinned by cursing. So, I repent... Allow myself to calm down.. Apologize to the shocked people who just heard me curse as well. Move on..

The other side of that.. I do all the same as above, only I release a vulgar diatribe. As usual. I do not ask for forgiveness, because I live like this everyday. My friends and family are all laughing at me as my fingers bleed... My foul language did not bother or surprise them. I talk like that every day...

Do you see the difference? There is one.

I firmly believe that the Lord tries to get through to us all the time.

Rev 3:20-22 
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

Here the Lord turns people over to a debased or reprobate mind. Romans 1:18-32

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

So it is obvious there is a difference. Do we sin? Yes.. Do we stay in sin? No. We can't.

Your right. But the Bible says we can know who the children of God are. Jesus told us that we will bear fruit are of Christ. John 15:1-8

1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Jesus also said that it is impossible for a good tree to bear bad fruit, likewise, it is impossible for a bad tree to bear bad fruit. Matthew 7:13-23

 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit
 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


Really? What do you base this on? Are they backsliders or are they just lost people who have never known the Lord?

Again, I know we sin. But, If you have Christ living within you, you can't live in sin. I am not sure what you consider backsliding. If you mean we sin, well yes, we do. If you mean that I may end up in a sinful situation that last a little while.. Yes, I believe that happens as well. But if you are saying that people can live life for years in a life that is contrary to the Word.. Living a life that is full of sin.. i.e..sexual immorality, homosexuality, adultery, etc... and thinking that the Lord is just waiting for you to get your jollies, sow your wild oats... then I do not agree with that.


When looking at these intriguing verses, it is easy to see what the point is if you look at the scripture leading up to and after the verse.

1 John 1:5-10
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Then we have 1 John 3:4-10

4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

In chapter 1, we are told that if we deny being sinners, that is to say we have no sin in our life, we are a liar and we do not know the Lord. But if we confess our sins, He will forgive us of our sins.

Then in chapter 3 the Word tells us that if you continue to live in sin (no one who knows him will keep on sinning), you do not know the Lord.

Nowhere in those scriptures does it say that we will not sin. It plainly states that if we say we know the Lord, but sin runs our daily life, we are a liar and do not know Him.

I hope that clears up any confusion. I also recommend reading 1 John chapter 2. It is a good read from chapter 1-3. ::tippinghat::

I suppose the original topic was is Sagh's husband saved because he watches porn etc? You don't believe Mac that a christian can fall that low and that he probably wasn't a christian. We don't know for sure but we do know that a christian in Corinthians slept with his fathers wife and was still saved in the end. I don't see any difference with Sagh's husband although the sin was different. Everything is hypothetical but I would say it is obvious that christians do not necessarily lose their salvation because of gross sin, far from it. You haven't really proved your point, to me anyhow, that someone in gross sin was not a christian in the first place. It's just a point that cannot be proved. They may or may not be christians.

Your verse 1 John 3:9 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

What version are you using? Mine says: Whoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Original Greek word for word (no grammar) Everyone having been begotten of God sin not does, because seed of him in him remains, and he cannot to sin because of God he has been begotten.

So it seems we use different versions with different meanings. Just an intreaguing point.
 

I never said a Christian loses their salvation. In fact, I posted that I believed a person could NOT lose it. That you can not be plucked away. If they are truly saved. I really am curious as to why you would say, that it is a point that can't be proved. To me, scripture is what it is. I do not go looking for ways to ease around it or say It is not really clear. As far as the guy sleeping with his fathers wife in Corinth, I believe that you have stepped out there assuming this guy was saved in the first place. Or whether he was ever saved in the end. Paul was telling them not to associate with sexually immoral people. Not to even eat with them. The verse you are talking about is here: 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 NKJ

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

You can't say that this guy was saved. It doesn't say that. If you read the whole story and what Paul was saying, it is obvious that he is "sexually immoral" and should be judged. Here is the entrity of 1 Corinthians 5
NKJ (New King James)

Immorality Defiles the Church
 1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged
   
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

I was using NIV translation. But for the response here, I used NKJ. I think you are using New King James (NKJ).

The words may be slightly different or moved around, but the meaning is the same.  Saying that they have 2 different meanings is a little over doing it. In the NIV translation, the translators simply portrayed the words with a clear meaning that a person who has Christ will not continue to live in sin. In the NKJ translation you provided, it actually says that if you are born of God, you CAN'T sin.

So, what do you hold to? Are you saying that you do not believe scripture is accurate? Or that we are not bound by the same scriptures for some reason or that they do not apply to us? In the verse you just used, it says you can't know Him and sin.. So, which is is? You can or can't? Do we dismiss this scripture all together?


By the way, try going to biblegateway.com. They have many translations. According to them and others, the NASB (New American Standard Bible) is considered the best translation to the original scriptures.. Here is a link. And yes, I have a NASB of my own as well as NIV, NKJ.
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=49
 

I have to disagree with you again here Mac. Paul delivered this believer to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved. Eventually in 2 Cor 2:6/8 we read that Paul asked them now to forgive him and comfort him less he be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. They were now to confirm their love to him. Delivering him to Satan was redemptive not judgment.

With regard to 1 John 3:9 none of my versions say what yours say. Surely the original greek is the test? There are different meanings in my opinion. To say that one cannot sin is different to saying one cannot habitually sin.

Okay you were saying that someone cannot lose their salvation, but the point you are making is saying that people who have committed gross sin were not saved. I wish that was true but I don't think it is true. It may or may not be true in individual situations. It's not proved either way in my view. Sometimes strongholds are still there from pre-christian days that need to be broken. Because someone does porn doesn't prove they are not saved. It shows that they have a big probem and need help. One who is following christ will seek that help. I don't think it is so cut and dried as you portray Mac. I do see your point but I don't think it is the case in every situation.

Raymond

That's ok. We will have to agree to disagree. Although I do not  understand what you mean by all the "versions" you have do not say what I posted.. Well, I used the NIV (New International Version) and the NKJ (New King James). I have read several translations and even though there may be different wording used in these verses, they all mean the same.. What translation are you using?

I see in that scripture that Paul told them to turn over this guy (to satan) for what he had done and that by doing that, he ***MAY*** be saved. That is what it says.

You and I may not agree, and I know you say I haven't proved my point, however, I have provided scripture for my proof. You refute that with something about "versions". I do not know what version you are reading, but I hope you are right. For the sake of all of the people who believe they can live a life of sin and be ok in the eyes of the Lord. Scripture says you can't.. You say you can. I will stick with the totality of the scriptures and you can believe whatever it is you believe..

I know people sin. I sin. But to live in sin is another matter.

I will ask this, do you struggle with this (pornography) or another type of "gross" sin in your life daily? Have you been struggling with something?

Peace...

No I haven't been struggling with porn Mac. Not any more than the average christian person because of it being around. Where I go into the factory from the office there are nudes up everywhere. There seems to be a flood of it in the last ten years.

It makes me think of a prophecy given by David Wilkerson (Cross & the Switchblade) where he predicted 30 year ago of  pornography to come. He believed it was typified in revelation where the dragon opened his mouth and a flood came out to try and drown the woman who was bearing a man child (christ?). In other words trying to drown the church. Pornography is a massive problem in our day and has actually penetrated the church in someplaces believe it or not. Chosenone goes to a place where christians are getting help with this problem as it can seriously affect marriage.

The versions I refer to only affect 1 John 3:9. Your rendering of this verse does not agree with any of the versions I have even the NKJ. It is of particular interest to me at the present time and is not really relevant to the discussion. There are other verses that speak of the new man the way he cannot sin etc. I think it must refer to our spirits which are born again as opposed to our souls which are in process of changing as we draw down what God has done in our spirits. Have we not been crucified with christ and ressurected with Him. I don't see that in our soul are yet but believe it is true in our spirit. We'd better not get into a discussion about this as we will be way off topic.

Yes the man was delivered to Satan so that his spirit could be, may be, might be saved. That was the purpose of it. It seemed to have worked as I pointed out in my last post.

My current husband's name is Garry. Is that what you mean by this?

I don't know Becki unless your husband is a moderator on this site. On the forum about Marriage and Sex in the Bible we were continually told to keep on topic folks where we strayed a little bit on to the bible. I think it was all related personally but the thread was shut down eventually because it was off topic due to the conversations about spirits that can affect ungodly sex? We ended up quoting passages that show Jesus throwing out spirits just to prove there are spirits.

This thread has strayed a little as it happens as it is supposed to be about pornography being grounds for divorce or not. But hey this is a forum. One can stray but another can bring it back. Sometimes the diversions are very relevant I think. 

Oh, no, it is just a strange coincidence that my husband's name is Garry (with 2 "r's"). I am new here, so thank you for the clarification.  ::smile::

Thats okay then Becki.

I agree with you that porn is a form of adultery. I always call it mental adultery.

Sahg I would say you had grounds for divorce if your husband is not even repentant. This is sex outside marriage and it certainly does affect the marriage bed as you have found out. The marriage has been defiled in my view. There is a difference between someone struggling and someone brazenly doing it with no intention of repenting.

 

I agree totally. I am sure that many wives would be prepared to support their husbands if they were prepared to stop looking at porn and get help, but if he isn't prepared to stop or get any help or even recognise how harmful and damaging it is, then to leave him seems the  only option in my opinion.
Whatever a few man may say it isn't something that doesn't matter, It must feel just as if he is committing adultery for real, except on porn it is with hundreds of women. For the women it must be soul destroying, demeaning, incredibly damaging and very harmful.
Wives need to feel as if they are their husbands 'one and only' and porn sends the message that you aren't 'good enough' 'pretty enough' 'sexy enough' etc. The man may say that it is nothing to do with them, but what they are doing says that it is.

I know that personally I couldn't stay with a man who repeatedly looked at porn. I know it would destroy me and I would have to get out for my own sanity.

I agree with everything you say. I believe these images will be in his head even when he has IC with his wife, so in affect she is sharing in a kind of orgy without realising it and he will seem distant while still doing it. It totally robs the marriage of the intimacy that should be there. One has to look at it spiritually as well as physically.

That sex is so important probably does not need to be stressed but we know that sexual unfaithfulness was the only grounds that Jesus allowed for divorce. That and scriptures about fornication shows how important sex is. We know who tries to rob the celebration that sex should be in a marriage.

 

I agree. How hurtful and terrible it must be for wife to have sex with her husband knowing that he is probably imagining that she is someone else in his head. Now if THAT isnt unfaithfullness I dont know what is. it must make her feel so useless and dirty.

You are such a hypocrite.  You would leave your husband for looking at porn but a man can not leave his wife for not satisfying him sexually.  If he is looking at porn its both of your problem not just the husbands, it says that something is missing in the marriage otherwise he would not be viewing it.  Like I said all this jibber jabber is not going to save a marriage all it will do is destroy relationships and break down the chruch.

 To say that a husband is looking at porn becuase something is missing is simply not true. many men look at porn and are addicted to porn long before they marry. if you read enough forums you will see that many husbands who are having a full sex lfe still look at porn regardless. You are,as usual, wanting to justify looking at porn whch is extreemly serious hurtful and damaging.
You need to stop justifying sin, it wont get you anywhere with God .
 
I would never leave my husband becauase I would never marry a man who didnt have high moral standards.
His sex life in his first marriage was a big dissapointment to him (and he never wanted or expected the things that you do), but he never looked at porn and was never unfaithful to his wfe emotionally or physically in 23 years regardless of this. He put his promise to his wife and his obedience to God above this.  If My husband for whatever reason could never have sex again that is no reason for me to leave him, look at porn or sleep with someone else. I have promised tp put him  first for better or worse.

 .I have never said that anyone should withhold normal sex except with agreement, I have never done that with my husband and I never would but that doesnt mean that anyone else should be pressured to do anal sex or even oral sex if they feel it is against their conscience or their sense of what is to them is right.
Any man who was obsessed with oral or anal sex in preference to normal intercourse so much so that it destroys their marriage and comes before God and other people has deep problems and need ministry.

Why do we keep ending up here?

Rpearso you are justifying porn because your wife didn't like os? Porn is never justified in any situation. Even before one is married, when you are not having sex, you are responsible to stay pure. One could say it's okay for me to look at porn because I haven't got a wife perhaps?

Your reasonings are incorrect. Nothing justifies mental adultery. If one slips into it because the wife rejects sex there may be mitigating circumstances but it is never never justified. It is totally wrong.

Using your logic, a person can justify stealing something because they do not have it. Really, it is easy to justify just about any type of sin, using your mind set.
"It's not my fault I did _____ (fill in blank), you made me do it because you wouldn't ______ (fill in the blank)."

You and you alone are responsible for your sin. You will stand in judgement for your actions. Not your wife. Not your friend. Just you.

At first I really felt pity for you.. But now, after a lot of people have tried to tell you the truth and be honest with you, I believe that you just do not want to know the truth.

How old are you? And I am serious about that. You act just like my teenage sons. Nothing is ever their fault. Blaming everyone for their problems and mistakes.

"I'm late because my friend XXX made me late".
"I really wasn't speeding Dad. The cop just hates me."
"Everybody else does it."
"It's the teachers fault. I wouldn't have got in trouble in she didn't single me out."

And my favorite after a bad test grade.....
"Man Dad, nothing we were told to study was on that test. Everybody failed it."

That is what you sound like when you try to lay blame everywhere but where it belongs. In practical terms and conditions, no one can make you do anything against your will. Until you man up and accept responsibility for your own actions, your life will be controlled by your vices. You may not be doing them right now, but if you stop getting what you want, you will do it again and again.

I hope you grow up and see that we are only trying to help you.

So you think viewing porn is sexually immoral enough for divorce but withholding sexual acts for an entire marriage is not sexually immoral enough.  You dont see the hypocracy there?  You dont see the feminsm taking root, its ok for the woman to behave poorly in the marriage and the man has to take it but as soon as the man is doing something the woman does not like she is out the door.  Do you see how this makes your point of view almost laughable, I agree kids sometimes make up excuses but they are not stupid and if they see you displaying such hypocracy they will loose all respect for you.

Yes, viewing porn is immoral. And no, I never said that a wife withholding NORMAL sexual relations from her husband is acceptable. Clearly it isn't. And no one here has said other wise.

The issue here remains the same. You feel like you should be able to force your sexual desires on your wife. The word of interest is "force". In a marriage that is built around Christ, there is love. There is respect. There is gentleness. There is patience... There is kindness... You are not showing these attributes at all. Your wife separated from you because of your desires. You pestered her daily for something she was no longer comfortable with. If you loved her the way you should, you would try and understand her reasoning for the change. You should respect that. She is your wife. Not your sex toy. She felt degraded. She felt like she couldn't do those things anymore. Why? Only you and her know. But she separated from you. Which IS biblical.



The only hypocrisy I see is you saying you love the Lord, but you treated your wife like a tool. An object given to you for your absolute pleasure. Sorry, not the way it is supposed to be. And for the record, you will get nowhere forcing a woman into things. You may for a short while, but she will lose all respect for you.. When that is gone, so is desire.

There is no feminism in this. Your wife, who you vowed to love and cherish, felt uncomfortable doing these acts for whatever reason. Instead of you being a loving, caring husband, you turned on her. You belittled and berated her daily because of it. And she separated from you.

What I see is a sexual deviant who is a control freak. If you really want to know. You also show several traits of a narcissist.


No, I don't see that. I lead by example. One thing is for sure... My children will never be able to say, "Man, Dad treated mom like a piece of meat." And if my children lose respect for me, it will only be temporary. Because it will be their childish views making them feel that way. When they grow up, they will see. I am trying to raise MEN. Not guys who take advantage of people and treat them with disdain. People are not here for your pleasure. That includes your wife.

 It is sexually immoral for a man OR a women to look at porn and for a man OR a women to have sex with anyone that they arent married to. Both are unfaithfullness whether it be a man or a women who does this.
if one spouse withholds sexual intercourse than that is wrong, whether it be a man or a women. No one has denied that. It isnt being unfaitfhul to their spouse. It is being selfish. In your case your wife wasnt withholding sexual intercourse from you, only what YOU needed to have. If intercourse isnt enough for you then that is sad, but that is your problem. If you really cant live without AS or OS then that is something that you need to deal with, but living in sin wont help.

'Having' to have a women in your life all the time who will give you these things despite the fact that you are sinning is totally out of balance. Marrying a non Christian just so that your sexual needs are met, means that  you are going the wrong way. Cant you see that these things are way out of balance in your life?   Cant you see that it is causing you to sin and go agaisnt many of Gods warnings?

Its still just your opinion, if your spouse identified something in your marriage you were not doing that could lead to the breakdown of the marriage and an eventual divorce and you just said eh I dont want to so im not going to you share responsibility in the break down of your marriage just because your opinion is that withholding of sex only applies to intercourse does not mean it does not apply to all other sex acts as the term do not deny one and other sexually is all inclusive it does not exclude the sex acts that the wife or husband are allowed to deny thus negating the need for alternate  more specific scripture to be provided to "prove" that withholding of oral sex specificly is wrong.  Just because you opinion of 1 cor 7 is intercourse only does not mean thats what it says and if it something your husband needs in the marraige or risk sacraficing the marriage to a divorce dont you think its worth doing?  Would you be ok with your husband not talking to you, hugging you or kissing you anymore or would you just pull more of the same "love your wife as christ loved the church" card but respecting and taking care of your husband is optional.  Your logic is severly flawed and you cant even debate me on this issue head on with out skirting around it.

Would you continue to respect your husband and stay with him if he no longer loved you? Assuming there was no porn or affairs.  You seem to have a difficult time answering this question directly without skirting around it in some fassion.

You just don't get it. How can you compare what you were/are doing/asking with your wife and a husband not hugging his wife? Man, if you really believe that, you are way off of center. I am not trying to insult you, but truth is truth.

You say people are skirting issues or not answering them. Everyone has answered your questions. You have just chosen to ignore the answers. Your post read like a prerecorded novel.. "That's your opinion."  "That's your interpretation.." blah, blah, blah...

Look, there is no way on this green earth you can justify your actions through scripture. None. You keep saying that 1 Cor. 7 is your scripture. But if you look at ALL of the scriptures (including 1 Cor 7) on how a husband should treat his wife, you are just plain wrong. And that is not my opinion. That is a fact.

Take away the argument about the husband and wife thing for a minute. You continue to post that her actions lead you to do what you do. i.e.. porn, divorce, adultery, sexual immorality, etc... How do you reconcile that with what God has told US (meaning me and you as a Christian and husband) to do as far as our behavior towards one another? You are to do all things as you would unto the Lord. Her behavior shouldn't and can't control your behavior.

As a Christian, you should not be unequally yoked? Are you equally yoked at this time in your life?

If you remove your wife from your forward sight, what do you see? You should see the Lord. You should conduct yourself and do all things for HIM not yourself. I really do not believe you have come to grips yet with dying to yourself. It "ain't" about you. Bad English. Good lesson.

You are good as long as you are getting your way. You're chasing your own tail so to speak. Until you learn that a marriage is more about the unit as it is about you, you will never get it. Until you learn that being a Christian is about being submissive to the Lord and not living your life for yourself, you will never get it.

You have said you know you have things to work on.. Start with your heart. Start with your personal relationship with your Lord and Savior. You claim to know Him. But you do not show the attributes of Him.

I wish you well.

 

I would stay with my husband if he no longer loved me becuase he is a good man who would still be obedient to God and show love whether he felt it or not.

If my husband put constant pressure on me to do something that I had already told him was something that made me feel REALLY uncomfortable and that I hated doing, I would have no respect for him at all. although I would still try with Gods help to show him respect..If he threatened me with divorce unnless I did what he said, I would know that I had married the wrong man. To threaten anyone with divorce just becusase they wont do a particular thing is very controlling, manipulative and completely wrong.There is no Biblical reason to divorce someone just becuase you cant get your own way(although many people do of course).

  However he wouldnt put pressure on me if he knew how I felt and I wouldnt put pressure on him to do anything that I wanted to do if he felt really unhappy about it becuase I care more about him than that (as he does me).

A lot of women won't do OS or receive AS Rpearso. I think there are good reasons around not to do that. Personally I would not say that IC is all there is and the only legitimate thing you can do, but we are given freewill not to do certain acts. Couples have to adapt to each other and work it out between them, but when force and domination come into it, the relationship takes a turn. It shows that you are not respecting her freewill. As has been mentioned control is coming in where it means that one is not allowed to feel or act the way they want. Even if they do the wrong thing one cannot control another person. Relationship does not thrive in that scenario. I'm quite sure she would have done her best with you, but you seem to have been immovable and had written in stone that AS & OS were compulsory.

If you don't feed the troll, eventually it will leave.  =-)

All im saying Mac is the more stumbling blocks you throw out for your spouse the higher the odds of the relationship failing.  If you are denying your spouse sexually and then piling financial issues, kid issues etc on top of that person you are eventually going to get a negitive reaction and/or a nervous break down.  You seem to have in your mind that being a christian is like having a magic rabbits foot, we are still human and given enough stress we will crack, prayer and faith is not a substitute for common sense.

That is very noble that you would stay with your husband if he stopped talking to you, hugging you and kissing you as long as he did not look at porn or have an affair.  What if hugging and kissing made him uncomfortable would you be ok with that.

If you go down this path then respect of free will has to go both ways.

Only physical adultery is grounds for divorce...  Having a spouse who looks at porn is not.  It's sin.. but not sin unto divorce.  The only sin that qualifies divorce is ACTUAL sex with someone outside the marriage.  Jesus did not qualify "lusting of the heart" as a qualifier or divorce.  

If you look at the Ten Commandments and the LAW that was set forth by God... it took "Action" to violate the Law.  Except for coveting...  every single one of the Ten Commandments take action to break.  Looking at porn is wrong, it is NOT adultery or mental adultery.  Jesus NEVER said it was and it isn't.

Counseling and seeking to help the offender to find repentance and deliverance is the course...  But, it takes SEXUAL completion with another human to bring about the sin that qualifies divorce.  

 I said not loving me and not not talking to me. I would never marry a man unless he had very high moral standards and was very godly. His first wife left him very dissappointed sexually but he still tried his very best to be a good husband and to treat her well and with respect.As far as he was concerned he had made a promise to her and God to stay with her for better and for worse. He would never have divorced her for any reason, but fortunately for him she divorced him anyway.
Kissing and cuddling is affection and not sex.It is not something that would go against someones moral conscience or what God tells them is wrong or right.
I still think that somethng may have happened in the past that has led to you being out of balance with this whole thing and that you need deep prayer and ministry.  

 The word that Jesus uses as the allowance for divorce is 'pornea'. This is used at other places in the bible to describe other types of sexual immorality.The word means 'sexual immorality'. if Jesus had meant adultery only he would have used a different word.

What happens if one spouse has reapeated sexual contact with another person that just stops short of actual intercourse? Say oral sex or heavy petting?What if a spouse keeps sexually molesting another women or children? These things are surely sexual immorality even though actual intercourse isnt committed.
 . I also feel that repeated use of porn that isnt repented of is also sexual immorality, but that is my opinion as porn such as it is today was not around when the Bible was written, but it does depend on what we call sexual immorality.

 

what do you mean by 'kid' issues? if you marry someone you take on their children as your own. that is part of the deal. Children are part of the family. if you dont want 'kid issues' then you shoulnt have married someone who had them or who wants them. Also remember we can do ALL things through Christ  who gives us strength. Many of us here have had enormous financial issues and other issues in the past ,that is no reason for a divorce.

Kissing and cuddling are not sex, but they are something that could make someone uncomfortable or feel bad.  Something does not have to be sexual to make someone uncomfortable.

I dont know how you are able to totally miss my points or what but when I refered to kid issues it was in a laundry list of other things, when someone is sexually frustrated they are usually not able to deal with day to day issues that come up or dont care and when the spouse nags them insesently about it, it creates additional rifts in the marriage.  Also if a spouse is sexually frustrated the last thing they want to do is cuddle and kiss the person that is frustrating them.  If this situation goes on long enough and divorce is not an option, a marriage could reach a point where one spouse is just waiting for the other spouse to die, as death breaks the bonds of the marriage.

yes but you have never said that your wife wouldnt have sex with you, only os and as,  therefore you had no reason to be sexually frustrated.

In your opinion, in some cases men and women can not reach orgasm from intercouse.  Also just because you say "therefore" does not mean that the subsequent statement is true lol.  How can you persume to tell other people what frustrates them, if it frustrates them it frustrates them regardless if you think its valid or not and a frustrated person is not going to be a happy person to be around.

 I would think it s quite rare for a man not be able to reach orgasm through intercourse.

Thats your opinion again, if you cant take the information that people give you and instead invent facts that do not exist you will never really ever address issues.  There are men and women who can not orgasm from intercourse alone, you should google it.  What if the woman can only orgasm from oral but she does not want to recipicate, that is quite the conumdrum isent it.

 rppearso all the things that you say are based on your story or opinion. You assume that all men are like you. You say that all  Christian women are prudes. You imply that all men want oral or anal sex. Most Christian men do not have sex outside marriage. Most Christisn do not marry a non Christian. A women is not a prude for not wanting certain sexual acts.

Who threw out the stumbling blocks? Your wife? Read this very slowly....

"You are in charge of you. No one can make you sin... You have that choice to make... You decide to sin... You decide to not follow through on commitment... You create your own stumbling blocks.. "

Jesus had many stumbling blocks placed in front of Him. He just stepped over them. And before you say, "I am just human"... So was Jesus. He was as human as you and me.

The problem with you is, you. Everything you post is me, me, me.... You can't and won't do it on your own. Without Christ, it is not possible. But with Christ, anything is possible.. Wow. I believe that is even in the bible.

No, I don't have a rabbits foot but I do have the Son of the Living God as my Lord and Savior. I will take that over a rabbits foot. Through Him anything is possible. You have placed God in a box my friend. You have not learned what it will take to win this battle or conquer your struggles. The answer is, die to yourself and live for the Lord. Sell completely out for the Lord.

I have been through all these things you mentioned. Without the Lord, I went bankrupt and got divorced.

With the Lord though, I have been successful in my financial life (because of the Lord) and never been happier being married. If you would let go and allow the Lord to live through you, your life would be better. You were bought with a price. Jesus wants more for His money than you are giving Him.

You insinuate that your life or marriage is just to complicated or big for Him to handle. Hogwash. You are just to selfish to turn it loose.

I do not know how old you are, but if I had to guess, I would say late teens to early twenties.. Am I right? If not, does it not bother you that it appears that way?

The Lord can fix your issues. But the problem is, do your desires fit within the Christian life? I don't know.......

Not so Rpearso. You allow her freewill and she allows you freewill, but if your freewill goes against her freewill it is another ball game. You cannot force it. That is basic in any right relationship. You cannot control another person. You can suggest, encourage but you cannot control them. You have put the whole marriage on hold because you did not get your way and wanted to force things on her. This problem remains in you Rpearso and it will come up time and again in your relationships. Have you ever thought to yourself you may be wrong in some things? We are all wrong in some things.

Sorry to interrupt.

i had asked my husband to seek council for his girl watching problem,  which he said was because he didn't get enough sex from me, so the more sex i gave him the more he wanted and the more he checked out girls, he was never satisfied, i wanted to support him but he didn't think he had a problem, he blamed me for being a prude. i had believed him when he said he didn't look at porn, but now the truth has been revealed and explaines why i was emotionally broken and made me feel so worthless dirty and ashamed, never pretty enough because he was always looking at pretty young girls, and porn  and always said it has nothing to do with me.  i nearly lost my mind. i believe sexual addiction and porn addiction is real, and go handin hand, i think the church should really address the issue and how damaging it is to a wife and marriage.but every pastor i have heard preach will just mention that porn is sin, end of message. i am living proof of what it can do to a person. i really wanted my husband to get help, but he still thinks i'm the one with the problem.

 sahg
if he wont admit to his sin then there is little that you can do. people who sin often blame others and deny responsibility. If he thinks nothing is wrong then he is blind. His years of looking at porn have clearly damaged his idea of what a marriage should be. This is one big danger of porn users that it makes them think of women as sex objects whose one purpose is to satisfy their lusts
if he carries on looking at porn and staring at other women he is acting very badly, hurting and disrespecting you and will probably loose you. Do you know yet if he actually committing adultery?
Don't allow him to put the blame on you as he has been doing. if he claims that the lack of sex was making him like that and then when you had more sex why did it get worse? The trouble with being addicted to porn and other things is that the lust is never satisfied. The person wants more and more,and often wants more and more deviant types of porn as well from what studies have shown..

have you though of going to your pastor or an older women that you can trust in your church and speaking to her about it?. You cannot go on like this and something needs to be done.He needs to be made to take responsibility for what he is doing and shown that he also needs to stop or he will loose everything.  If he is also being unfaithful then you are allowed to divorce him anyway.

Typical behavior from an addict. They complain about not getting enough of _______ (fill in blank). But the more they get, the more they want. "Chasing the original high." which will never come. I really believe that if a man honestly knew that the interesting box he was opening, Pandora's box, was going to lead him were it can, they would stay away from it.

A person gets addicted trying to achieve the high they had the first time they used it. Problem is, the body becomes "desensitised" to it with each passing "hit". So, the only thing that works is doing more and more each time. Then eventually, an overdose is in the works.

This same cycle works for the sex or porn addict. The more they get, the more they want. They are chasing a high (porn or deviant sex) they can't get from a normal sex life or relationship. So, they try to get their fix with more porn, becoming more and more filthy with each passing hit. It isn't nasty enough or perverted enough. In the end, they begin treating the ones that  love them like prostitutes. They look at people as objects. Their property. "How dare they not conform to my wishes..." "See what you made me do?"

Porn is not real. The women and men in them are as fake as the acting. This is what normal people try to compete with. They just can't. We can't. Normal people can't. That is the problem.

For anyone who would think that porn and that behavior is normal, they have problems.


I am so sorry you have been treated this way. It isn't right. And don't let anyone tell you it is. You do not deserve to be treated this way. And you certainly do not deserve to be degraded and humiliated for his sake.

And yes, they can go hand in hand.



I agree. The church has avoided the topic of sex for the most part. It's like it's taboo to talk about it. But I think that it is vitally important to the church to have someone, who is not stiff necked, within the church deal with couples who have issues.

The term stiff necked may bother some, but let's face it... There are those within the church that believe sex should be for procreating only. There are those that think it is nasty. There are those that think any sexual postion besides straight up missionary sex style, is a sin. The list goes on and on. That is what I mean by stiff necked. It doesn't need to be a 75 year old who lives without sex either. They need to be relevent to the topic at hand.

Sex within the marriage bed is Godly. The marriage bed is undefiled. There is no reason whatsoever for the church to react to sex the way they have. Sex is an important part of marriage and it should be treated as such.

You are right Sahg this is much more serious than just a sin. As you have found out it goes to the heart of the marriage and bedroom intimacy. You will have found out also that the intimacy is missing because of the porn. The sexual drive is diverted to these women in his mind and it's like a breach has been made.

I always think of Proverbs 5:15 in these situations where it says "Drink water from your own cistern and running water from your own well. Why should your fountains be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the street? Let them be only your own and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of your youth. As a loving deer and a graceful doe, let her breasts satify you at all times and always be intoxicated with her love"

If we have intimacy in marriage there isn't room for anyone else in that intimacy including porn which I think is far more serious than most imagine.

He has to really want deliverance from this Sahg as it will be a battle. If he doesn't take it seriously as it appears, it could get worse as Mac has explained. Far from getting more sex it kills the legitimate sex one already has and robs it from the relationship that should be there. As Chosenone has explained you must keep your self esteem as it is not a rejection of you rather a giving in to lust which most men have a battle with at sometime or other

mac and blondie. I think you have both put some excellent and truthful points here

Im not sure where you keep getting "forced" and "against ones will", I simply said if the wife has her own free will in the marriage then so does the husband, if he does not want to hug or kiss or cuddle with his wife or come home after work (maybe he wants to play cards with his buddies every night) then that should be ok right.  Or maybe he wants to take the money for the new dishwasher and buy parts for his race car, that should also be ok right.

amos states we are not suppost to hang around people who cause us to stumble, what if that is your own wife.  Jesus was God we are not, all of us will stumble given enough stumbling blocks so why continue to allow them to be place in front of us.  Also its not just about not sinning its about having a full life at the same time, what good is it if your own marriage has you so depressed you are simply waiting for your spouse to die.

Fullness is found in Jesus Christ, not your wife. You will never have a full life until you give your life to God. Not placing your trust in God ruined your marriage, is presently causing you to live a sinful life, and your next marriage will be just as miserable.

You need some time away from sex so you can spend some time with God. Maybe then you will be able to understand Him clearly.

When we marry we make a covenant before God. if our spouse is unfaithful we are allowed to divorce. if they haven't then we can separate if we really have to but it seems that we aren't to  divorce or remarry for other reasons.
No where does the Bible say that we can give up or stop trying for reasons other that sexual immorality. if we are only waiting for our spouse to die then it is up to us to make that marriage better, put our spouse first and stop concentrating on what we want all the time.There are so many things that we can do, there are so many ways that God wants to help us to improve things but it takes selflessness and compromise.  My husband wasn't happy with his ex. She was bossy, controlling aan manipulative, but he never ever considered divorcing her. He had made a promise and he was going to keep it. The thought of leaving her never entered his head as he is someone who always tries to keep his word.
Do we keep our promises or not,even when the going gets tough? that is up to us.

Yes but death also gets you out of the marriage as well so waiting for your spouse to die is valid.  There is only so well a vehical will perform with out oil or gas then after that its just a waiting game for gas and oil what a miserable way that the chruch would have you live thats why people are turned off by it and then you use scare tactics to keep people in such situations (like where you go when you die).  I was preared in my own mind to wait for my wife to die but she left so it released me from the marriage.

Im not sure where you keep getting "forced" and "against ones will", I simply said if the wife has her own free will in the marriage then so does the husband, if he does not want to hug or kiss or cuddle with his wife or come home after work (maybe he wants to play cards with his buddies every night) then that should be ok right.  Or maybe he wants to take the money for the new dishwasher and buy parts for his race car, that should also be ok right.

Still no answer huh, I am betting I will not get an answer to this.

Leave our forums butcher. You are a disgrace to the Christian name and spew nothing by poison on these forums. Your callous disregard for God & humanity comes from none other than satan himself. You are not welcome here.

That is your opinion, and this is a result of you dodging question after question, I will not concede to your line of thinking unless you can provide practical common sense answers.  I hope you are not like this with people in chruch, I hope you offer more realistic advice.

If you seek practical "common sense" answers outside of the Word of God, I have nothing to share with you.

Oral sex and heavy petting (mutual masterbation) is sexual/physical adultery...   While you may feel that repeated use of porn is sexual immoralty... its not grounds for divorce,  that is not biblical.   It's not about what we think or feel. It's about what God said.   That is the bottom line...  the church has been injecting what they think into what God said way too much.

Wives need to realize that porn is not adultery and seek to find ways to help their husband's to deliverance, rather than to seek ways to call it the sin that qualifies divorce.  Sexual sins are spoken to as sins against your own body... but only the sin of "being with another person"  is what Jesus was speaking.  Context is a good idea. 

 

Firstly your wife leaving doesnt not release you from the marriage (did she divorce you or you her?) Secondly to state that you are waiting for your wife, who you promised to love and cherish, to die is one of the most selfish and cruel things I have ever heard.  is this the way that a Christian should be thinking or talking?
As for people being turned off the church , that is simply not true. My church for example is growing all the time with new members, as are many churches here.. Also telling people where they will go after death is valid. The Bible is clear about that.

 What would you suggest to a woman whose husband has used porn for years, wont stop, and wont agree that he needs to stop and wont get help?

Why does every thread have to turn into some big rppearso argument...   You all feed this... you sit and argue with him day in and day out, every thread in marriage is derailed so the focus can be on this personal vendetta going on.  The OP doesn't get any help...  

Sheesh... I avoid this forum lately...  

There is scriptural support that death dissolves the marriage and that waiting for your spouse to die is waiting "until death do you part"

I've never seen a scripture that implied you are to wait with anticipation... 

I was asking you kensington and not him. I wondered what your advise would be to a women for whom the above senario in my last post applied.

I would probably advise her to ask God what to do and maybe to seperate for a season to see if that will stop it. If it doesnt then what is the next step?I cant agree that a woman should have to stay with a man who is behaving so appallingly and refuses to stop. I do see it as sexual immorality otherwise what else is it? it is certainly sexual and it is certainly immoral, and for the wife it certainly feels as if she is being cheated on.. (which she is in a sense)
.
 Those of us who are trying to get though to him are also trying to stop him from derailing every topic and warning those for who he gives a very unhelpful answer not to take any notice, maybe if more pople reported those unhelpful posts he would have to stop causing others confusion when they have come for help.

Great point.   I guess context does have some merit after all!  

I hope my wife is not waiting in anticipation for me to push up daisies, feed the worms, return to the elements, take up permanent 6 foot deep residence, bite the dust, take the ultimate horizontal position, hold my breath for an eternity, wear my final suit, (I really wish I could think of some more really good ones!  Perhaps you all will share some favorites!)

The argument between you all has gone on for pages and pages and pages Chosenone...  

It's crazy...  YOU contribute to the derail...  every time.  You sit here and answer him post for post...   That is not helping.  

 I dont think that scripture means that we should be 'wanting' them to die. Yes if a spouse dies that does dissolve the marriage, but How awful for anyone to think that their husband or wife is wanting them to die.What a horrible thing that is for someone who promised that they would love us and be faithful to us and be there for us in sickness and health for better for worse. if I was wanting my spouse to die I would have some serious repenting and praying to do.

  OK so should he be allowed to get away with it and write exactly what he likes and no one can ever challenge him?It is Biblical to challenge anyone who is behaving in a bad way.  Ignoring people often doesnt help.You have your ways of dealing with things and others have theirs.

You are not a moderator...  or admin,  You sit on him as though this is YOUR site, you built it, you worked to make it what it is... and it's up to you who can post what.  Sorry... I don't get that.   

But...   I see what I see.   It's crazy... it's in every marriage thread.. and you are just as much a part of it as he is.   Sincere threads are being destroyed and no one helped and all that matters to you is that you challenge him...  like that is the mission. 

I'm out...

None of this would happen if you did not twist my words, I did not say hoping for them to die or wishing ill upon them, I simply said waiting for death to come to one of you to disolve the marriage none of us are immortal on this earth so we will eventually die, you can still uphold your responsibilities while waiting for death.  Then at least that way you will be within Gods will when you die, kind of like if you died as a very small child or as an infinant what a blessing that would be, all these discussions about what is sin and what is allowed and what is not allowed and our struggles would be moot.

 I get the impression that you and your wife are fairly young so you could have been waiting for a long time. Instead of doing this you needed to compromise, put her first and do all that you could to make the marriage a better one rather than  giving up and waiting for  her death. Surely a better way that just waiting for one of you to die (remember that you could easily have died first anyway)

From you. You said that if she doesn't do what you want, you can divorce her. In other words, force her or divorce. From all indications, you tried to force your will on her and she separated from you.

You have repeatedly said that you have a right to "move on" because she wouldn't give you the type of sex you wanted anymore. i.e.. Your way or no way.. i.e.. Force your wants and desires (will) on her until she cedes ground. Which she didn't.


Look, it is different. Your wife did not withhold the basic things of intimacy. Hugs, kisses, etc.. She didn't even withhold intercourse. She just didn't want to do certain things anymore for what ever reason. Does she really need a reason anyway? It should be this simple..

Husband- "Why don't you want to do _____ anymore?" (fill in the blank)
Wife-        " I really just feel bad doing that now. It makes me feel bad and icky..."
Husband- "Well, I am really sorry honey. I never intended for you to be mistreated or feel bad
                  about something like that. I love you. You are my wife and I would never want to  
                  make you do something you didn't want to."
Wife-         "Thank you honey. It's just that blah, blah, blah, etc....."

She explains it and it is over. What does it say to her when you are willing to divorce her over that? I'll tell you what.. It says this:
"You do not mean anything to me. I only want you for your body and what it can do for me. If I can't have what I want, I do not want you."

You should be ashamed.

 

Again, you are being childish and this is really irrelevant. If the two of you decide that it is ok to buy parts instead of the dw, great. Who knows, if you actually cared what someone else thinks, you may find that they agree with you at times. Or were at least willing to meet you half way.

When Jesus walked on this earth, he was just as man as you or I. He was beat, mutilated and hung on a cross. He felt pain and temptation. You need to read your bible some more. He was a man. The bible says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". HE WAS FLESH. Yes, he could have been treated differently but he wasn't.

Maybe for you it is about a full life, but to me, I will follow the Lord. That may mean if my wife died tomorrow, it may be His will that I remain celibate for the rest of my life and be of service to Him. That would be fullness. Having sex has nothing to do with being full or having a full life.

It isn't all about you.

She separated from you. You sought the divorce. She did what is right. You did what is wrong.

Yes but then at least I would have died doing the right thing, I am 28 and my ex was 40.  Like you said in a post before anything can happen you can get in a car wreck a plane crash etc also stress can dramaticly reduce your life span.  Also I believe you are older and as you know the time goes fast that coupled with the stress and having nothing to look forward to except death would make it go faster.  Also I study engineering and sceince and can spend endless hours just studying and reading and working out equations which is what I did for 2 years because I already knew the reality of my situation not to mention I am a BS chemcial engineer and do it for a living so I just did it 24/7 in addition to the hour or 2 of counseling each week, I did not really want any interaction with my ex, kissing and hugging and cuddling upset me and made my situation worse as she was the source of my frustration and she would not leave me alone and would nag continuously so at times I would pack up my books and bring them to my office and just stay at work becasue she would never respect my space and would alway appologize but would not stop doing it.

That is true, I could have continued to wait for one of us to die wheather separated or together as after her historectormy she did not really have a sex drive so it is unlikely she would have cheated on me.  What a life to live though, nope not for me your word do not have as much impact as the reality of that situation.

So basically you started ignoring your wife because she "was the source of my frustration".

What was she nagging you about?

So, you left the house because you couldn't get your way or because she wanted cuddling etc.. and you didn't want to give her that because she wouldn't do what you wanted? Right?

Brother, it isn't my word. It's Gods word.

As far as the hysterectomy, there are hormones to help with that. And believe it or not, they work. Helps with their sex drive and all. Wow. Can you believe that?

I really think you could be helped if you would open your ears a little. You are just not hearing it. You have been told by the Church, by us and other Christians you are wrong. But, you have chosen to stand up and say, "So what!" If you can't see that your actions are wrong, well we can't really help you. But I assure you, you are wrong.

I agree with the other poster. You need to take a break from sex and get to know God a little better. Or at least deeper. I would be happy to communicate with you via email or private messages here and help you do that. My goal is to help you grow as a Christian and maybe clear up some muddy water so to speak on your thoughts about scripture.

I would not want to come home because of the insesant nagging and she kept wanting me to do things that were uncomfortable for me.  The reason I stand here and say I dont care is because your advice is a double standard and you dont live my life, if you cant be consistant how can you expect people to take your advice.

I love the balance you keep Mac...   

What did she want from you?

My advice is not a double standard. I told a young lady the other day to be the WIFE that GOD told HER to be. Do not worry about the husband. Concentrate on you.

I have basically told you the same thing. You worry about you. Stop playing tit for tat with your wife. You be the Christian husband you were called to be. Let the Lord deal with the wife, if she needs to be dealt with.

I have been as consistant as I can be. At some point, you will see that YOU have to do what Christ has called YOU to do. You do not do what Christ called your WIFE to do. Nor do I, etc...

I replied to your pm. Read my response. If you still have questions regarding how I come to my belief, let me know.

Thank you. I think. Haha.. I hope you weren't being facetious. But if you were, I like it anyway.

:)
Mac

No.. I meant it.  You always have wisdom and balance to your advice posts.  Pray much?  ::whistle::

How are you getting on Sahg in your situation? This is your thread after all.

Kensington said
Oral sex and heavy petting (mutual masterbation) is sexual/physical adultery...   While you may feel that repeated use of porn is sexual immoralty... its not grounds for divorce,  that is not biblical.   It's not about what we think or feel. It's about what God said.   That is the bottom line...  the church has been injecting what they think into what God said way too much.

Wives need to realize that porn is not adultery and seek to find ways to help their husband's to deliverance, rather than to seek ways to call it the sin that qualifies divorce.  Sexual sins are spoken to as sins against your own body... but only the sin of "being with another person"  is what Jesus was speaking.  Context is a good idea. 

[/quote]

I agree that a wife should help her husband kick the habit but sometimes he blatantly carries on with it and thinks it is not wrong. It is a kind of adultery if your read Jesus words on looking at a woman with lust. I don't think anyone has said it is grounds for divorce but put it this way; I would never counsel a woman against leaving a husband who was blatantly carrying on in this way. No one has got the right to legalistically lay down the law one way or another. It is up to the woman concerned and how she feels.

This is a new probem on the level we have it. Apparently 90% or more of internet usage is porn. What is going on?

New answers are being worked out as things have changed.

I suppose everything hinges on the word pornea, the word used in Greek. Chosenone has given a good explanation of it I think. 

I agree Blondie and that figure you quoted of 90% is shocking. I had no idea that it was that high. Satan certainly having a good old time isn't he?Porn is one of his favourite weapons to destroy lives marriages and families.

yes sexual immorality can cover all sorts of things and as you say porn as we know it now is relatively new to the extent that we see it now. if a women came to me with a husband who was heavily into porn and who wouldn't stop or even admit that there was anything wrong I could never tell her that she had to stay indefinitely.Who am I to make anyone put up with that pain and degradation day after day?
 If it had got unbearable to her then I would suggest they she separate and give him an ultimatum to get help of the marriage is over.If after that he still wasn't prepared to put her before the porn then I wouldn't hesitate to advise her to  pray about whether she should divorce him. He has a choice , the ball is then in his court. Would God actually want one of his precious daughters to have to be degraded day after day and year after year?

I actually have a Christian friend who did divorce her non Christian husband who was into porn, and because he was looking at it when she was out and with his 2 and 4year old children running around in the same room, the judge said that he could only see them once a week with supervision. Sensible judge. She never hesitated and knew all along that God was behind her in what she did.

 

I agree with what you say Chosenone as I usually do it seems.

The 90% may be because porn consists of pictures and films which use a lot more space than text and just a few pictures as most websites use. However it is still pretty massive so I dread to think what is going on. Thank God for His guidance and provision on sexual matters.

thanks for asking, things are ok for now , he moved out and we are getting along better. he is being so nice to me. he still says he dosen't have a problem with porn any more, so he dosn't think he needs help. the first thing he got for his apartment was a computer. he still swears he did not commit adultry, but there was too much evedence, the dating pages, local girls in pornography offering casual sex, i just am sickened by all i have learned about him, why was he looking for local girls for porn and sex? he still dosen't know i was watching his activity on the computer so i know how much he has been lying to me. do you think i was wrong for spying on him? i was praying to know the truth about my husband because of the way he was treating me and everything just seemed to open up to me, i guess that is a whole other issue. he seems to be happy with his freedom, but not looking to divorce right away, but now i feel like a single married woman, lonley and trapped, and he has his privacy and freedom. i'm still in prayer about divorcing, i don't want to sin, i don't feel the same about my husband any more, and i worry that is sin. if i knew for sure he committed physical adultry, i would divorce, but i only have evedence. i don't want to sin against God. i still don't believe my husband is saved which i think is alot of our problem , and why he thinks there is nothing wrong with looking at girls, he seems to be drawn to teenagers and early 20's, girls that age are young enough  to be my daughters. he also has a drinking problem as well. he said he knows he does but he thinks he has it under control. i know i could forgive my husband if he did commit adultry, but i could never trust him or believe him again, how do you stay in a marriage without honesty, truthfulnes and respectful loving intamacy. i am struggling with my emotions and thoughts, i just don't want to go against God to satisfy myself. maby i'm not doing as well as i would like to think.

No I don't think that you were wrong in looking at what he had been doing. At least it enabled you to see the truth which was not what he had told you. Even if he wasn't physically being unfaithful, the fact that he was looking for girls to be unfaithful with was proof that it was his intention to do just that.
I think you are doing the right thing. if he wont get any help or have counselling then there is little that you can do. of course he is almost certainly looking at porn. Why would he stop just because he has moved out.? After all it is easier for him now isn't it.  If you are only wanting to divorce him for actually physically adultery than ask God for proof. A friend of mine did that and within a short time God gave her proof of his affair I am sure that God will provide this if it has happened.
 However I have always felt that you have quite enough reason to divorce him anyway if he refuses to change ,or to stop looking for other young girls who are young enough to be his daughter to have sex with , or to  stop looking at porn.
Have you said that you will keep trying if he is prepared to stop and work with you? Does he want your marriage to continue?

Please please, if you do divorce and in the future want to marry again, don't even think of being with a man who isn't a born again Christian and who doesn't have high moral standards.

Sahg I know you want to do the right thing. Breaking the sexual sanctity of a marriage is a terrible thing that cuts right into the intimacy you should have. People have committed adultery before, have repented and been forgiven by their spouses. However if that repentance is not there where is the marriage?

You do not have proof of physical adultery but you do have of mental adultery or a lusting after other women. The last thing we want here is a legalistic approach and a play on words.

My humble opinion here is that your husband has been unfaithful to you and does not seem to be showing any sign of getting right with you about that or regaining your trust.

Basically I cannot see any future in the marriage and I will not be the one who says you will have to stay married to him. It cannot work as it is and short of a miracle it is over. I  think it is being legalistic to get some proof of physical adultery. I think you have enough already. It seems to me, in his present frame of mind, that it will happen sooner or later anyway if it hasn't already.

Do what you have peace about doing before God and what He shows you by His spirit. I agree with Chosenone in what she has said. I don't think it was wrong of you either to find out the truth as these issues are so important and your instincts proved to be correct.

I hear in the states that pornography figures in 50% of divorces so your position is not unusual.

I hope you are hearing what we are saying. I am not saying you should or shouldn't get divorced, but if you do I will understand perfectly.

Raymond

i have been praying  for physical proof, but nothing yet, God is confirming my husband is not born again, and also how perverted my husband's thinking is, he still says he has no problem with porn, he said something to me yesterday that made my heart sink and want to throw up, just another confirmation of how porn effects him and what his actions did to me emotionally.  i don't think i can work on this marriage, if he were born again, then i believe there would be hope which brings me to 1 cornth 7:15,16. i am still struggling emotionally over all this.

i agree with what you said here, and my husband does not admit he is doing anything wrong so there is no repentance, he feels he dosen't have to prove anything to me and blames me for not trusting him, that it's my problem, not his. i no longer see a future in this marriage , and yes pornography is a big problem around here, there is a college 30 minutes from where i live that i heard offers a course in pornography, i'm not sure how true that is but in the world we live in and the liberated town the college is in i am not surprised. it makes me so angry. if they only cared how many marriages it destroys. i am still praying for direction through all this.

I walked 7 years in similar shoes to a man who professed to be a Christian. Can't tell much difference between yours and mine.

Pornography is an addicting drug. The day comes when images no longer provide the high, and flesh becomes the new drug of choice. So without an acknowledgment of a serious problem and a sincere desire and effort to make a real change, there is not much hope for a restored real marriage.

Broken trust is extremely difficult to repair and rebuild. Not impossible, but impossible without God as a marriage partner.

It would be interesting to hear from a wife who has struggled with pornography too.  Might shed a bit of understanding from 'the other side'.

My mother said women do not think of such things, or go number 2 in the restroom.

My goodness. Now, I have heard that before as well... Number 2 part anyway... rofl

Or how about: "My wife is addicted to Romance Novels"   Divorce the cheatin' ______!

pornea does not mean porn.  It means intercourse...it can be used to describe all types...if you all will forgive some of the words, here is the literal definition:

illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman;

As for the OP, no, looking at porn is not grounds for divorce, but saying that, it is a sin and can be quite destructive in any relationship.

Without knowing the full situation, I am afraid I can do little more than pray for you and your husband.

In Christ,
KP

k pappy what would you call it if a person did things of a sexual nature with another who they are not married to such as oral sex or fondling but stopped short of intercourse?Two woman, for example, cannot have intercourse in that way.Therefore lesbianism cannt be described as intercourse even though it definatetly is sexual immorality.
The word pornea I have heard described by two or three different teachers as meaning many different types of sexual immorlaity.The word pornography comes from that word. To me this would include sexual interaction with someone who we arent married to such as I have described above. (It could even include unrepentant and on going porn/masturbation use, but that is my opinion) .

I posted the literal definition.

That is not my opinion, that is not "what I heard."

That is what the word means...take it or leave it.

In Christ,
KP

 

So lesbianism isnt 'pornea' then as you previously said? So if somebodies wife leaves their husband for another woman that isnt grounds for divorce? If a ladies husband molests children is that grounds for divorce?if a spouse has oral sex with another person isnt that grounds for divorce.?
Sexual immorality (pornea)  is translated as different things in different translations but can include many different types of sexual immorality and not just sexual intercourse.These that I have heard teach on it (or have written about it in their books) included Billy Graham and derek prince so I guess they have some idea of what it means.Derek Prince spoke both hebrew and Greek and I do trust his knowledge.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?  Please stick to the facts and do not attribute things to me that I did not say.

I posted a definition...plain and simple.  It doesn't matter if you agree or not, that is what the word means.  You cannot change a definition just because you do not like it.

In Christ,
KP

Jesus spoke of faithfulness of the heart. That's what we are to live by. What we choose to do with unfaithfulness of the heart is not a legal or legalistic or even religious matter. It is a spiritual matter. Marriage has always been compared to spiritual matters. If we break trust with God and place our faith in another besides Christ, where does that leave us?

We have choices to make. We don't look to law for those choices, we look to justice, grace, and mercy.

Actually, definition changes are open to debate/usage ....   That doesn't address whether putting words in your mouth is orally acceptable ... porneaish, punnistically speaking.

 I am sorry. I thought that you said that pornea means actual sexual intercourse Then I thought that you said that includes lesbianism which obviously cannt be intercourse. Sexual immorality surely means more than just intercourse?. I am sure that if our spouse committed sexual acts with another we may well feel that was unfaithfullness and sexual immorality wouldnt we?

if you don't mind me asking, has your marriage ended because your husband was not saved or did he have a porn issue, i would just like to hear from someone who has been in a similar situation as me.how did you handle it? it's very emotional , and lonely,  trust is a big thing for me, i have been lied to since childhood by people i should have been able to trust, mom, dad, sister,best friend. i thought i finally i found someone i could trust, my husband, but not so. i know i can trust Jesus, but i'm not sure what he is trying to teach me with so much betrayal in my life.

The only way a human being can break trust with another is through viewing pornography.

Sometimes your sarcasm is very witty and highly entertaining.  Sometimes, not so much.

Thanks.  And sorry!   My point hopefully is very clear.   If you listen to a wife's analysis of a husband's struggle they should be sensitive to a husband's analysis of the wife's struggle.  Husbands aren't wives with a penis so they aren't going to be "chicks".  That doesn't mean pornography isn't a sin that can destroy a marriage.  It is.  But trust and respect and so forth isn't limited to the self perspective analysis of the partner.  (Whatever that means!  Good grief, I am sure waxing inelloguent today)   Romance novels can destroy, Lifetime channel discussions about men can destroy, poor advise can destroy.   etc etc etc.   

However, I would far rather my spouse read a romance novel than looked at photos or films of naked people having sex and committing various types of sexual acts.

I think zoo was addressing the unrealistic expectations many women have of men from societal influence & advertising as being just as dangerous as porn (and I agree).

While that certainly sounds ... clearly preferable, if a steamy romance novel provides the same stimulation then there is no difference.   Men ain't gonna read a romance novel with the same passion I suspect.  If the end result is sinful desires etc. the source of the stimulus is mute.

 yes I wouldnt read a steamy romance novel either.
 Also my husbands ex wife used to love historical romance films on tv and in films and while they werent 'Steamy' they do give a lady the impression that there is 'Mr perfect' out there like the heros in these films, forgetting that they are actually acting. She used to make him watch them with her (maybe she was hoping that he would change and be like them or something)
Sort of like the porn films make men think that there are women out there whose one and only desire is to please them sexually. Of course they are only acting as well, so both things in my opinion arent at all helpful for a married couple, or anyone for that matter.However I cannot call watching a historical romance film or reading a romance novel sexually immoral. (unless it is very explicit sexually).

Some romance novels are about the same. 3/4 of the way back into the novel there is quite often one or more rather graphically-detailed "encounter" of a sexual type.

There really isn't much difference in the images suggested.

Some people are lewinskied and others are harlequined.

I thought my marriage would last until Jesus came.  My husband announced to me one day that he did not love me and never did.  He stated that he was unhappy and he knew that I could not be happy because he had not hugged, kissed or touched me in quite some time.  Even though I was not pleased with what was happening in my marriage, I wanted to work it out.  I had suggested counseling to him many times and, though he said that he needed it, he refused.   One of the problems was pornography.  I discovered him on line one night I came out of my bedroom to ask him a question.  He was watching women with animals.  I was shocked and disgusted.  When I questioned him about it, he said that this was the first time he had done this since we had been married and it just popped up.  I knew that things would pop up sometimes but I, also, knew you had to click on it in order to watch it.   This was only the beginning.  His attention to me became less and less and when he did want to be with me, I felt more like his hooker instead of his wife. 

After he told me that he was not happy, he admitted that he had been involved in pornography during our entire marriage.  He stated that he only married me because of lust and the lust had worn off.  He stated that there was no passion and that is what he wanted.  He said a lot of things to me that were insulting and without feeling.  He di snot interested in reconciliation and after he told me that he has been lying to me our entire marriage, neither am I.  Marriage is sacred and it should be fought for because it is the institution that the enemy tries the hardest to tear down.  But when only one person wants that marriage, there can be no success.  My husband does not want to let go of the porn.  He prefers it over anything, even salvation.  Everytime he watched a woman beening brutalized by animal or man, he was committing adultry because he was taking part in what he was watching.  He told me that it was just for entertainment purposes and I told him that watching a woman being abused was not entertainment.  It was a sin and anyone watching it was taking part in it.  He became angry with me and continued to watch. 

Oral sex is included... You are twisting the definition to prove you are right.  When two people sexually copulate... that is sex... intercourse.. and Porn is not.  For a man and a woman... and a woman and woman.  But, masturbation or lusting in the heart is not the sin that justifies divorce.  Not according to what Jesus said.  He addressed them separately. 

I said that porn is not sin unto divorce... you insist it is... and you said the definition covers that... and it doesn't.  K-Pappy posted the literal definition.  Which is truth.  You don't see it, because you don't want to. 

Phoebe is right, it can become an obsession and destroy a marriage,  but the use of porn itself is NOT justification for divorce.  Sorry.

Pretty much.

Here is another definition for you...pardon the language, I am quoting directly:

Intercourse - 1. Sexual act during which the penis is inserted into the partner's vagina (vaginal sex) or anus (anal sex) or mouth (oral sex). 2.  of penises and toys in the vagina and rectum. 3.  A particular town in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania in the United States.

In Christ,
KP

Sahg, just responding to your post. My computer has been down.

I am glad your eyes are being opened regarding porn. It is mental adultery. Christianity is not against sex it is for sex but in marriage. Porn takes it outside marriage through the lust of the eyes. It goes further than that and goes physical in many cases without going into it.

I cannot see a future for the marriage with this going on. Anyway you know what I think and you have to do what you need to do. Try not to feed on these liberal philosophies as they are not the truth and they come from somewhere else.

Raymond

Brilliant Phoebe. It's the spirit of it which counts and the things Chosenone is pointing out touch on this. The danger here is legalism (again). Any sex outside marriage could fall into the definition of pornea in my opinion. A wife will know it and feel it when it happens. She will know when the legitimate intimacy has been cut through by another activity.

Raymond

Your post speaks volumes Betrayed. Who is the one who will dare lock you into this marriage using legalism? Certainly not me. May you find the person that you deserve and one who honours Him.

Raymond

  however I would still far rather have  a spouse who read a romance book than one who looked at naked people acting out sexual acts on each other.

 Maybe read the post from betrayed above to see that porn use is just as sexually immoral and damaging as oral sex or any other sexual act beween a man and a women.So a man who is looking at a film  of women having sex with animals isn't sexual immorality?

Betrayed. I cant imagine what you are going through. I can only imagine your pain and sense of total betrayal. I, like Blondie, could never suggest that you had to be tied to this man for ever. In your place I would really be praying about separation and divorce if he wont stop, or even try to. His whole idea of a loving sexual relationship has been totally damaged now, and he probably cant even be aroused by normal sex any more by the appalling things that he has been looking at. Sadly porn use does usually progress into worse and worse things and often into actual physical betrayal as well as this type .

  I know a lady who God clearly led to divorce her husband because of serious Porn use. She was a strong Christian and knew 100% that this is what she was being led to do. She also had to think of her Children who were playing in the same room as he was looking at porn in and he is now only allowed supervised access to them once a week to see them, thanks to a judge with some common sense.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but to me long term porn use that is unrepentant is grounds for divorce as it is sexual immorality. None of us can prove Biblically that it is or it isn't, because Porn as we know it was never mentioned in the Bible. although even uncovering nakedness was always something very serious.  

is what the husband of 'betrayed' did not sexual immorality? I would say so.Very serious sexual immorality. I cant understand this mindset that says that there had to be one physical touch for it it be sexually immoral, or for it to be a serious betrayal of the spouse. 

Of course you would.  It is a more acceptable female thing to do.   Still promotes lust, no different than pornography.

Freedom to do what you want in the name of anti-legalism?

double standards on lust, equal rights for the pulpit!

 I dont do either (look at porn or read romance novels), But I am sure that any spouse would rather their spouse read a book than looked at porn.
A good romance novel doesnt always produce lust, unless it has sex scenes in it, and then it is wrong to read anyway.  I see reading romance novels or watching historical romances inadvisable becuase they can make someone have an unrealistic expectation of their spouse rather then becuase it makes them lust.
However I cant see the comparison being similar. Ask yourself what you would prefer your spouse to do. look at naked men/women committ sex acts or read  a book?.  Ask those women who have posted on here in despair which they would prefer.

Those of you who dont think that longterm and constant porn use is sexual immorality, and there fore isnt grounds for divorce, what would they advise a woman whose life is in tatters becuase of that (and like my friend who may also need to protect their children from it also), what it their advice?
. Stay in a deplorable situation? Or seperate but have to stay joined to the man forever?

You know my answer to that Chosenone. The legalists would tie her up I expect. The letter kills but the spirit brings life. 2 Cor 3:6.  Are they the ones obsessed with disputes and arguments over words? 1 Tim 6:4. Isn't the word spirit and life? Your friend needs encouragement and help to do the right thing. I'm sure you will give her good advice Chosenone.

On romantic novels. My wife and I love watching Jane Austin stuff. Is that wrong? Whatever, it is a million miles from porn. The two cannot be compared. Very weak argument.

 Romantic films are to be enjoyed and even though I dont like them. I cant see how anyone could possibly compare them to porn.Is there  gratious sex in them? Are there naked people in them committing sexual acts?

the only danger I can see is that maybe a women who is almost addicted to romance novels and films may allow it to give her unreal expectation of her husband, forgetting that these men arent really like that , they are acting. 

 The friend I mentioned long ago divorced her husband for his behaviour. She had no hesitation when she found out what he had been doing with the children in the same room. They were her proirity.

So, because we do not agree that looking at a photograph or a film of people engaged in sex, is a reason for divorce, we are teaching false doctrines according to you?

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

Where exactly do you find the biblical scriptures to support your "opinion" ?

Many here have provided good, Godly advice. Based solely on scripture. They took no liberty with the scriptures. They did not changes words or add to them. Someone merely added a definition of pornea and intercourse. Now we are teaching false doctrines? Wow....

I do not agree with pornography. I have always taken a stand against it. It is disgusting, disrespectful and hurtful to those who have to be compared with these things. But... Is it grounds for a divorce? According to scripture it is not.

What should this woman do? Separate from her husband.. That's what... The one thing that most people tend to take "liberty" with is, they think God's number one priority is their happiness. Or that they are guaranteed happiness? Where does the bible say that? It doesn't. We reap what we sow. Was this person like this before marriage? Were there any subtle hints? I can't tell you that... But one thing about consequences... (Reaping what we sow)... Sometimes, we get caught up in other peoples storms.. WE pay a price for their actions... That is a matter of simple facts.

God never promised me or you happiness. We are to be devoted to the Lord. He will be faithful to us. But does that mean we'll like what we get? No, it doesn't.

Running away is an easy thing to do. It is easier than staying or you'd stay. That is also as simple as that. It isn't right for me or you to tell someone what God thinks or how God will react to something. That is an individual thing. Yes, we are a body. One body in Christ. But, we have individual roles to fulfill.

God told us why to divorce.. Does it meet that burden of approval? Biblical speaking? I say no. You say yes.. But to say we, who feel that way, are teaching a false doctrine is just wrong.



No, it is not a million miles from porn. If you can watch a "romance movie" and become aroused, it is the exact same thing. Just dressed in different clothing. I have never watched a Jane Austin movie, but I have seen some of the romance novels and what they contain. I assure you, and my wife would agree, that they DO and WILL arouse some woman. So, what is the difference?

You are wrong.

I've read snippets out of said "romance" books, and they are basically nothing more than erotica.  Written depictions of pornography.   The mind is where we lust, whether they are visual depictions of mental depictions brought on by the written word.

I agree Gary. Same thing. Just dressed in different clothes.

mac you say that the women should separate. Then what? if the husband wont stop even after separating and wont get help after a long period, what is their future?Do they just stay 'married' but apart for the rest of their lives?That is no marriage anyway.

I don't understand after reading some of the appalling accounts of some women here how anyone can consider what they have been through as any less sexually immoral as their husband committing sexual acts with someone else .I have heard one or two say that it would have been far easier if their spouse had had a one off affair than had years and years of porn use.
  
Also mac I don't think that we are talking about looking at 'a photo or a film' as being what is being referred to here. It is the long term use of serious porn over a long period of time and we are probably talking about hundreds if not thousands of naked people doing all sorts of sexual acts many of them lewd and obscene, and almost certainly masturbating as well.  I don't think that anyone is talking about divorcing their husband for looking at a picture of a naked women on one or two occasions, but long term unrepentant use, when he has no intention of stopping, and which is damaging the marriage the wife and probably the children.

None of us can say what the Bible would have said about what we today know as serious porn use. In its current form it simply wasn't around then, so no one can actually say for sure what Jesus or Paul would have said about that, although the Bible does talk about the seriousness of uncleanness and uncovering nakedness which is very revelant. Sexually immorality can cover many things.Being unfaithful to your spouse through constant porn use is just as painful to her as if you were being physically unfaithful, and at least then she would be 'allowed' to divorce.

The lady that I knew had the full support of her pastor also and he was a good and godly man.

I cannot agree that this red herring about romance novels is in anyway comparable.

 So would you rather your wife watched  historical romances or constantly looked at pictures of good looking naked men committing sexual acts? We are not talking about the evils or not of romance films or books here, it is porn that is the issus. if anyone wants to they can start another thread about romance if they think it is so serious.

I am not talking about the Jane Austin's of the world. That is a historical romance. But it is not explicit in detail. A lot of your romance novels are though.

What I am saying is, a man looks at porn and becomes aroused. A woman reads a romance novel and becomes aroused.. What is the difference? Same result. They are "dressed" differently, but have the same affect on the people partaking.

So, the question is, where is the line crossed? Is it solely based on the act of viewing the porn or reading the book? Or does it become wrong when you act on it?

Believe me chosenone, you know I am against porn. But saying a person is lead by God to divorce their husband because he looked at porn is, in my opinion, wrong.

I am thinking that the whole issue has been covered thoroughly.  There has been 21 pages.  If anyone has anything that is truly new to add, please do so.

Otherwise, if the same arguments are going to be used over and over and folks are going to accuse other folks of legalism, it will be locked soon.

Good for her Chosenone. I am sure it was the right thing in this intance. There is a difference between a person struggling with it and trying to overcome it and one who just says for instance "all men do it" or something similar. All I am saying is that they should have the freedom to choose and not be tied up by some legalist. I would say this only applies to sexual things which porn is. A lot of wives are suffering this and answers are needed.

I do not say these things lightly, but when Jesus said that a man who looks on another woman and lusts after her has committed adultery with her already with her in his heart He speaks volumes. One is not saying one look = divorce, but there is a level that this can get to which has all the effects of adultery (particularly where there is no repentance) and a woman who is looking to the Lord for answers should not be at the mercy of those arguing about the meaning of pornea for instance, although I do happen to agree with your interpretation.

 

 yes Mac I know that you are against porn and you seem like a godly man like my husband, but what would you advise anyone who has alerady seperated and nothong has changed and years have passed. Are they to be tied to this sham of a marriage forever?
I do believe that the lady I know was led to divorce. Her children were at risk and she never hesitated. She has never regretted it or felt that she did the wrong thing as far as I know.I cant judge her for what she had to do.

 if a book is purely erotica then we shouldnt be reading them.