is pornography grounds for divorce

[phoebe]

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As a women I can imagine that is feels as if a knife is being stuck in you every time that your husband looks at porn. After time it would damage you severaly both emotionally and spiritually. A person can only take so much of this before they break.

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Like a knife repeatedly stabbing and twisting, and salt poured and rubbed into the gaping, bleeding wounds, that reach into the very core of your being, destroying any and all self-esteem. It is repeated affairs with endless multiple images.

A wife can fight flesh, win back her husband if she chooses. But this... this she can't compete.

[chosenone]

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As a women I can imagine that is feels as if a knife is being stuck in you every time that your husband looks at porn. After time it would damage you severally both emotionally and spiritually. A person can only take so much of this before they break.

...

Like a knife repeatedly stabbing and twisting, and salt poured and rubbed into the gaping, bleeding wounds, that reach into the very core of your being, destroying any and all self-esteem. It is repeated affairs with endless multiple images.

A wife can fight flesh, win back her husband if she chooses. But this... this she can't compete.

  Phoebe I can only imagine the horror of it and that is why I could never tell any woman that they have to stay married to a man who thinks nothing of doing such awful things to his wife who he is supposed to love and cherish above all others.
As you say you cannot fight porn in the same way that you can fight another person.
 It is all around and you cannot stop it if the spouse doesn't want to.It is unfaithfulness day after day month after month, year after year with hundreds of other women. IT is SERIOUS stuff and marriage breaking stuff.

My husband committed serious sexual immorality for years and years. (It wasn't porn). I didn't know about it until 10 years ago when I found out . That was a  nightmare.It was so serious that we immediately separated (the same day) and later divorced.

 I wouldn't be able to stay with a man like your ex who treated me like rubbish and would rather look at other women in films or pictures than be faithful to me. I wouldn't be able to cope with the pain and deep hurt that you describe and neither should any other person have to. That is NOT what marriage is about.

Praise God that you have found a good man now though, as I have.

[Blondie]

We get your message loud and clear Phoebe. No woman should have to suffer this. It must have cut to the core of your being. You underline well what porn in a marriage can do. Marriage is supposed to be an intimate, pure and faithful thing. Doing porn makes a mockery of this. Well done Chosenone for sticking to your points. You are vindicated in my eyes and more importantly have given hope to those who think they have to be chained to this stuff.

[chosenone]

I am still hoping for an answer to my question that I asked those who dont believe that serious unrepentant porn use is grounds for divorce. You all seem to say that she should sererate buit what if he doesnt stop and wont stop. Is she then to be married to a man for the rest of her life who wont stop being unfaithful and isnt repentant? What is her next step to be?

[Mac]

I am still hoping for an answer to my question that I asked those who dont believe that serious unrepentant porn use is grounds for divorce. You all seem to say that she should sererate buit what if he doesnt stop and wont stop. Is she then to be married to a man for the rest of her life who wont stop being unfaithful and isnt repentant? What is her next step to be?

You are basing that it is ok to divorce, because of porn, based on what your opinion is. Your opinion is that porn equals adultery.

All I have said is, it doesn't. And that is my opinion.

I understand where you draw that conclusion. If you thought it, you did it. That is biblical. I understand.

Now, I have a personal stake in this. My wife was on the receiving end of this type of abuse. Her ex was addicted to porn and treated her like an object. Very humiliating and destructive for her. But, she will tell you today, that divorcing him was wrong. She wouldn't have stayed anyway. But she accepts that it was/is wrong. This is not my thoughts but her own thoughts on the matter. We have discussed it many times. Who am I say what is or isn't right. I know this.... I respect her opinion on this matter because she has been there. What he did was wrong. But what she did was wrong as well. According to her. Now, does it mean she lives in shame every day? No. She doesn't. But she will tell, if asked, it was wrong to divorce her husband. She doesn't regret it, but wrong nonetheless.

You also asked what type of a married life would it be if a woman separated and had to live like that for years.. It would be the life we chose. That's what. We are married for better or worse. Sickness, health... Richer or poorer.. Until death us do part...

Jesus gave us a reason to divorce. Adultery. I also add in there abandonment and abuse... Can porn fall under emotional abuse? Absolutely. Does it every time? I really don't know. I know this, I have seen guys who look at porn regularly, but they treat their wife like a queen and she will tell you he does. Do I agree with it? No, I do not. Should he look at it? No, they shouldn't. Does the wife have a reason to divorce him because he looks at this stuff? I say no. It is a sin problem between him and the Lord.

By the way, calling the comparison between the romance novels and viewing porn a "red herring" is just wrong. If I look at a video (porn) and get aroused, this is wrong... But a woman can read a book, explicit romance novel, becomes aroused, but it is ok.. I do not see the "red herring" here. It is the same, exact thing. I have said this before... Men are visually aroused. My own wife said, the thought of watching two people have sex on a video makes her want to be sick. But, reading a romance novel can be arousing. (She used to read them). What is the difference? The outcome is the same.

[HRoberson]

I am still hoping for an answer to my question that I asked those who dont believe that serious unrepentant porn use is grounds for divorce. You all seem to say that she should sererate buit what if he doesnt stop and wont stop. Is she then to be married to a man for the rest of her life who wont stop being unfaithful and isnt repentant? What is her next step to be?

The problem with the question is that the final determination is with the married person. I believe porn use, in and of itself, isn't grounds for divorce. But again, I don't think adultery, in and of itself, is either. However, I'm not prepared to establish a rule that says such-and-such is grounds for divorce for anyone else. All such questions are situation dependent and are ultimately up to the people involved.

[Blondie]

You are making sense HRoberson in that it up to the people involved. I agree with you that porn or adultery of itself is not grounds for divorce but it can be. If porn were the grounds for divorce then I have no problem with that. What I was against is locking a woman into a marriage in a legalistic way to someone who was using porn unrepentantly, which I believe is a form of adultery, but I do not want to start yet another discussion on that point. On the other hand I am not talking about a licence for divorce as soon as a line is crossed. The people involved would have to work it out as you say.

[Blondie]

I am still hoping for an answer to my question that I asked those who dont believe that serious unrepentant porn use is grounds for divorce. You all seem to say that she should sererate buit what if he doesnt stop and wont stop. Is she then to be married to a man for the rest of her life who wont stop being unfaithful and isnt repentant? What is her next step to be?

You are basing that it is ok to divorce, because of porn, based on what your opinion is. Your opinion is that porn equals adultery.

All I have said is, it doesn't. And that is my opinion.

I understand where you draw that conclusion. If you thought it, you did it. That is biblical. I understand.

Now, I have a personal stake in this. My wife was on the receiving end of this type of abuse. Her ex was addicted to porn and treated her like an object. Very humiliating and destructive for her. But, she will tell you today, that divorcing him was wrong. She wouldn't have stayed anyway. But she accepts that it was/is wrong. This is not my thoughts but her own thoughts on the matter. We have discussed it many times. Who am I say what is or isn't right. I know this.... I respect her opinion on this matter because she has been there. What he did was wrong. But what she did was wrong as well. According to her. Now, does it mean she lives in shame every day? No. She doesn't. But she will tell, if asked, it was wrong to divorce her husband. She doesn't regret it, but wrong nonetheless.

You also asked what type of a married life would it be if a woman separated and had to live like that for years.. It would be the life we chose. That's what. We are married for better or worse. Sickness, health... Richer or poorer.. Until death us do part...

Jesus gave us a reason to divorce. Adultery. I also add in there abandonment and abuse... Can porn fall under emotional abuse? Absolutely. Does it every time? I really don't know. I know this, I have seen guys who look at porn regularly, but they treat their wife like a queen and she will tell you he does. Do I agree with it? No, I do not. Should he look at it? No, they shouldn't. Does the wife have a reason to divorce him because he looks at this stuff? I say no. It is a sin problem between him and the Lord.

By the way, calling the comparison between the romance novels and viewing porn a "red herring" is just wrong. If I look at a video (porn) and get aroused, this is wrong... But a woman can read a book, explicit romance novel, becomes aroused, but it is ok.. I do not see the "red herring" here. It is the same, exact thing. I have said this before... Men are visually aroused. My own wife said, the thought of watching two people have sex on a video makes her want to be sick. But, reading a romance novel can be arousing. (She used to read them). What is the difference? The outcome is the same.

Mac I understand where you are coming from and you are entitled to your view. If your wife thinks as she does fair enough, but it doesn't change my view on it you understand.

[chosenone]

Mac Thank you for answering my question.
I don't say that porn use is adultery, but I do feel that it is 'pornea', which is sexual immorality.Pornea is more that actual adultery.There is a separate word that means adultery alone.

You also said that living separated is what we choose, and that we are married for better or for worse, but is being married but living apart all the time and never seeing each other actually being married? What sort of marriage is that?

I appreciate that you wife feels that she shouldn't have divorced her ex husband, but what does she think that she should have done? Would she have felt better if she had lived a sort of half life not being married but not being divorced by living apart for good?How could she honour her vows by never even seeing the man who she was married to?

The lady I have referred to never regretted her decision,as well as herself, she needed to protect her young children form the porn, and I am sure that many others haven't, but I appreciate that we are all different. I also think that sometimes God leads us to divorce for unfaithfulness for example and sometimes he leads us to stay and work at the marriage. of course he knows the future and we don't.. We need to be open to hearing him.

I for example feel that I couldn't ever trust my spouse again if he was unfaithful to me with another women, and without trust what is there? others may be able to do that. My brother (who isn't a Christian) forgave his wife for her first two affairs but when it got to three and four enough was enough. I couldn't have done what he did.The trust would have been gone.

Mac you also said that abandonment and abuse are grounds for divorce. The Bible does say that abandonment by a non Christian spouse is grounds for divorce but if we are being totally by the book here, where does it say that abuse or abandonment by a believer is grounds for divorce.? If long term and unrepentant porn use isn't grounds for divorce because it isn't biblical then surely neither is abuse nor abandonment by a believing spouse
.In that case the abused or abandoned spouse cannot divorce either and just like the victim of a spouse who is into serious porn then they should also just separate and live separate lives without divorcing also.
I am not trying to be difficultl, I am just trying to understand what you are saying. I hope that you can see what I am asking here.

If you say that abuse is grounds for divorce even though it doesn't seem to be in the Bible, then the type of porn use as described by people on this forum surely is abuse of one of the the worst kinds and therefore would be grounds for divorce.It would seem to be both sexual and emotional abuse..

By the way,just to clarify, I wanted to point out that the reason that my marriage ended wasn't because of porn or anything similar, so these feelings and thoughts that I have about the victims of porn aren't personal to me.

Also with the couples that you mention where the husband looks at porn. Do the wives know that the men do that? Maybe they do it at work or when the wives are not around?. Also do they do it occasionally or is it a total addiction that they do all the time whenever and wherever they can.?

[Mac]

Mac Thank you for answering my question.
I don't say that porn use is adultery, but I do feel that it is 'pornea', which is sexual immorality.Pornea is more that actual adultery.There is a separate word that means adultery alone.

I assumed that you made the tie in (porn to adultery) based on your belief that porn can lead to divorce. Seeing as you have posted that adultery was the only reason for divorce before, I made an assumption. If I am in error, I am sorry.

You also said that living separated is what we choose, and that we are married for better or for worse, but is being married but living apart all the time and never seeing each other actually being married? What sort of marriage is that?

It would be the marriage we chose. What if I was to get married tomorrow and be horribly injured a week later? What kind of marriage would that be? Can't talk, walk, etc... Would it be acceptable for my wife to leave me? I guess it all depends on how you view the sanctity of marriage.

Prayer is powerful. I believe a woman or a man who is willing to sacrifice of themself to pray without ceasing for their marriage, is honorable. I guess it boils down to an individual decision and belief. God never told us to divorce if our spouse was unfaithful. Actually would prefer you to try and reconcile. But, He has allowed it. Because of our inability to deal with things. Look at Hosea. Look at what he asked him to do. She prostituted herself out to other men while she was married. But God made it right.

Faith in God is a powerful thing.

I know some woman are treated like dirt by husband s who view this stuff. I have been very adamant about how wrong it is to view porn. I have seen first hand what it does to a woman. It is awful. I am not insinuating that a woman stay in a marriage when they are abused. I just have seen to many woman run off screaming that their husband had committed "mental adultery" because they caught them looking at pornography. I just do not agree with that.

I appreciate that you wife feels that she shouldn't have divorced her ex husband, but what does she think that she should have done? Would she have felt better if she had lived a sort of half life not being married but not being divorced by living apart for good?

She thinks she should have done what she did. But, she thinks it is not biblical supported. So, she thinks divorcing your husband for porn is not right. But, she did not stay in the marriage. Her relationship with the Lord wasn't as deep then either.

How could she honour her vows by never even seeing the man who she was married to?

Well, that really boils down to what you think about vows. Marriage vows are made to God as well as your spouse. If the Lord told us not to leave a nonbeliever, why would we divorce a believer who is struggling? It just doesn't make much sense to me.

The lady I have referred to never regretted her decision, and I am sure that many others haven't, but we are all different.

Like I said, my wife didn't regret her decision either. However, she does recognize the issue at hand and if given an opportunity to counsel a woman who's husband was into porn, she would advise her to separate but remain married. If it became an issue of nonrepentant behavior with the man after some time, I do not know how she would advise her. I will ask her.

Mac you also said that abandonment and abuse are grounds for divorce. The Bible does say that abandonment by a non Christian spouse is grounds for divorce but if we are being totally by the book here, where does it say that abuse or abandonment by a  believer is grounds for divorce.?

HRoberson and I had this discussion. I believe that by using the whole counsel of Gods Word, a person can logically say that Jesus would not want a woman to be physically abused or abandoned. It goes against everything He taught us in the scriptures. I believe if a man makes his wife fear him, there is no way for them to remain married. She will live in a constant state of fear. That is not acceptable.

If long term and unrepentant porn use isn't grounds for divorce because it isn't biblical then neither is abuse nor abandonment by a believing spouse surely.In that case the abused or abandoned spouse cannot divorce either and just like the victim of a spouse who is into serious porn then they should also just separate and live separate lives without divorcing also.
I am not trying to be difficult at all, I am just trying to understand what you are saying. I hope that you can see what I am asking here.

If you say that abuse is grounds for divorce even though it doesn't seem to be in the Bible, then the type of porn use as described by people on this forum surely is abuse of the worst kind and therefore would be grounds for divorce.It would seem to be both sexual and emotional abuse far worse than some other types of abuse.

I think the point I need to make is, if a man has begun to abuse his wife (degrade, humiliate, etc..) physically (sexually) and mentally (emotionally), she should not stay in that environment. I have never advocated such either. The path should be, separation, then at last resort, divorce. But in extreme cases.

My whole point is, just because a man looks at naked woman on pictures or film, this does not constitute a reason for divorce. In my opinion. But if it "devolves" into something more, it very well may lead to divorce.

By the way,just to clarify, I wanted to point out that the reason that my marriage ended wasn't because of porn or anything similar, so these feelings and thoughts that I have about the victims of porn aren't personal to me.

Got it.

Also with the couples that you mention where the husband looks at porn. Do the wives know that the men do that? Maybe they do it at work or when the wives are not around?. Also do they do it occasionally or is it a total addiction that they do all the time whenever and wherever they can.?

Some do and some don't. Wives knowing I mean. I think it is despicable to look at it. I don't do it. It is disrespectful and hurtful to a wife to do that. There is no way a man can reconcile that behavior with how we are to treat our wife as Christ instructed us.

You never did answer my question about the difference between the porn and romance novels having the same outcome.. Man looks at porn and becomes aroused. Woman reads a explicit novel and becomes aroused. What is the difference?

[chosenone]

I dont think that either reading explicit sexy novels or looking at porn is ever going to help any marriage.I have had the experience of reading a normal novel (not a romance one)and there has been a part where the people in it had sex. Even if that wasnt  explicit I would still stop reading it becuase  people who arent married shouldnt be having sex and I shouldnt be reading it no matter how it is written.

I agree totally that if reading a  book incites lust we shouldnt be reading it. However looking at often appalling sexual acts and many many naked people to me seems much worse. I may be wrong but I cannot see how they can be comparable in their severity. I feel that most people if asked would far rather their husband or wife read a book that looked at porn. Wouldnt you?

   

[Blondie]

Reading between the lines it seems that some kind of agreement has been achieved apart from the finer details, although I feel sorry for the wives that your wife may counsel about porn Mac, but thats by the way.

With regard to abandonment it does say if an unbeliever wants to leave let them. A brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases.

[Mac]

although I feel sorry for the wives that your wife may counsel about porn Mac, but thats by the way.

Why would you feel sorry that my wife would tell them to have faith in the Lord and give Him a chance to work in the marriage before bolting and lining up for a divorce? I would definitely feel sorry for any woman you would counsel to leave their husband because of porn. And that is not by the way. It is straight from my heart.

[Mac]

I feel that most people if asked would far rather their husband or wife read a book that looked at porn. Wouldnt you?

I guess I would feel, What's the difference. Both achieve the same reaction. If I found out my wife was reading "explicit" romance novels and becoming aroused and , well, self satisfying, I really would not be able to say there is a difference between the two. It is the same in the end.

It is almost like drugs. There are many types... Marijuana, crack, cocaine, heroine, etc... When used, the result is all the same though. Getting high on drugs.

[Blondie]

although I feel sorry for the wives that your wife may counsel about porn Mac, but thats by the way.

Why would you feel sorry that my wife would tell them to have faith in the Lord and give Him a chance to work in the marriage before bolting and lining up for a divorce? I would definitely feel sorry for any woman you would counsel to leave their husband because of porn. And that is not by the way. It is straight from my heart.

I am not against someone encouraging faith in the Lord Mac and I have never said that one should not give God a chance in a marriage. What I am against is using scripture in the wrong way to chain a woman to a husband who is using porn unrepentantly. If thats the way women are counseled I disagree with it thats all. I thought we had clarified all these points. We just agree to differ. I am not going to argue it any more.