is pornography grounds for divorce

[chosenone]

I think we are talking here about long term unrepentant use of porn  and not that the first time we find our spouse looking we rush off and divorce. if a wife has been advised to seperate (and wives are actually told not to seperate in the Bible, but that is a different issue )and after a long period nothing has changed , then what? That is what my question is. 
If I was married to a man who wasnt prepared to stop even if it meant loosing his wife and family,and he had been given many chances, then he has made his decision and he would have to live with that.
There are always consequenses to our sin. If men put porn before their wives what is that saying to their wives? That porn is more important.? How soul destroying for the wife.

If I met a lady who had seperated or even if she hadnt, but had given her husband chance after chance and he had been challenged by others maybe in the church and still he didnt stop, I would pray with her, but I would definately be open to God saying that she needed to leave for good and maybe divorce. That would be up to God, I wouldnt tell her to actually do anything, just advise her to be open to God and what He is saying. If she is actually at the total end of her resourses and both her and her children were suffering terribly, then I wouldnt be at all surprised if God told her to end the marriage.
 Even if people dont agree with me that it is pornea (sexual immorality)it  definately is abuse just as bad as any other abuse in my opnion. 

[Mac]

I am not against someone encouraging faith in the Lord Mac and I have never said that one should not give God a chance in a marriage. What I am against is using scripture in the wrong way to chain a woman to a husband who is using porn unrepentantly. If thats the way women are counseled I disagree with it thats all. I thought we had clarified all these points. We just agree to differ. I am not going to argue it any more.

I (or my wife) have never and would never counsel a woman to stay in a marriage when this behavior was unrepentant. As I said, separation first.. Then, after trying to help him and counsel him, divorce may be in order.

The problem I have is that there is enough pressure on marriage already. Look at the statistics. There are some woman who catch their husband viewing porn and immediately start claiming adultery. That is what I am against. Give the Lord a chance to heal the marriage.

I have never advocated a woman being abused in any way. And as far as I know, I have never used scripture in the wrong way to bond a woman to an abusive man. Physically or mentally abusive.

If I have shown that I want a woman to be abused in any way, that was not my intention. Nor is it the way I feel.

What I am against is using scripture in the wrong way to chain a woman to a husband who is using porn unrepentantly.

I never insinuated or posted anything remotely like that.

[Mac]

I think we are talking here about long term unrepentant use of porn  and not that the first time we find our spouse looking we rush off and divorce.

You are correct. We are on the same page.

if a wife has been advised to seperate (and wives are actually told not to seperate in the Bible, but that is a different issue )and after a long period nothing has changed , then what? That is what my question is. 

Wives are told not to separate but, if they do, be reconciled to her husband. Do not divorce and remarry. 1 Cor 7: 10-11

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

I think that clearly indicates that you can separate for cause, or verse 11 wouldn't be there. And, it answers your question.

If I was married to a man who wasnt prepared to stop even if it meant loosing his wife and family,and he had been given many chances, then he has made his decision and he would have to live with that.
There are always consequenses to our sin. If men put porn before their wives what is that saying to their wives? That porn is more important.? How soul destroying for the wife.

I agree. There are consequences to our sin. It is disrespectful and hurtful to the wife if he does these things. I agree with all of what you have said.

If I met a lady who had seperated or even if she hadnt, but had given her husband chance after chance and he had been challenged by others maybe in the church and still he didnt stop, I would pray with her, but I would definately be open to God saying that she needed to leave for good and maybe divorce.

I agree. Pray for the Lord's intervention and guidance. Pray for the Lord to place a hedge row of thorns in front of his addiction. Pray that the Lord will bring him to repentance through conviction.. Pray for God's hedge of protection for the family.

That would be up to God,

You are exactly correct. This is and has been my whole point. Turn it over to the Lord. You or I shouldn't tell a wife to divorce her husband. Let God do the work. If they are to divorce, let the Lord lead them there. We shouldn't be in the "cheap" seats screaming divorce him...

I wouldnt tell her to actually do anything, just advise her to be open to God and what He is saying. If she is actually at the total end of her resourses and both her and her children were suffering terribly, then I wouldnt be at all surprised if God told her to end the marriage.

I agree. I commented to this above.

Even if people dont agree with me that it is pornea (sexual immorality)it  definately is abuse just as bad as any other abuse in my opnion. 

Yes, it can be. But there are many men who view porn and their wives don't even know it. If a man thinks his wife will leave him if she knew, he is WAY less likely to confide in her. There should be steps to a divorce. But sadly, in today's culture, someone gets mad and poof..... They are divorced within weeks. Sad...

[Blondie]

I am not against someone encouraging faith in the Lord Mac and I have never said that one should not give God a chance in a marriage. What I am against is using scripture in the wrong way to chain a woman to a husband who is using porn unrepentantly. If thats the way women are counseled I disagree with it thats all. I thought we had clarified all these points. We just agree to differ. I am not going to argue it any more.

I (or my wife) have never and would never counsel a woman to stay in a marriage when this behavior was unrepentant. As I said, separation first.. Then, after trying to help him and counsel him, divorce may be in order.

The problem I have is that there is enough pressure on marriage already. Look at the statistics. There are some woman who catch their husband viewing porn and immediately start claiming adultery. That is what I am against. Give the Lord a chance to heal the marriage.

I have never advocated a woman being abused in any way. And as far as I know, I have never used scripture in the wrong way to bond a woman to an abusive man. Physically or mentally abusive.

If I have shown that I want a woman to be abused in any way, that was not my intention. Nor is it the way I feel.

What I am against is using scripture in the wrong way to chain a woman to a husband who is using porn unrepentantly.

I never insinuated or posted anything remotely like that.

So what are we arguing for then? I can agree with that, so long as divorce may be in order when it gets like Phoebe has experienced.

[Mac]

So what are we arguing for then? I can agree with that, so long as divorce may be in order when it gets like Phoebe has experienced.

Didn't realize we were arguing...  

I agree 100%. I guess my snag was the porn-adultery thing. While I do agree that it can become adultery, many men (and some women) fall victim to porn. It is innocent enough to begin with.

The first reaction of a spouse should not be to scream I want a divorce. The guidance given from a counselor should not be divorce. At least not at first.

But because some women have been injured in this way, and the counselors they are seeing are women, the result can be devastating. They innertwine their own experience into "their" advice for others. That is a no-no.

As I said before, I know exactly how it affects women. My wife is a living example of it.  

I believe that God's wisdom alone should be sought. And anyone in a position to help these people who think otherwise, shouldn't be in a position to do that.

I know people will divorce because they are abused and sick of the pornography. I am not saying they shouldn't. Only it shouldn't be their first and only option.

Peace...

[phoebe]

So what are we arguing for then? I can agree with that, so long as divorce may be in order when it gets like Phoebe has experienced.

Didn't realize we were arguing... 

I agree 100%. I guess my snag was the porn-adultery thing. While I do agree that it can become adultery, many men (and some women) fall victim to porn. It is innocent enough to begin with.

The first reaction of a spouse should not be to scream I want a divorce. The guidance given from a counselor should not be divorce. At least not at first.

But because some women have been injured in this way, and the counselors they are seeing are women, the result can be devastating. They innertwine their own experience into "their" advice for others. That is a no-no.

As I said before, I know exactly how it affects women. My wife is a living example of it. 

I believe that God's wisdom alone should be sought. And anyone in a position to help these people who think otherwise, shouldn't be in a position to do that.

I know people will divorce because they are abused and sick of the pornography. I am not saying they shouldn't. Only it shouldn't be their first and only option.

Peace...

Who better to advise than someone who understands, someone who has been there, walked in those shoes?!?

What counselors? What makes you think we have "women counselors", and what makes you think they  give "devastating" advice? Why did I have to wait until I was nearly destroyed before it was "OK" to get that divorce???

Dude, I walked through this mess with no human being at my side, no one to lean on, no one to talk, no one who understood, no one to pick me up and carry me. It was just me and God. One cannot so easily go to others with this kind of humiliation. It isn't the problem of non-Christians, this shame of telling someone your husband has a porn problem, it's the problem of Christians. Some people won't believe you. Some will tell you that it is "your cross to bear". Others will want you to go through counseling where you get to sit and listen to the jerk lie about how he lives his life. OH! And my favorite: If you would just give him more sex, "satisfy" him more! His hunger was insatiable! It's an addiction that is a high that requires more and more and more. And it began with pornography. Stats prove the addicting power of pornography. The internet and it's easy accessibility and privacy has taken Playboy magazines to a whole new level. Stats are proving that the increasing number of child predators is directly related to internet pornography. It's a mistake to underestimate it's power and the damage it leaves in it's wake. It's humiliating and shaming to tell others that your husband is a pervert. And frightening. Telling someone may put you in physical danger.

I was raised believing that divorce was sin, and it was treated as though it was the unforgivable one, at that.  I might STILL be married to the jerk if he had not left me. THAT was a gift from God! His pornography led to sex with hookers, then married neighbors and "friends", customers of our business, molested a teenage girl who worked for us, a man and his adult son with whom we did business, and finally left me because he was in a relationship with a very wealthy, married, black woman. Thought she could offer him something more-lucrative. She dumped him as soon as he left me. He brought home STD's. He has been married and divorced 5 times now. We had no children. I miscarried twice, another gift from God. He was a Christian all his life, an Independent Baptist, one who believed in OSAS. HE KNEW BETTER. I lived with this stuff for seven years. Seven long demeaning years of my life stolen from me because I thought I was doing the "biblically right" thing. Hogwash. God never wanted His children to live like that.

When does one say "Enough!" and it is "OK", "permissible", "Biblical" to get a divorce? The answer is when the vow of faithfulness is broken. It is THEN up to the TWO people involved as to whether they feel they have something salvageable. If I had believed that divorce was an option for me from the beginning, if HE had believed divorce was an option for me from the beginning, if I had been taught that it was unfaithfulness that breaks the vow instead of physical adultery only, my life would have been very, very different.

I left church after that. (Not God. Please see the difference.) It took another eight years and the death of my second husband before I returned to her. It was this loss that brought me to where I am today in my walk with God.

[Mac]

Who better to advise than someone who understands, someone who has been there, walked in those shoes?!?

As long as a person who has been through this can keep their personal feelings out of it, it is fine.
What is right for one, may not be right for another. But of course you know this.
 

What counselors? What makes you think we have "women counselors", and what makes you think they  give "devastating" advice? Why did I have to wait until I was nearly destroyed before it was "OK" to get that divorce???

The churches I have ever been involved with had woman counselors for the woman. A laity center. The devastating advice I was talking about is when a counselor injects their personal experience/situation into it. That can be very destructive. Not always. But sometimes, people are too close to a situation because they are not capable of separating themselves from it.

I hope that makes sense.

Dude, I walked through this mess with no human being at my side, no one to lean on, no one to talk, no one who understood, no one to pick me up and carry me. It was just me and God. One cannot so easily go to others with this kind of humiliation. It isn't the problem of non-Christians, this shame of telling someone your husband has a porn problem, it's the problem of Christians. Some people won't believe you. Some will tell you that it is "your cross to bear". Others will want you to go through counseling where you get to sit and listen to the jerk lie about how he lives his life. OH! And my favorite: If you would just give him more sex, "satisfy" him more! His hunger was insatiable! It's an addiction that is a high that requires more and more and more. And it began with pornography. Stats prove the addicting power of pornography. The internet and it's easy accessibility and privacy has taken Playboy magazines to a whole new level. Stats are proving that the increasing number of child predators is directly related to internet pornography. It's a mistake to underestimate it's power and the damage it leaves in it's wake. It's humiliating and shaming to tell others that your husband is a pervert. And frightening. Telling someone may put you in physical danger.

Wow.. Thank you for sharing that.. I am so, so sorry that you had to endure this treatment. I have seen this before to a certain extent. People like this are animals. Plain and simple. And you are right, divorce is not only ok, it is necessary in a situation like this.

Who ever was counseling you was wrong. More sex? An addict only wants more. More frequency.. More deviant.. More disgusting.. More degrading.. Etc....

I have often said that older (>65) Christians should not counsel people with these problems. They have a hard time identifying with it. The response is what you described.. Disbelief... They can't grasp the concept of how perverted these people really are.

I was raised believing that divorce was sin, and it was treated as though it was the unforgivable one, at that.  I might STILL be married to the jerk if he had not left me. THAT was a gift from God! His pornography led to sex with hookers, then married neighbors and "friends", customers of our business, molested a teenage girl who worked for us, a man and his adult son with whom we did business, and finally left me because he was in a relationship with a very wealthy, married, black woman. Thought she could offer him something more-lucrative. She dumped him as soon as he left me. He brought home STD's. He has been married and divorced 5 times now. We had no children. I miscarried twice, another gift from God. He was a Christian all his life, an Independent Baptist, one who believed in OSAS. HE KNEW BETTER. I lived with this stuff for seven years. Seven long demeaning years of my life stolen from me because I thought I was doing the "biblically right" thing. Hogwash. God never wanted His children to live like that.

This is exactly why I have always had a problem with the OSAS mentality. It is like they have a free pass to do what ever.. But, it isn't like that. I hope they come to grips with their sin life and repent before they stand in judgement.

You have definitely been through the wringer. I am surprised you ever trusted a man again. But, God is good. He is faithful...

When does one say "Enough!" and it is "OK", "permissible", "Biblical" to get a divorce? The answer is when the vow of faithfulness is broken. It is THEN up to the TWO people involved as to whether they feel they have something salvageable. If I had believed that divorce was an option for me from the beginning, if HE had believed divorce was an option for me from the beginning, if I had been taught that it was unfaithfulness that breaks the vow instead of physical adultery only, my life would have been very, very different.

I left church after that. (Not God. Please see the difference.) It took another eight years and the death of my second husband before I returned to her. It was this loss that brought me to where I am today in my walk with God.

You are exactly correct. Your situation passed through adultery and entered emotional, sexual and mental abuse. I am glad you are away from that.

I also hate to hear about the loss of your husband.. Are you remarried?

[Blondie]

Phoebe I am sorry you have been what you went through. I don't know why it took so long to get there on here but I feel even stronger about it than I did before. It is the christian women who suffer this because of the thing about divorce. Many have disagreed that pornography can equal adultery but I think it fits the bill perfectly because it is sexual unfaithfulness as well as the corrupting of the mind. I hope you will be able to help other women in the same position. You have a good grasp of what it really is. Yes Chosenone pornea equals pornography as well, loud and clear. A modern evil unprecedented because of the technology that we have.

I am glad that Gary didn't cut off this thread before we got here. Ladies need to know these things. There are millions who suffer this with nowhere to turn. I am talking about addiction and total denial of true intimacy. We cannot live by rules, we need God's wisdom and spirit in every situation.

I hope Sahg that you find your answers and can draw strength at last from this forum even though it was a close run thing. After all it is your thread and may God give you the answers you seek. Chosenone you are a heroine in persisting in getting through on this.

[phoebe]

Fem - Please know that color/race is not an issue. I was only pointing out that he had no boundaries, that nothing was off limits to him-not marital status, not age, not gender, not color.

God will wipe away my tears. I'm good with that.

Mac - God gave me a very good man.


God is good.

[Fem2009]

Fem - Please know that color/race is not an issue. I was only pointing out that he had no boundaries, that nothing was off limits to him-not marital status, not age, not gender, not color.

God will wipe away my tears. I'm good with that.

Mac - God gave me a very good man.


God is good.

  Good for you!

[lightshineon]

 Yes, it is grounds for divorce. Who wants to be a mans leftover meal, if you catch my drift. If he loves you he will do what it takes, and it is just plain old sin, so he can stop.

[sahg]

...

As a women I can imagine that is feels as if a knife is being stuck in you every time that your husband looks at porn. After time it would damage you severally both emotionally and spiritually. A person can only take so much of this before they break.

...

Like a knife repeatedly stabbing and twisting, and salt poured and rubbed into the gaping, bleeding wounds, that reach into the very core of your being, destroying any and all self-esteem. It is repeated affairs with endless multiple images.

A wife can fight flesh, win back her husband if she chooses. But this... this she can't compete.

  Phoebe I can only imagine the horror of it and that is why I could never tell any woman that they have to stay married to a man who thinks nothing of doing such awful things to his wife who he is supposed to love and cherish above all others.
As you say you cannot fight porn in the same way that you can fight another person.
 It is all around and you cannot stop it if the spouse doesn't want to.It is unfaithfulness day after day month after month, year after year with hundreds of other women. IT is SERIOUS stuff and marriage breaking stuff.

My husband committed serious sexual immorality for years and years. (It wasn't porn). I didn't know about it until 10 years ago when I found out . That was a  nightmare.It was so serious that we immediately separated (the same day) and later divorced.

 I wouldn't be able to stay with a man like your ex who treated me like rubbish and would rather look at other women in films or pictures than be faithful to me. I wouldn't be able to cope with the pain and deep hurt that you describe and neither should any other person have to. That is NOT what marriage is about.

Praise God that you have found a good man now though, as I have.

posbe's situation sounds worse than mine,my heart goes out to her. i look back over all the years of my marriage and what i have been through emotionally and now know my husband was looking at  porn throughout the marriage without me knowing until now, it explains so much to me now, i was blaming myself for the way i felt during sex with my husband, praying for God to help me and asking him what is wrong with me, because my husband kept telling me i was a prude or like a stone and i wasn't normal, i wanted to please my husband. i used to have frequent nightmares where i would wake up yelling NO! or HELP ME! in a sweat. i even became suicidal and he said he couldn't come home from work, it was the grace of God that kept me from pulling the trigger, not my husband. a time long  before that he left work early and home in record time to have sex with me. then i questioned my own salvation, and God began to open up everything to me, he assured me of my salvation and that all these years were not all my fault. i wasn't perfect but it's not all my fault as my husband says it was. he revealed to me my husbands porn use, it explaned so much about why i was having emotional problems. we havn't had relations in quite a long time.....i haven't had a single nightmare since. porn use is very damageing.

[Blondie]

I believe the barrier came between you as soon as the porn became a habit although you didn't realise it at the time Sahg. You sensed it in your spirit though and blamed yourself. He would have been having sex with these images in his heart and then gone in to you full of these images. This stuff is addictive because the enemy of our souls is involved. I personally believe that it defiles the bedroom relationship which should only be between the husband and his wife. I have for a long time now classed it as mental adultery and haven't had a good reason to change that view.

[Fem2009]

As a man thinks in his heart, so is he.  Proverbs 23:7   

[Blondie]

Do you mean watching porn?