Living in a loveless, sexless marriage

[TJW]

He's really that way with many areas of life in general so it really is no surprise that his sex life would have the same characteristic.

So, the underlying problem is likely physical, and not emotional.  Has he been worked up by an endocrinologist?  If not, would he agree to it?

[anx]

I think TJW is talking about testosterone. There are many stories where a drop in testosterone makes a profound effect on a man like hormonal issues in a woman will throw her for a loop.

My best guess is still emotional walls and some of the traits of codependancy.

The reason I think it is that emotional walls are very common in that mindset. Also, check out the wikipedia page on codependancy. I think your husband lines up with a lot of the things under avoidance patterns. You could tell if anything lines up with denial or low self-esteem. Even if he is not codependant, I think the avoidance part of it describes what I know of your husband well.

I think what might have happened is he married you and then after gaining the prize realized he had to keep you away from who is "really" is and not allow you to hurt him. You would not be the first story I've read were a spouse immediately put up defenses when married so they can't get hurt. These defenses simply destroy the marriage and hurt everyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency
 
I avoid emotional, physical, or sexual intimacy as a means of maintaining distance.
I allow my addictions to people, places, and things to distract me from achieving intimacy in relationships.
I use indirect and evasive communication to avoid conflict or confrontation.
I diminish my capacity to have healthy relationships by declining to use all the tools of recovery.
I suppress my feelings or needs to avoid feeling vulnerable.
I pull people toward me, but when they get close, I push them away.
I refuse to give up my self-will to avoid surrendering to a power that is greater than myself.
I believe displays of emotion are a sign of weakness.
I withhold expressions of appreciation.

[anx]

He at least has felt the holy spirit. There is still hope.

It very likely might take you leaving and tell him to read the same book you are before he contacts you again. Months or years alone can crack his heart. Especially if he were to lose custody of his son at the same time. What you said about the dark raincloud I think is correct. He can blame it all on you especially when you are near. Could your rent a room from someone at church or just anyone? The woman who divorced her husband and was shunned?

You may have to save this man twice. The first one didn't stick. It not any fun from a human perspective to go through 14 years of garbage for his soul, but it is worth it.

 http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/60-31
I listened to this last night and I suggest it to you. Until you find a way out, it is perhaps your best chance, but an unbelievable challenge. I'm not sure what you should do, but give it a listen and see what you think.

I also sent you a pm of a story similar to yours where the husband started treating her like garbage right after the deal was sealed.

Blessings and prayers.

[anx]

I would ask him directly. He didn't take it as a serious question it doesn't sound like. Ask him directly to ggo to counseling with you and get an actual yes or no. If he skirts the issue again like that, ask directly for a yes or no.

Start with individual if you want though. Many people do.

[laura22]

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE POST? ... I CAN'T FIND MY POST EITHER??

[anx]

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/christian-marriage-forum/marriage-unhappiness/

Were they part of this somehow? When these forum servers get busy it can sometimes take a few tries or a long wait until something actually posts. I usually double check to make sure my stuff actually posts when things are slow.

[DaveW]

I have not waded thru the 4 pages of replies and suggestions. So I am posting blind.

Your husband needs to be brought into account. If he claims to be a christian, he needs to listen to his pastor.

Heb 13. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

He is acting like an unbeliever according to what Paul wrote:

1 Tim 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

There is a site (do not know if you have been there or not) www.themarriagebed.com
On their home page there is a button for articles, You need to read and print out 2 for him on "Sexual Stewardship." They are commentary on 1 Cor 7.



BTW, the sexual attitude of Jesus, Paul et al, indeed all Jews from then till now is this:

"Sex is a wife's right and a husbands duty."

In the first century it was written in the marriage contracts how often the husband was to satisfy his wife (NOT the other way around) That got codified in the Mishnah (published circa 200 ad) frequency was based on occupation and if a wife thought she needed more than what was stipulated, she could take her husband to court to force him to change jobs into one that had a higher frequency. 

If he was independantly wealty or had a job that required little physical strain - it was EVERY DAY.

[anx]

When I initially came on this site, I was looking for other people who were in a similar situation. I wanted to get their feedback as to how it affected them and how they managed to deal with the day-to-day. But I've never really received that kind of feedback. Instead, I have gotten many responses telling me what I need to do to 'fix' my husband and my situation.

Day-to-day there isn't much you can do besides manage. Totally turning off all influences that don't lift your spirits, being deeply involved in a great christian fellowship, and a large amount of time reading the bible will help, but your situation will drag you down. It will never be great with your marriage in this spot. I'm in a really good spot in my own story, but I am still lonely, sad at the state of my marriage, and struggling to stay Godly in the face of a desire for physical contact and intimacy. That I don't expect to go away ever.
Proverbs 16:26
The appetite of laborers works for them; their hunger drives them on.

Plainly, in your current situation, there is little you can do. If you are unwilling to change your marriage and don't have an "out",the only things that could help are a HUGE focus on God or finding a new church. Both of those will help, but not fix anything.

I think that many people assume that there is something positive to be rekindled if my husband would get his act together, but that isn't true. Our marriage did not start out good and then slowly turn bad. It has been bad since the honeymoon 14 years ago. By bad, I mean the absence of love, passion, intimacy, etc. As I've written previously, my husband changed the day we got married and - to this day - can't explain why. But I got pregnant right away, and we stayed together to try to do the right thing by our child.

Going before our church would not help our situation. It would only make my husband not want to go back and that would have negative repercussions on my son.

I think God's desire for your marriage is that your husband would repent of his sin and for an actually happy marriage. Divorce is talked about radically in the bible (Mathew 19, 1 corinthians 7). It is VERY different than the worlds view. Despite your entire marriage being poor, you did marry him for a reason. There used to be at least something there despite there not being anything there for many many years.

He definitely isn't interested in changing right now. If you aren't interested in changing it either, there isn't any hope for it. Nothing will change for 5 years till you can move out, but even then you'll potentially struggle and face a chance at homelessness. All you can do is wait, but you've said that door have been shut for you many times.

Without shaking this up (going before church and whatever else), all you can do is remain stuck. You don't KNOW his reaction or that of your church. You can't. Currently, you are making that decision for him without placing it before him. If you want I can find and link you many stories were people "woke up" after many years. SO VERY OFTEN, its when the woman walks out or is ready to. I still think there is a good chance something will happen in him when that happens.

Also, I still think you NEED to change churches, go before the church, or somehow shake things up. Without that all you can do is continue to wait and be very sad.

My only solution is get a divorce. I have accepted that, but every time I try to work it out, something happens and a door is closed. Some people say that I'm just whining, that I'm making excuses and I just want sympathy. I don't believe that is true, I'm just laying out the facts.

You do have other choices. Go to the church with this, change churches and go before that church, shake things up.

It's things like this that throw me into despair and tears. It just seems like I'm moving backwards no matter how hard I try. I want to trust God, but it's getting harder and I just don't understand.

Mathew 18:15-20
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

This is pretty clear and strait from Jesus. Start there. I think it would be wrong to ignore a clear direction from Jesus. I certainly have talked to my pastor about my marriage. I think its pure silliness not to. If you don't think that your pastor will be at all helpful in a matter so clearly connected to faith, why is he still your pastor? If its really SO BAD that your pastor won't support and help your marriage, get into a new church and a new youth group for your son. You aren't doing any favors to anybody by continuing this. Your son being in a good youth group at this point isn't worth your total unhappiness. You may find an even better youth group.

What should have happened YEARS ago is going to your pastor and to the church about this. If your husband is living unrepentant sin, expose it and let God work from there. Hiding it only continues that sin and hurt.

I am not sure you will get an out. Your will to end your marriage and separate may not be something God will ever open a door to you. I think God's will may be for your husband to repent and your marriage to stay intact. I would have a hard time justifying anything else biblically. I think until this is brought before the church and exposed like you should have more than decade ago, you will continue to be stuck. Frankly, from an outside perspective, 50% of the reason you are stuck seems to be from your actions. You are absolutely not powerless in this. You have chosen to take all the tools that you need to fix this and are told to biblically and put them off limits. Follow the command of Jesus to bring this before the church and trust God from there. Go against the command of Jesus and will for a divorce, and you may never receive an out from God.

I would finally suggest to read job 38-42, and all of job is a good read in your situation. We simply cannot question the will of God or think our own plans greater than his. If it is his will for you to be in this marriage, no amount of prayer to the opposite will change that and no prayer for an out will get an answer. If his sovereign plan is to redemption your husband and restore your marriage, submit to that. That may take years and continue to be difficult. Biblically, the path you need to take first to be right with God is clear to me. Talk to your pastor and go before the church. If the church does the right thing and clearly tells your husband that he is in the mist of unrepentant sin, then he can choose to change his ways or be kicked out. If you husband chooses then to leave the faith and separate from you (or demand you leave), then your standing biblically is far different. Put another way, choosing to not go to your church with this and shake this up is choosing to continue in your current path of sadness. Put this before your husband and your church.

[anx]

I would say that although he hasn't honored your marriage, but I'm wouldn't assume if God thinks you divorced.

I have a very hard time reading mathew 19 and 1 corinthains 7 (39 in particular) and come to the conclusion that you are biblically divorced. Your husband has abandoned you emotionally.

You've said before what happened to the other woman in your church. However, be 100% aware that that is blocking you from acting on this. Your recourse SHOULD BE going before the pastor and church. Jesus said it should be. I cannot read your story and the verses and come to another conclusion. You are assuming what is going to happen both from your church and him. Even to the point of moving out he wouldn't care. I know you believe that and have for a long time. At this point how is it any worse to go before the church? What changes?

I really believe you have to change churches and go before that or go before the one you are in.

I think the only door that will open may be after you husband actually makes a choice before the pastor, church, etc one way or the other. If he reconnects and repents and chooses to become a new man, that's great. If he leaves the church and wants to separate, THEN you'll be biblicaly free. You need to force that decision first.

I think that is the choice you have been unwilling to make, and until that happens, your stuck. Give your husband and your church the chance to make their choices.
I cannot feel right in suggesting anything else.

[drspinko]

But I have a child who is an innocent in all this. He is extensively involved in church and especially the youth group. To take a chance on him suffering the repercussions of our actions is a risk that I just cannot take. My child has done nothing wrong and he doesn't deserve that to happen to him.

 My husband agrees with me in that it would end exactly as I predicted. My husband would stop going to church and my son's involvement there would be tarnished forever which is definitely something a young teen does not need at this point in his life.

If this is the case, how is getting a divorce going to be better for your son's reputation and involvement in his youth group than if you confronted the situation as Jesus told you to?

I mean, will your church look more favorably on you getting a sudden divorce than if you had taken this matter to them first? That doesn't make sense. If your primary goal is to keep your son's reputation from being tarnished, than your only choice is to keep doing what you have been doing, and that is "suffering silently".

But that means that you will have to continue to refuse to confront the situation Biblically. Do you realize that you have already passed judgment against your church leaders by deciding what they are going to do before giving them a chance to do the right thing? Maybe they have handled this type of thing poorly in the past, at least from your perspective. Or maybe you have decided that they did because you heard one sad side of the story, without getting all of the facts?

I really don't know and neither do you. All I know is what Jesus told us to do when a brother is sinning against us. And He did not qualify His command by giving us an out if we think our church leaders won't do the right thing. He also didn't guarantee that they would. He just told us to do it.

And since He loves us more than anyone else, doesn't it make sense to just do what He says in these hard situations instead of trying to do it our way?

[drspinko]

I think one of the obstacles you have in taking this matter to your church leaders is that you have no faith in them to make this matter right. You have seen what they did in the past and you think you know what they will do in your situation. You may be right, you may be wrong. But...it doesn't really matter!

What if you simply did it out of obedience to Jesus? In doing so you would be saying, "Lord, You see my desperation and pain. I see no way to fix it. I do not trust my church leaders to help me. But I do trust in You! Therefore I will follow your command to take my husband's sin to them. They may not help me at all. They may even turn against me. But I will trust in You to somehow save me out of this mess!"

So what you would be doing is putting your faith in God to help you by obeying His word no matter what, even if it might cost you or your son your reputation in the eyes of your church. Since God loves us and knows what's best for us, that is a much better option than trusting in your own plans isn't it? And then you never know what He will do. He may part the Red Sea, or He may lead you into the wilderness. You never know. But the outcome of it, if you put your trust in Him by your actions, is that you (and your son) will be richly rewarded by God in the long run!

But if you insist on doing things your way, you are opening yourself, and your son, to a lot of unintended consequences in the future that you have no way of seeing now.

[tallat]

A few days ago, I deleted all my posts from this thread except for the first one which I just reworded. I had no intention of writing on here again, but finally just couldn't stand it, so I had to respond to some of the final posts that were written on here. I'm not going to quote them, but they are the previous posts prior to this one.

I have given a lot of thought to the Matthew 18 passage and the whole concept of church discipline. I have also talked to several people over the past few days. These people are those who are from my church, and also people who I know are living the type of marriage that I am in. Of everyone I've talked to, the input is the same....it would do no good to go before the church with this issue. It would only result in humiliation initially, and the long-term fallout would be devastating.

This has nothing to do with faith in God or doubting God's Word. It has everything to do with the elements that create a loveless, sexless marriage.

In one of my previous posts, I wrote that my husband is living in unrepentant sin. Now, I am not so sure those words are accurate. Granted, to deny one's spouse sexually is sin. However, in my husband's case, he is not doing it intentionally and with the desire to hurt me. He is doing it because he is not able to give of himself in a way that is intimate or emotional. Also, he doesn't love me and therefore doesn't want me. That is a painful fact, but it's reality.

To go before the church would not fix this. My husband can't be forced to love me. And even if he agreed to finally have obligational sex, who wants that? Certainly not me. Sex without the true emotional connection is meaningless to me.

My husband has deep-seeded emotional issues that he can't fix and doesn't want to get help with. Church discipline isn't going to fix that. No amount of accountability is going to force my husband to love me, or to make him want to get psychological help. Only my husband can do that for himself.

Right now, my husband goes to church weekly and is at least being fed in the form of a biblical sermon each week. My son is thriving in the youth group and is growing spiritually and as a leader. As I've mentioned before, to bring this issue before the pastoral staff would not only be pointless, but it would also do irreversible damage to both my husband and my son.

There is nothing about this that calls for church discipline. It isn't like my husband fell into an affair, or pornography, or drinking, or drugs, or something of that nature. These types of things can be helped with intervention and accountability. But my husband's issues - which result in his actions - need professional help in the form of a counselor. Until he chooses to get that help, nothing else is going to change where his actions, or lack thereof, are concerned.

[tallat]

I recently found out that my job will go full-time around the first of the year. It's been a long time coming, but there's light at the end of the tunnel...finally.

[tallat]

A few nights ago, my son asked me if he could ask me a question and if I would be honest with him. Of course, I said yes. He then asked me if it wasn't for him, if his dad and I would be divorced by now.

My spouse and I have never argued or degraded each other in our entire marriage. So my son isn't asking this because he hears threats, or hurtful comments, or anything negative like that.

No, he's asking because he's getting older and is realizing that his parents aren't normal and the usual positive elements of a healthy relationship are not there. He sees that we're sad and unhappy even though we don't talk about it.

To know that my son is having these types of thoughts and is now beginning to piece together the big picture....the one that we've tried so hard to hide....is just heartbreaking to me.

[anx]

I really do hope something good comes out of your story. Everyone is sad and things aren't working right. Long term stuck in a rut / sin / unhealthy emotional issues are so hard to read and I'm sure terrible to live through.

Keep trying to do what's right for the sake of it being right. At least you guys have a stable life without argueing for your son to grow up in despite any other issue. And a church to at least call home and your son to grow up in despite any other issues with it. He didn't ask for any issues and i commend you for looking out for him.

Blessings