Marriage Relationships, Love and... that's it

[janine]

 ;)

I'm a little bit puzzled.

Maybe you could vote - and post?  If you have an opinion, I mean, re: this particular section of the GCM Forums?

[david johnson]

leave it as it is.  trust the moderator.

dj

[gbShorty]

If the discussion is inappropriate to even one of us, shouldn't it be deleted?  Is the discussion worth more than relationships here?   Is that what the Bible teaches?

I think, however unintentional, such discussion can lead to sin.  A type of talk sex, which is sin (when done outside marriage).  However, fun it seems to be.  Satan always disguises sin as fun or harmless.  

Remember when someone posing as "Satan" used to post?  It was somewhat amusing but just didn't fit with a Christian board.    

Everyone loves your wit, Janine.  You are creative enough to channel it some other way.  I pray that I haven't offended you.
Your sister, Shorty

P.S.  I question the wisdom of a secret or private sex talk forum being endorsed by this board.  Lee, please think this through and pray about this.

[Bocephus]

I guess we can't even discuss the Song of Songs on this board in any facet.  Its much too sexual.  At least that is what I get from most.

Kids are told mostly that sex is bad.  They don't hear positive things about sex, they don't get the whole picture.  Then when some of them disregard their parents warnings, they tell their friends that their parents lied because sex was fun.

Kids need to hear the whole story.  Not just that sex can give you diseases and cause pregnancy.

[Arkstfan]

I do believe it is vital that Christians be able to ask these questions however, I have some concerns.

1. Without age verification present, I believe it is unwise to have a frank discussion of sex in an area that can be accessed by minors.

2. A number of Christians (and others) use Internet filtering software that flags domains based on textual clues to deny access. Open discussions that trigger that software will deny access to the site for those people. At least one filtering set-up that is marketed HEAVILY to Christians through Christian radio and publications touts the fact that it has no over-ride function to allow access to a denied site.

[Emily]

I guess the main "red flag" for me is that the deleted topic (and actually a few of the ones describing things to spice up your sex life) caused me embarrassment, which is just an uncomfortable thing to experience on a Christian message board. Maybe that is just my lack of "openness" or maybe it is just "my problem", I don't know. It just seems weird to be talking about various sexual preferences in a Christian group of mixed men and women.  

I usually like to gauge what I discuss by asking myself the question "Would I be uncomfortable talking about this with brothers and sisters in my "care group" at church (since that is the closest thing to a forum type atmosphere I can think of)?" If I would be uncomfortable doing that, then something is wrong (in my opinion) with engaging in that discussion.  The GCM forum is kind of a virtual "care group", and the recently deleted discussion on oral sex is a topic I would be very uncomfortable talking about even in the ladies group, much less a care group with both sexes present.

If some aspect of sexuality is truly a problem between a couple, then a message forum probably will not help. The couple or even the individual should perhaps seek personal counseling from a marriage and family counselor or expert in dealing with those issues. I agree with Shorty that discussing such things in a forum where we do not know the backgrounds of all the posters (or lurkers) can lead to problems. I also question the idea of a private forum as I think it sends a wrong message...like we are hiding something.  

I do not think sexuality is an embarrassing issue when discussed privately.  I am not from the Victorian era. I was even a hippie in the late 60s and early 70s for Pete's sake! I just think that GCM should stick with topics that address what the "About GCM" statement says on the first page of this website, that is, "...GCM is a daily publication dedicated to stimulating personal and public thought, prayer, and discussion about  living the Christian life."  I just do not see such things as discussions regarding our sexual preferences as falling in that category. Just my opinion, of course.
Em

[boringoldguy]

I have to concur with Emily.

Some topics, while not in any sense shameful or "dirty", are intimate and need to remain that way.

In our highly sexualized society, I think one of the ways Christians can stand out is by the respect we show for this gift.

And that doesn't mean we can't discuss the Song of Songs.

[segell]

I think it a healthy approach to discuss sexual issues in marriage - not a how-to manual.  But sex is a wonderful and extraordinary gift of God.  

Some of us might use the help of healthy attitudes and encouragements.  Some of us have misunderstandings and could us some loving help.  But, again, not a how-to or whoo-hoo kind of exchange.

Furthermore, this could also be a place where issues of sexual addiction and other dangers to marriage and marital relationships could be discussed.  There is an epidemic facing the Christian community arising out of the dysfunction of co-dependency and addictive behaviors.  If these can't be discussed here, where then?

Steve

[Emily]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I think it a healthy approach to discuss sexual issues in marriage - not a how-to manual.  But sex is a wonderful and extraordinary gift of God.  

Some of us might use the help of healthy attitudes and encouragements.  Some of us have misunderstandings and could us some loving help.  But, again, not a how-to or whoo-hoo kind of exchange.

Furthermore, this could also be a place where issues of sexual addiction and other dangers to marriage and marital relationships could be discussed.  There is an epidemic facing the Christian community arising out of the dysfunction of co-dependency and addictive behaviors.  If these can't be discussed here, where then?

Steve[/quote]
Steve,
Just one other thought before I leave this topic and head off for something else.  I agree with you in that there are some things pertaining to sexuality that need to be discussed...such as sexual addictions and ways a person can be freed from that.  Many Christians have been caught up in pornography, and it is not an isolated incident here and there.  It is a very real problem for both men and women.

We are bombarded with sexual images and temptations on every side from television, internet, music, videos, movies, the mall, etc. Just this week I was looking for a certain diet website, and instead a graphic porn website came up because I had accidentally left out a word when doing the search. I quickly clicked off, but the images were left in my mind. Somehow sexual and violent images seem to ingrain themselves in one's mind quicker than anything else.  I honestly believe that these things are demonic and attach themselves to us spiritually and mentally in the sometimes few seconds it takes to view a picture. Anyway, my point is that things like this should be discussed among Christians and brothers and sisters who can help us.

On the other hand, there is a difference in discussing and getting help from other Christians with these kind of problems and discussing sexual perferences and personal details that should only be between husband and wife.  I think such posts can possibly lead to impure thoughts regardless of how innocent they may be.  I know I must sound like the "little old lady with her hair in a bun shaking her stick at those rowdy neighborhood kids".  I don't mean to make this a judgmental thing...I know all the posts have had the best intentions. It is just a personal observation on my part, and of course, I may be wrong.
Em

[kmv]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]If the discussion is inappropriate to even one of us, shouldn't it be deleted?  Is the discussion worth more than relationships here?   Is that what the Bible teaches?[/quote]

I would imagine a frank discussion of sex to be much less destructive, to adults and children alike, than many of the discussions on the 'politics' board.  Of course, that's a whole different discussion.

I would also think that the same two changes that could save the politics section could also allow a 'marriage, love & sexuality' section to work:

1) Active moderation by moderators who understand and take seriously their responsibilities.

2) Grownup behavior by the rest of us.

On the otherhand, the ugliness of some of the personal attacks makes me think that only a crazy person would actually engage in an open or honest discussion of the topic.

As to the problem of minors finding out too much info, please!  The average twelve-year-old could find out much more from mainstream internet sources (news magazines like Time, CNN, network news bulletin boards), prime time television (Will & Grace, Friends, According to Jim, any of the reality shows, - The Learning Channel had a special on the Inter-gendered last month!), paperback novels, the kid that sits behind him on the bus, the tabliod magazine covers at the supermarket, the preacher's kid, big brother, kids talking in the mall, ANYWHERE!

I don't understand why Christians gave God's beautiful gift of sexual intimacy over to the skeeze-mongers anyway.  

Yes, those discussions can become prurient, but they don't have to.  Perhaps the forum would need some special guidelines to prevent that?

Personally, I think a forum like Beliefnet does a reasonable job of presenting a forum for grown up discussion of any kind of spiritual matter.  How do they do it?  (quality moderation is my guess).

[gbShorty]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote (JerryBrooke @ Dec. 29 2003,09:17)[/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I guess we can't even discuss the Song of Songs on this board in any facet.  Its much too sexual.  At least that is what I get from most.

Kids are told mostly that sex is bad.  They don't hear positive things about sex, they don't get the whole picture.  Then when some of them disregard their parents warnings, they tell their friends that their parents lied because sex was fun.

Kids need to hear the whole story.  Not just that sex can give you diseases and cause pregnancy.[/quote]
Call me old fashioned but my kids won't be hearing about sex from strangers on the internet.  The perpretrators would better hope the FBI finds them before the family does.  It would be much safer for kids to hear about sex from parents, friends or just about anyone other than a mostly unknown person on the internet.   Frankly, I'm shocked.  There's a fine line between edification and titilation and I think it's too easily crossed, and at what price?    Its bad enough if you only consider adults being involved.  But, aren't there laws against adults having sexual conversations with minors on the internet?   Why would anyone take a chance (morally or legally) that the person they might be conversing with could be a minor?

[Bocephus]

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Call me old fashioned but my kids won't be hearing about sex from strangers on the internet.  The perpretrators would better hope the FBI finds them before the family does.  It would be much safer for kids to hear about sex from parents, friends or just about anyone other than a mostly unknown person on the internet.   Frankly, I'm shocked.  There's a fine line between edification and titilation and I think it's too easily crossed, and at what price?    Its bad enough if you only consider adults being involved.  But, aren't there laws against adults having sexual conversations with minors on the internet?   Why would anyone take a chance (morally or legally) that the person they might be conversing with could be a minor?[/quote]

I don't know where you are getting this.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about specifics of sex.  Just that sometimes we Christians are such prudes that we don't talk to children about sex at all, unless it is to give the impression that it is entirely bad.

And to tell you from someone who is not too far removed from high school, most 4th & 5th graders (in public school) know more about sex than than you really think.

[gbShorty]

I'm glad that you clarified your position.  Hope you understand mine.

[WileyClarkson]

Hey Em,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] I do not think sexuality is an embarrassing issue when discussed privately.  I am not from the Victorian era. I was even a hippie in the late 60s and early 70s for Pete's sake! [/quote]

You too--huh!  I guess we are giving away our ages by saying that! :doh: Maybe we need a grandma and grandpa smilies for some of us!!!


to everyone,

I haven't voted an opinion because the answers just don't totally reflect my views.  I have been in private conversation with Lee and several moderators about this and removing the offending discussion was the solution arrived at.  That doesn't mean we cannot discuss the Song of Songs or how to help people who suffer from sex related problems.  A support related column is well within the scope here.  We probably all suffer from one form of addiction or another that is ongoing.  Sex, in all the many bad forms that it can present itself, is just another form of addiction.  I know that from personal experience and it is a constant battle for those who suffer with this form of addiction when it is thrown into your face every where you go every day of the week in our society.  Addictions never go away-- they are just controlled day by day.  Sex in its proper setting  can be something that is so beautiful that it is hard to put into words, just like alcohol in moderation can be very beneficial or some of the drugs that are illegally abused everyday have tremendous medicinal benifits, or a game with a little penny wagering between friends can provide alot of stress relief from the intense stress of the age we live in and fellowship between friends.  

What if someone in that sex discussion had said something that related to a sex technique that another reader had not heard about before or was not really knowledgable about?  If the reader took that technique to Google and did a search to learn what it was about, that reader would end up in endless pornographic sites (and a few that were more "educational" in the sense of formal sex education style).  This person now starts going through the sites looking for the answer they want but at the same time they are getting a very unhealthy dose of hard core porn.  Descriptions on Google do not always reflect what a site is about because of web site referral, auto page redirecting, pop-ups, desceptive description lines used by the site owner, use of cookies to allow tracking of sites off a person's computer, and to allow the pop-ups to continue, etc.  Now, add to that the fact that unless the owner of the computer is very computer savy and knows how to clean all the little dark corners that Windows/IE  buries files, cookies, history, email, deleted email, deleted files, active-X files, etc, the chances are fairly good that someone else could come in to use the computer and find these files or inadvertantly get linked into something they didn't want to see.  Now what if that person wasn't a Christian but thinks that their Christian friend would never do porn and then finds out otherwise? The search for that knowledge has now exposed two people to the world of porn, even thought the search was innocent to begin with.

As Arkstfan has pointed out,

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--] A number of Christians (and others) use Internet filtering software that flags domains based on textual clues to deny access[/quote].

There is also the possibility that this site could be picked up and blocked for sexual content.  A good example of this is a search I did a couple of weeks ago which picked up the "New Wineskins" web site.  I've forgotten what I searched on now but I use Norton Internet Security 2003 because of its large list of blocked sites that is actively maintained by Norton.  When I clicked on the Google search result, I received a "site blocked" message from Norton.  That was a surprise!  I don't know why it was blocked specifically because my software is set to a large number of reasons, but I suspect it fell under the drugs related blocking and picked up on the name.  I had to send an email to Norton about this to try to get them to remove the site from the block list.

The above reasoning is why a strongly urged Lee to remove that discussion and to limit this particular area.  I suggested a private moderator's forum (so named) that had strict controlls on who could access it with absolute ID of posters required.  Most boards of this type usually have a moderator's posting area that is private.  However, to just call it a sex talk forum that is private would cause bad 1st impressions and we all know that 1st impressions are the ones that last the longest and are the hardest to overcome.  So, ISTM that if someone wants to have those discussions, it would be better to do it by privately by email/pm.

[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]I would imagine a frank discussion of sex to be much less destructive, to adults and children alike, than many of the discussions on the 'politics' board.  Of course, that's a whole different discussion.
[/quote]

Well, not really a different discussion.  Just another facitt of this one.  That has also been brought up in discussion with Lee while discussing the sex column.  Before chatting with Lee about the political area, I was in favor of removing the whole political area.  However, I can appreciate his reasoning as to why he has it.  He wants to try to keep politics separate from the other areas on the board, especially theology.  I agree with that reasoning.  It does, however, need stronger moderation in order to stop some of the hurt that political discussion can cause/has caused.  It is hard to separate politics and religion any more because of the present laws and how they effect Christians and not other religons.  That, in itself, for some of our members who are more political in nature (Lee being one of them IMO :0 ) seems to almost require a place to vent and discuss what's going on around them.  One thing that I would like to point out to everyone is that we are picking up more and more international members who do not understand our political processes, thoughts, etc, so that must be taken into consideration when posting there (or anywhere else for that matter).

These are my thoughts.  While I was typing this, I got in trouble for not waking my wife up to go to work.  I'm on vacation today (last day off this year!).  It seems that when the alarm clock went off at 03:45, I got up and came downstairs to make my coffee and enjoy my morning computer time.  She went back to sleep.  Since I'm not normally awake when she gets up (I get home around 0001 hrs normally and get in bed about 0030), it didn't occur to me that I needed to wake her up this morning because she went back to sleep! :doh:  :help:

[janine]

My tongue-in-cheek poll has gotten for me the sort of response I wanted with the question of oral sex & the Christian in the first place:  some discussion!  Something more than stiff shocked "let's not discuss it" anyway.

******************************************************************************************
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As I see the tide rolling so far, these are some concerns:

#1  We ought not to have inappropriate content here on these boards.  If it's inappropriate/hurtful to any member we ought to consider chucking it.

#2  Use of restricted forums for sensitive topics is worrisome because it looks secretive?  Because folks on it might talk about sex or other taboo topics?

#3  We need to be able to discuss a well-rounded Christian view of sex, neither ignoring it nor dwelling on the negative.

#4  Concerns about a need for age verification if we're going to talk frankly about stuff but also concerns about how this stuff might trigger blocks & deny people this site.

#5  Embarassment

#6  Discussion on Living the Christian Life does not include sexual preferences, nor discussion of practices, apparently.

#7  We need a male-only and a female-only private forum, please Lee.

#8  We can certainly discuss the Song of Songs - but anything sexual in it needs to be respected and treated as intimate and I guess not discussed?

#9  Good to discuss sex addictions, sexual issues w/in marriage, as long as it doesn't get "whoo-hoo".

#10  Somehow, the idea of help and fellowship and Christian support re: sexual sin, addictions, marriage bed worries, whatever, is a good idea- but only if said discussions can be accomplished without anyone getting an impure thought from it.

#11  Minors savvy enough to get to this forum already know pretty much anything we'd discuss here - if anything, our discussions would be accurate, lol, compared to some of the kids' sources  -  but the only way we could do it successfully would be to come up with someone capable of quality moderating.

12#  Moderators sometimes discuss things not openly with the general population of members & visitors, but privately.  Secretly?

13#  We need to feel responsible if someone reads something in our discussions here, and goes a-Googling, and runs through connection after connection, and accidentally ends up on a porn site.  Or if he sees on our home computer that we did the same.

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So... correct me if I misunderstood anything.