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[seekr]

Clifty..[!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]Condoning your husbands behaviour is the same as giving him a death sentence. [/quote]

I am sorry, but I think that statement is way out of line. What it does is bring fear to the person and does no good. Lust cannot be bandaged. Let's suppose this husband stops looking at porn and so he buries it deep inside only to have it emerge eons later. During the time he quits is he now okay? Who created us with those desires? Who has come to set us free? Stopping something by coercion (sp)or fear, is not going to help. "It is not what enters into a man that makes him unclean". The porn is not the problem. If this man shows love and is not being beat up by those who think they have the cure, then wait on God no matter how long it takes. It is God that delivers. I struggled myself with this for ahwile and now it has no hold on me and I am free.  Sin is not counted as sin anymore BECAUSE of freedom and because of a clean heart, which has nothing to do with me being "good".

seekr

[TomDart]

Dear Twiglet and all others, Brothers and Sisters,

First of all, thanks for some open forum like this. I suspect we can discuss these things in a manner to help, assist and explore some what happens in everyday lives, relationships and marriages.

Twiglet, as sterile and straight forward as this post is, please know my heart is with you and yours. My prayer tonight includes you, for sure.  I use drivetime to work to pray, too. You will be there.  God Bless in a special healing way all involved!

I haven’t read every message in this thread.  My response is directed to the part on pornography,  repeating perhaps what others have said already.  Well, here are some thoughts from a man’s point of view.

First of all, we simply cannot generalize and assume most men are driven by some special “dumb brains” below their belly button. And, we cannot generalize that this is a “men only” problem because it certainly is not limited to one gender.  What we can say in total truth is that viewing and physically acting in response to porn is very, very addictive.  There is not a simple answer.

This is a world where the spouse of the one who “sneaks in some porn” when alone is a victim in some ways.  In most ways, I dare say the spouse is not the victim but the one going to the porn is the real victim.   Porn lives in a world of imagination and fantasy, used for a few moments of…well, use.  The images are generally not of real life events seen in everyday healthy sexual living.   The porn image depicts fantasy.  Sure, these things happen and can happen in a totally good marriage relationship but the difference is at least in part, distance from the subject.   The subject of the attraction is compliant, willing for whatever, eager to please and on and on.  The subject is available anytime and ready anytime…that is how fantasy works.  This is not real life.

One of the real problems is that such images are hard to get rid of.  These things stick in the mind like poison.  The door for these demons is opened and it takes a long time for the images to go away. Once the thought of sexual satisfaction enters the thought process, the porn images have a sneaky way of jumping right in to “spice things up a bit”, unfortunate but true.

The fantasy porn partner is there for what reason?  Each person involved in porn must ask that question.   That is key.

A person cannot just “put down the porn” and it is gone.  As I said, this is addictive stuff and the images linger.

I knew a minister who when on a trip by himself, would ask the desk clerk to turn off any access to pornographic movies to his room. Why did he ask that? He knew he was subject to the temptation and wanted to put a block between the source and his temptation.  I applaud him for being so open about it!

One of the most simple and effective means of getting rid of Internet visits to porn sites is restricted search engines. Of course, these can be circumvented with a click of the mouse.   So, next comes the idea of “what to do with all the cookies the porn sites have dumped into the computer?”  What to do with the images in temp files you can’t even find to delete?”    These things are there.  The fear of stored information is one pragmatic approach to keeping fantasy fingers from going to porn sites or searching for pornographic images on the net.

As for the reasons one seeks porn…anyone of you can answer that as well as I can. I don’t know a general answer.  Sometimes is comes up by accident and a peek is taken and then the addiction or fantasy to look again occurs.   Mostly, it is not accidental at all but curiosity at first(having heard about this stuff on the net) or deliberate search for porn sites.

The answer?  Self discipline is one.  I cannot evaluate one single other persons reasons, marriage happiness or disappointment, any of those things.  I suggest a lot of prayer and deep thinking…even as deep as What Would Jesus Do implanted in the heart. A simple prayer by the person involved who really doesn’t want to be…might be, “Dear God, please put a reminder in my heart.  Please remind me that you are watching, wanting me to be an example for you.  Anytime I think of going to pornography, please remind me so I can make the decision to stay away from it! God help in this!”

Today, the overtly open sexuality and sexual activity of teenagers to adults simply surprises me.  Sure, overtly open is almost redundant but that is how it appears to be.  I don’t know if there is more ungodly sexual activity than in other years, not really. What I have seen is the openness of the idea and the treating of sex by men and women as a game and something “accepted” in everyday speech.  Such offends me greatly, as it offends God.  But, the openness is shocking.  

Well, enough said for now.  The affects of porn on the addicted one are even more frightening in their personal relationships.  False images are there of what women are, of what men are and their expectations and personal desires and rights. That is perhaps one of the most devastating after effects of pornography.

Sorry, too long and too little of substance said.  This topic just gets my thoughts going. I once worked in the same room of two men who talked about this stuff almost everyday, the digital stations they went to(illegally) and the things that happened on these porn tv broadcasts.  It got really sick and a sickness was seen in them as a true addiction.

God Bless.        TomDart.

[TomDart]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I tried to edit my most recent post but "the site" told me I did not have permission to do that. I wanted to take out some of the stuff and put in more LOVE, more prayer, more encouragement to Twiglet. That is the true focus and in the last post I made, well, I got to opinionating from stuff I have read, seen, etc.  One thing does strike me as important, I think this is from Band of Angels:

 [!--QuoteBegin--][/span][table border=\"0\" align=\"center\" width=\"95%\" cellpadding=\"3\" cellspacing=\"1\"][tr][td]Quote [/td][/tr][tr][td id=\"QUOTE\"][!--QuoteEBegin--]However, sometimes as you also say, the husband (or wife) just comes across porn on the internet and the problem takes off from there without the fault of anyone else.
[/quote]

This is very, very true.  Sure, when I first got on the internet and got Google, I did an image search.  The results told me that the internet is truly full of pornography and it is much, much more explicit than expected. This sickened me. Yet, at the same time, I did want to go back and look again! Sad! True! Temptations are there and it really takes discipline to avoid it.  It is too, too easy.  

I got scared to think that someone would think this is what I do, which I do not, spent a lot of time deleting every cookie, etc.  I simply do not go there...it is a temptation and a temptation some are more prone to go back to than others. I was able to escape it, with the prayer for "God, remind me to not do this."   Demons are always ready to lead us to more temptation.

I have a coworker who plays video games. Now, these are not pornographic at all(example, Star Wars Gallaxy, paid for monthy to play the game) but the addiction is very similar.  When the games are interactive, on the net with others playing, they tell me there is a rush of euphoria, an excitement to it. This is addictive. They tell me it is!! I believe them.  The pornography sites are not much different in the effect, I would suspect.

So, I do pray for anyone who finds unnatural euphoria on the net. I do pray for you, Twiglet and specially for your guy.

 The addictive fantasy is one very difficult to put down...whether a "safe" video game or one that leads to thoughts which are very unGodly and can truly affect relationships.   I do pray. That is the main point. I pray that God see the reasons why, not blame, the reasons and will bring and end to the problem within freewill, even it that means exposing all that have created it within their hearts! That is a tough prayer. That prayer when answered will mean some adjustment.  God would be pleased with the adjustment? Yes, if more Godliness returns and a better road is found.  Tough stuff.  My heart cries.

God Bless.      TomDart.

[janine]

Keeping in mind all this practical stuff and personal observation Tom has brought up - Maurine has an excellent point.

If we can get the behavior modified, that's nice, but just stopping the behavior does not cleanse one from sin.

[TomDart]

Dear Janine,

I will quote here one of my favorite scriptures and one that is used on one of my email addresses as a "signature":

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12

This so so true! The fight must include all our gospel armor. We sometimes foolishly assume we are wearing that armor. Not so, we must put it ON! And prayer helps a lot in that along with faith in the power of the Spirit to work with God for us.

Still, the sin is not cleansed? Or, from the believing heart is it cleaned or not? But repeated, repeated, forced into the very face of God.  That last part is what frightens me. When we stop something, move on, are cleansed by grace and then fall back.  But to sin with determination to sin( that is what it is when we do the same sinful things time and time again) we are being "in your face" to God. That is frightening and submission to the very core is needed with the help of God to raise us up by our boot straps. No person can do that alone. Help is needed, whether from the Spirit of the Holy One movng strongly to convict and convince, from practical turns around the sinful person as consequences of actions...etc. Help is needed.  Ultimately, help means turning to God in submission and repentence with a prayer for strength to resist the very real demons the evil one has launched against us.  Whatever it takes to get to that point.... that is my prayer.  Might get rough along the way.

The practical "in this world" consequences of sin, including in this particular case the "perceived consequences" such as cookies, computer memories and hidden temp files... these things can bring the effect of "consequences" into the real world and fear.  The fear is justified by the actions. If this brings the person to God, praise God!. If this brings the person to realize the need to back off the sinful stuff...praise God for that!  Too often the "personal sin" seen as simple and unharmful to others is terribly harmful to others and is certainly harmful to the one doing the sin, over and over again.  Something has to hit the heart and say BACK OFF  and get a grip and move on. Be forgiven and move on.  Reaility of the consequences is a good motivator to stop any sinful actions.  Reality that God does forgive is also needed, desperately! Guilt must be relieved and forgiveness by God understood.  A heart in guilt is not a heart able to be active for the good God wants us to do.

These things are deep and can leave deep scars. I do pray that the scars are shallow and the healing complete. Believe me, that is my prayer. As I speak that is my prayer.

 Janine,  Good point you made.

God Bless. Merry Christmas!      TomDart.