Author Topic: Is it okay with God if we.....  (Read 20975 times)

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Offline CDHealy

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #105 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 08:54:23 »
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So far, no case has been successfully made for the practice of contraception.

I did CD, but you chose to ignore it.

I'm not sure, seekr, how this--

People and their regulations. Freedom in Christ means that. If you carry each others burdens you fulfill it all. This is the answer to all the questions. "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Even scripture says it is not about "do's" and "don't's" but about loving others sacrificially. "Everything is permissable"....and in some cases very beneficial.

--is a "successful argument for contraception.

You haven't established that:
1. My argument against contraception in any way contravenes our freedom in Christ (surely we are not free to sin, and if contraception is, as I am arguing, a sin, one is not free to do it--thus you have to demonstrate that contraception is not a sin in light of the argument I have presented)
2. How the permissibility for the practice of contraception is "carrying another's burden"
3. How carrying another's burden "fulfills it all"
4. What "all" is in the phrase "fulfills it all"
5. That my argument against contraception in any way fails to be faith expressing itself in love
6. And that when St. Paul utilizes the Corinthian proverb "everything is permissible" that this includes sin (which, according to my argument, contraception is).  I also note by the way that St. Paul expressly says in that same passage you reference, that not everything is beneficial.

So, no, seekr, you cannot claim that you have presented a successful defense for the practice of contraception.

If you don't get why Jesus came here to deliver us and free us, then pretty much you don't get it at all.

I'm still not clear how it is that this claim that Jesus came to deliver and free us applies to instances of sin.

This sounds very much like antinomianism.

Of course Jesus said we weren't guilty if we were blind, but only were if we claimed to see.

This appears to be some sort of moral judgment leveled against me, but I honestly cannot see what the judgment actually is.

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #105 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 08:54:23 »

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #106 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 08:58:17 »
So is it wrong then to have sex only when you KNOW the woman is not fertile?

Suppose two people marry and intend to enjoy sex like bunnies knowing they will never ever conceive no matter what -- like, maybe the woman was born with no useable uterus or the man has had a vasectomy.

Janine:

At the risk of offending you, please go back and actually read the things I've posted.  You will see that the things you ask here are not relevant to my argument.

If a man and a woman preserve the procreative element of sexual intercourse, they are free to engage in sex during infertile times.  In fact, they are free to have sex whenever they want (subject to spiritual counsel of course), however often they want.  What counts is that a couple not deform the sex act by willfully and intentional excluding the procreative essence of sex.

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #107 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 09:03:34 »
I repeat because you refuse to answer. If it is a sin to waste every ovum, why do you allow your wife to waste any of them?

Bob: please do everyone a favor and quote me where I claimed it is a sin for a woman to waste any/every ovum.  Since you will fail in that, then please have the courtesy to respect the others reading your posts and demonstrate, through rational argument, that my position necessitates a logical conclusion that it is a sin to waste any/every ovum (or sperm for that matter).

This is a straw man, Bob.  It's pretty much all you got, I know, but it's still a straw man.

Healy, you have miserably failed to address the text in context. Projection is a bad trait in you.

You say so, but you have yet to demonstrate successfully that it is the case.  I have addressed the exegetical objections  you have raised and demonstrated the consistency of my argument, and its textual/contextual coherence.  So far you're batting zero here.

The text does not mention any ban on contraception. Reading one into it is speaking for God without licence.

Argumentum ex silencio, your second-favorite fallacy, Bob.  In point of fact, I have demonstrated that the positive norm of procreation is logically and necessarily incompatible with contraception.  Thus, I am not eisegeting anyting into the text at all.

Thanks again, for playing.  Try again.

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #107 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 09:03:34 »

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #108 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 09:06:05 »
You don't have textual support from the creation account because the text is a narrative one providing a theological foundation for the creation.

You don't have textual support from the rest of the Torah because all the passages you would rely on either address property rights, provide for abortion to establish infidelity, or don't count children as human until at least one month old.

You don't have textual support from the NT because all the passage you would rely on either matters of sexual immorality or household codes adapted to reflect Christian faith.

You don't have anything at all to support your opinion except your own confidence in it.

And that remains the ultimate strawman.

When you decide to read the text instead of pontificating on it, let us know.

Bob:

Simply repeating fallacious claims which I have demonstrated are false doesn't advance the argument in any way.

Do yourself and your readers a favor and go back through and address my criticisms of your objections and your own argument (such as it is).  Demonstrate through that your own claims.

Your a lawyer, you surely know how to make arguments and revise your own argument in light of its demonstrated fallacious and weaknesses.

As I've been told, you've even argued before the MO Supreme Court.

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #108 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 09:06:05 »

Offline Kimmie1415

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #109 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 16:50:35 »
Request:

Could we please remember what we are all doing here.  Let's return to etifying Christ and stop trying to prove/disprove each others points...myself included.  Thankyou.  Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #109 on: Fri Mar 31, 2006 - 16:50:35 »



Offline janine

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #110 on: Fri Apr 07, 2006 - 19:09:10 »
Nothing wrong with a little debate, Kimmie.

'Course it soon makes for a contentious flavor that causes many to poass the thread by.

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #110 on: Fri Apr 07, 2006 - 19:09:10 »

BH

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #111 on: Fri Apr 07, 2006 - 23:34:03 »
Your take that the "be fruitful and multiply" is applicable only to Adam and Eve and not to the whole of creation is a decidedly minority opinion, and cannot be adequately defended from the text.

Why?

Because of Genesis 1:22, which precedes Genesis 1:28.

Are you saying that the command to be fruitful and multiply in v 22 is on par with the command in v 28?  They both look to me as blanket-across-the-board commands to breed. I conclude that the commands apply only to the animals then alive and to Adam and Eve because of Paul's counsel to stay single if one is unmarried and able to control oneself.

Just curious, but do you neuter your house pets?

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #112 on: Sat Apr 08, 2006 - 10:44:02 »
Barry:

I am saying that the procreative norm extends to humans and animals.

We do not have house pets.  Unless "rug rats" are house pets--but then again, we have hardwood floors not rugs.

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #113 on: Sun Apr 09, 2006 - 16:40:00 »
So there's a prohibition on spaying and neutering?

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #113 on: Sun Apr 09, 2006 - 16:40:00 »

Offline mllevaleur

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #114 on: Sun Apr 09, 2006 - 19:42:59 »
Wow, what a thread!

Nicely done, CDHealy, I agree with everything you've said  ::smile::

Stephanie - an NFP using Catholic convert

BH

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #115 on: Sun Apr 09, 2006 - 20:30:18 »
Welcome Stephanie!

How is everyone's favorite former Church of Christ member but now Roman Catholic doing today?

Does Kent still know your Catholic? rofl ::doh:: ::hug::

Offline mllevaleur

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #116 on: Sun Apr 09, 2006 - 23:19:33 »
Hahaha, thanks Barry!

I dunno... ::idea:: maybe I should pop over and remind him, just in case he's forgotten!!  ::pondering:: Whaddya think?   rofl

Offline Shadow

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #117 on: Fri May 19, 2006 - 10:09:05 »
Wow, what a crazy thread this has turned into!
First of all, let me just say that, in regard to the original question, I personaly do not think there is anything "wrong" or "sinful" about your choice of business.

Ok, now, seeing as how I've had several good laughs throughout this thread, I want to comment on a few things:
Quote
It is the complete consensus of the entire Church for 2000 years.  No segment of any Christian group in the last 2000 years ever accepted contraception as a Christian practice--until the Anglican Church did so in the 1920s.
The entire church?  Well, you're wrong in every single way outside the CATHLOIC point of view. "No segment of any christain group..." Really?  PROVE IT!  Show me the proof that NO christain ever "pulled out" or did anything else to aviod pregnancy until the 1920s.
Also, everything you list as "proof" from your "saints" is irrelevant because their words are NOT from God, and, as you yourself said, they are "assumed".
As for your scriptural refferences...let's go to this one first:
Quote
Onan's sin of failure to comply with the levirate law was not just about failing to fulfill his levirate duty, but was also about failing to "raise up seed/children" to his brother; i.e., the putting of a barrier in the way of the procreative nature of sex
First of all, go grab your bible and re-read that whole story.  In the meantime, I'll refresh your memory a bit.  Onan was given a *specfic* command from God...why?  Because his brother had died without baring any children sooooo, God told Onan to lay with his brother's widow and bring forth children *for* his brother.  Is *every* single man on the planet, past, present and future given that command?  No.  Why?  Because that was a very specfic command issued for a specfic purpose because his brother did not have the oppertunity to "be blessed" with children.
With regard to your man made assumptions of what is right and wrong:
Quote
these men did not just make up this prohibition, but it was the common tradition handed down to them; and because it was the common tradition of the entire Church, there was no dissent from it for 2000 years;
Let's not forget that Christ chewed out the priests for "blindly following *tradition*" because it was lip service, if you will and was not being done from the heart or for the sake of keeping God's commands or doing His will.
You can argue your "points" into the ground until the world ends and they will still be nothing more than the "opinions", "rules" and "laws" set forth by the *cathloloc* church...thus, they have very little bearing on what the bible teaches.  They are "man's laws", not God's.
Also, if it is a sin per se' to use contreseption of one form or another because it is a violation of the "go forth be fruitful and multiply" command, then please explain this:
If the entire christain world just pops out as many "blessings" as our bodies will allow before it kills us, what are we to do when we can not afford so many "blessings"?  Are we to "test" God and see if He will make it rain money?
God is not ignorant and He didn't create us that way either.  He gave us all a brain, free will and (usually) some common sense.  It would be not only short sighted but extreamly foolish to think that He would *not* want us to exercise a bit of common sense and good judgement with our lives....that includes with having 20 kids just because the catholics say thou shalt not pullith out.

Offline CDHealy

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #118 on: Fri May 19, 2006 - 11:34:16 »
The entire church?

Yes.

Well, you're wrong in every single way outside the CATHLOIC point of view.

Do you have evidence to support you implicit claim here that other groups outside your so-called CATHOLIC group (which, if I correctly understand how you're using the term, is an historical fantasy) advocated contraception during the first near-two-thousand years of the Church's life until the 1920s?

"No segment of any christain group..." Really?  PROVE IT!

Yes.  I did.  Please go back and read my original posts in this thread.  I also, by the way, presented a thorough and rigorous argument based on Scripture which you will need to more closely analyze.

Show me the proof that NO christain ever "pulled out" or did anything else to aviod pregnancy until the 1920s.

I have demonstrated what the Christian view was for almost a full 2000 years.  Did individual Christians fail to live up to that teaching?  Sure.  But since I can't prove a negative (i.e., that no one ever failed to live up to the teaching), why don't you live up to your own demand and provide evidence that Christians did do the things you suggest AND that such behavior had broad Christian approval.  (Again, this would be for the entire life of the Church up to the present.)

Also, everything you list as "proof" from your "saints" is irrelevant because their words are NOT from God, and, as you yourself said, they are "assumed".

Hmmm. Well, then, it's a level playing field and your vigorous opposition to the biblical account of sex also holds no authority or directive force as well.  Funny how that knife cuts both ways.

But, in point of fact, I do not need to assume any sort of divine inspiration for any individual Christian from antiquity whom I quote.  The point is that this is the mind of the Church.  That is the issue.

As for your scriptural refferences...

First of all, go grab your bible and re-read that whole story.  In the meantime, I'll refresh your memory a bit.  Onan was given a *specfic* command from God...why?  Because his brother had died without baring any children sooooo, God told Onan to lay with his brother's widow and bring forth children *for* his brother.  Is *every* single man on the planet, past, present and future given that command?  No.  Why?  Because that was a very specfic command issued for a specfic purpose because his brother did not have the oppertunity to "be blessed" with children.

Since your comments here not only wholly bypass what I have said regarding Onan, and they also have nothing to do with the biblical account of Onan's sin--at least if they do it's not obvious to me from what you say here--I will simply bypass these as a logical diversion.

However, perhaps you can show how what you say here actually has something to do with the biblical account, in which case I'd be happy to address it in the future.

Let's not forget that Christ chewed out the priests for "blindly following *tradition*" because it was lip service, if you will and was not being done from the heart or for the sake of keeping God's commands or doing His will.

You yourself need to more carefully read what Jesus said about the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees:

Quote
"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. (Matthew 15:2-6)

And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?" And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)-- then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do." (Mark 7:5-13)

So far as we have record, these are the only words of Jesus on tradition (paradosis).  Notice two things: 1) he is NOT rejecting tradition per se; 2) but rather he is rejecting tradition that "releases" someone from obeying something God actually commanded.  That is to say, Jesus is criticizing that scribal/Pharisaic traditions were used to bypass God's clear commands, or to take away freedom that God had given.

In fact, elsewhere Jesus explicitly told his disciples:

Quote
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. (Matthew 23:2-3)

So, Jesus was not rejecting all tradition, only that tradition that bypassed God or prohibited that which God had expressly allowed.

There are five other instances of the use of the word "tradition" (paradosis) in the New Testament.  One of them is, indeed, a negative use:

Quote
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.  (Colossians 2:8)

As I will show in a moment, St. Paul is in no way rejecting all tradition, only that which is opposed to Christ.  In other words, St. Paul's remarks are consonant with Jesus' criticisms: any tradition which abrogates God's command or which asserts a prohibition which God does not is to be rejected.

There is one neutral use of "tradition" by St. Paul when he's describing his own life in Galatians 1:14.  But there are three explicitly positive uses of "tradition" in other of St. Paul's writings.

Quote
Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2)

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.  (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.  (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

So, in point of fact, we ARE to adhere to tradition, apostolic tradition.

You can argue your "points" into the ground until the world ends and they will still be nothing more than the "opinions", "rules" and "laws" set forth by the *cathloloc* church...thus, they have very little bearing on what the bible teaches.  They are "man's laws", not God's.

Please demonstrate that what I have argued is in fact merely man's laws and is not the divine will for human sexual activity.  Simply saying it does not make it so.

Also, if it is a sin per se' to use contreseption of one form or another because it is a violation of the "go forth be fruitful and multiply" command, then please explain this:
If the entire christain world just pops out as many "blessings" as our bodies will allow before it kills us, what are we to do when we can not afford so many "blessings"?  Are we to "test" God and see if He will make it rain money?

You are arguing against something I have never argued, and in fact, is not necessary to my argument.  Please return to my original remarks on this thread and read more carefully what I wrote there.  All you present here is a straw man.

God is not ignorant and He didn't create us that way either.  He gave us all a brain, free will and (usually) some common sense.  It would be not only short sighted but extreamly foolish to think that He would *not* want us to exercise a bit of common sense and good judgement with our lives....that includes with having 20 kids just because the catholics say thou shalt not pullith out.

Well what you claim is the catholic viewpoint is, in fact, NOT the catholic viewpoint (I'm beginning to wonder who it is you're arguing with), nor is it mine, nor is it God's.  You present a false dilemma which is not necessary to my argument and is therefore logically irrelevant.

Offline janine

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #119 on: Fri May 19, 2006 - 22:37:37 »
To Heck on a great big Spork with apostolic tradition and the "mind of the Church".

twd

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #120 on: Thu May 25, 2006 - 18:18:51 »
So, are you saying sporks are of the devil, Janine?

Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #121 on: Thu May 25, 2006 - 18:32:43 »
all this talk is icky.   ::lookaround::

Offline janine

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #122 on: Thu May 25, 2006 - 21:37:14 »
Was it icky way back when it was mostly about whether or not God minds us using sex toys?

Offline Trinity

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #123 on: Wed Jun 07, 2006 - 22:21:16 »
Okay, I have been reading this, and I have one question.  I had my tubes tied before I became a Christian, does that mean that I am considered a murderer?

I know that through Jesus I have been forgiven for everything that I have done in my past.  But from what I gather, what I have done is so very wrong.  Had I known that it was wrong, or let me put it this way... if I had been a Christian when I had my son, I never wouldn't have done it.

So does that mean that I am wrong for doing that?  And will I have to answer for that in the end, even though I have already been forgiven for that?

Offline Jimbob

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #124 on: Wed Jun 07, 2006 - 22:27:28 »
There is nothing--sin or just "I wouldn't have if I'd..."-- that the blood of Christ has not covered in you if you are His.  Keep the faith, lean on His grace, and don't let Satan play the "past" card to bring you down.

‚ÄúDear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.  This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Offline spurly

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #125 on: Thu Jun 08, 2006 - 07:28:43 »
And by the way, depending on why you had your tubes tied, it may not have even been a sin.

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #126 on: Thu Jun 08, 2006 - 15:32:23 »
And by the way, depending on why you had your tubes tied, it may not have even been a sin.
Indeed.  In any case, don't beat yourself up for things done before you were a Christian.

Offline carolineislands

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #127 on: Thu Jun 08, 2006 - 20:28:09 »
What does the Bible say about sex toys?

Hebrews 13:4  Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

The marriage bed is honorable and undefiled.  It is there for our pleasure and to express the joy of true love.  God made it all pleasurable for good reasons and it's a sin to waste the precious gifts he gives us.  What kind of a father would give a snake to a hungry child?  Any loving father would give a child good things, and if the earthly fathers have such a good heart for their children, how much more does our heavenly father love us and give us wonderful blessings for our joy and happiness?

The marriage bed is not only undefiled -- its the reward and blessing of marriage.  It is honrable IN ALL.

what was that website again?

;)

Caroline

Offline carolineislands

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #128 on: Thu Jun 08, 2006 - 20:31:05 »
PS:

Honorable IN ALL -- to me that means that, as long as you are with your husband or wife, it's pretty much whatever blows yer skirt up!


Offline Arkstfan

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #129 on: Fri Jun 09, 2006 - 13:02:47 »
I agree caroline as long as whatever you are using to blow yer skirt up doesn't become the focus of the activity.

Offline spurly

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #130 on: Sat Jun 10, 2006 - 16:18:46 »
I was thinking about the title of this thread, "is it okay with God if".  In my opinion, that is the wrong question.  Why try to determine what is "acceptable".  What is acceptable with God is not always what is best.  Instead of asking, "Is it okay with God if...", why not ask "How can I best line my life up with God and allow him to get the most glory in this area of my life".  That question leads to the best answer, and not just something that is "okay".

Offline Dagan

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #131 on: Sun Jul 02, 2006 - 10:08:55 »
    I like that response very much.
    I've had people tell me that "if you have to reason or think through it" you probably shouldn't engage in it. That was awhile ago, I don't know if there is Scripture to back that up.

Offline zoonance

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #132 on: Thu Jul 20, 2006 - 17:17:01 »
ah, but the majority of our "doctrines" involve ... "a desire to reason and think through it"....
Certainly, if your concience screams "GUILT" then at least a biblical clarification for that feeling of guilt should be explored.  Some could eat meat and others could not for concience sake for example.  Maybe this subject is similar.   One thing seems clear, if both are comfortable with what is going on, then neither feels violated or minimized.  Lovemaking starts long before the bed and when the physical cresendos from the spiritual oneness,  it can be quite.... fun.....exciting....pleasurable.....  It is a form of communication.

Offline Follower the Heaven Bound

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #133 on: Sun Jul 23, 2006 - 16:48:27 »
most people I know would just say eww but I say yes!

Offline dekatko

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Re: Is it okay with God if we.....
« Reply #134 on: Wed Jan 27, 2010 - 22:36:52 »
I like MacArthurs Quote (As far as I remember it was him)
"The sooner we get rid of Victorian prudishness, the better...."