What it means to be a man!

[JohnDB]

A real man hugs and kisses his mommy even when her mustache is thicker and fuller than his. 

A real man checks the diaper of the baby and if it is a doodie...ignores it and says, "Honey, I think the baby needs checking on...I did it last time."


A real man starts snoring loudly during "Steel Magnolias", "Fried green tomatoes" or any othe such drivel the wife wants to watch.

A real man is always the most animated on the sidelines during any sport competition his son is involved in...but feigns an old knee injury during those practice sessions where it is parents against the kids.

Lets get real here...
been there and done this...and I wasn't alone.

[chaz345]

So is the idea of "adolescence"  (an inbetween period where child to adult status/responsibility) biblical?  As already mentioned, 30 years old was considered a benchmark in the jewish culture it seems.  However, the 12-29 year old wasn't given 'permission' to sow wild oats, suckle momma, behave like an animal, get the milk for free until it was no longer interested him, etc.

I don't know about how Biblical it is but in terms of today's society it is primarily a Western thing and is also a relatively recent development.  Maybe that's not quite right in terms of a period between childhood and adult status responsibility but that time period has gotten a lot longer and what is expected of people in that age range is a lot lower than it used to be.  Seriously if you look at it, particularly in America, not much is expected of people between the ages of 13 and their mid 20's. But it certainly hasn't always been that way.

[zoonance]

So is the idea of "adolescence"  (an inbetween period where child to adult status/responsibility) biblical?  As already mentioned, 30 years old was considered a benchmark in the jewish culture it seems.  However, the 12-29 year old wasn't given 'permission' to sow wild oats, suckle momma, behave like an animal, get the milk for free until it was no longer interested him, etc.

How would this trend be reversed?  What message or approach (from the church or as a member of our culture) would encourage an adult wannabe to get on with it?  Taking responsibility for decisions and actions would be great but avoiding the "childish" behaviors because of manhood or womanhood would be preferable. Can we christians be guilty of letting cultural norms dictate what we expect from our kids and from ourselves?  






I don't know about how Biblical it is but in terms of today's society it is primarily a Western thing and is also a relatively recent development.  Maybe that's not quite right in terms of a period between childhood and adult status responsibility but that time period has gotten a lot longer and what is expected of people in that age range is a lot lower than it used to be.  Seriously if you look at it, particularly in America, not much is expected of people between the ages of 13 and their mid 20's. But it certainly hasn't always been that way.

[chaz345]

In terms of what to do, here's a great start:
http://www.therebelution.com/dohardthings/

So is the idea of "adolescence"  (an inbetween period where child to adult status/responsibility) biblical?  As already mentioned, 30 years old was considered a benchmark in the jewish culture it seems.  However, the 12-29 year old wasn't given 'permission' to sow wild oats, suckle momma, behave like an animal, get the milk for free until it was no longer interested him, etc.

How would this trend be reversed?  What message or approach (from the church or as a member of our culture) would encourage an adult wannabe to get on with it?  Taking responsibility for decisions and actions would be great but avoiding the "childish" behaviors because of manhood or womanhood would be preferable. Can we christians be guilty of letting cultural norms dictate what we expect from our kids and from ourselves?  






I don't know about how Biblical it is but in terms of today's society it is primarily a Western thing and is also a relatively recent development.  Maybe that's not quite right in terms of a period between childhood and adult status responsibility but that time period has gotten a lot longer and what is expected of people in that age range is a lot lower than it used to be.  Seriously if you look at it, particularly in America, not much is expected of people between the ages of 13 and their mid 20's. But it certainly hasn't always been that way.

[BAH-BLAH]

Yes Ive heard of that chaz...seems cool, have you read it?

[chaz345]

Yes Ive heard of that chaz...seems cool, have you read it?

Haven't read it yet, it's actually hard to find locally, probably since they are from right near where I live. Their older brother is Josh Harris, the author of I Kissed Dating Goodbye.

[yesult]

I clicked off at the word 'loser' simply because condemnation tears down, it doesn't build.

However referring to the other 50% as 'UNspoken to' is ridiculous. Women get enough garbage from the church mostly through being largely ignored. They need to know that as a christian, they're just as valuable as men. Because although it might be assumed, it sure isn't encouraged overall. How often do you see women built up for ministry from the pulpit? Very rarely. How often do you even see their roles validated. Most sermons are gender neutral, which means both gender roles and their unique strengths and importance gets largely ignored.

Womens conferences mostly seem to revolve around the affirmation of women as christians because they NEED it. Being ignored can do that to you. Mens conferences seem to revolve around how to be a christian man. Probably because it's so often glossed over.

There's a place for womens and mens conferences and the speakers tend to try to get to the core of the issues in a short space of time, because that's all they've got. Which really seems to result in more of a lightening visit to an essential issue for a quick overhaul and pump up. It isn't enough. But that's what happens when church is reduced to sundays and pastors are set up as our main instructors on how to be a christian. The time factor alone doesn't leave a lot for much else.

[farouk]

Didn't the Levites have to be 30 to function as such, but didn't they also have to retire at 50?....

[quote author=zoonance link=topic=39429.msg712469#msg712469 date=1257729531
So is the idea of "adolescence"  (an inbetween period where child to adult status/responsibility) biblical?  As already mentioned, 30 years old was considered a benchmark in the jewish culture it seems.  However, the 12-29 year old wasn't given 'permission' to sow wild oats, suckle momma, behave like an animal, get the milk for free until it was no longer interested him, etc.
[/quote]

[OkiMar]

Mike Van Gundy knows...

[zoonance]

Mike Van Gundy knows...

us okie's are real men

[BAH-BLAH]

I clicked off at the word 'loser' simply because condemnation tears down, it doesn't build.

However referring to the other 50% as 'UNspoken to' is ridiculous. Women get enough garbage from the church mostly through being largely ignored. They need to know that as a christian, they're just as valuable as men. Because although it might be assumed, it sure isn't encouraged overall. How often do you see women built up for ministry from the pulpit? Very rarely. How often do you even see their roles validated. Most sermons are gender neutral, which means both gender roles and their unique strengths and importance gets largely ignored.

Womens conferences mostly seem to revolve around the affirmation of women as christians because they NEED it. Being ignored can do that to you. Mens conferences seem to revolve around how to be a christian man. Probably because it's so often glossed over.

There's a place for womens and mens conferences and the speakers tend to try to get to the core of the issues in a short space of time, because that's all they've got. Which really seems to result in more of a lightening visit to an essential issue for a quick overhaul and pump up. It isn't enough. But that's what happens when church is reduced to sundays and pastors are set up as our main instructors on how to be a christian. The time factor alone doesn't leave a lot for much else.

This comes from an alternate universe right? Where men are built up and women ignored in church? Frankly Id welcome a little of that "being ignored" stuff.
If most sermons are gender neutral where you go to church...OK...but reach out, download a few dozen on the internet and read/listen. It wont take you long to disprove this theory. Or I will modify that, and say that WHEN there is gender in the sermon, it goes one way. Sure I guess in that sense there are two kinds of sermons...gender nuetral, and those that admonish men. So, my comment stands, 50% are left unspoken to.

Its glossed over "how to be a Christian man?" I almost can't believe Im reading that.
Go online, pick 20 churches around the country that have websites, and read through the ministry offerings...the mens and the womens......by sheer number...come again with the "ignoring thing".....by topic, come again with the men are not being taught how to be Christian men thing.

What would you do differently? How would you see that women are NOT ignored? What specificlly is there going on that caters to men, and ignores women?

At least you do see that womens groups/ministries, etc are about building up...we can definately agree there. But to suggest its the church tearing them down is unusual indeed. When mens groups spring from the basic assumption that we are teetering on the brink of an all out porn and prostitute orgy every moment, while womens ministry suggest that women are beaten down all the time BY MEN and therefore need building up....This comes in Mother Day and Fathers Day, and in the "marriage series" every preacher preaches occasionally.

Basically, the underlying premise to the video and to the churches presentation is that women are inherantly holier than men....and you want to double that effort?

Ok than.

[yesult]

This comes from an alternate universe right? Where men are built up and women ignored in church?

No, it's right in front of your nose if you'd ever bothered to pay any attention to it.

If most sermons are gender neutral where you go to church...OK...but reach out, download a few dozen on the internet and read/listen. It wont take you long to disprove this theory.

I've been a christian all my life. I don't have to. It's based on a lifetimes worth of observation.

Or I will modify that, and say that WHEN there is gender in the sermon, it goes one way.

So women arn't preached to in many sermons? Give me a break.

Sure I guess in that sense there are two kinds of sermons...gender nuetral, and those that admonish men.

Oh, so there are some gender neutral sermons are there. Glad you admit that. And the rest are all for men. Guess I hadn't noticed. How about that. And it would be strange if that was the case considering that a large part of the audience is women, so a male only sermon is a waste of time to half the congregation. (On top of the fact that I never, ever remember hearing a male only sermon to a whole congregation in my life.) I can't think of a single preacher I've ever heard who was that blind.

So, my comment stands, 50% are left unspoken to.

 No your comment just doesn't fly because it's something you've pulled out of the air to make yourself feel better.

Its glossed over "how to be a Christian man?" I almost can't believe Im reading that.
Go online, pick 20 churches around the country that have websites, and read through the ministry offerings...the mens and the womens......by sheer number...come again with the "ignoring thing".....by topic, come again with the men are not being taught how to be Christian men thing.

How many women pastors and preachers do you know? Funny, they make up only a tiny percent of overall leadership. Trying to claim that there's as many women and men in ministry is utterly ridiculous.

What would you do differently? How would you see that women are NOT ignored? What specificlly is there going on that caters to men, and ignores women?

Ministry. Hello.

At least you do see that womens groups/ministries, etc are about building up...we can definately agree there.

At least? Actually I'm just stating the obvious.

But to suggest its the church tearing them down is unusual indeed.

No I'm just stating that the church is largely ignoring their talents and always has because men make up the bulk of ministering positions in the church at large (and always have.)

When mens groups spring from the basic assumption that we are teetering on the brink of an all out porn and prostitute orgy every moment, while womens ministry suggest that women are beaten down all the time BY MEN and therefore need building up....This comes in Mother Day and Fathers Day, and in the "marriage series" every preacher preaches occasionally.

Gosh, you wouldn't be exaggerating would you? Why would you feel the need? What bugs you so much about what they're saying that you're reacting so violently. Claiming women are never preached to and the men should be left alone?

Basically, the underlying premise to the video and to the churches presentation is that women are inherantly holier than men....and you want to double that effort?

Really? So Mark Driscoll thinks that all women are superior to him. Funny, but I don't agree, and have to wonder why you're trying to imply that he does.

[BAH-BLAH]

This comes from an alternate universe right? Where men are built up and women ignored in church?

No, it's right in front of your nose if you'd ever bothered to pay any attention to it.

If most sermons are gender neutral where you go to church...OK...but reach out, download a few dozen on the internet and read/listen. It wont take you long to disprove this theory.

I've been a christian all my life. I don't have to. It's based on a lifetimes worth of observation. ACTUALLY IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOUVE BEEN CHRISTIAN FOR 100 LIFETIMES, IT MATTERS IF YOU HAVE RESEARCHED THIS BY INVESTIGATING WHAT A PREPONDERANCE OF CHURCHES DO...NOT YOUR ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE IN YOUR LIFETIME. ITS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE CHURCHES YOU HAVE ATTENDED ADHERE TO THIS PATTERN. BUT MOST DONT, ITS AN EMPIRACLE FACT, HOW YOU FEEL AND WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED WONT CHANGE IT. I ASSUME THOUGH THAT LIKE MOST YOU ARE CLOSED TO REAL INFORMATION AND CHOOSE TO FORM YOUR VIEWS ABOUT THE WHOLE WORLD JUST BASED ON YOUR LIFE.

Or I will modify that, and say that WHEN there is gender in the sermon, it goes one way.

So women arn't preached to in many sermons? Give me a break. NO, THEY ARE NOT. "GIVE ME A BREAK" IS HARDLY A REPLY. AS I SAID, GO DOWNLOAD SERMONS FROM A LARGE CROSS SECTION - I HAVE DONE THIS - READ THEM, THEN YOU WILL BE INFORMED. I WILL MODIFY THIS TO SAY WHEN WOMEN ARE SPOKEN TO ITS ENCOURAGEMENT AND USUALLY THAT ENCOURAGEMENT CONTAINS AN ELEMENT OF TINGUE IN CHEEK "IF YOU CAN TOLARATE THE MAN IN YOUR LIFE" STUFF. I COULD POST ALL THE STUFF I HAVE, BUT I HAVE A FDEELING YOU WOULDNT BELIEVE IT IF IT WERE TATOOED ON YOU

Sure I guess in that sense there are two kinds of sermons...gender nuetral, and those that admonish men.

Oh, so there are some gender neutral sermons are there. Glad you admit that. And the rest are all for men. Guess I hadn't noticed. How about that. And it would be strange if that was the case considering that a large part of the audience is women, so a male only sermon is a waste of time to half the congregation. (On top of the fact that I never, ever remember hearing a male only sermon to a whole congregation in my life.) I can't think of a single preacher I've ever heard who was that blind.

YOU ARE ONTO SOMETHING HERE! YOUVE LANDED ON THE REASON THE CONGREGATION IS MOSTLY WOMEN. BECAUSE MEN ARE SICK AND TIRED OF WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. TRY SOMETHING...READ "WHY MEN HATE TO GO TO CHURCH" AND READ "THE CHURCH IMPOTENT"...VERY SCHOLARLY STUDIES ON THE BEHAVIORS OF THE GENDERS AND WHY AND WHY NOT THEY ARE PRESENT ON SUNDAYS...AGAIN, I DOUBT YOU'D BE CONVINCED. I USED TO BELIEVE EXACTLY AS YOU DO, AS DID LOTS OF GUYS I KNOW. SOMETHING USUALLY OPENS THEIR EYES , AN EVENT, NOT JUST SOMEONE TELLING THEM. TO BE HONEST YOU'LL BE BETTER OFF IN THE CACOON BECAUSE ITS USUALLY TRAUMA THAT REVEALS THIS STUFF.

So, my comment stands, 50% are left unspoken to.

 No your comment just doesn't fly because it's something you've pulled out of the air to make yourself feel better.

IT DO3ES FLY, ITS EMPIRICALLY PROVEN, MEANING, A MASSIVE NUMBER OF SERMONS ARE STUDIED, AND THEN THE GIST TABULATED, WHEN THE GIST IS CORRECTIVE TO MEN IS COUNTED AND COMPARED TO WHEN THE GIST IS CORRECTIVE TO WOMEN...AND THE RESULTS BEAR OUT MY CLAIM. DONT LET EMPIRACLE FACTS CLOUD THE ISSUE THOUGH

Its glossed over "how to be a Christian man?" I almost can't believe Im reading that.
Go online, pick 20 churches around the country that have websites, and read through the ministry offerings...the mens and the womens......by sheer number...come again with the "ignoring thing".....by topic, come again with the men are not being taught how to be Christian men thing.

How many women pastors and preachers do you know? Funny, they make up only a tiny percent of overall leadership. Trying to claim that there's as many women and men in ministry is utterly ridiculous.

I SAID MINISTRIES, NOT IN MINISTRY. I NEVER CLAIMED WHAT YOU SAY I DID. I SAID THAT IN A GIVEN CHURCH, THEY HAVE A SET OF MINISTRIES....KIDS MINISTRY, SINGLES MINISTRY, HOMELESS MINISTRY, WHATEVER, AND THEY HAVE A CATAGORY CALLED MENS MINISTRIES AND ONE CALLED WOMENS MINISTRIES.....THATS WHAT I AM COUNTING, NOT WOMEN IN MINISTRY LIKE PASTORS AND SUCH...FRANKLY THATS IRRELEVANT TO MY WHOLE POINT.

What would you do differently? How would you see that women are NOT ignored? What specificlly is there going on that caters to men, and ignores women?

Ministry. Hello. HELLO! THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT...WHAT YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY IN MINISTRIES.....HOW WOULD YOU ADDRESS THE LADIES WHO ARE SO NEGLECTED AS YOU SAY (WHICH BEGS THE POINT YOU MADE EARLIER IF WOMEN ARE SO NEGLECTED WHY THE HECK ARE THERE MORE OF THEM THERE?)

At least you do see that womens groups/ministries, etc are about building up...we can definately agree there.

At least? Actually I'm just stating the obvious. YES THAT IS OBVIOUS.

But to suggest its the church tearing them down is unusual indeed.

No I'm just stating that the church is largely ignoring their talents and always has because men make up the bulk of ministering positions in the church at large (and always have.)WE SEEM TO BE FOCUSED IN TWO DIFF PLACES. THE ISSUE OF WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE THAN WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS THE GIST OF ANY GENDER BASED CONTENT OF THE TEACHING. ALL ONE NEED DO TO FIND AN EXAMPLE, ONE EXAMPLE TO SHOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IS READ THE MOTHERS DAY SERMON AND FATHERS DAY SERMON FROM 5 DIFFERENT CHURCHES. YOU WILL GET A 100% RESULT IN MY FAVOR. ON MOTHERS DAY THE MOMS ARE (RIGHTFULLY I ADD, THEY DESERVE IT) GUSHED OVER, ON FATHERS DAY IT CAN BE SUMMED UP WITH 4 WORDS, "DADS NEED TO STEP UP"....SO, ARE THERE DADS THAT NEED TO STEP UP....YES, BUT ARE THERE MOTHERS THAT ARE HORRIBLE AND NOT DESERVING THE GUSHING, YOU BET, SO A LITTLE DEVAITION FROM THE TEMPLATE, A LITTLE PRAISE FOR THE MEN, A LITTLE CORRECTION FOR THE WOMEN, AND THAT 50% IS SUDDENLY SPOKEN TO. I SUSPECT  YOU FIND "ENCOURAGEMENT" IN THE BROW BEATINGS WE GET ON FATHERS DAY. MEN WILL NOD THEIR HEADS AND EVEN CRY EVERY FATHERS DAY IVE BEEN IN CHURCH FOR 35 YEARS SINCE I CAN REMEMBER IT....AND CLAIM HOW WONDERFUL THAT WAS....WELL THE REASON THERE ARE LESS MEN THAN WOMEN IS LOTS OF MEN DONT FEEL WONDERFUL ANYMORE....READ THOSE BOOKS, THEY EMPIRICALLY PROVE THESE POINTS.
OR DONT, AND BASE YOUR OPINIONS ON ANECDOTES...THATS OK

When mens groups spring from the basic assumption that we are teetering on the brink of an all out porn and prostitute orgy every moment, while womens ministry suggest that women are beaten down all the time BY MEN and therefore need building up....This comes in Mother Day and Fathers Day, and in the "marriage series" every preacher preaches occasionally.

Gosh, you wouldn't be exaggerating would you? Why would you feel the need? What bugs you so much about what they're saying that you're reacting so violently. Claiming women are never preached to and the men should be left alone? FIRST MY REACTION IS NOT VIOLENT, ITS PASSIONATE. IF YOU JUST FOR A SECOND IMAGINE THAT I WAS CORRECT, EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE, YOU'D SEE WHY ITS A PASSIONATE SUBJECT. THE FAMILY IS DISINTEGRATING IN THE CHURCH AND WE REDOUBLE AND REDOUBLE THE SAME EXACT WORN OUT MANNERS OF ADDRESSING IT.I NEVER SAID MEN SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE...YOU PUT WORDS RIGHT IN MY MOUTH, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW IT. WHEN I SUGGEST ADDING THE OTHER 50%, HOW DOES THAT SUGGEST SUBTRACTING THE EXISTING 50%. MEN NEED THESE ADMONISHMENTS WE GET, IVE NO ISSUE WITH THAT. WHAT IM SAYING IS STEP BACK AND TAKE A LOOK AT  RELATIONSHIPS, MARRIAGES, AND DIVORCE, AND TELL ME AS DR PHIL SAYS, "HOWS THAT WORKIN OUT FOR YA?"  ITS NOT. A CHANGE, SOME CHANGE IS IN ORDER. AND ITS NOT JUST "MORE COW BELL"

Basically, the underlying premise to the video and to the churches presentation is that women are inherantly holier than men....and you want to double that effort?

Really? So Mark Driscoll thinks that all women are superior to him. Funny, but I don't agree, and have to wonder why you're trying to imply that he does. NO NOT GUESSING WHAT DRISCOL BELIEVES, BUT IF I HAD TO GUESS, HE WOULD NEVER STATE OUTRIGHT THAT WOMEN ARE MORE HOLY THAN MEN, BUT IF ASKED A SERIES OF RELATED QUESTIONS, IT WOULD BE READILY APPARANET THATS WHERE HE IS COMING FROM.
HAVE YOU EVER EVEN IMAGINED THE FEMALE EQUIVALENT OF DRISOLL? THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THEM, AND IF YOU WANT TO REALLY MAKE PEOPLE MAD, BRING THEM UP IN MIXED COMPANY. THE MOST BASIC ONE IS DR LAURA....THOUGH NOT A CHRISTIAN, HER VIEWS ARE A BIT THE FEMALE EQUIVALENT OF DRICOLLS. FOLKS DONT LIKE IT TOO MUCH, AND IT WOULD NOT FLY IF A PREACHER PREACHED SOME OF THE CONCEPTS SHE ESPOUSES THAT ARE CONGRUENT WITH CHRISTIANITY.

[fanuvmxpx]

All I see here is a guy saying how bad other guys are. A psychologist would add that he is attempting to make himself look better by putting others down.

I love how he talks behind the backs of all the males he observes. You want to raise a Godly "Man"? Search the scriptures & raise him in the way he should go. Keep your mouth to yourself.

A sermon filled with gossip & pride, how lovely.

To be a "man" you HAVE to get married and HAVE to go to college and HAVE to have kids? That's a man camp my son won't be attending.

[yesult]

=blah blah]If most sermons are gender neutral where you go to church...OK...but reach out, download a few dozen on the internet and read/listen. It wont take you long to disprove this theory.

I've been a christian all my life. I don't have to. It's based on a lifetimes worth of observation.

ACTUALLY IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOUVE BEEN CHRISTIAN FOR 100 LIFETIMES, IT MATTERS IF YOU HAVE RESEARCHED THIS BY INVESTIGATING WHAT A PREPONDERANCE OF CHURCHES DO...NOT YOUR ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE IN YOUR LIFETIME. ITS QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THE CHURCHES YOU HAVE ATTENDED ADHERE TO THIS PATTERN. BUT MOST DONT, ITS AN EMPIRACLE FACT, HOW YOU FEEL AND WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED WONT CHANGE IT. I ASSUME THOUGH THAT LIKE MOST YOU ARE CLOSED TO REAL INFORMATION AND CHOOSE TO FORM YOUR VIEWS ABOUT THE WHOLE WORLD JUST BASED ON YOUR LIFE.

Empiracle fact? Or your opinon. Oh gosh. Your opinion. How about that?

Or I will modify that, and say that WHEN there is gender in the sermon, it goes one way.

So women arn't preached to in many sermons? Give me a break.

NO, THEY ARE NOT. "GIVE ME A BREAK" IS HARDLY A REPLY. AS I SAID, GO DOWNLOAD SERMONS FROM A LARGE CROSS SECTION - I HAVE DONE THIS - READ THEM, THEN YOU WILL BE INFORMED. I WILL MODIFY THIS TO SAY WHEN WOMEN ARE SPOKEN TO ITS ENCOURAGEMENT AND USUALLY THAT ENCOURAGEMENT CONTAINS AN ELEMENT OF TINGUE IN CHEEK "IF YOU CAN TOLARATE THE MAN IN YOUR LIFE" STUFF. I COULD POST ALL THE STUFF I HAVE, BUT I HAVE A FDEELING YOU WOULDNT BELIEVE IT IF IT WERE TATOOED ON YOU

Because it's a heap of garbage and what you want to believe. Shouting doesn't make it any ore true by the way. You've stated a personal opinon and are now trying to ram it down everyone elses throat.

A lifetime of experience doesn't cease to exist because your personal opinon has been affronted.

Sure I guess in that sense there are two kinds of sermons...gender nuetral, and those that admonish men.

Oh, so there are some gender neutral sermons are there. Glad you admit that. And the rest are all for men. Guess I hadn't noticed. How about that. And it would be strange if that was the case considering that a large part of the audience is women, so a male only sermon is a waste of time to half the congregation. (On top of the fact that I never, ever remember hearing a male only sermon to a whole congregation in my life.) I can't think of a single preacher I've ever heard who was that blind.

YOU ARE ONTO SOMETHING HERE! YOUVE LANDED ON THE REASON THE CONGREGATION IS MOSTLY WOMEN. BECAUSE MEN ARE SICK AND TIRED OF WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT. TRY SOMETHING...READ "WHY MEN HATE TO GO TO CHURCH" AND READ "THE CHURCH IMPOTENT"...VERY SCHOLARLY STUDIES ON THE BEHAVIORS OF THE GENDERS AND WHY AND WHY NOT THEY ARE PRESENT ON SUNDAYS...AGAIN, I DOUBT YOU'D BE CONVINCED. I USED TO BELIEVE EXACTLY AS YOU DO, AS DID LOTS OF GUYS I KNOW. SOMETHING USUALLY OPENS THEIR EYES , AN EVENT, NOT JUST SOMEONE TELLING THEM. TO BE HONEST YOU'LL BE BETTER OFF IN THE CACOON BECAUSE ITS USUALLY TRAUMA THAT REVEALS THIS STUFF.

Gosh, getting a bit heated arn't we. Your 'proof' is still as vapid as your arguments.

So, my comment stands, 50% are left unspoken to.

 No your comment just doesn't fly because it's something you've pulled out of the air to make yourself feel better.

IT DO3ES FLY, ITS EMPIRICALLY PROVEN, MEANING, A MASSIVE NUMBER OF SERMONS ARE STUDIED, AND THEN THE GIST TABULATED, WHEN THE GIST IS CORRECTIVE TO MEN IS COUNTED AND COMPARED TO WHEN THE GIST IS CORRECTIVE TO WOMEN...AND THE RESULTS BEAR OUT MY CLAIM. DONT LET EMPIRACLE FACTS CLOUD THE ISSUE THOUGH

Proven? You've just shouted a lot. How does that prove anything?

Its glossed over "how to be a Christian man?" I almost can't believe Im reading that.
Go online, pick 20 churches around the country that have websites, and read through the ministry offerings...the mens and the womens......by sheer number...come again with the "ignoring thing".....by topic, come again with the men are not being taught how to be Christian men thing.

How many women pastors and preachers do you know? Funny, they make up only a tiny percent of overall leadership. Trying to claim that there's as many women and men in ministry is utterly ridiculous.

I SAID MINISTRIES, NOT IN MINISTRY. I NEVER CLAIMED WHAT YOU SAY I DID. I SAID THAT IN A GIVEN CHURCH, THEY HAVE A SET OF MINISTRIES....KIDS MINISTRY, SINGLES MINISTRY, HOMELESS MINISTRY, WHATEVER, AND THEY HAVE A CATAGORY CALLED MENS MINISTRIES AND ONE CALLED WOMENS MINISTRIES.....THATS WHAT I AM COUNTING, NOT WOMEN IN MINISTRY LIKE PASTORS AND SUCH...FRANKLY THATS IRRELEVANT TO MY WHOLE POINT.

No it isn't. My point is that women need affirmation as christians far more then men because they get ignored so much in christianity as the 'weaker vessel' at best, and at worst, the inferior vessel.

What would you do differently? How would you see that women are NOT ignored? What specificlly is there going on that caters to men, and ignores women?

Ministry. Hello.

HELLO! THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT...WHAT YOU WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY IN MINISTRIES.....HOW WOULD YOU ADDRESS THE LADIES WHO ARE SO NEGLECTED AS YOU SAY (WHICH BEGS THE POINT YOU MADE EARLIER IF WOMEN ARE SO NEGLECTED WHY THE HECK ARE THERE MORE OF THEM THERE?)

Ministry. Hello. Guess why? Because theres so few women in it overall. Only 'behind the scenes' or in service type ministries that arn't seen to have the same weight as leadership type positions such as preaching and pastoring.

At least you do see that womens groups/ministries, etc are about building up...we can definately agree there.

At least? Actually I'm just stating the obvious.

But to suggest its the church tearing them down is unusual indeed.

No I'm just stating that the church is largely ignoring their talents and always has because men make up the bulk of ministering positions in the church at large (and always have.)

WE SEEM TO BE FOCUSED IN TWO DIFF PLACES. THE ISSUE OF WOMEN IN LEADERSHIP IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE THAN WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS THE GIST OF ANY GENDER BASED CONTENT OF THE TEACHING. ALL ONE NEED DO TO FIND AN EXAMPLE, ONE EXAMPLE TO SHOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT IS READ THE MOTHERS DAY SERMON AND FATHERS DAY SERMON FROM 5 DIFFERENT CHURCHES. YOU WILL GET A 100% RESULT IN MY FAVOR. ON MOTHERS DAY THE MOMS ARE (RIGHTFULLY I ADD, THEY DESERVE IT) GUSHED OVER, ON FATHERS DAY IT CAN BE SUMMED UP WITH 4 WORDS, "DADS NEED TO STEP UP"....SO, ARE THERE DADS THAT NEED TO STEP UP....YES, BUT ARE THERE MOTHERS THAT ARE HORRIBLE AND NOT DESERVING THE GUSHING, YOU BET, SO A LITTLE DEVAITION FROM THE TEMPLATE, A LITTLE PRAISE FOR THE MEN, A LITTLE CORRECTION FOR THE WOMEN, AND THAT 50% IS SUDDENLY SPOKEN TO. I SUSPECT  YOU FIND "ENCOURAGEMENT" IN THE BROW BEATINGS WE GET ON FATHERS DAY. MEN WILL NOD THEIR HEADS AND EVEN CRY EVERY FATHERS DAY IVE BEEN IN CHURCH FOR 35 YEARS SINCE I CAN REMEMBER IT....AND CLAIM HOW WONDERFUL THAT WAS....WELL THE REASON THERE ARE LESS MEN THAN WOMEN IS LOTS OF MEN DONT FEEL WONDERFUL ANYMORE....READ THOSE BOOKS, THEY EMPIRICALLY PROVE THESE POINTS.
OR DONT, AND BASE YOUR OPINIONS ON ANECDOTES...THATS OK

You're exaggerating and bitter. That's pretty blatently obvious.

When mens groups spring from the basic assumption that we are teetering on the brink of an all out porn and prostitute orgy every moment, while womens ministry suggest that women are beaten down all the time BY MEN and therefore need building up....This comes in Mother Day and Fathers Day, and in the "marriage series" every preacher preaches occasionally.

Gosh, you wouldn't be exaggerating would you? Why would you feel the need? What bugs you so much about what they're saying that you're reacting so violently. Claiming women are never preached to and the men should be left alone?

FIRST MY REACTION IS NOT VIOLENT, ITS PASSIONATE.

No the shouting isn't a violent reaction at all. Nor the words you're using.

IF YOU JUST FOR A SECOND IMAGINE THAT I WAS CORRECT, EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE,

You'd have to be correct first and you arn't. Prove it and I might actually be interested in what you have to say. So far all I've seen is an angry rant.

THE FAMILY IS DISINTEGRATING IN THE CHURCH AND WE REDOUBLE AND REDOUBLE THE SAME EXACT WORN OUT MANNERS OF ADDRESSING IT.I NEVER SAID MEN SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE...YOU PUT WORDS RIGHT IN MY MOUTH, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW IT. WHEN I SUGGEST ADDING THE OTHER 50%, HOW DOES THAT SUGGEST SUBTRACTING THE EXISTING 50%. MEN NEED THESE ADMONISHMENTS WE GET, IVE NO ISSUE WITH THAT. WHAT IM SAYING IS STEP BACK AND TAKE A LOOK AT  RELATIONSHIPS, MARRIAGES, AND DIVORCE, AND TELL ME AS DR PHIL SAYS, "HOWS THAT WORKIN OUT FOR YA?"  ITS NOT. A CHANGE, SOME CHANGE IS IN ORDER. AND ITS NOT JUST "MORE COW BELL"

And now you're digressing. Deliberatly. Family life is disintegrating in the church because women arn't being preached to and men are being villafied according to you.

Basically, the underlying premise to the video and to the churches presentation is that women are inherantly holier than men....and you want to double that effort?

Really? So Mark Driscoll thinks that all women are superior to him. Funny, but I don't agree, and have to wonder why you're trying to imply that he does.

NO NOT GUESSING WHAT DRISCOL BELIEVES, BUT IF I HAD TO GUESS, HE WOULD NEVER STATE OUTRIGHT THAT WOMEN ARE MORE HOLY THAN MEN, BUT IF ASKED A SERIES OF RELATED QUESTIONS, IT WOULD BE READILY APPARANET THATS WHERE HE IS COMING FROM.
HAVE YOU EVER EVEN IMAGINED THE FEMALE EQUIVALENT OF DRISOLL? THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THEM, AND IF YOU WANT TO REALLY MAKE PEOPLE MAD, BRING THEM UP IN MIXED COMPANY. THE MOST BASIC ONE IS DR LAURA....THOUGH NOT A CHRISTIAN, HER VIEWS ARE A BIT THE FEMALE EQUIVALENT OF DRICOLLS. FOLKS DONT LIKE IT TOO MUCH, AND IT WOULD NOT FLY IF A PREACHER PREACHED SOME OF THE CONCEPTS SHE ESPOUSES THAT ARE CONGRUENT WITH CHRISTIANITY.

So you really do think that Mark Driscoll believes that women are superior to him, (whether you're willing to outrightly admit it or not.) After listening to him on that clip. I still disagree. And you trying to avoid it by drawing comparisons to some female speaker is a cop out.