Author Topic: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!  (Read 1406 times)

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jjeanniton

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Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:32:11 »
Dearly beloved Brethren (and Sisters) in Christ! If you look on Google for "Christian polygyny", you will find HUNDREDS of websites, all of them PATRIARCHALIST, earnestly contending that not only was Polygyny allowed in the OT, but NOTHING in the New Testament can be justly construed to FORBID polygyny. This only serves to emphasize a major contention of mine: No society which refuses to accept the lawfulness of polygyny can be a truly patriarchal society. See: http://freenortherner.com/2014/07/20/patriarchy-civilization/ for the proof. (Note: the author of that website contends that Patriarchy and Civilization are INDISTINGUISHABLE concepts, but we KNOW from the Webster's dictionary that they are easily distinguishable concepts.)

http://freenortherner.com/2014/07/20/patriarchy-civilization/:

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In a society in which men are forced to be monogamous there can be no true patriarchy.


See also: http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM062-Patriarchy.html.

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Patriarchy Without Polygamy: A Contradiction in Terms.

The biblical doctrine of polygamy and patriarchy are one and the same. You cannot separate them.


This proves that the BEST possible way to promote the equality of the sexes is to promote monogamy.

In fact, I have found a CRUCIAL difference between True Patriarchy and Complementarianism. An Egalitarian / Feminist author writes:

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/Patriarchy_or_gender_equality.pdf:

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Scott Bartchy defined Patriarchy this way: “Patriarchy is not just the rule of men over women, but as the rule of a few men over every one else, male and female.  Patriarchy involves not only the subordination of women and children, but also the subordination of most men.”                                                                   

(S. Scott Bartchy, professor of Christian origins and New Testament History at UCLA)

Historically, “few men had a choice about what they would do in life.  It could be observed historically that 90 percent of the population, both male and female, were peasants.  Aside from childbearing, men got stuck with the nastiest and most dangerous work.  Ultimately, however, it is the limitations  of scarcity and the resulting need for women to bear children that allowed men to become dominant over them.”

“The very thing that made a woman valuable—her unique ability to bear children—also made her dependent.”

“Although many scholars claim that men became dominant over women because of man’s superior size, strength, and aggression, historic family structure is better understood as based on a unique female characteristic: women’s ability to bear children.  As the only member of the marriage who could bear and feed children, women would still have ended up specialized to the home, even if they had been bigger and stronger than men.”

“Although the woman may have held considerable power within her domestic areas of concern, a housewife had little decision-making authority or ability outside it. Thus, the strong economic need for women to bear children results in the economic realities of separate spheres for men and women and in women’s subordination to men in family, society, government, and church.”


https://theothoughts.com/2012/08/18/patriarchy-the-third-option-in-the-compegal-debate/:

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I created this brief sketch might be in order to make the distinctions. I also think we need to differentiate between egalitarians and feminists, as there has been confusion there as well. Although, in the context of a biblically grounded church, I find that position untenable leaving three viable options.

Patriarchialism: Hierachical/authoritarian; male headship dictates female participation; female submission enforced; strong emphasis on role differientation and female restrictions; male domination

Complementarianism: Hierachical/non-authoritarian;  male headship encourages female participation within hierarchy of creative order; female submission organic; roles less differientated more complementary;  male cooperation

Egalitarianism: Non-hierarchical/non-authoritarian; mutual authority and submission; roles complementary; male-female cooperation

Feminism: Non-hierarchical/authoritarian; no authority or submission; enforcement of female roles; female dominated; female cooperation

Note that both patriarchy and complementarianism are both hierarchical and affirm male headship. This will result in restrictions for female participation with respect to church leadership in varying forms and depending on church polity. The difference is that patriarchy imposes restrictions and a masculine oriented structure whereas complementarianism results in respect for creative order and equal value. While I am not an egalitarian, I think it is dishonest to portray them as feminists since the emphasis is on shared authority and submission not the absence of it.


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I hold to the position mentioned above called Complementarianism. I believe that men and women are equal before God and that husbands and wives are made to complement each other. I also believe that men are called to be the spiritual leaders of their families and that women are not called to be officers in the Church. I believe that I am to submit to my husband’s leadership and that my husband is to love me sacrificially like Christ demonstrated by dying for the Church. I also believe that my husband and I are both to submit to the leadership of the elders that God has placed over us.

Those who hold to Biblical Patriarchy would probably agree with everything I just outlined. However, this is not what Biblical Patriarchy is about. Instead of sticking to Scripture in defining the roles of men and women in the home, the church, and in society, Biblical Patriarchy starts with Scripture and then branches out into culturally biased opinions. It may seem odd to call it culturally biased, but it is. It owes a lot to the cultural ideals of the Victorian Era, especially the concept of separate spheres.

While it may seem like Biblical Patriarchy and Complementarianism are very similar, or even the same thing, there are very important distinctions between the two. One of the best examples of the differences between Biblical Patriarchy and Complementarianism has to do with women working or holding leadership positions outside the home, in the workforce, or in government.


Go and read it for yourselves with caution. The true Biblical position is that all offices of ecclesiastical jurisdiction are reserved for adult males only. (But this in my mind, raises some questions about whether or not it is lawful for women to serve as mixed choir directors in the Church - never mind about so-called LEADERS of the congregational song as opposed to a quartette choir which leads congregation sing not by haranguing or addressing the assembly but by singing the parts the congregation is to sing usually in 4-part harmony.) And not just because the Church is an arithmetical aggregate of families rather than individuals (with families being the irreducible and elementary unit of the church): but because the Church is the only other divine institution UNIQUELY patterned after the human family.

And here is another important difference.

John Calvin remarked that before the fall, the subjection of Eve to Adam was a liberal and gentle subjection. But after the fall, it was a servile subjection. One of the important differences between True Patriarchy and Complementarianism is that Patriarchy tends to emphasize the SERVILE subjection of the female sex to the male sex and not just merely a liberal and gentle subjection. Patriarchy is EXACTLY what Complementarianism had been TRANSFORMED into only BECAUSE of the Fall and only BECAUSE of the debt of penal servitude the woman incurred for her part in the Fall. It is not just (but on the contrary, uncharitable and unmerciful) to exact payment TWICE for the SAME crime. Such "patriarchy" (which I have differentiated from Complementarianism) was NEVER God's ORIGINAL pre-Fall plan for the sexes.

« Last Edit: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 19:10:40 by jjeanniton »

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Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 17:32:11 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #1 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 18:29:32 »
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This only serves to emphasize a major contention of mine: No society which refuses to accept the lawfulness of polygyny can be a truly patriarchal society.

This is a major contention of yours? Why?

jjeanniton

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #2 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 19:22:36 »
This is a major contention of yours? Why?


I congratulate you on being the first one to respond.

You don't have to take MY word for it that a major contention of mine is that there is no true patriarchy without polygyny. Go and read it for yourself!

http://freenortherner.com/2014/07/20/patriarchy-civilization/:

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    In a society in which men are forced to be monogamous there can be no true patriarchy.

See also: http://www.nccg.org/fecpp/CPM062-Patriarchy.html.

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    Patriarchy Without Polygamy: A Contradiction in Terms.

    The biblical doctrine of polygamy and patriarchy are one and the same. You cannot separate them.

See https://biblicalgenderroles.com/tag/polygyny/, https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/06/05/why-polygamy-is-not-unbiblical-part-1/, http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/08/21/the-biological-case-for-polygyny-and-marriage-of-young-women, for more testimony from the Patriarchalists THEMSELVES!

Maxim: Confessio facta in judicio omni probatione major est: A confession made in court is of greater effect than any proof. Jenk. Cent. 102.
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 19:41:01 by jjeanniton »

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #2 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 19:22:36 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #3 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:02:35 »
Firstly men are not FORCED to be monogamous, they chose to be because its the right thing and in line with Gods word for us as Christians. Even most non Christians know this is right. The men I know are more than happy to be in a good marriage with one women and one man.

Secondly its entirely Biblical for Christians to have just one wife or one husband.  Paul says, in 1 Corinthians, 'Let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband' Pretty simple really.
 
Thirdly, even Solomon with all his women he had had said towards the end of his life 'Be faithful to the wife of your youth'.Yes he had learnt his lesson and gained wisdom.

Forthly, not once in the NT is marriage ever referred to as being between more than one woman or more that one man. Its always wife singular and husband singular.Church leaders are told not to be the husband or more than one woman.

5th, God's desire has always been for marriage between one man and one woman. See Gensis which Jesus reaffirms in the gospels. 'The man shall leave his father and mother and join to his wife'. He could easily have created many wives for Adam and got the world populated more quickly, but he chose to create one woman. That wasand is his standard and desire.

6th, in most countries of the word its ilegal to have more than one wife, and we are told to obey the leaders and laws of our land. IF a man or women has more than one partner, then they are only actually married to one of them, the other one is a lover which is adultery. Keep the marriage bed(singular) pure is what we are told in Gods word.
« Last Edit: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:16:50 by chosenone »

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #3 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:02:35 »

jjeanniton

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #4 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:17:22 »
Firstly men are not FORCED to be monogamous, they chose to be because its the right thing and in line with Gods word for us as Christians. All the men I know are more than happy to be in a good marriage with one women and one man.
Secondly its entirely Biblical for Christians to have one wife or one husband.  Paul says, 'Let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband' Pretty simple really.


But any true Patriarchalist however, will insist that your reply is not a SUFFICIENT reply to my post nor to their arguments WHY nothing in the New Testament can justly be construed to forbid polygyny. The burden of proof is on the anti-polygynists!

Please read https://biblicalgenderroles.com/tag/polygyny/, https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/06/05/why-polygamy-is-not-unbiblical-part-1/, http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/08/21/the-biological-case-for-polygyny-and-marriage-of-young-women, for more testimony from the Patriarchalists THEMSELVES! It illustrates the ACTUAL tendency of True Patriarchy.

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #4 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:17:22 »



Offline chosenone

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #5 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:22:20 »
Be faithful to your own wife and give your love to her alone. 16 Children that you have by other women will do you no good. 17 Your children should grow up to help you, not strangers. 18 So be happy with your wife and find your joy with the woman you married - 19 pretty and graceful as a deer. Let her charms keep you happy; let her surround you with her love.

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #5 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:22:20 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #6 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:29:00 »
But any true Patriarchalist however, will insist that your reply is not a SUFFICIENT reply to my post nor to their arguments WHY nothing in the New Testament can justly be construed to forbid polygyny. The burden of proof is on the anti-polygynists!

Please read https://biblicalgenderroles.com/tag/polygyny/, https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/06/05/why-polygamy-is-not-unbiblical-part-1/, http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/08/21/the-biological-case-for-polygyny-and-marriage-of-young-women, for more testimony from the Patriarchalists THEMSELVES! It illustrates the ACTUAL tendency of True Patriarchy.


They can insist all they like. and of course if they are intent on cheating on their wife with women they arent actually married to that's for them to have to give account to God for.We all know that people will try and justify anything if they want to do it enough. Just as Joseph Smith made up that story about an angel suppedly teling him that what he had been doing for ages(having sex with many women) was ok. How very convenient for him.   
I see nowhere in Gods word that says its what God ever wanted or intended, but just something that He allowed for a time before Jesus came.




Offline soterion

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #7 on: Sat Apr 14, 2018 - 23:58:35 »
Dearly beloved Brethren (and Sisters) in Christ! If you look on Google for "Christian polygyny", you will find HUNDREDS of websites, all of them PATRIARCHALIST, earnestly contending that not only was Polygyny allowed in the OT, but NOTHING in the New Testament can be justly construed to FORBID polygyny.

Matthew 19:3-9.
And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?”

He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh’?  So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”


1. The joining together of a man and his wife makes them one flesh. For the purpose of this line of reasoning, the definition of adultery is, "Becoming one flesh with somebody other than your current spouse."
2. To divorce his wife and then cling to another is considered adultery (if the divorce is not for what Jesus said is lawful).
3. If the divorce was not for the cause Jesus said is lawful, then the divorce is invalid and the two are still one flesh. That is why to cling to another wife, even after a government approved divorce, is considered adultery. The marriage contract with the first wife is being broken despite the divorce paper from the courthouse.
4. Given this line of reasoning, to have more than one wife at a time is adultery. God forbids that a man be one flesh with more than one woman at a time.

If the above is considered correct, then both polyandry and polygyny should be considered forbidden by God.
« Last Edit: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 00:08:39 by soterion »

Offline Open Heart

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #8 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 23:28:49 »
While polygyny is certainly abusively patriarchal, it is not the only form of patriarchy.  Patriarchy can exist in monogamous systems as well.


Consider the Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles.  While monogamous, it teaches an extreme form of patriarchy where women are to be subservient, and daughters are the property of the father until they are passed to their husbands. Indeed there have been terrible troubles associated with child brides and bride selling associated with Gothard's movement.  For those who have never heard of it, the IBLP provides literature and curriculum for home schoolers in the more conservative fundamentalist corner of the home schooling world.

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #8 on: Sun Apr 15, 2018 - 23:28:49 »

jjeanniton

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #9 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 06:36:19 »
While polygyny is certainly abusively patriarchal, it is not the only form of patriarchy.  Patriarchy can exist in monogamous systems as well.


Consider the Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles.  While monogamous, it teaches an extreme form of patriarchy where women are to be subservient, and daughters are the property of the father until they are passed to their husbands. Indeed there have been terrible troubles associated with child brides and bride selling associated with Gothard's movement.  For those who have never heard of it, the IBLP provides literature and curriculum for home schoolers in the more conservative fundamentalist corner of the home schooling world.

But the stand that the Gothard Institute has taken in accepting patriarchy yet rejecting polygyny is internally and logically inconsistent.

Offline RB

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #10 on: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 08:00:03 »
Dearly beloved Brethren (and Sisters) in Christ! If you look on Google for "Christian polygyny", you will find HUNDREDS of websites, all of them PATRIARCHALIST, earnestly contending that not only was Polygyny allowed in the OT, but NOTHING in the New Testament can be justly construed to FORBID polygyny.
While I agree with this, a society can be patriarchy without practising polygyny.

The ideal marriage per God in one man with one woman. In the beginning, God did not bring Adam more than ONE woman to be his helpmeet. He created only ONE woman for Adam which should tell us that it is much better for a man to be married to ONE woman than having more than one at a time. Every man in the scriptures that had more than one wife at a time, HAD TROUBLES. Start with Abraham then go to Jacob, then to David, etc. Isaac had the best marriage of three mentioned~wonder why?

It is not a sin to have more than one at a time, just adding more care and trouble to one's life. But, if man takes more than one at a time, he CANNOT take a woman who has a living husband, that would be living IN adultery~David took Abigail ONLY after her husband died.   

« Last Edit: Mon Apr 16, 2018 - 08:02:26 by RB »

jjeanniton

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #11 on: Wed May 09, 2018 - 14:10:13 »
While I agree with this, a society can be patriarchy without practising polygyny.


I do not agree with your objection. Please read https://biblicalgenderroles.com/tag/polygyny/, https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/06/05/why-polygamy-is-not-unbiblical-part-1/, http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/08/21/the-biological-case-for-polygyny-and-marriage-of-young-women, for more testimony from the Patriarchalists THEMSELVES! It illustrates the ACTUAL tendency of True Patriarchy.

In fact, here is some MORE evidence for the TRUTH of my thesis. In Reply #28 of the topic "Eve's First Estate", the user named Justin Mangonel states that:

Dear C,

I wonder where your vendetta against polygamy really springs from.  It seems much more than a mere doctrinal disagreement.  To me, I don't care whether a man has one or more wives and I don't loose sleep over it. 

There is a terrible strain of self righteousness that runs through the older and more established denominations.  Many of them have believed error for centuries and they think that the "age" of their misinterpretation lends credence to it.  However, heresy does not age as well as wine and what was wrong them is just as wrong today. 

Some people mistakenly think, though, that they must protect anything they have been taught with passion in order to be true to Christ (which often times means the same thing as being true to their particular church.)  In fact, the less familiar they are with the scriptures the more they gnash their teeth when someone says something that violates their view of things.

I think that the discussion about polygamy is indicative of this type of blind obedience to the what has been taught rather than honestly and dispassionately letting the scriptures speak to for themselves.  It becomes a personal inquisition and passion rules where truth should reign. 

The women of our generation are fast slipping into and being taken over by the spirit of the Harlot Church.  They seek to dominate rather than submit.  Once they leave their first estate they are open to practically anything. 

Women no longer keep quiet in church but get up and even compete with men.  Humble dress is no longer enough for them but they begin to morph into fashion statements that testify of their perfection rather than the perfection of their bridegroom.  They wish to be perfect in beauty. 

Paul states that there will come a time when people will not endure sound doctrine and that is particularly so when it comes to the doctrine of submission.  The discussion of polygamy brings this type of matriarchal spirit to the forefront particularly well.  Women today think of themselves so highly that they would never allow another woman in their home (such as Sara did) no matter what. If it was up to them Jacob would have remained married to Leah for what God has joined together let no man put asunder.  They would despise Abigale as a opportunistic woman.  Even though the queen of Sheba said of Solomon that the half had not been told they, of course, would look down their noses at any of his wives. Today, women are so righteously superior they feel comfortable judging even David as a lustful man when even God said He was a man after His own heart.  Some women feel very comfortable railing against men that they do not agree with even though these men are made in the image of God. 

I do not like the matriarchal spirit and I think it is a precursor to the Harlot spirit of the one world church. 

blessings,

Justin


« Last Edit: Sun Jun 17, 2018 - 15:37:57 by jjeanniton »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Why there CANNOT be any True Patriarchy without Polygyny!
« Reply #12 on: Sun Jul 08, 2018 - 15:01:42 »
But any true Patriarchalist however, will insist that your reply is not a SUFFICIENT reply to my post nor to their arguments WHY nothing in the New Testament can justly be construed to forbid polygyny. The burden of proof is on the anti-polygynists!

Please read https://biblicalgenderroles.com/tag/polygyny/, https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/06/05/why-polygamy-is-not-unbiblical-part-1/, http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/08/21/the-biological-case-for-polygyny-and-marriage-of-young-women, for more testimony from the Patriarchalists THEMSELVES! It illustrates the ACTUAL tendency of True Patriarchy.
 

Let each man have his own wife and let each women have her own husband is clearly against more than one wife or husband. Keep the marriage bed pure also.

 

     
anything