Author Topic: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"  (Read 332 times)

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Offline PeterEnergy

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Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 08:42:50 »
Although John 3:16 is often seen at sporting events, I happen to be flipping through Every Man’s Study Bible NLT. This passage struck me and is an example of why people say you should read the Bible, lead by the Holy Spirit and you will see the light.

I read Genesis about a month ago via the CEV translation and did not grasp this provocative verse. None of my other translations had it either or than the NLT. Using Biblegateway.com, here is what I found regarding all English translations. (Now, remember, the context is God dishing out punishment for the Original Sin.)

Literal Translation
~32 translations say desire, including CEV, VOICE, NKJV & NIV
   Then the Lord said to the woman, “You will suffer terribly when you give birth. But you will still desire your husband, and he will rule over you.”
   

Thought Translations
NLT   Then he said to the woman, “I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.”

ESV   To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”

EXB   Then God said to the woman, “I will ·cause you to have much trouble [or increase your pain] ·when you are pregnant [in childbearing], and when you give birth to children, you will have great pain. You will greatly desire [C the word implies a desire to control; 4:7] your husband, but he will rule over you.”   


Misandry Translation?
MSG   He told the Woman: “I’ll multiply your pains in childbirth; you’ll give birth to your babies in pain. You’ll want to please your husband, but he’ll lord it over you.”

This makes it seem as though women are innocent victims of man’s dominance. All she wants to do is please him. All he wants to do is “lord over her” the fact that all she wants to do is please him. Yea, right!

Now, here is the question; given the Battle of the Sexes, is the proper interpretation that God not only made child birth difficult, but also made woman want to give shit tests, to have desire contrary to a man’s and want to control him?

In other words, Ge 3:16 is not merely stating the way it is; it is listing the punishments for Original Sin. I used to think the verse meant, that despite painful childbirth, women will still desire sex, motherhood and marriage. Now, it seems the thought translations of the verse is adding to the punishment: painful childbirth AND lack of peace between men and women, always at odds (contrary desires) and fighting for control.

This makes the Battle of Sexes the ongoing punishment from God, challenging the claim He is all loving, merciful and forgiving methinks. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 08:47:50 by PeterEnergy »

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Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 08:42:50 »

Offline soterion

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #1 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 08:58:10 »
This makes the Battle of Sexes the ongoing punishment from God, challenging the claim He is all loving, merciful and forgiving methinks. Thoughts?[/font][/size]

I have to say that God wants peace and cooperation between people, not conflict, and any interpretation of any portion of scripture that makes God out to not be all loving, merciful and forgiving is flat wrong.

Also, the use of the foul word in the post is unnecessary and no doubt contrary to board rules, methinks.

Offline PeterEnergy

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #2 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 09:30:20 »
Quote
I have to say that God wants peace and cooperation between people, not conflict, and any interpretation of any portion of scripture that makes God out to not be all loving, merciful and forgiving is flat wrong.

Well, there are many verses about how God hardened the hearts of people.

Despite this, if your position is that God is all loving, merciful and forgiving despite how the Scriptures read, that implies universalism.

However, my question is less about theology and more about fact. Does the passage mean despite painful childbirth, women will still desire sex, motherhood and marriage OR adding to the punishment: painful childbirth AND lack of peace between men and women, always at odds (contrary desires) and fighting for control?

Offline soterion

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 11:27:12 »
Well, there are many verses about how God hardened the hearts of people.

Despite this, if your position is that God is all loving, merciful and forgiving despite how the Scriptures read, that implies universalism.

However, my question is less about theology and more about fact. Does the passage mean despite painful childbirth, women will still desire sex, motherhood and marriage OR adding to the punishment: painful childbirth AND lack of peace between men and women, always at odds (contrary desires) and fighting for control?

Well, if your definition of "all loving, merciful and forgiving" places the emphasis on "all" to mean "toward every single person in very context no matter what," then that would be Universalism.

However, in that description of God I define "all" as meaning "wholly" or "completely." That God is wholly or completely loving, merciful, and forgiving does not erxclude His work of justice and condemnation when it is called for. God does not force His grace on those who do not want it.

As for the relationship between the man and the woman, God put enmity between the woman and the serpent, not between the woman and the man. Any contentions and conflicts between men and women are created by people, not by God. It is not God's design to have the man and woman be in conflict.

I would have to say that you are reading something into the passage that it does not say.

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #3 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 11:27:12 »
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Offline PeterEnergy

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 14:29:48 »
Quote
I would have to say that you are reading something into the passage that it does not say.

Untrue. I quoted Scripture from numerous translations. You are just spouting your opinion disconnected from Scripture. For instance, the issue of enmity between the woman and the snake is true but besides the point.

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #4 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 14:29:48 »



Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #5 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 18:31:22 »
From the translation note in the NET:

tn Heb “and toward your husband [will be] your desire.” The nominal sentence does not have a verb; a future verb must be supplied, because the focus of the oracle is on the future struggle. The precise meaning of the noun תְּשׁוּקָה (teshuqah, “desire”) is debated. Many interpreters conclude that it refers to sexual desire here, because the subject of the passage is the relationship between a wife and her husband, and because the word is used in a romantic sense in Song 7:11 HT (7:10 ET). However, this interpretation makes little sense in Gen 3:16. First, it does not fit well with the assertion “he will dominate you.” Second, it implies that sexual desire was not part of the original creation, even though the man and the woman were told to multiply. And third, it ignores the usage of the word in Gen 4:7 where it refers to sin’s desire to control and dominate Cain. (Even in Song of Songs it carries the basic idea of “control,” for it describes the young man’s desire to “have his way sexually” with the young woman.) In Gen 3:16 the LORD announces a struggle, a conflict between the man and the woman. She will desire to control him, but he will dominate her instead. This interpretation also fits the tone of the passage, which is a judgment oracle. See further Susan T. Foh, “What is the Woman’s Desire?” WTJ 37 (1975): 376-83.

tn The Hebrew verb מָשַׁל (mashal) means “to rule over,” but in a way that emphasizes powerful control, domination, or mastery. This also is part of the baser human nature. The translation assumes the imperfect verb form has an objective/indicative sense here. Another option is to understand it as having a modal, desiderative nuance, “but he will want to dominate you.” In this case, the LORD simply announces the struggle without indicating who will emerge victorious.

Also a study note:

sn This passage is a judgment oracle. It announces that conflict between man and woman will become the norm in human society. It does not depict the NT ideal, where the husband sacrificially loves his wife, as Christ loved the church, and where the wife recognizes the husband’s loving leadership in the family and voluntarily submits to it. Sin produces a conflict or power struggle between the man and the woman, but in Christ man and woman call a truce and live harmoniously (Eph 5:18-32).

FTR, I read the Eph. passage as teaching mutual submission, not unilateral submission by the wife.

Offline PeterEnergy

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #6 on: Mon Jan 07, 2019 - 18:50:08 »
Thank you NorrinRadd for that thoughtful post.

Offline soterion

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #7 on: Tue Jan 08, 2019 - 07:32:00 »
NorrinRadd, the issue here for me is not so much what does this or that word mean, but if the following is true (from the OP):

Quote
Now, it seems the thought translations of the verse is adding to the punishment: painful childbirth AND lack of peace between men and women, always at odds (contrary desires) and fighting for control.

Quote
This makes the Battle of Sexes the ongoing punishment from God, challenging the claim He is all loving, merciful and forgiving methinks.

I say absolutely no way to both notions (that God meant for men and women to be at odds and to have opposing desires and struggles for control, as punishment for Original Sin, and that such a view should challenge our understanding of God as being all loving, merciful and forgiving).

Whatever lack of peace exists between husbands and wives, or even just men and women in general, is produced by people, not by God.

Offline PeterEnergy

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #8 on: Tue Jan 08, 2019 - 08:42:26 »
Quote
Whatever lack of peace exists between husbands and wives, or even just men and women in general, is produced by people, not by God.

Because of NorrinRadd's excellent contribution to this thread, I now find peace with Ge 3:16. Strife between men and women who are not in a covenant relationship with God is divinely ordained.

(You can be offended at my observation that God of the Bible may not be all loving, etc and not share that conclusion. If you want me to "take back" saying God is not all loving, I won't and we will have to agree to disagree. Although the issue of strife between men and women can be avoided if they are in a covenant relationship with God, that does not take away from punishing an innocent animal and his descendants for all time for what Satan did. Forgive me for not sharing your theology fully.)

However, I am now sorry that I added that commentary in the OP for it served as a distraction from the main point, which is Ge 3:16 and God imposing punishment (curse, some say) of women having desires contrary and controlling of men.  Ge 3:16 is clear enough, especially when reading the commentaries. Another friend concluded Satan has perverted the desire women are to have to their husbands into the Feminist movement, Me Too movement and the attitude of controlling their men/husbands.

Offline soterion

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Re: Ge 3:16 Desire "For" OR "To Control?"
« Reply #9 on: Tue Jan 08, 2019 - 11:01:36 »
(You can be offended at my observation that God of the Bible may not be all loving, etc and not share that conclusion. If you want me to "take back" saying God is not all loving, I won't and we will have to agree to disagree. Although the issue of strife between men and women can be avoided if they are in a covenant relationship with God, that does not take away from punishing an innocent animal and his descendants for all time for what Satan did. Forgive me for not sharing your theology fully.)

We are not two 10 year olds in a schoolyard, insulting each other back and forth. We are merely having a disagreement in an open debate.

 

     
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