I'm NOT a UNCONDITIONAL fatalistic Chrisitan when it comes to our duty as a child of God. Proverbs 25:28 was given by God to Solomon for a reason, if you I do not understand how what I have written is "fatalistic"!
do not like my main point in overcoming sin, then you must also reject the wise man's exhortation as well. Too bad, but you should NOT be spreading fatalistic teaching among men seeking help to overcome sin in their life....MEN HAVE A GOD GIVEN DUTY to work OUT their own salvation with fear and trembling~and that starts with RULING ONE'S SPIRIT. God is NOT going to do that for us. Dave_UK~about if we SUBMIT to his TEACHINGS, isn't that allowing him to lead us? I think it is.
What you say about working out ones own salvation etc - is right, as Paul has taught us in his epistles! But since we are also told "all have sinned"- the Lord knew in His omniscience, before creating Adam, that we would assuredly "fall short" and would require a "Substitute" to be found, to reconcile us to Himself. That pure, holy and righteous Substitute promised on His return to the Father to send us the Holy Spirit, to be our Advocate and guide, as described in Joel's prophesy. I get the feeling that you rather "down-grade" the influence of the Holy Spirit in our lives - after all, "the curse of man" is doing things his way, and not the Lord's way.
I do not think that any Christian has been misled by the leading of the "Indwelling Spirit", if there were to be any departure from the principles presented in Scripture, that would be an instant "give-away", that one was surely being misled by the forces of darkness - Satan masquerading as an angel of light!
I find it rather disturbing that Paul in his epistles mentions (I think - without checking!) "Those whom He knew, He also predestined", also references to being "sealed" by the gift of the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption - this is a thought-provoking matter worth delving into! The very word "pre-destined" does suggest an uncomfortable degree of "fatalism"- i.e. "it's all been sorted out" before we have even been born!
Last night I checked in the NKJV concordance over the location of the relevant Scriptures. It is now a struggle for me to remember passages of text that I need to guide me in life - remembering their actual location as well, would be rather difficult for me - the memory sadly does not improve with advancing age! In any case, it is the passages themselves which are the most important - ones that the Lord has "spot-lighted" to me in my readings of The Word!
On "predestined" Rom 8:29, Eph 1:5 and Eph 1:11 seem to be the key passages - while for "sealed" they are 2 Cor 1:22 and Eph 4:30
The Romans passage writes of a "standard" so high, that I doubt that we might ever attain in our own strength - but with God, all things are possible!
IMO Solomon's proverbs describe the normal/expected outcomes of human actions, but there are apparent exceptions that we see around us in everyday life. What a fine start Solomon made, and what a "pointer" to right living in his proverbs - but what a sad end he made of his life (self-pleasing
- vide Eccles 2:10), and drawn into idolatry by his many foreign wives. So the man said to be the wisest ever - was in the end, just a fool like us! The Word gives us the story of David, without passing over his mistakes (e.g. the "miserly-like" delight in wanting to count what troops he could call upon, forgetting that "The battle belongs to the Lord") and failings - the tragic story of Uriah/Bathsheba) What sorrow he received as the result of them! We are so grateful for David's psalms, to which we so often refer, in our time of need as they speak to most of our human conditions. David in one of his psalms addressed the point I mentioned above, about how the proverbs don't always seem to line-up with everyday experience Psalm 73:13-17. "So it was all in vain that I kept my heart pure ... until ..."!
It is the common story of humanity - so often we err! Yet, God in His loving concern for us, provided the solution - justification through Jesus Work of the Cross, and sanctification through the Holy Spirit Jesus promised to send upon us - living in obedience to His leading/correction. It's all about the Lord - not us!
Referring to your statement : -"MEN HAVE A GOD GIVEN DUTY to work OUT their own salvation with fear and trembling~and that starts with RULING ONE'S SPIRIT. God is NOT going to do that for us"
I think we need to be clear about what is meant by "ONES SPIRIT"
- this may not
be what is commonly supposed!
Even "the base" must get some twinges of conscience at their wrong actions - unless hopelessly lost, with consciences "seared" by continual wrong-doing!
Doesn't Scripture say that "When men do right they are obeying God's law written upon their hearts!"? IMO our conscience is just the first "sentinel?!" concerning what we should, or should not do
(our consciences may "burn" us!), in some particular circumstance. But our "conscience" is from our unregenerate selves (even non-Christians have it!) - "The Indwelling Spirit" (resident Boss
) is a gift from the Lord (at our "second birth"?! - re Jesus comments to Nicodemus in John 3:3-7) and will guide us into all truth, reminding us of everything that Jesus said/did - to "shape" our decisions. If a man does not have the spirit of Christ - he is no Christian!
Think it is a very, very special, event in our lives, when this "second birth" occurs. I call it being "touched by the Lord" - every thing is so different from that time on! Everyone's recounting of that incident is so varied - but the result is the same!
I could have danced through the streets at the over-powering joy that came upon me - all seemingly started as a result of a prayer at an altar rail in a service with the "laying on of hands", that I might know the Lord more nearly. (The next day I climbed to the top of a hill to be alone and offer myself, as best I could, to the Lord. However I have come to realize with the passing years, that such an offering or presenting of oneself, is not a "one-off" thing, but needs to be an almost daily act! (*)
There is also the matter, that as we commonly say "Many are called - but few are chosen." I won't go into that here!). Although, I think there had been a gradual lead-up to that "touch" beforehand, at the conclusion of a similar service - when for a long while, I just wept and wept silently with tears rolling down the cheeks, although strangely. not actually knowing the reason, or feeling any emotion whatever on my part
. Maybe it was a "washing away" of the dregs of my life!?Am sure that there is a great deal that is still wrong in my everyday life - and that others are "light-years" ahead/better than I - so my "walk with the Lord" is very much a "work in progress".
Having a low'ish opinion of myself - I sometimes ask the Lord to help me "take the lowest place" and not be "puffed up" with any supposed
pride. There is really
nothing whatever for me to be proud about (as Paul tells us "All our supposed righteousness is as filthy rags!") Am just overwhelmingly grateful for the Lord's mercy and grace - how "long-suffering" He is! *
This business of yielding/presenting ourselves to the Lord ("as a living sacrifice"!) - is a "touchy matter" for some of us, with concerns over family welfare and savings set aside for family future needs etc,. Think a lot has been said about this which just "boils down" to the fact that - The Holy Spirit is not "pushy" in any way - He is courteous and gentle, and will only fill and use that which is voluntarily offered to Him.
So if little "control" is handed to Him, we cannot be surprised if there is little evidence of His presence in our lives. That brings us back to Paul's assertion "Christ in you the hope of glory to come" What have we done with Christ "in us"!? I am ashamed when I think how little evidence exists of Christ being present in my own life!