Author Topic: Modesty for MEN?  (Read 3878 times)

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Offline Daemon Blackfyre

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Sep 15, 2016 - 10:08:11 »
McDonald’s customers dress casually, often like slobs, because they’re just consumers, only there for themselves.  And, the McDonald’s employees are there for the money, but they have a dress code imposed on them by their employer.  They’re paid to show customers respect, and therefor they have a dress code.
Nah, the uniform is more like advertising as well as an identifier of the service. "This human is a fleshy component of the machine that makes your terrible food, ask them stuff".
 
It’s a fair point that the church should be like a family, not a business.  But, there are similarities.  A mere consumer of church offerings is like a consumer at McDonald’s.  They dress casually because they’re only there for themselves.   The more consumer-oriented a church is, the more casually dressed the parishioners are.
I don't belong to a family to consume off them neither am I employed by them. Also, I don't think the Australian Uniting Church divides themselves into parishes, so I guess congregate is more accurate. I will give you that we're encouraged to participate in programmes in the communities and at services, we'll have a cuppa afterwords to break the ice so I guess we both have food.

McDonald’s employees adhere to a dress code out of motivation of wages.   A respectful parishioner who has respect would show that respect in attire without the motivation of wages.
A uniform is a prerequisite to being employed. Some arbitrary standard of dress is not a prerequisite for congregating with people to celebrate a common belief.

But, you wear jeans when you’re just vegetating and watching TV and home?   A Church service isn't like vegetating in front of a TV.  It’s more of a formal family gathering where guests in invited.  Maybe even more like a wedding feast.  Billy Bob’s family might wear jeans to a wedding, but that’s because his family is boorish.  A church should lift people up, not pull them down. 
Oh, nah, I'm less than boorish. I go around the house in a pair of boxers. Unless it's colder, I might slip on a shirt or a hoodie. If there's guests I'm less familiar with, I'll slip on some trackies. I mean you're sounding like a proper posh geeza now.

Anyway, do you know what I'm not when I'm at formal events? Comfortable. I'm not and if I want to celebrate God and his mercy, I don't want to do it in an uncomfortable setting feeling uncomfortable around other people who feel uncomfortable. I think this is where you say that Australian culture has descended into sordid, secular madness but hey.

The modern church is culturally ineffectual because the modern church is filled with mere consumers, and their attire shows it.  Church has become a business.  Pastors are getting degrees in marketing and communications then they calculate how to best entertain people to get people through the door.  When you wear jeans to church, you are treating attending Church like a visit to McDonald’s.
Don't eat at maccas. Take it from somebody from behind the scene, don't put that stuff anywhere near your god.

Also "come actively do things" isn't a very passive form of consumption. See, at my church people are genuinely happy to be there and get involved. At maccas, people who barely pretend to care about you give you food you pretend is worth the money. There's a gap there.

Notice the posts of people who disagree with me.  They self-centeredly declare that dressing casually is more comfortable.  They’ve taken verses out of context to rationalize their casual dress. My argument about the modern church being culturally ineffectual has gone unanswered.  Their posts bear witness against them.
No, dude, the tone is more comfortable. The people look more comfortable. They're talking to eachother, they're kicking back, they're happy to talk about the joy of Jesus Christ. If you go to a church that I think you're talking about because I tried other churches when I decided recently to give Jesus ago again, before I came back to my childhood church, there were these churches where everyone dressed nice and there was a bloke in a well done robe and they sat in their pews and it was the single most soul draining thing on the planet.

Also, define culturally ineffectual. I'm pretty sure a culture which is dwindling is ineffectual. One that engages with the community around it might have a bit more of an effect.

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #35 on: Thu Sep 15, 2016 - 10:08:11 »

Offline Carey

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #36 on: Thu Sep 15, 2016 - 14:54:14 »
McDonald’s customers dress casually, often like slobs, because they’re just consumers, only there for themselves.  And, the McDonald’s employees are there for the money, but they have a dress code imposed on them by their employer.  They’re paid to show customers respect, and therefor they have a dress code.
Nah, the uniform is more like advertising as well as an identifier of the service. "This human is a fleshy component of the machine that makes your terrible food, ask them stuff".
 
It’s a fair point that the church should be like a family, not a business.  But, there are similarities.  A mere consumer of church offerings is like a consumer at McDonald’s.  They dress casually because they’re only there for themselves.   The more consumer-oriented a church is, the more casually dressed the parishioners are.
I don't belong to a family to consume off them neither am I employed by them. Also, I don't think the Australian Uniting Church divides themselves into parishes, so I guess congregate is more accurate. I will give you that we're encouraged to participate in programmes in the communities and at services, we'll have a cuppa afterwords to break the ice so I guess we both have food.

McDonald’s employees adhere to a dress code out of motivation of wages.   A respectful parishioner who has respect would show that respect in attire without the motivation of wages.
A uniform is a prerequisite to being employed. Some arbitrary standard of dress is not a prerequisite for congregating with people to celebrate a common belief.

But, you wear jeans when you’re just vegetating and watching TV and home?   A Church service isn't like vegetating in front of a TV.  It’s more of a formal family gathering where guests in invited.  Maybe even more like a wedding feast.  Billy Bob’s family might wear jeans to a wedding, but that’s because his family is boorish.  A church should lift people up, not pull them down. 
Oh, nah, I'm less than boorish. I go around the house in a pair of boxers. Unless it's colder, I might slip on a shirt or a hoodie. If there's guests I'm less familiar with, I'll slip on some trackies. I mean you're sounding like a proper posh geeza now.

Anyway, do you know what I'm not when I'm at formal events? Comfortable. I'm not and if I want to celebrate God and his mercy, I don't want to do it in an uncomfortable setting feeling uncomfortable around other people who feel uncomfortable. I think this is where you say that Australian culture has descended into sordid, secular madness but hey.

The modern church is culturally ineffectual because the modern church is filled with mere consumers, and their attire shows it.  Church has become a business.  Pastors are getting degrees in marketing and communications then they calculate how to best entertain people to get people through the door.  When you wear jeans to church, you are treating attending Church like a visit to McDonald’s.
Don't eat at maccas. Take it from somebody from behind the scene, don't put that stuff anywhere near your god.

Also "come actively do things" isn't a very passive form of consumption. See, at my church people are genuinely happy to be there and get involved. At maccas, people who barely pretend to care about you give you food you pretend is worth the money. There's a gap there.

Notice the posts of people who disagree with me.  They self-centeredly declare that dressing casually is more comfortable.  They’ve taken verses out of context to rationalize their casual dress. My argument about the modern church being culturally ineffectual has gone unanswered.  Their posts bear witness against them.
No, dude, the tone is more comfortable. The people look more comfortable. They're talking to eachother, they're kicking back, they're happy to talk about the joy of Jesus Christ. If you go to a church that I think you're talking about because I tried other churches when I decided recently to give Jesus ago again, before I came back to my childhood church, there were these churches where everyone dressed nice and there was a bloke in a well done robe and they sat in their pews and it was the single most soul draining thing on the planet.

Also, define culturally ineffectual. I'm pretty sure a culture which is dwindling is ineffectual. One that engages with the community around it might have a bit more of an effect.

Well said Daemon,  ::headscratch::  maybe well said is not the best response, you talk funny.   ::noworries::  What I mean to say is I agree with ya brother.   ::tippinghat::

Offline Daemon Blackfyre

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #37 on: Thu Sep 15, 2016 - 18:17:38 »

Well said Daemon,  ::headscratch::  maybe well said is not the best response, you talk funny.   ::noworries::  What I mean to say is I agree with ya brother.   ::tippinghat::
I'm a fairdinkum Aussie bogan, through and through.

Offline Tertullian

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #38 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 08:04:05 »
Nah, the uniform is more like advertising as well as an identifier of the service.

If it were just a visor and a vest, the argument of advertising and identifier of the service would be sufficient.  But, the McDonald’s dress code goes far beyond that.  Black pants, black shoes, remove facial piercings, cover tattoos, etc.  Practically all businesses, outside of dirty labor jobs, have significant dress codes, such as prohibition of blue jeans, even when the business has no specific clothes that represent the business or an employee.   

Quote
Also, define culturally ineffectual. I'm pretty sure a culture which is dwindling is ineffectual. One that engages with the community around it might have a bit more of an effect.

I don’t know about your part of the world, but America use to have a very strong Christian culture.  In the last Fifty years, that culture has been destroyed, exactly parallel to the rise of the casual church.  Fifty years ago, Christianity was respected in television and movies, now it’s only mocked.  Fifty years ago, a Christian could live by his values, but now those values are illegal.  Fifty years ago, public schools allowed student faith, but now they implicitly teach that God is false.  Church attendance has been falling rapidly.  People identifying themselves as Christian is in decline. 

For most modern Christian, church is nothing but a deistic social club with Sunday concert music and a motivational speech.  Christianity for the casual Christian is nothing but an opiate.  You feel good, but it’s useless.   Casual Christians want to be casual while denying their Christianity is casual.  But, sorry, causal is as casual does.

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #38 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 08:04:05 »
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Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #39 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 08:51:38 »
Nah, the uniform is more like advertising as well as an identifier of the service.

If it were just a visor and a vest, the argument of advertising and identifier of the service would be sufficient.  But, the McDonald’s dress code goes far beyond that.  Black pants, black shoes, remove facial piercings, cover tattoos, etc.  Practically all businesses, outside of dirty labor jobs, have significant dress codes, such as prohibition of blue jeans, even when the business has no specific clothes that represent the business or an employee.   

Quote
Also, define culturally ineffectual. I'm pretty sure a culture which is dwindling is ineffectual. One that engages with the community around it might have a bit more of an effect.

I don’t know about your part of the world, but America use to have a very strong Christian culture.  In the last Fifty years, that culture has been destroyed, exactly parallel to the rise of the casual church.  Fifty years ago, Christianity was respected in television and movies, now it’s only mocked.  Fifty years ago, a Christian could live by his values, but now those values are illegal.  Fifty years ago, public schools allowed student faith, but now they implicitly teach that God is false.  Church attendance has been falling rapidly.  People identifying themselves as Christian is in decline. 

For most modern Christian, church is nothing but a deistic social club with Sunday concert music and a motivational speech.  Christianity for the casual Christian is nothing but an opiate.  You feel good, but it’s useless.   Casual Christians want to be casual while denying their Christianity is casual.  But, sorry, causal is as casual does.

I must be part of the wrong church then.  I don't wear a suit, but I am not getting feel good sermons, concert music, or a deistic social club.

 ::frown::

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #39 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 08:51:38 »



Offline Carey

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #40 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 11:40:12 »
Nah, the uniform is more like advertising as well as an identifier of the service.

If it were just a visor and a vest, the argument of advertising and identifier of the service would be sufficient.  But, the McDonald’s dress code goes far beyond that.  Black pants, black shoes, remove facial piercings, cover tattoos, etc.  Practically all businesses, outside of dirty labor jobs, have significant dress codes, such as prohibition of blue jeans, even when the business has no specific clothes that represent the business or an employee.   

Quote
Also, define culturally ineffectual. I'm pretty sure a culture which is dwindling is ineffectual. One that engages with the community around it might have a bit more of an effect.

I don’t know about your part of the world, but America use to have a very strong Christian culture.  In the last Fifty years, that culture has been destroyed, exactly parallel to the rise of the casual church.  Fifty years ago, Christianity was respected in television and movies, now it’s only mocked.  Fifty years ago, a Christian could live by his values, but now those values are illegal.  Fifty years ago, public schools allowed student faith, but now they implicitly teach that God is false.  Church attendance has been falling rapidly.  People identifying themselves as Christian is in decline. 

For most modern Christian, church is nothing but a deistic social club with Sunday concert music and a motivational speech.  Christianity for the casual Christian is nothing but an opiate.  You feel good, but it’s useless.   Casual Christians want to be casual while denying their Christianity is casual.  But, sorry, causal is as casual does.

 ::headscratch::
I wonder if some of this ground we have lost is not because of casual dress, but rather judgmental attitudes.  If a casually dressed person or even a prostitute, a junkie, or homeless person cannot walk into a church and feel welcome and not judged, I feel that church needs to rethink its values.   

People I have known for some time are often surprised when they discover I am a Christian, and many cite my nonjudgmental attitude for their surprise.  I tell them that Christians should be easily identified by their love and grace, and not to be dissuaded by those that do not exhibit these characteristics, for they mean well.  However misguided they may be, they are showing their love as they see best.

Offline Carey

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #41 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 11:46:39 »
Nah, the uniform is more like advertising as well as an identifier of the service.

If it were just a visor and a vest, the argument of advertising and identifier of the service would be sufficient.  But, the McDonald’s dress code goes far beyond that.  Black pants, black shoes, remove facial piercings, cover tattoos, etc.  Practically all businesses, outside of dirty labor jobs, have significant dress codes, such as prohibition of blue jeans, even when the business has no specific clothes that represent the business or an employee.   

Quote
Also, define culturally ineffectual. I'm pretty sure a culture which is dwindling is ineffectual. One that engages with the community around it might have a bit more of an effect.

I don’t know about your part of the world, but America use to have a very strong Christian culture.  In the last Fifty years, that culture has been destroyed, exactly parallel to the rise of the casual church.  Fifty years ago, Christianity was respected in television and movies, now it’s only mocked.  Fifty years ago, a Christian could live by his values, but now those values are illegal.  Fifty years ago, public schools allowed student faith, but now they implicitly teach that God is false.  Church attendance has been falling rapidly.  People identifying themselves as Christian is in decline. 

For most modern Christian, church is nothing but a deistic social club with Sunday concert music and a motivational speech.  Christianity for the casual Christian is nothing but an opiate.  You feel good, but it’s useless.   Casual Christians want to be casual while denying their Christianity is casual.  But, sorry, causal is as casual does.

I must be part of the wrong church then.  I don't wear a suit, but I am not getting feel good sermons, concert music, or a deistic social club.

 ::frown::

You are not alone, me neither.  Although we are blessed to have an extremely talented musical worship team.  (Had to look up deistic, but no we ain't got one of those either.)

Offline Daemon Blackfyre

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Re: Modesty for MEN?
« Reply #42 on: Fri Sep 16, 2016 - 18:03:34 »
If it were just a visor and a vest, the argument of advertising and identifier of the service would be sufficient.  But, the McDonald’s dress code goes far beyond that.  Black pants, black shoes, remove facial piercings, cover tattoos, etc.  Practically all businesses, outside of dirty labor jobs, have significant dress codes, such as prohibition of blue jeans, even when the business has no specific clothes that represent the business or an employee.   
I laughed so hard when you went on about removing piercings and covering tattoos because my manager has purple hair, 3 brow piercings, a stretched earlobe and the most awesome tattoo sleeve you've seen. Like the prime feature is this oriental dragon winding up and the gaps are filled with heraldic devices, music instruments, naked women, religious symbology, Chinese, Russian and Arabic script - it's amazing. Anyways, no. You're putting the image of maccas way higher than it deserves to be dude.

Also, again, my Church family is not a business I have an exchange with.



I don’t know about your part of the world, but America use to have a very strong Christian culture.  In the last Fifty years, that culture has been destroyed, exactly parallel to the rise of the casual church.  Fifty years ago, Christianity was respected in television and movies, now it’s only mocked.  Fifty years ago, a Christian could live by his values, but now those values are illegal.  Fifty years ago, public schools allowed student faith, but now they implicitly teach that God is false.  Church attendance has been falling rapidly.  People identifying themselves as Christian is in decline. 

For most modern Christian, church is nothing but a deistic social club with Sunday concert music and a motivational speech.  Christianity for the casual Christian is nothing but an opiate.  You feel good, but it’s useless.   Casual Christians want to be casual while denying their Christianity is casual.  But, sorry, causal is as casual does.
I contest that. With the roaring 20s with burlesque clubs and drug-addled gangsters (which wore the same moral, respectful attire you speak of) and even socialist parties using the star of Lucifer as a symbol of anti-authoritarian freedom fighters (below), I doubt that the very secular (by its very constitution) federation that dominated the North American continent exactly gobbed the values you're on about.


What you're on about the the Cold War culture you seppos developed to help distinguish yourselves from your commie mates across the arctic. ANy identifyer to make the world more bipolar to the third world would do, including that of the antitheism espoused by classical Marxism vs your moral-while-religious narrative. Christianity was played up as something opposed to the evil atheists in red. One of the reason why radical Islam is of the Wahabi salafist ilk is, well, the Sauds and the Mujahideen were propped up by you because they were people of God with a green flavour against the communists (there again Thatcher tells Mujahideen that "the hearts of the free world" are with them in 1981 & President Ronald Reagan Meeting Some Mujahideen
) so half that Christian culture you talk about from what I know of history, of a distinguishing feature of the Cold War.

Also, again, what dos this have to do with dress and how is that supposed to correlate with the genuineness of a congregation's faith? Jesus, again, hung out with hookers, thieves and tax payers, dude. He identifies himself a bit like how my church aspires to make their impact - they're out with the filthy battlers in the community trying to help make life suck less. And you don't need to dress like a proper posh geezer for that. Call that casual but Jesus didn't strike me as particularly up in the temple with his methods.

Like do you want to but let people do as they wish want to without judgement.


 ::headscratch::
I wonder if some of this ground we have lost is not because of casual dress, but rather judgmental attitudes.  If a casually dressed person or even a prostitute, a junkie, or homeless person cannot walk into a church and feel welcome and not judged, I feel that church needs to rethink its values.   

People I have known for some time are often surprised when they discover I am a Christian, and many cite my nonjudgmental attitude for their surprise.  I tell them that Christians should be easily identified by their love and grace, and not to be dissuaded by those that do not exhibit these characteristics, for they mean well.  However misguided they may be, they are showing their love as they see best.
You that nail so hard on the head that the poor sod had a concussion for 3 days, and until a few months ago, I had the same idea of Christians that you described. Besides, if churches don't welcome homeless, junkies, slags and other scum like myself, I doubt churches would get off the ground in my part of town  rofl


I must be part of the wrong church then.  I don't wear a suit, but I am not getting feel good sermons, concert music, or a deistic social club.

 ::frown::
We have live music sometimes and, like a said, have some events to break the ice but I don't think we're particularly deistic seeing that there are plenty to testify to the active role God is playing in their lives. Though, I suppose feeling good and alright music are somehow bad things   ::shrug::

 

     
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