Author Topic: The marriage licence fraud  (Read 3068 times)

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Offline DaveW

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #35 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 05:33:40 »
Texas Conservative, the fact is that the need for marriage is a weakness.

No brother, that is an unbiblical stance handed down by the early church fathers who were influenced by Greek dualism that taught the body was evil. It runs counter the pro-marriage stance of the entire bible from cover to cover.

The VERY FIRST command given to man and woman was to be fruitful and multiply. The stance that you have taken that marriage is for the weak says this command is null and void.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #35 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 05:33:40 »

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #36 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 07:24:42 »
Dave, deciding to stay single is not a sin, period. You take my statements out of context. If someone "needs" marriage, then he/she has a dependency of someone, somewhere, meeting that need. Feel free to freak out about the word "weakness," but just consider that statement as a sound one.

I made that mention because  a lot of people complain about their needs not being met in marriage, including whether or not they can even find a partner.

But why do I have to repeat myself like this, Dave? Could you notice the context of my statements before getting after semantics and arguing needlessly?

1 Corinthians 7
Now as to the matters of which you wrote me. It is well [and by that I mean advantageous, expedient, profitable, and wholesome] for a man not to touch a woman [to cohabit with her] but to remain unmarried.

What happens when you read this?


2 But because of the temptation to impurity and to avoid immorality, let each [man] have his own wife and let each [woman] have her own husband.
3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights (goodwill, kindness, and what is due her as his wife), and likewise the wife to her husband.
4 For the wife does not have [exclusive] authority and control over her own body, but the husband [has his rights]; likewise also the husband does not have [exclusive] authority and control over his body, but the wife [has her rights].
5 Do not refuse and deprive and defraud each other [of your due marital rights], except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves unhindered to prayer. But afterwards resume marital relations, lest Satan tempt you [to sin] through your lack of restraint of sexual desire.
6 But I am saying this more as a matter of permission and concession, not as a command or regulation.


So what, now, Dave, you want to make marriage a command and regulation?

7 I wish that all men were like I myself am [in this matter of self-control]. But each has his own special gift from God, one of this kind and one of another.

You made a big deal about singleness being some outrageously extraordinary gift and I'd personally grant that it may be more rare than the gift of marriage. However, they are both gifts. Paul does not put an emphasis on one of them being on some higher order of spiritual rarity here like you are trying to mislead.

Paul has the gift of singleness and says he wishes everyone else did, too. But you want to make marriage an imperative?
verse 38
So also then, he [the father] who gives his virgin (his daughter) in marriage does well, and he [the father] who does not give [her] in marriage does better.

Paul illustrates a CHOICE for singleness, and one that he thinks is "better."

I cannot believe someone is actually trying to argue about this.
1 Corinthians 7:18
But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.


This has the notion of CHOOSING to marry written all over it, Dave. Paul considered singleness the better OPTION, granting that not everyone would be able to choose that. But the advantage of staying single is avoiding worldly troubles.

There is no need to add confusion to this. There is just not. Anyone should be able to walk through 1 Corinthians 7 without having its statements reinforced and repeated.
« Last Edit: Wed May 06, 2015 - 08:41:26 by Cally »

Offline Alan

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #37 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 09:55:26 »
Back to the OP, it was stated that women initiate 70% of divorce proceedings to which I had some doubt, but a little research did indicate that the statistic is accurate, so I do apologize for doubting, but what was also revealed is that twice as many men to women are involved in extramarital affairs, so the statistics speak for themselves and thus justified.


Cally;, I do find your reasoning to be quite odd. There appears to be some pain in your life that has led you to your conclusions, but you clearly are not giving God the power to work through these things in your life. If you did want to someday have a relationship but fear the "worldly troubles", you need to put your faith in God that He will deliver you from such a troubled union into one that is a true blessing. Using Paul's words to completely refrain from marriage to support a worldview of marriage is wrong, Paul did try to convince those that desired marriage to not marry, he said that it is not a requirement and can also be a good thing if that is what has led your heart, but if that is where you are at then I see little reason to carry on this rant against marriage when some of us are truly blessed to have wonderful Godly wives.


Bless you in your journey,


Alan

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:02:07 »
Alan, marriage can be a great thing and it's an excellent design of God. It's a dance between flawed human beings. ;-)

I simply believe 1 Corinthians 7:18 and my belief in that statement is resulting in slander, again, and felt the need to reply to Dave's ridiculous arguments.

Quote
There appears to be some pain in your life that has led you to your conclusions

Oh really? You mean it couldn't possibly be because of the facts that I laid out and that even you know and acknowledge full-well? The "worldview" is nothing more than an agreement with Paul: people (male or female) are free to think . . .

1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.


Yeah, Paul, you have a point. I think I'll stay single. Others will get married, which is also fine for them. So knock it off with the slander--that is all.
« Last Edit: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:14:05 by Cally »

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:02:07 »
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Offline DaveW

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:35:35 »
Cally - what we NEED to do is obey God.  Agree?

One of God's FIRST commands to humans is to be fruitful and multiply.  AGREE?

God also commands us to not have sex outside of marriage and in order to reproduce, we have to have sex.  Agree?

So in order to obey this command of God we need to be married.  It seems pretty straight forward to me.   So unless God has given you some special dispensation, (charismatic gift of celebacy) in order to obey God you should be married.


ETA:  Your editorials on 1 Cor 7 seem way off to me.  Not at all the way Derek Prince (who was fluent in ancient dialects of Greek before either of us were born) read that passage.

1 Corinthians 7
Now as to the matters of which you wrote me. It is well [agreeable] for a man not to touch [to kindle up emotions of]  a woman, but to remain unmarried.

3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights [sex], and likewise the wife to her husband.

4 For the wife does not have authority and control over her own body, but the husband [has that authority]; likewise also the husband does not have authority and control over his body, but the wife [has that authority].

5 Do not refuse and deprive and defraud each other [of your due marital rights], except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, so that you may devote yourselves unhindered to prayer. But afterwards resume marital relations, lest Satan tempt you [to sin] through your lack of restraint of sexual desire.
6 But I am saying this [abstaining for a short time] more as a matter of permission and concession, not as a command or regulation.
« Last Edit: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:43:51 by DaveW »

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:35:35 »



Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #40 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:40:57 »
Okay, Dave, so despite 1 Corinthians 7, you demand that everybody is married and has babies or they're sinning.

Paul calls both marriage and celibacy "gifts."

He also refers to both as a choice.

The command to be fruitful and multiply was not declared to all mankind throughout all generations. It was said to Adam on one occasion, and Noah on another. See, Dave? You don't have to argue with Paul anymore: people can choose to be celibate or choose to be married. Both of these are called gifts. Paul said that marriage would bring with it "worldly troubles" and wanted to "spare you this" so tends to recommend the choice of celibacy.

That seems straightforward to me.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #41 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:48:10 »
Okay, Dave, so despite 1 Corinthians 7, you demand that everybody is married and has babies or they're sinning.

Paul calls both marriage and celibacy "gifts."

He also refers to both as a choice.

Did you not see that I said some have the gift of celebacy?  Those are the only ones that get out of the command to be fruitful and multiply.  It had been understood ALL THRU JEWISH HISTORY that the command applied to every couple. Rabbis Shammai and Hillel (who was grandfather of Paul's mentor Gameliel) each delclared what that meant.  To Shammai it was to have at least one boy and one girl.  Hillel said 2 children minimum of either gender.

You cannot just come in after the fact and reintrepret the command to be ONLY to Adam and Noah.  Since they were the progenetors of the Human species - it extends to all of us.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #42 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:54:05 »
Okay, Dave, so maybe I'll look at Paul's comment:

1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.

And I say, "okay Paul, I see your point. I will be one who chooses celibacy because LIKE YOU SAY (can you stay with me, Dave?) I want to avoid those worldly troubles YOU (Paul) ARE TALKING ABOUT." Therefore, that must also mean I have the gift of celibacy.

Are we happy yet?

Offline DaveW

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #43 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:56:48 »
Cally - you may or may not have the gift of celebacy.  In that case you are exempt from the multiplication command. That is between you and God. 

But whether you do or do not have the gift of celebacy (which you can choose to NOT follow) you should NEVER be trying to talk others out of obeying the command. Scripture has nothing good to say about those who try to dissuade people from obeying God.   

I cannot see your rants against marriage as anything but dissuasion of people from marriage.

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #44 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:58:16 »
Quote
I cannot see your rants against marriage as anything but dissuasion of people from marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.


This doesn't sound like a dissuasion of marriage to you?

Offline DaveW

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #45 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 13:59:27 »
Okay, Dave, so maybe I'll look at Paul's comment:

1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.

And I say, "okay Paul, I see your point. I will be one who chooses celibacy because LIKE YOU SAY (can you stay with me, Dave?) I want to avoid those worldly troubles YOU (Paul) ARE TALKING ABOUT." Therefore, that must also mean I have the gift of celibacy.

Are we happy yet?

The troubles he was talking about was a specific persecution.  And at times there have been other persecutions.

As to the gift - if you feel the need for close companionship, or are needing sexual release, you do NOT have the gift. 

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #46 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 14:09:25 »
Um, no, it's still portrayed as a choice Dave--a choice either way. That's the bottom line.


1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.


It's still a choice based on someone saying: "yes, Paul, you're right, the worldly troubles look like too much to deal with." It doesn't make any difference whether this was talking about a specific persecution or not. The point is that Paul was talking about making a choice after an evaluation.

So your later assertions fall apart anyway. If someone can make an evaluation even due to a temporal persecution situation then that's still exactly what it is: evaluate the cost/benefits, yes or no, with the option of "no, Paul has a point, I'll CHOOSE to be celibate because of those worldly troubles he's talking about."

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #47 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 14:20:59 »
And I have no quarrel with Paul on the other hand: there is also no problem with someone choosing marriage which is also a gift. There is truly nothing to argue about here unless you are absolutely bent on committing slander.

There is nothing "wrong" with marriage. I think God's design for marriage is beautiful and fantastic. There can be a lot wrong with people, of course.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #48 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 14:34:52 »
PS, for what it's worth, you'll have to take my word for this, I just finished writing a novel that includes a very sincerely-written (lots of labor on my part) love story that ends in a marriage commitment.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #49 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 14:51:36 »
Alan, marriage can be a great thing and it's an excellent design of God. It's a dance between flawed human beings. ;-)

I simply believe 1 Corinthians 7:18 and my belief in that statement is resulting in slander, again, and felt the need to reply to Dave's ridiculous arguments.

Quote
There appears to be some pain in your life that has led you to your conclusions

Oh really? You mean it couldn't possibly be because of the facts that I laid out and that even you know and acknowledge full-well? The "worldview" is nothing more than an agreement with Paul: people (male or female) are free to think . . .

1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.


Yeah, Paul, you have a point. I think I'll stay single. Others will get married, which is also fine for them. So knock it off with the slander--that is all.


Slander? Seriously? You really need to use a better choice of words here.


Assert, allege, claim, contend, are all acceptable terms for your disagreement.


Slander:


noun
1.
defamation; calumny:
rumors full of slander.
2.
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report:
a slander against his good name.
3.
Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.
verb (used with object)
4.
to utter slander against; defame.
verb (used without object)
5.
to utter or circulate slander.


No one has slandered you Cally, truth of the matter is you seem to be a touch hyper-sensitive, at least your posts reflect that in your character and in your continuous rants against women. Is that slander also?

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #50 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 15:50:25 »
Quote
in your continuous rants against women. Is that slander also?

Yes, it is. Because you (and others) absolutely fail to address certain statements, facts, and conclusions that I put forward and just dismiss them as "rants against women" in order to demonize the target and ignore the content of what I'm actually saying, let alone make a thoughtful reply to what is put forward. That is definitely slander. It may be "hypersensitive" on others' part, too.

Characterizing them as "rants against women" are also misleading, because they are also "rants" (or rather criticisms) against men as well who are party to a cultural condition.

There are men and women BOTH, on the other hand, who share similar observations and concerns. It's a cultural criticism, in a culture which--by the way--doesn't mind criticizing men for "oppressing" women as a group. You, Alan, made that broad-brush statement against men--it's just a more acceptable thing to do in this culture. You can say such general negative statements about men, but you're just not allowed to for women. But that's beside the point, as, again, I've been making a cultural criticism to which both genders are party.

Yes, Alan, there is no doubt: I have clarified this distinction constantly, just as I constantly clarified that I am not AT ALL "against marriage" itself while believing (like Paul) that evaluating cost/benefits with one's head in reality is a valid thing to do. Yet the tactic at work is completely--completely--ignoring the actual statements, facts, logic I put forward, and just dismissing it as a "rant against women," a smear of the person over addressing the actual points. That is absolutely the definition of slander.
« Last Edit: Wed May 06, 2015 - 16:11:25 by Cally »

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #51 on: Wed May 06, 2015 - 16:45:46 »
I'm not denying that the problems exist, the statistics speak volumes for the reality of marriage today, and I also take full responsibility for my observations of men as being equally to blame, but I also stated that if your concerns were those statistics then allow God to take control, lean on Him, trust Him, and press into His plans and purposes rather than fear the worlds current marital disaster. Christians need to step away from the bondage of the world and step into the fullness of God.


If your call is to remain celibate then so be it, what I don't understand are the strong convictions that accompany your choice.


Bless you Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #52 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 08:58:48 »
Um, no, it's still portrayed as a choice Dave--a choice either way. That's the bottom line.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.


It's still a choice based on someone saying: "yes, Paul, you're right, the worldly troubles look like too much to deal with." It doesn't make any difference whether this was talking about a specific persecution or not. The point is that Paul was talking about making a choice after an evaluation.

So your later assertions fall apart anyway. If someone can make an evaluation even due to a temporal persecution situation then that's still exactly what it is: evaluate the cost/benefits, yes or no, with the option of "no, Paul has a point, I'll CHOOSE to be celibate because of those worldly troubles he's talking about."

Um - Isn't that a bit like saying "I choose to heal this person of cancer?"  If God did not give you that gift, then you do not have it.

Matthew 19:9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
 10 The disciples *said to Him, “If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.”
11 But He said to them, “Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

That certainly says to me that not everyone has that gift.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #53 on: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:10:06 »
Cally - when I was in jr high school (7th-8th grade) I noticed a lot of "coupling" going on.  It made me sick.  Flirtation.  Extreme nausea.

In my family there were divorces going back 2 to 3 generations on all sides. I never wanted to put a kid thru what I went thru as a child of divorce. So I decided to never marry.  I made the "choice."  I did not date in hs.  Did not even talk to girls.  Most people thought I was gay. My step dad put a lot of pressure on me to start dating.  But I stuck to my guns.

But God had other ideas.  He did not give me that gift.  My sex drive drove me crazy.  Eventually, God had to speak to me in an audible voice from the sky. So I listened, found the right girl, and a couple of years later we were wed.  We have been together for 37 years.

Have we had "troubles?" Sure.  But we stuck to our commitments and Him and got thru them.
« Last Edit: Thu May 07, 2015 - 09:12:38 by DaveW »

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #54 on: Tue May 19, 2015 - 23:12:48 »
Alan wrote,
Quote
Although it does appear to be unjust, men have brought this upon themselves with past decades/centuries of men oppressing and abusing women. It's no wonder the police respond the way they do to domestic violence calls, they take no chances even if the opposite is true

So because some men 100 years ago abused women, a 22-year-old man living today brought it on himself?

I'm sure there were plenty of men abusing women way back when, just as there are now.  There are a minority of guys who beat their wives up or abuse them in numerous other ways.

But feminists consider a lot of things 'abuse' that aren't-- like the man being in charge of the house and his wife being expected to follow his directives.  Or a man getting paid more than a woman.  Actually, women get paid more in one study that controlled for a number of variables, like working overtime and taking hazzardous or dirty jobs.  People who handle garbage, sewage, or live electricity, for example, get paid a premium for the danger or discomfort in our economy, and women gravitate away from those jobs and toward so-so paying jobs like teaching. 

But if an employer in 1890 wanted to pay his married male employee more than his single female employee less than his male employee because the man had gotten married and was the head of a family and had a baby, and the female would likely marry him and leave work to have babies, that's not unjust. 

Biblically, I don't see a reason to think that a college only accepting men is not unjust.  Biblically, I don't see any reason to think that only men being able to vote is unjust.  Besides, women got the vote soon after universal male suffrage.  Property only going to the male heir is not unjust or the Lord wouldn't have commanded that to Israel.

Maybe men have dropped the ball in leadership in a variety of ways and that has messed things up.  I beleive part of dropping the ball is in allowing feminists to have such free reign in government and in shaping the philosophy of this country and other countries of the west.  Part of it relates to the family as well.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #55 on: Tue May 19, 2015 - 23:27:55 »
Mr_Handsome, from what I've read there is evidence for women filing around 65 to 70% of no-fault divorces.  Some of those could be cases of women divorcing adulterous husbands the easy way.  Some of those could be women who divorce passive husbands who say, "You handle the paperwork, dear."

I don't see a compelling moral argument for not registering a marriage.  If you get a marriage license, you don't have to see it as the state making the marriage.  You can see it as getting a license to comply with legal requirements.  Some states still have fornication codes on the books, and legally, you could be guilty of a crime (that's never enforced) if you don't register the marriage.

Practically, some women are serious about marriage and some aren't.  Some that claim to be may walk away when the butterflies go away or when they get bored.  But don't you think the ones who are serious who are going to be the type to stick around aren't going to take too kindly to the idea of not having a marriage license?

When I hear a guy say there is no need for a marriage license, I wonder how serious he is about marriage and a life-long commitment.  I realize that may start to change as men see the problems with the legal system, and also with the state making a mockery of marriage by calling homosexual unions 'marriage.'  some people want to get the state out of marriage. 

If a man tells  a woman he doesn't want a marriage license and his reasons are the same as the ones in the OP, that's right along the lines of asking for a pre-nup, which implies "I don't trust you to stay married to me."  Pre-nups make sense when a widow and widower are getting married and want to make sure certain assets pass to grown or new children and not to their spouses, and special situations like that.  But two young people starting out with a pre-nup looks like a bet on divorce.

If men don't legally marry, they can still be expected to pay child support.  And with so many people shacking up, I fully expect the courts to create laws (yes create) by making decisions that give live-in fornicators the same rights as married couples in a lot of ways.  If you aren't legally married, the courts can still take away the kids anyway and make you pay a check, so it's not much of a solution.  Some states don't do much in the way of alimony anymore anyway. 

Family law in the US is really messed up.  If you made a contract with a builder to build your house and he quit half-way through, you could sue for damages.  If you and a spouse make a solemn covenant to stay together for life and she renigs, the courts just might take your money away, and your kids except for weekends in some states.  A lot of times state laws don't differentiate between genders but judges do.  I hear in this state, 90% of the time the kids go to the mother.  Georgia has put men who've become unemployed in debtos prison for not paying child support.  It's a messed up system.

The real ways of reducing risk are either marrying and living overseas where laws are less penalizing toward men (in a culture where women believe in marriage for life).  Or you can marry a woman who is low risk for divorce.  You can reduce the risk by marrying a virgin (or woman who hasn't had sexual partners other than yourself-- speaking about a study here, not ethics since fornication is a sin.)  You can marry someone who goes to church regularly.  I hear that lowers the chances by about 20 %.  I hear American men who marry women from the Philippines have a divorce rate somewhere around half of what US couples have.  And some Filippinas are scammers looking for green cards (probably a small percentage) and US law gives a lot of incentives to foreigners to claim abuse and get an easier path to a green card.  In spite of that, the divorce rates are still low.  (If some Filippinas are scammers, what does that make Americans with higher divorce rates.)

From personal experience, it seems like expats who marry Indonesians have low divorce rates.  It seems like Indonesian Christians who marry have low divorce rates compared to the US.  Some people-groups would probably have lower rates than others.  I hear Indonesian Sundanese have high divorce rates, but they are 99% Muslim, too. 

I've also heard that Christian couples that pray together regularly have a fare less than 1% rate of divorce, but I think that was from a survey at a conference (or two) and not something peer-reviewed.  Still, it is very interesting.

I don't think doing away with certificates solves the divorce and family law issues.  If you are really concerned, lots of countries have legal systems that aren't as anti-male.

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #56 on: Tue May 19, 2015 - 23:28:37 »
Quote
Biblically, I don't see any reason to think that only men being able to vote is unjust. 

Currently, unlike men, women can vote without being required to sign up for the draft.

But yes, the whole "men brought it on themselves" . . . "it" meaning what? Sins committed against them, right?

At no point in history were men the only ones who sinned and women were the only ones who were victims of the opposite sex. Proverbs mentions the "contentious woman" four separate times and how impossible she is to deal with and how it's better not to be married at all and be exiled to the desert. Where are the men's shelters for the male victims of her? A type of woman who has existed since time immemorial and YOU BET is alive and well in the post-feminist world.

Christianity's resistance to the subject of men's protection is sinful. There is no excuse for it.

Offline Link

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #57 on: Wed May 20, 2015 - 00:30:52 »
There is a western cultural myth that men are bad and women are good. There is a poem about it, about boys being made of snails, and puppy dog tails, and girls being made of sugar and spice and everything nice.

Ecclesiasties 7:28 says,
"while I was still searching but not finding-- I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all."
(NIV)

That was before the cross.

Offline Alan

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #58 on: Wed May 20, 2015 - 06:33:58 »
Alan wrote,
Quote
Although it does appear to be unjust, men have brought this upon themselves with past decades/centuries of men oppressing and abusing women. It's no wonder the police respond the way they do to domestic violence calls, they take no chances even if the opposite is true

So because some men 100 years ago abused women, a 22-year-old man living today brought it on himself?



It certainly is unjust that men are now treated as the abusers of past generations and likewise the generations of women that were built up to counter that abuse is still in effect today. I listen carefully to my own mother, grandmother, MIL, and many other women that have lived through those times. It was simply wrong the way they were treated, but the outcome of liberties has turned the tables in favour of women's rights, not just legally but ideally in relationship.


Anyhow, for whatever men did to women, or women now do to men I believe that through God all these things can be aligned in His will for us, I have married a beautiful and Godly woman that is full of the spirit of God and walks in His blessings as to what a wife should be.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #59 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 01:54:31 »
Alan, do you think all or most men were abusers in the past?  Before what year?  Do you think abuse was typical of marriage?  Of marriage among Christians? 

Offline Alan

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #60 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 05:55:57 »
Alan, do you think all or most men were abusers in the past?  Before what year?  Do you think abuse was typical of marriage?  Of marriage among Christians?


It wouldn't be fair to say all men were abusive in their marriages, I'm sure some men were great husbands and fathers. The timeline I refer to is prior to the women's liberation movement of the 60's. I can't really comment on how this affected typical Christian marriages but both my wife's and my families were "Christian" (Catholic on my side, protestant on my wife's) and the men were the epitome of abusive.

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #61 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 13:49:03 »
Quote
The timeline I refer to is prior to the women's liberation movement of the 60's.

Yeah, yeah, the usual feminist patriarchy theory that men all throughout the whole history of the world were "oppressors of women" (despite being providers for them and builders of civilization, of course).

And of course, the implicit notion that God utterly dropped the ball in making so much as a single mention of it all throughout human history in Scripture.

God got after Israel for failing to tithe in Malachi. In  Matthew, Jesus refers to that as a "gnat," or one of the tiniest sins imaginable--but sin nonetheless, and God had time to rebuke Israel over it.

But not even a single word about this "oppression of women."

Garbage. Feminism is Satan's rebellion and always was. "But look, men sin against women!" And women sin against men and always have, such as repeated mention of the contentious woman in Proverbs! But let's call special attention to MEN'S sins and WOMEN'S vicitmhood so we can support rebellion and make sure women's problems are the only ones we pay attention to solving.

Case-by-case, yes, many women are abused. And many men are abused, and the story is not as straightforward as one total sinner and one total victim. That was feminism's narrative from the beginning and it's caused incredible amounts of injustice to explicitly go in men's direction with men having no line of defense or support.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #62 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 14:09:13 »
I think the major difference between you and I Cally is that although I'm aware of the damage that both sexes have committed, I have chose to live it out with FULL expectation that God will see me through marital hardships, while you continue to complain about your unjust situation.

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #63 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 15:14:03 »
You hate complaining, Alan? It sounds like you absolutely love it when it comes from women.

It's true that God can see us through our situations and marriage isn't sin--my attitude is in total alignment with Paul's in 1 Corinthians 7 whether you acknowledge it or not.

I think marriage is a wonderful thing, which is why it's a travesty that *men and women*, such as yourself, killed it by supporting feminism.

If there is any validity in protecting women in their marriages, then there is equal validity in being protective of men (and by that I mean, as a church and community)--ESPECIALLY before people put so much as five words together about men's duties and responsibilities.

That's really the more important matter: feminism needs to be utterly driven from Christianity with the Devil who brought it. It comes in the package of being a great thing for women while it's wreaked havoc on society unlike anything else in history.

The way Christians are following it like zombies against their Bibles is a disgrace. It's also a scary thing to see what happens to the minds of married men (even without the total disasters) from the perspective of a single man.

The upshot is that, fortunately, there ARE men and women who have a lick of sense. There ARE women who care and are involved in raising awareness and making a difference.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #64 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 16:31:16 »
If you think that I support feminism you're sadly mistaken, nor have I ever alluded to. I have given my opinion as to why the women's uprising took place, but that does not mean that I support it.


Quote
The upshot is that, fortunately, there ARE men and women who have a lick of sense. There ARE women who care and are involved in raising awareness and making a difference.
Exactly, this would very well describe the woman that I have married ::smile::


When my wife and I speak into other couples, or aspiring couples lives we do not bring a history lesson, what we attempt to do is show Biblical and practical purpose for marriage and the roles each must assume in that marriage, but like any ministry work, if we can't walk it out we shouldn't talk it out.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #65 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 17:39:33 »
I doubt feminism has reduced abuse in marriage.  It sure has caused a lot of problems.

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #66 on: Thu May 21, 2015 - 17:58:43 »
I doubt feminism has reduced abuse in marriage.  It sure has caused a lot of problems.


Agreed on both counts. I have found that some women have a much more difficult time submitting to their "Godly" role as a wife, control seems very difficult to let go of for some.

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #67 on: Sun May 24, 2015 - 00:01:31 »
Quote
When my wife and I speak into other couples, or aspiring couples lives we do not bring a history lesson, what we attempt to do is show Biblical and practical purpose for marriage and the roles each must assume in that marriage, but like any ministry work, if we can't walk it out we shouldn't talk it out.

Wait a minute, what's this about? I want to remind you of this quote:
Quote
As for men being the victims in this culture of liberated women, stand up for yourselves, resume your God given roles and take your places as the head and not the tail. A victim mentality is NEVER successful, and before you turn that to women having the power due to their being victims (my words), think about it, are they genuinely in control, or are they just controlling?

You've talked as if you're in complete disagreement with the following passages:

Proverbs 25:24
It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife.

Proverbs 21:19
It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman.

Proverbs 27:15-16
A continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife are alike; to restrain her is to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one’s right hand.


These verses should tell you a few things: firstly, it's better not to be married at ALL than to be stuck with this woman, let alone that you'd rather your house was burned down and you were exiled to the desert for life instead. Secondly, she is impossible: the man here is a genuine victim in the truest sense of the word--it's more than he could be able to handle without support. Thirdly, this kind of woman existed for thousands of years and since before this Scripture was written, i.e. WAY before women's lib (though it's surely worse after that).

In today's world, you also have to deal with the fact that women have the power wield the United States military against a man with almost unlimited power.

These are just facts. And if we're really at the point where it's offensive just to state facts and Scriptures, then that reinforces the point.

You talk to couples, Alan? Tell me something: what would you do for a man who comes to you and really is a victim of this woman whom Scripture warns about? What do you tell single men about how to avoid this kind of woman?

Here is an admirable quote from a woman who sounds like she's not part of the problem:

Quote
For me, a man whose a feminist is an instant turn off. I want to be treated like a decent human being, not being put on a pedestal because I being viewed as an object of reference.

Forgive the spelling, I'm pretty sure she meant "object of reverence." ;-)

I see a LOT of sensible women out there. That's not my concern. My concern is that, as a man, everything on the spectrum of little aches and pains to severe suffering in marriage--unlike a woman, who has a sympathetic and active world at her beck and call for her issues by comparison--will go with little to no protective, supportive, or loving spirit.

The best of us can sin against others--men and women both. But what I've seen among men (in some groups I've seen) is that support for them is miserably inadequate and egregiously fall short of what is offered women. The church needs to repent of this, and do it before proposing to give men directives for marriage.
« Last Edit: Sun May 24, 2015 - 02:26:51 by Cally »

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #68 on: Sun May 24, 2015 - 19:45:40 »
Quote
When my wife and I speak into other couples, or aspiring couples lives we do not bring a history lesson, what we attempt to do is show Biblical and practical purpose for marriage and the roles each must assume in that marriage, but like any ministry work, if we can't walk it out we shouldn't talk it out.

Wait a minute, what's this about? I want to remind you of this quote:
Quote
As for men being the victims in this culture of liberated women, stand up for yourselves, resume your God given roles and take your places as the head and not the tail. A victim mentality is NEVER successful, and before you turn that to women having the power due to their being victims (my words), think about it, are they genuinely in control, or are they just controlling?

You've talked as if you're in complete disagreement with the following passages:

Proverbs 25:24
It is better to live in a corner of the housetop than in a house shared with a quarrelsome wife.

Proverbs 21:19
It is better to live in a desert land than with a quarrelsome and fretful woman.

Proverbs 27:15-16
A continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome wife are alike; to restrain her is to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one’s right hand.


These verses should tell you a few things: firstly, it's better not to be married at ALL than to be stuck with this woman, let alone that you'd rather your house was burned down and you were exiled to the desert for life instead. Secondly, she is impossible: the man here is a genuine victim in the truest sense of the word--it's more than he could be able to handle without support. Thirdly, this kind of woman existed for thousands of years and since before this Scripture was written, i.e. WAY before women's lib (though it's surely worse after that).

In today's world, you also have to deal with the fact that women have the power wield the United States military against a man with almost unlimited power.

These are just facts. And if we're really at the point where it's offensive just to state facts and Scriptures, then that reinforces the point.

You talk to couples, Alan? Tell me something: what would you do for a man who comes to you and really is a victim of this woman whom Scripture warns about? What do you tell single men about how to avoid this kind of woman?

Here is an admirable quote from a woman who sounds like she's not part of the problem:

Quote
For me, a man whose a feminist is an instant turn off. I want to be treated like a decent human being, not being put on a pedestal because I being viewed as an object of reference.

Forgive the spelling, I'm pretty sure she meant "object of reverence." ;-)

I see a LOT of sensible women out there. That's not my concern. My concern is that, as a man, everything on the spectrum of little aches and pains to severe suffering in marriage--unlike a woman, who has a sympathetic and active world at her beck and call for her issues by comparison--will go with little to no protective, supportive, or loving spirit.

The best of us can sin against others--men and women both. But what I've seen among men (in some groups I've seen) is that support for them is miserably inadequate and egregiously fall short of what is offered women. The church needs to repent of this, and do it before proposing to give men directives for marriage.

I am currently married to the woman described in Proverbs.  She didn't start out that way, but pride and narcissism caused her to become that woman.  Although, I see the light at the end of the tunnel.  My marriage will be over most likely this summer, and by her hand.  Luckily, I have had a lot of support from my parents.

Offline Cally

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Re: The marriage licence fraud
« Reply #69 on: Sun May 24, 2015 - 20:05:51 »
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I am currently married to the woman described in Proverbs.  She didn't start out that way, but pride and narcissism caused her to become that woman

Yeah people can change. Some people foolishly claim that it's somebody's own fault for marrying a certain person in the first place, but it's good that you got some support for that.

If I were ever in your sort of shoes I straight-up wouldn't know what to do. If I were a woman in a marriage, I have no doubt I'd have shoulders to cry on, hotlines to call, people-support in the church, pastors and other resources galore--and that's not to minimize what women go through in marriage by any means. But most stories I hear about men suffering in marriages are at another level due to the loneliness factor as well as the legal bias against men.

It seems like some people care about the fact, but it's a little bit rare.

 

     
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