I don't think I will ever trust men

[Rahn]

I know from reading the stories here on this forum that there have been some really horrible marriages. I also know that God grieves over such relationships. I have memories of my parents. Things were not always great for them. However, for a good number of years I watched my dad take care of my mother when she was unable to care for herself. She is gone and now I have been taking care of my dad. He is in his 80's. Once he gets better, and I know they will, he will be able to do more for himself.

I would like to think that there is a woman out there for me as I have never married. What I hope for if it happens is a woman who will care for me as I watched my mom take care of my dad when he had health problems. I hope I will do the same for a woman who would come into my life. My mom put her trust in my dad and he endured over a good number of years in taking care of my mom.

Nurture is a beautiful word. When home health aids did not come out to help my mom with her bath and attend to her other needs my dad was there to fulfill that role. He helped organize her medications. (I did some of that and now I am doing for my dad.) Care giving is a part of trust. I am sorry to hear about such unpleasant experiences in relationships. 

[yesult]

Comments like 'guys get to a certain age and only want sex out of a relationship' is the reason so many women stay or end up single too.

Also, that a woman 'sharpening a man' invariably gets personal (the implication being, that they shouldn't have the right.)

Sad.

[Cally]

Comments like 'guys get to a certain age and only want sex out of a relationship' is the reason so many women stay or end up single too.

Also, that a woman 'sharpening a man' invariably gets personal (the implication being, that they shouldn't have the right.)

Sad.

Why not make this really easy on ourselves: there's such a thing as amoral men, there's such a thing as amoral women.

Sharpening a man is not a wife's job. Remember phrases from Solomon like "a gentle doe, a graceful dear"? And remember how miserable Solomon says it is to have a "contentious wife"?

The men do that with each other. Oftentimes women wonder why they're "fighting" but in many of those cases they are making each other stronger.

And going home to the sort of wife the Bible talks about is the other half of it (from his perspective). If a woman is actually concerned about what's good for a man besides what she has a "right" to do with him, that's basically what it looks like.

[Bocephus]

"Sharpen a man?"

Doesn't sound right.

Most men have problems with lust, at the very least, the temptation.  Personally, life would be a lot easier if it wasn't that way.  It can be a very sensitive topic for these men, and it doesn't help for women to look down on men who struggle with the temptation and the lust.

But I do see that sexism is alive and well.  "I don't trust women because I've been hurt so many times." "I don't trust men because this or that."

You've been hurt by a person.  Because not every women in church or otherwise is the ideal, that doesn't mean I am going to be distrustful of my daughters or my wife.

[Cally]

"Sharpen a man?"

Doesn't sound right.

Most men have problems with lust, at the very least, the temptation.  Personally, life would be a lot easier if it wasn't that way.  It can be a very sensitive topic for these men, and it doesn't help for women to look down on men who struggle with the temptation and the lust.

But I do see that sexism is alive and well.  "I don't trust women because I've been hurt so many times." "I don't trust men because this or that."

You've been hurt by a person.  Because not every women in church or otherwise is the ideal, that doesn't mean I am going to be distrustful of my daughters or my wife.

Thanks Gary. I mean yes, men struggling with lust issues in whatever way are also even taught that self-depreciating is the way to go. To some it's all part of the accusation game, of pointing out how someone has a fault as a false license to do . . . well, anything. Control.

And yet the day-by-day battle does not make anything special about a particular sin: just GO and do what it is you do, and don't do that to yourself.

[yesult]

^Indeed, sharpening the antlers with the men is good! Friendly competition in whatever form, to sharpen us, but with women such a thing is invariably personal, and God meant a man to come home from that into respite, not into more of it!

(sounds like a reference to Proverbs' contentious wife)

So as iron sharpens iron is only a male thing because a woman should just submit.

Sorry cally, but you're still supporting male domination. Iron sharpening iron is a positive thing, and if that isn't happening in a relationship then the relationship is unhealthy. Equality means equality. Domination means domination.
Domination occurs when the roles are unequal. A woman being considered unworthy of sharpening her husband and expected to always just be nice to him regardless is exactly that. Domination.

[Bocephus]

^Indeed, sharpening the antlers with the men is good! Friendly competition in whatever form, to sharpen us, but with women such a thing is invariably personal, and God meant a man to come home from that into respite, not into more of it!

(sounds like a reference to Proverbs' contentious wife)

So as iron sharpens iron is only a male thing because a woman should just submit.

Sorry cally, but you're still supporting male domination. Iron sharpening iron is a positive thing, and if that isn't happening in a relationship then the relationship is unhealthy. Equality means equality. Domination means domination.
Domination occurs when the roles are unequal. A woman being considered unworthy of sharpening her husband and expected to always just be nice to him regardless is exactly that. Domination.

Iron sharpening iron is a positive thing, but the phrase "sharpen a man" sounds like female domination.  

[babe]

To get past this logical impasse you need to do the quantum leap.  In simple terms why argue about whether light(or matter, for that matter) is a particle or a wave when it can act either way to our observation.  It's more a matter of our frame of reference or measurement.

In a  relationship you need a woman who can be supportive and contribute to the decision-making while maintaining unconditional love and respect,  and a man who can show unconditional love and respect while maintaining leadership.

The Christian principles of man and woman "being one" involves both looking outward as a unified creation in trying to serve God, and  being nurturing and respectful to each member as we hopefully would be to own separate selves.

Now just where did God leave than woman who would want that?  Or the man who could live that?

But if we just go easy on each other and try to put God first, it sorta works towards that.

[Cally]

To get past this logical impasse you need to do the quantum leap.  In simple terms why argue about whether light(or matter, for that matter) is a particle or a wave when it can act either way to our observation.  It's more a matter of our frame of reference or measurement.

In a  relationship you need a woman who can be supportive and contribute to the decision-making while maintaining unconditional love and respect,  and a man who can show unconditional love and respect while maintaining leadership.

The Christian principles of man and woman "being one" involves both looking outward as a unified creation in trying to serve God, and  being nurturing and respectful to each member as we hopefully would be to own separate selves.

Now just where did God leave than woman who would want that?  Or the man who could live that?

But if we just go easy on each other and try to put God first, it sorta works towards that.

I tend to agree with this quote. That's how it turned out for me. All the "equality" message (which were in the church and in the secular world alike) inevitably faded away the more I pursued God. On the other hand I find it clear that to others it's rooted quite deeply.

Furthermore, the fact is--and I firstly said this in faith and then came to realize--that it is actually the one (oftentimes women) who stare at what the word says to women, sticks their noses up at it, and accuses God's design are the ones who actually "disrespect women" and God's good purposes for them. Somehow churches become a safehouse for those who oppose the Word on this issue because (I believe) this is one area that they don't see the threat that it really is (which should be evident from the outright rejection of scripture, not to mention common sense and even much science). I think some men are in the male chivalry thing when they let it all go--but it's not good for anyone.

So what you say works the other way, unfortunately--fumble this issue and more things can lead toward the path the other way, and what it leads to is hatred of authority (headship).

Since you compare this to "light," I assume this to mean that we should be meeting somewhere in the middle? What is it that you think two sides, here, truly agree and disagree about? Help me out.  

[babe]

You got it right.  The scriptures are the best way to inform our thinking about marriage.

Faith in God means accepting our place in His design, and trusting Him.  Many beautiful Bible verses on how marriage can work in His care.

I've listened to some wonderful women with wise words of faith in their counsels on marriage, particularly from the woman's angle, who discussed a lot of very vexing problems and how when women place it in the Lord's hands, and just love their husbands faithfully, the husband has been blessed in such a way he decided he too wanted to love his wife unconditionally and with faith in God.  Something about the power of prayer . . . . and faith.

[Cally]

Well now you have me interested about where you're coming from with these sentiments, babe.

Yes, it boils down to belief in scripture. Maybe it doesn't make sense right away, but it will later on. Frankly, again, coming from a younger generation, I tend to see this hidden from me for the most insidious possible reasons since it was dreaded "tradition" before. Verses like 1 Corinthians 11:8 are just plain hated by some people in the church every bit as much as with some God-haters and that, to me, is a red flag--I was brought up in that sort of viewpoint too. And also disgusting is men apologizing for scripture and doing the whole thing of "well the man's job is more important anyway" and some people just eat that up. And that's actually where you find the highest divorce rates, where the woman pretty much doesn't think she has anything to do with herself in a marriage (kinda hurts the self-perception of value and being part of something important, too). Many of the unbelievers figure out the dominant/submissive better on their own and marriages are more successful outside America, in places WITH the "traditional" way (and even got many times worse divorce-wise in America and western churches since it abandoned the traditional way). I'm amazed that even that still isn't enough to teach some churches a thing or two.

[Cally]

^Indeed, sharpening the antlers with the men is good! Friendly competition in whatever form, to sharpen us, but with women such a thing is invariably personal, and God meant a man to come home from that into respite, not into more of it!

(sounds like a reference to Proverbs' contentious wife)

So as iron sharpens iron is only a male thing because a woman should just submit.

Sorry cally, but you're still supporting male domination. Iron sharpening iron is a positive thing, and if that isn't happening in a relationship then the relationship is unhealthy. Equality means equality. Domination means domination.
Domination occurs when the roles are unequal. A woman being considered unworthy of sharpening her husband and expected to always just be nice to him regardless is exactly that. Domination.

By the way yesult what does 1 Peter 3 tell a woman to do even when a man is harsh and even an UNBELIEVER? It says to try and win him over with submissive behavior.

What does that mean to you, exactly? Because I picture that a woman's strategy even when a man is in the wrong is to "rebuke" in the gentle sense and approach, not going at him head-on the way men tend to do with each other more ably (of course, when they are actually aiming to be constructive, which the "contentious wife"--Proverbs--is not).

(Remember what happened when Sarah told Abraham to try Hagar, and then contended with him saying "the Lord judge between us!" for doing something she told him to do? Not one of Sarah's more flattering moments all the way around)

[babe]

It's hard not to go along with "modern" trendy philosophies in any contempory group or setting, particularly in our 'courts'.  The old ways 'failed' not because of their true scriptural or godly meanings, but because so many of us just didn't understand how to live by them in the right way.  So people were spouting the scriptures to justify some wrong way in them, and everyone felt the hurt and---not seeing the real virtue either---rejected the path of the Lord.

My core thought on seeing Elaine's opening posts is this. 

But why should we trust men without trusting God first?

Anybody out there who has this distrust of men has obviously suffered somehow, and maybe trusted the men in a wrong way and gotten hurt by it.

The way forward is to turn to God first, prayerfully resort to the scriptures for help, and develop a connection, a seeking for God.  When God takes a hand in it and you are reading the leading right, you will have help in dealing with men, or women, and I trust will be able to make better life decisions and find strenght to go forward.

[Cally]

Again, babe, I agree with your insight (in many cases). I don't think the feminine/masculine paradigms are quite right either in the traditional world and have been trouble for people. One thing that is interesting is to sometimes see how other cultures see them--though oftentimes incorrect in other ways, they are NOT the same as traditional America, although with some similarities to the traditional paradigm (which is still better on the whole, IMO).

I see it as the spirit removed proceeding to bring in seven more wicked back with it in this case. Some flaw was trying to be removed but it was not fixed with the right solution, so the same problem came back along with a bunch of new ones that are altogether closed to scriptures for the time being.

Welcome to the forums, btw.

[cezza57]

I can't trust girls!!!!!

Just a few weeks ago the girl I was seeing cheated on me...not with 1, not with 2, not with 3....but with 4 freakn guys!!!

Girls....shmerls!!! meh..