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Offline ohcalidatex

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 10:50:42 »
None of the above. I get burned out on counseling anyways. It's going to have to happen on my own.

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #35 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 10:50:42 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 15:46:23 »
None of the above. I get burned out on counseling anyways. It's going to have to happen on my own.


 Have you ever had Holy Spirit ministry as opposed to normal counselling? Its only the Holy spirit who can heal us inside, no amount of counselling can do that.

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #36 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 15:46:23 »

Offline ohcalidatex

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #37 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 16:58:26 »
None of the above. I get burned out on counseling anyways. It's going to have to happen on my own.


 Have you ever had Holy Spirit ministry as opposed to normal counselling? Its only the Holy spirit who can heal us inside, no amount of counselling can do that.

You will have to define/describe what you mean by "Holy Spirit ministry." I am not familiar with that term other than the obvious fact that as a believer I have the Holy Spirit within me ministering to me. I suspect though you have something more specific in mind.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 17:23:36 »
None of the above. I get burned out on counseling anyways. It's going to have to happen on my own.


 Have you ever had Holy Spirit ministry as opposed to normal counselling? Its only the Holy spirit who can heal us inside, no amount of counselling can do that.

You will have to define/describe what you mean by "Holy Spirit ministry." I am not familiar with that term other than the obvious fact that as a believer I have the Holy Spirit within me ministering to me. I suspect though you have something more specific in mind.
 

There are people who are experienced in praying with others, listening to Gods leading, and allowing Him to minister to the person. I have had this myself and know many others who have also. God will often bring things up that need dealing with, and will also often speak and pin point what needs doing. The Holy Spirit can do amazing things when given the opportunity and space to heal and set free and restore.
For example He may bring up a specific person who you need to forgive, or a specific event that He wants to heal. It can take many ministry appointments if you have a lot that needs dealing with. 

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #38 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 17:23:36 »
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Offline ohcalidatex

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 19:25:36 »
None of the above. I get burned out on counseling anyways. It's going to have to happen on my own.


 Have you ever had Holy Spirit ministry as opposed to normal counselling? Its only the Holy spirit who can heal us inside, no amount of counselling can do that.

You will have to define/describe what you mean by "Holy Spirit ministry." I am not familiar with that term other than the obvious fact that as a believer I have the Holy Spirit within me ministering to me. I suspect though you have something more specific in mind.
 

There are people who are experienced in praying with others, listening to Gods leading, and allowing Him to minister to the person. I have had this myself and know many others who have also. God will often bring things up that need dealing with, and will also often speak and pin point what needs doing. The Holy Spirit can do amazing things when given the opportunity and space to heal and set free and restore.
For example He may bring up a specific person who you need to forgive, or a specific event that He wants to heal. It can take many ministry appointments if you have a lot that needs dealing with.

I'm guessing this is something found in more charismatic circles? I have never heard of anyone around here with such a ministry approach. I don't mean that in a negative way. Just saying I'm not familiar with it.

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #39 on: Wed Feb 26, 2014 - 19:25:36 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #40 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 05:27:21 »
I'm guessing this is something found in more charismatic circles? I have never heard of anyone around here with such a ministry approach. I don't mean that in a negative way. Just saying I'm not familiar with it.

Theophostic and Elijah House style counseling (and a few others) are charismatic in nature. I would not go to a counselor who does not have (and use) the charismatic gifts of word of knowledge and word of wisdom. (see 1 Cor 12)   The reason is they can hear straight from the Holy Spirit what you do not choose to tell or perhaps have even forgotten. It is therefore much more efficient in getting to the crux of the matter.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #41 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 06:17:03 »
None of the above. I get burned out on counseling anyways. It's going to have to happen on my own.


 Have you ever had Holy Spirit ministry as opposed to normal counselling? Its only the Holy spirit who can heal us inside, no amount of counselling can do that.

You will have to define/describe what you mean by "Holy Spirit ministry." I am not familiar with that term other than the obvious fact that as a believer I have the Holy Spirit within me ministering to me. I suspect though you have something more specific in mind.
 

There are people who are experienced in praying with others, listening to Gods leading, and allowing Him to minister to the person. I have had this myself and know many others who have also. God will often bring things up that need dealing with, and will also often speak and pin point what needs doing. The Holy Spirit can do amazing things when given the opportunity and space to heal and set free and restore.
For example He may bring up a specific person who you need to forgive, or a specific event that He wants to heal. It can take many ministry appointments if you have a lot that needs dealing with.

I'm guessing this is something found in more charismatic circles? I have never heard of anyone around here with such a ministry approach. I don't mean that in a negative way. Just saying I'm not familiar with it.
   

Yes  and as Dave says, the gifts of the spirit need to be used by those who are praying, so that God can speak. He can get to the root of the problem and heal in a minute, while counselling can take years (if it ever really does). God has used my husband in this way with me a few times now, when he got a Bible verse or a word of knowledge that hit the nail on the head immediately.

Offline DaveW

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #42 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 06:40:46 »
PRMI (charismatic Presbyterians) also have a style they call "listening intercession." It is similar to their "listening evangelism" in that they listen very intently to the Holy Spirit for what to pray about and what to say.

God can and does work thru all of these style of counseling. The key is the  counselor needs to listen to the holy spirit.

=======================

In our congregation we have a woman who is a board certified psychiatrist. She used to work at an institutional psychiatric hospital.  A few years ago a woman there tried to commit suicide by slashing her wrists with a razor blade.  Once she was stabilized, (both physically and mentally) the staff of doctors all interviewed her.  They took turns asking her questions.  When it came to my friend, she asked only one question: "Where did you hide the other razor blade?"  The woman was so shocked she just blurted out "under my mattress."

There was nothing in any of the previous answers to indicate she was still suicidal or had a back up plan of any kind. It freaked out the other doctors more than the patient. My friend now has her own private practice.

That is an example of how gifts of wisdom and knowledge can get to the heart of the issues.

Offline ohcalidatex

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #43 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 15:00:05 »
PRMI (charismatic Presbyterians) also have a style they call "listening intercession." It is similar to their "listening evangelism" in that they listen very intently to the Holy Spirit for what to pray about and what to say.

God can and does work thru all of these style of counseling. The key is the  counselor needs to listen to the holy spirit.

=======================

In our congregation we have a woman who is a board certified psychiatrist. She used to work at an institutional psychiatric hospital.  A few years ago a woman there tried to commit suicide by slashing her wrists with a razor blade.  Once she was stabilized, (both physically and mentally) the staff of doctors all interviewed her.  They took turns asking her questions.  When it came to my friend, she asked only one question: "Where did you hide the other razor blade?"  The woman was so shocked she just blurted out "under my mattress."

There was nothing in any of the previous answers to indicate she was still suicidal or had a back up plan of any kind. It freaked out the other doctors more than the patient. My friend now has her own private practice.

That is an example of how gifts of wisdom and knowledge can get to the heart of the issues.

I'm not sure I need more counseling though. I am just an introvert who does not desire enough ongoing contact with one person to make a relationship work. Nothing wrong with that. I think I've caused myself more grief by thinking there is something wrong and trying to fix it rather than accepting who I am and being happy with that.

Offline Cally

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #44 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 15:27:51 »


He said nothing about marriage there. The marriage relationship is unique in that it is a covenant relationship, unlike any other relationships we may have. The two people become one in a spiritual sense.
There are many instructions in the Bible about how we are to be as husband and wives, and also parents. There are also instructions about how we are to care for and provide for other family members.

Jesus was then speaking about God coming first, so that we may be treated badly and maybe even excluded from our families because of our faith.

The two people become one flesh. (Mark 10:8) I see nothing about marriage being a spiritual joining.

What are your comments/beliefs on these scriptures, if you believe that fleshly family comes before the family of God?

Mark 10:29-30
"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel
will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--along with persecutions--and in the age to come eternal life.

Matthew 12:46
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


And let's not argue about nothing. Of course I know what actually IS written regarding marriages.
 

Marriage is a covenant that God ordained, so how can it not be spiritual? Sex is far more than the physical joining.

The church family is important, but our first ministry and responsibility after God is to our spouses and children. 



No comment on the scriptures I quoted?


 I have already commented on them a few posts back.

You only addressed one of those passages.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #45 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 16:45:10 »


He said nothing about marriage there. The marriage relationship is unique in that it is a covenant relationship, unlike any other relationships we may have. The two people become one in a spiritual sense.
There are many instructions in the Bible about how we are to be as husband and wives, and also parents. There are also instructions about how we are to care for and provide for other family members.

Jesus was then speaking about God coming first, so that we may be treated badly and maybe even excluded from our families because of our faith.

The two people become one flesh. (Mark 10:8) I see nothing about marriage being a spiritual joining.

What are your comments/beliefs on these scriptures, if you believe that fleshly family comes before the family of God?

Mark 10:29-30
"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel
will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--along with persecutions--and in the age to come eternal life.

Matthew 12:46
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


And let's not argue about nothing. Of course I know what actually IS written regarding marriages.
 

Marriage is a covenant that God ordained, so how can it not be spiritual? Sex is far more than the physical joining.

The church family is important, but our first ministry and responsibility after God is to our spouses and children. 



No comment on the scriptures I quoted?


 I have already commented on them a few posts back.

You only addressed one of those passages.


 No both. AS I said before, Jesus never mentioned marriage in that passage and His meaning is clear. Faith in Him can and does bring problems and separation in families. We are to be prepared to put Him first, even if that means our own families don't like it and reject us. Some even lose their families because of their faith. However God gives clear instructions of what the tasks and responsibilities are toward spouses, children and other family members, especially those in need. After Him they are always our first responsibility and ministry. That's presumably why Paul says what he does about being single, that those with out spouses and children have more time (and money) to spend on others who are in need. For those who are married that responsibility is always to our own family first.

Jesus has billions of brothers and sisters, because Jesus is the first born of all Gods children.
 
Marriage is a special and unique relationship that can never be replicated by any other relationship, because it is a covenant and the joining together of two people into one union. That's why satan hates marriage and does all he can it minimise its importance, demean it, distort it, and destroy it.
He sometimes even uses so called 'church work' and so called 'Gods work' to come between a husband and wife. 

Offline Cally

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #46 on: Thu Feb 27, 2014 - 17:12:13 »


He said nothing about marriage there. The marriage relationship is unique in that it is a covenant relationship, unlike any other relationships we may have. The two people become one in a spiritual sense.
There are many instructions in the Bible about how we are to be as husband and wives, and also parents. There are also instructions about how we are to care for and provide for other family members.

Jesus was then speaking about God coming first, so that we may be treated badly and maybe even excluded from our families because of our faith.

The two people become one flesh. (Mark 10:8) I see nothing about marriage being a spiritual joining.

What are your comments/beliefs on these scriptures, if you believe that fleshly family comes before the family of God?

Mark 10:29-30
"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel
will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--along with persecutions--and in the age to come eternal life.

Matthew 12:46
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


And let's not argue about nothing. Of course I know what actually IS written regarding marriages.
 

Marriage is a covenant that God ordained, so how can it not be spiritual? Sex is far more than the physical joining.

The church family is important, but our first ministry and responsibility after God is to our spouses and children. 



No comment on the scriptures I quoted?


 I have already commented on them a few posts back.

You only addressed one of those passages.


 No both. AS I said before, Jesus never mentioned marriage in that passage and His meaning is clear. Faith in Him can and does bring problems and separation in families. We are to be prepared to put Him first, even if that means our own families don't like it and reject us. Some even lose their families because of their faith. However God gives clear instructions of what the tasks and responsibilities are toward spouses, children and other family members, especially those in need. After Him they are always our first responsibility and ministry. That's presumably why Paul says what he does about being single, that those with out spouses and children have more time (and money) to spend on others who are in need. For those who are married that responsibility is always to our own family first.

Jesus has billions of brothers and sisters, because Jesus is the first born of all Gods children.
 
Marriage is a special and unique relationship that can never be replicated by any other relationship, because it is a covenant and the joining together of two people into one union. That's why satan hates marriage and does all he can it minimise its importance, demean it, distort it, and destroy it.
He sometimes even uses so called 'church work' and so called 'Gods work' to come between a husband and wife. 

chosenone, my original point (and the point of the Bible's message) is not to "minimize" marriage but just point out that it's not there to meet every relationship need a person has. I think people look to marriages oftentimes to fulfill needs that the Body of Christ is supposed to meet--I think it's clear there's danger in that.

Offline BlueYetti

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #47 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 02:58:31 »
A friend asked me this question the other day, 'What is wrong with me?'   By that, she was saying she's 37 and not married.
It's an interesting question because I think our culture (and churches) do put a negative value on people of a certain age who are not married.   Men over 40 are labelled as either 'gay' or 'commitment phobes' and women can be labelled, as thoguh they are needy, whiny or there is fundamentally something wrong with them.

I really, really dislike that!  I'm 39 and haven't been married....and I don't think there is anything 'wrong' with me.  My non-married state is probably down to a few different things, but in my 20s, I had a huge job that involved regular international travel and so I didn't really settle down or get involved in a church.  I didn't have much of a social life either - just seemed to always be on a plane.   When I was 32, I finally met a man I thought I could spend the rest of my life with.   By the age of 37, it was over - when I discovered that despite us committing to not sleeping together, he was doing some terrible things behind my back.   For a while, life as I knew it literally fell apart.

So here I am today, 39, no immediate signs of a husband on the horizon, but I'm getting on cheerfyully with life.  I have friends, a house, a great job, car, some available income, a wonderful church....but not yet met that guy.

I said to my friend that sometimes it's just circumstances - that's the way things work out.   But I am wondering, how can we fight against this negative attitude in churches, that there is something 'wrong' with people over a certain age who are not married?

Not trying to point fingers, but maybe I am, I have to think about one of Paul's letters that talks about that.  There is nothing wrong with being single in the world, in fact it is probably holier to abstain from companionship.  However, God knows our attraction to the flesh so he has allowed us to marry one another.  And it is not just the pressures of the church, it is society also.  I think it should be commended and celebrated instead of judged and gossiped about.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #48 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 03:39:29 »


He said nothing about marriage there. The marriage relationship is unique in that it is a covenant relationship, unlike any other relationships we may have. The two people become one in a spiritual sense.
There are many instructions in the Bible about how we are to be as husband and wives, and also parents. There are also instructions about how we are to care for and provide for other family members.

Jesus was then speaking about God coming first, so that we may be treated badly and maybe even excluded from our families because of our faith.

The two people become one flesh. (Mark 10:8) I see nothing about marriage being a spiritual joining.

What are your comments/beliefs on these scriptures, if you believe that fleshly family comes before the family of God?

Mark 10:29-30
"Truly I tell you," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel
will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--along with persecutions--and in the age to come eternal life.

Matthew 12:46
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


And let's not argue about nothing. Of course I know what actually IS written regarding marriages.
 

Marriage is a covenant that God ordained, so how can it not be spiritual? Sex is far more than the physical joining.

The church family is important, but our first ministry and responsibility after God is to our spouses and children. 



No comment on the scriptures I quoted?


 I have already commented on them a few posts back.

You only addressed one of those passages.


 No both. AS I said before, Jesus never mentioned marriage in that passage and His meaning is clear. Faith in Him can and does bring problems and separation in families. We are to be prepared to put Him first, even if that means our own families don't like it and reject us. Some even lose their families because of their faith. However God gives clear instructions of what the tasks and responsibilities are toward spouses, children and other family members, especially those in need. After Him they are always our first responsibility and ministry. That's presumably why Paul says what he does about being single, that those with out spouses and children have more time (and money) to spend on others who are in need. For those who are married that responsibility is always to our own family first.

Jesus has billions of brothers and sisters, because Jesus is the first born of all Gods children.
 
Marriage is a special and unique relationship that can never be replicated by any other relationship, because it is a covenant and the joining together of two people into one union. That's why satan hates marriage and does all he can it minimise its importance, demean it, distort it, and destroy it.
He sometimes even uses so called 'church work' and so called 'Gods work' to come between a husband and wife. 

chosenone, my original point (and the point of the Bible's message) is not to "minimize" marriage but just point out that it's not there to meet every relationship need a person has. I think people look to marriages oftentimes to fulfill needs that the Body of Christ is supposed to meet--I think it's clear there's danger in that.

I think that marriage must always come first however, before any other relationship whether that be wider family, friends or church family.
I have some close female friends, but my husband is always first.

Offline BlueYetti

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #49 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 04:12:14 »
Quote
I said to my friend that sometimes it's just circumstances - that's the way things work out.   But I am wondering, how can we fight against this negative attitude in churches, that there is something 'wrong' with people over a certain age who are not married?

I don't know if I smell a negative attitude toward singles in churches, but there is definitely an over-spiritualization of marriage in churches. Marriage is an earthly position in which there are wonderful things to do, and many ways to glorify God as a husband or wife. But, it is an entirely fleshly state--it only lasts this lifetime, as there is no marriage in heaven.

1 Corinthians 7:29
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not;


The point being that a spouse (husband or wife to be clear) is an Earthly "possession" of sorts that is fleeting just like any other. Churches should be emphasizing the spiritual family more (Mark 10:30), but instead tend to talk about marriage as if it's THE be-all-end-all of relationships.

Frankly I think that's the biggest problem with western marriages, ironically enough. It's like if I buy a toaster and expect it to cook toast, mow the lawn, and turn the lights on--that's bound to result in dissatisfaction. We need more talk about spiritual family to put marriage in proportion. If you don't have certain relationship needs that are distinctly fulfilled with marriage and marriage only, then spiritual family has everything else that you need.
 


..........and yet marriage is the bedrock of society. Every time the institution of marriage begins to crumble and weaken in any society(as it is now), that society weakens, morals plummet and things can fall apart. 
I do believe the church family is important, but our own families must come first. As you say its also important that we have the wider family and Christian friends as well.
I know too many couples whose only life was really each other, and when one dies or they divorce, the other is completely lost because they had little life outside their own marriage.

I agree...Vote Republican.  ::pray::

Only kidding.  To be serious though, I am sickened of how quickly society is self-destructing.  And I feel what has been causing all of this is not only pushing Christianity into hiding, but all religions into hiding.  I am not an advocate or supporter of other world religions, but it is somehow a glue that hold society together.  But the problem is that a Pagan society is slowly replacing our country and non-believers don't even recognize what is going on because things are so "cool" now.  I can remember when I was a kid, in my neck of the woods, you were either Christian or a person who makes up excuses of why they don't go to church.  Now in my 40s religion is just stomped on and ridiculed.

I feel bad for the Christian women that feel they have to marry into a secular lifestyle.  But, I am guy I'm not gonna act like I understand.  I just feel for them.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #50 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 04:38:09 »
Quote
I said to my friend that sometimes it's just circumstances - that's the way things work out.   But I am wondering, how can we fight against this negative attitude in churches, that there is something 'wrong' with people over a certain age who are not married?

I don't know if I smell a negative attitude toward singles in churches, but there is definitely an over-spiritualization of marriage in churches. Marriage is an earthly position in which there are wonderful things to do, and many ways to glorify God as a husband or wife. But, it is an entirely fleshly state--it only lasts this lifetime, as there is no marriage in heaven.

1 Corinthians 7:29
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not;


The point being that a spouse (husband or wife to be clear) is an Earthly "possession" of sorts that is fleeting just like any other. Churches should be emphasizing the spiritual family more (Mark 10:30), but instead tend to talk about marriage as if it's THE be-all-end-all of relationships.

Frankly I think that's the biggest problem with western marriages, ironically enough. It's like if I buy a toaster and expect it to cook toast, mow the lawn, and turn the lights on--that's bound to result in dissatisfaction. We need more talk about spiritual family to put marriage in proportion. If you don't have certain relationship needs that are distinctly fulfilled with marriage and marriage only, then spiritual family has everything else that you need.
 


..........and yet marriage is the bedrock of society. Every time the institution of marriage begins to crumble and weaken in any society(as it is now), that society weakens, morals plummet and things can fall apart. 
I do believe the church family is important, but our own families must come first. As you say its also important that we have the wider family and Christian friends as well.
I know too many couples whose only life was really each other, and when one dies or they divorce, the other is completely lost because they had little life outside their own marriage.

I agree...Vote Republican.  ::pray::

Only kidding.  To be serious though, I am sickened of how quickly society is self-destructing.  And I feel what has been causing all of this is not only pushing Christianity into hiding, but all religions into hiding.  I am not an advocate or supporter of other world religions, but it is somehow a glue that hold society together.  But the problem is that a Pagan society is slowly replacing our country and non-believers don't even recognize what is going on because things are so "cool" now.  I can remember when I was a kid, in my neck of the woods, you were either Christian or a person who makes up excuses of why they don't go to church.  Now in my 40s religion is just stomped on and ridiculed.

I feel bad for the Christian women that feel they have to marry into a secular lifestyle.  But, I am guy I'm not gonna act like I understand.  I just feel for them.
 

Why do Christian women have to marry into a secular life style? Do you mean marry a non believer? If so, surely they have a choice?

Offline BlueYetti

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #51 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 05:08:16 »
Quote
I said to my friend that sometimes it's just circumstances - that's the way things work out.   But I am wondering, how can we fight against this negative attitude in churches, that there is something 'wrong' with people over a certain age who are not married?

I don't know if I smell a negative attitude toward singles in churches, but there is definitely an over-spiritualization of marriage in churches. Marriage is an earthly position in which there are wonderful things to do, and many ways to glorify God as a husband or wife. But, it is an entirely fleshly state--it only lasts this lifetime, as there is no marriage in heaven.

1 Corinthians 7:29
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not;


The point being that a spouse (husband or wife to be clear) is an Earthly "possession" of sorts that is fleeting just like any other. Churches should be emphasizing the spiritual family more (Mark 10:30), but instead tend to talk about marriage as if it's THE be-all-end-all of relationships.

Frankly I think that's the biggest problem with western marriages, ironically enough. It's like if I buy a toaster and expect it to cook toast, mow the lawn, and turn the lights on--that's bound to result in dissatisfaction. We need more talk about spiritual family to put marriage in proportion. If you don't have certain relationship needs that are distinctly fulfilled with marriage and marriage only, then spiritual family has everything else that you need.
 


..........and yet marriage is the bedrock of society. Every time the institution of marriage begins to crumble and weaken in any society(as it is now), that society weakens, morals plummet and things can fall apart. 
I do believe the church family is important, but our own families must come first. As you say its also important that we have the wider family and Christian friends as well.
I know too many couples whose only life was really each other, and when one dies or they divorce, the other is completely lost because they had little life outside their own marriage.

I agree...Vote Republican.  ::pray::

Only kidding.  To be serious though, I am sickened of how quickly society is self-destructing.  And I feel what has been causing all of this is not only pushing Christianity into hiding, but all religions into hiding.  I am not an advocate or supporter of other world religions, but it is somehow a glue that hold society together.  But the problem is that a Pagan society is slowly replacing our country and non-believers don't even recognize what is going on because things are so "cool" now.  I can remember when I was a kid, in my neck of the woods, you were either Christian or a person who makes up excuses of why they don't go to church.  Now in my 40s religion is just stomped on and ridiculed.

I feel bad for the Christian women that feel they have to marry into a secular lifestyle.  But, I am guy I'm not gonna act like I understand.  I just feel for them.
 

Why do Christian women have to marry into a secular life style? Do you mean marry a non believer? If so, surely they have a choice?

No disrespect intended.  I have been reading some of the singles threads and there is a lot talk about the women to men ratio(4 to 1) in church.  And there has been a lot of talk about women marrying outside of the church for this reason.  I will be more careful in future posts.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #52 on: Mon Jun 09, 2014 - 05:38:27 »
Quote
I said to my friend that sometimes it's just circumstances - that's the way things work out.   But I am wondering, how can we fight against this negative attitude in churches, that there is something 'wrong' with people over a certain age who are not married?

I don't know if I smell a negative attitude toward singles in churches, but there is definitely an over-spiritualization of marriage in churches. Marriage is an earthly position in which there are wonderful things to do, and many ways to glorify God as a husband or wife. But, it is an entirely fleshly state--it only lasts this lifetime, as there is no marriage in heaven.

1 Corinthians 7:29
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not;


The point being that a spouse (husband or wife to be clear) is an Earthly "possession" of sorts that is fleeting just like any other. Churches should be emphasizing the spiritual family more (Mark 10:30), but instead tend to talk about marriage as if it's THE be-all-end-all of relationships.

Frankly I think that's the biggest problem with western marriages, ironically enough. It's like if I buy a toaster and expect it to cook toast, mow the lawn, and turn the lights on--that's bound to result in dissatisfaction. We need more talk about spiritual family to put marriage in proportion. If you don't have certain relationship needs that are distinctly fulfilled with marriage and marriage only, then spiritual family has everything else that you need.
 


..........and yet marriage is the bedrock of society. Every time the institution of marriage begins to crumble and weaken in any society(as it is now), that society weakens, morals plummet and things can fall apart. 
I do believe the church family is important, but our own families must come first. As you say its also important that we have the wider family and Christian friends as well.
I know too many couples whose only life was really each other, and when one dies or they divorce, the other is completely lost because they had little life outside their own marriage.

I agree...Vote Republican.  ::pray::

Only kidding.  To be serious though, I am sickened of how quickly society is self-destructing.  And I feel what has been causing all of this is not only pushing Christianity into hiding, but all religions into hiding.  I am not an advocate or supporter of other world religions, but it is somehow a glue that hold society together.  But the problem is that a Pagan society is slowly replacing our country and non-believers don't even recognize what is going on because things are so "cool" now.  I can remember when I was a kid, in my neck of the woods, you were either Christian or a person who makes up excuses of why they don't go to church.  Now in my 40s religion is just stomped on and ridiculed.

I feel bad for the Christian women that feel they have to marry into a secular lifestyle.  But, I am guy I'm not gonna act like I understand.  I just feel for them.
 

Why do Christian women have to marry into a secular life style? Do you mean marry a non believer? If so, surely they have a choice?

No disrespect intended.  I have been reading some of the singles threads and there is a lot talk about the women to men ratio(4 to 1) in church.  And there has been a lot of talk about women marrying outside of the church for this reason.  I will be more careful in future posts.


 Dont worry, I just wasnt sure what you meant. Yes it is a problem for women especially as they get older. When I was single again in my 40's it was impossible to meet a single guy of around that age in church, (there werent any!) which is why I went onto a Christian relationship site.  There were about 3 or 4 women to each man on there in that age range, and that got worse in the older age ranges.
Some women do marry non believers but it isn't what God wants, but maybe they think its that or nothing. I wasnt going to get involved with a non believer, as I knew that was second best, but I can see why some get fed up waiting and take the matter into their own hands.

Offline INTJer

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #53 on: Thu Aug 07, 2014 - 11:01:14 »
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I'm in an unusual situation myself. I'm never married and here I am 52 years old wondering if I should even bother. I think I'm more or less a normal man. I know the stereotypes are that an older never married man is gay, or he is a playboy, or he lived most of his life in his parents' basement, playing video games. I know there are ugly stereotypes for older single women.

I grew up rather introverted. A geek in a sense - my idea of fun even as a child was to read a science or history book. There was an art museum and a science museum and I liked to visit both. I was bored and frustrated with high school. By the time I was a young adult, I was pretty much a loner. My family background was such that I grew up listening to Classical music and Jazz - sometimes I felt like I was born in the wrong century. There wasn't any "scene" I fit into well. My parents weren't happy togther so there was always drama and tension at home.

Anyway, I worked my way through college, I had a series of not so great jobs but have had a good career for the past 15 years. While many men my age were raising a family I was occupied with building a career and I also spent a lot of time helping to take care of my elderly parents. My sister and I took turns helping to take care of a parent with Alzheimer's - we both had work on top of that. So the "best" years of my life were spent with long hours at work plus being a part-time caretaker. I admit I went for years burned out and I had gotten a rather negative view of life.

I am at a more tranquil part of my life now. I have had a few relationships over the years - not many but at least they weren't train wrecks. I have avoided sources of drama such as addictions. My idea of a fun Saturday includes taking a 10 mile hike - it does not include being glued to the TV for some game. I tried some "Christian" dating sites and I had dialog with some women. I am Protestant but go to a church that has a very formal liturgy. A lot of the women I had dialog with didn't like that. It would seem that going to a liturgical church service is only something the "unsaved" do. Sigh. I don't go around judging people from other traditions but there are of course some churches where I fit in better than others - that doesn't mean people who are different from me aren't saved. I really feel like giving up, lol. What do you do if you don't fit in well culturally and other ways? I guess I am mildly eccentric but not in any creepy or unhealthy or immoral ways. I'm far, far from perfect. Sorry I wrote too much.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #54 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 10:27:38 »
I've enjoyed reading this thread. I'm in an unusual situation myself. I'm never married and here I am 52 years old wondering if I should even bother. I think I'm more or less a normal man. I know the stereotypes are that an older never married man is gay, or he is a playboy, or he lived most of his life in his parents' basement, playing video games. I know there are ugly stereotypes for older single women.

I grew up rather introverted. A geek in a sense - my idea of fun even as a child was to read a science or history book. There was an art museum and a science museum and I liked to visit both. I was bored and frustrated with high school. By the time I was a young adult, I was pretty much a loner. My family background was such that I grew up listening to Classical music and Jazz - sometimes I felt like I was born in the wrong century. There wasn't any "scene" I fit into well. My parents weren't happy togther so there was always drama and tension at home.

Anyway, I worked my way through college, I had a series of not so great jobs but have had a good career for the past 15 years. While many men my age were raising a family I was occupied with building a career and I also spent a lot of time helping to take care of my elderly parents. My sister and I took turns helping to take care of a parent with Alzheimer's - we both had work on top of that. So the "best" years of my life were spent with long hours at work plus being a part-time caretaker. I admit I went for years burned out and I had gotten a rather negative view of life.

I am at a more tranquil part of my life now. I have had a few relationships over the years - not many but at least they weren't train wrecks. I have avoided sources of drama such as addictions. My idea of a fun Saturday includes taking a 10 mile hike - it does not include being glued to the TV for some game. I tried some "Christian" dating sites and I had dialog with some women. I am Protestant but go to a church that has a very formal liturgy. A lot of the women I had dialog with didn't like that. It would seem that going to a liturgical church service is only something the "unsaved" do. Sigh. I don't go around judging people from other traditions but there are of course some churches where I fit in better than others - that doesn't mean people who are different from me aren't saved. I really feel like giving up, lol. What do you do if you don't fit in well culturally and other ways? I guess I am mildly eccentric but not in any creepy or unhealthy or immoral ways. I'm far, far from perfect. Sorry I wrote too much.
 

Well if you are content the way you are then thats good isnt it? I think that you may find it hard to marry after all this time of being single, having to think of another and maybe children as well if she has them, after only having to think of what you want all these years may be quite challenging. 

Must admit having been bought up in that very formal 'high' church setting, I wouldnt want to go back to it, so I can sort of understand why some people wouldn't want that. I do think that we need to be with someone who is on the same wavelength spiritually, so that both feel at home in the same sort of church. 

Offline R-Simon

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #55 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 14:09:48 »
I am a male in my mid 50s, never married and in about the same position as another poster.  In my 20s I was very busy starting a career.  In my early 30s I had a problem involving chronic pain that made it very hard to do anything other than just keep my income and career going.  I dealt with that problem for years, after it was corrected with surgery my company released a new product, this required me to work up to 70 hours a week.  I have always had one of those jobs where if they hire you they often need you for 60+ hours a week or they don't need you at all.
By the time things seemed to settle down I was in my early-mid 40s,  I decided that was it, quite happy with the way things were I would just stay single.

It seems that some in the Church (usually not the Church by policy) don't always have a good way of dealing with us, as if there was something wrong.  I have noticed the situation where there seems to be more single women in the singles groups and pastors pushing the single guys to "get involved".
I had a friend who goes to a mega-church where everything is broadcast, placed on DVDs etc direct me to a multi-part series about "the gift of being single".  I wasn't impressed with that pastor so I wasn't inclined to listen to much of it but this was mostly suggesting single folks should be making some herculean effort in other Church related activities or making lots of money so they could give it to his church, a church that has a very large overhead and does almost nothing in the mission field. (to be fair they believe just having a large church in a large suburban area is their mission).  When the reasons one should not be single all boiled down to selfishness I was done listening to that presentation.

I've also decided not to date.  Some single people are so desperate they will accept things like "friendship dates" hoping something else will develop later down the line.  Then there is the problem with well intentioned but poorly skilled folks who somehow think they are match-makers.  The hardest part about that is I feel I am rejecting people when they try to pull this.  I usually feel bad about saying no, especially to fellow Christians.  At the end of the day that's it, they are going to get softly and kindly rejected.
The idea that maybe I came from a dysfunctional family environment and have a negative view of family, that folks suspect one may be "gay", that somebody's selfish and other suspicions do bother me but there is nothing I can do about it.  Even getting a little defensive in a society where many think they are amateur psychologists is a really bad idea so it's best to just shake my head or say no and smile.  I only give a "life story" and answer a string of questions to the people that are really close friends. 

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #56 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 14:47:08 »
I suppose their thought is that if you are single and childless you have far more spare time for other things, which is true. Also you only have to support yourself and have had more time to build up your career, so you probably do generally have more spare money for yourself. You dont need to have a big place to live so that is also cheaper than needing a larger house for a family, so I can see where they are coming  from. The few people I know who have never been married in the church have generally been called into some sort of ministry, which maybe why they weren't to marry.
There are also many more single women in the church than single men, so you can also sort of understand why they are encouraging the few single men to get involved. I feel for these ladies who are doomed to never marry because of the shortage of men. 

If you have no intention of ever dating or marrying, you just need to be honest and say so, rather than leaving people in the dark.

Offline R-Simon

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #57 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 16:06:59 »
About the statement in the post -
"If you have no intention of ever dating or marrying, you just need to be honest and say so, rather than leaving people in the dark. "
--

If that was to me, I don't leave folks in the dark, I tell them I'm a confirmed batchelor as soon as any issue involving that comes up.
There can be negative people in the churches at times, also lots of gossip etc.  Often it's best to hold back on the details except for closer friends.

The presentation from the mega-church pastor was very poor, some of us are more conservative and not at all impressed with the "Motivational Speaker" type of presentations where little scripture is used and when it is it's always out of context.  I was surprised that none of the conditions and situations applied to me, my friend should have known this but supposedly directed me to the presentation after listening to it.
Also I'm not at all convinced that giving money to churches with food courts and bowling alleys, sending kids to youth conferences where they drop Mentos in soda, listen to "Christian punk-rock" or "Christian heavy metal" and other such activities is giving to God in any way shape or form.

I do give, but the whole issue with money and accumulating wealth is much harder these days.  My father had an old style pension that would provide him money until he died.  Many of us these days have self-directed plans.  Having studied financial planning (really being taught as I don't teach it) there are some hard issues to face
- If the market crashes as in a depression or collapse do I have enough money? - Probably not
- If I need long-term care in a couple of decades do I have enough money? -  Probably not
- Because of previous health problems and family history I should be more conservative
- I actually have no idea if I'm a hundreds of thousands underfunded or over-funded after lots of study.

Being confirmed by a more conservative assembly I would never have even considered dating a divorced woman, I understand the problems in society, all I can do is be thankful that there is none of that in my family, that is parents, siblings and their children.  I'm still not sure about the remarriage/divorce issue, I have no problem with those who have made these mistakes working things out finding each other and I'm sort of softening up on that view.  I never bring it up in fellowship because so many are on 2nd and 3rd marriages etc.
In one assembly where I didn't join the pastor was sort of pushy about it in the sermons, at least once sort of throwing down a guilt trip, I didn't feel that was correct.
I do feel bad for folks who are in a bad situation for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 00:07:52 by R-Simon »

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #58 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 17:45:14 »
About the statement in the post -
"If you have no intention of ever dating or marrying, you just need to be honest and say so, rather than leaving people in the dark. "
--

If that was to me, I don't leave folks in the dark, I tell them I'm a confirmed batchelor as soon as any issue involving that comes up.
There can be negative people in the churches at times, also lots of gossip etc.  Often it's best to hold back on the details except for closer friends.

The presentation from the mega-church pastor was very poor, some of us are more conservative and not at all impressed with the "Motivational Speaker" type of presentations where little scripture is used and when it is it's always out of context.  I was surprised that none of the conditions and situations applied to me, my friend should have known this but supposedly directed me to the presentation after listening to it.
Also I'm not at all convinced that giving money to churches with food courts and bowling alleys, sending kids to youth conferences where they drop Mentos in soda, listen to "Christian punk-rock" or "Christian heavy metal" and other such activities is giving to God in any way shape or form.

I do give, but the whole issue with money and accumulating wealth is much harder these days.  My father had an old style pension that would provide him money until he died.  Many of us these days have self-directed plans.  Having studied financial planning (really being taught as I don't teach it) there are some hard issues to face
- If the market crashes as in a depression or collapse do I have enough money? - Probably not
- If I need long-term care in a couple of decades do I have enough money? -  Probably not
- Because of previous health problems and family history I should be more conservative
- I actually have no idea if I'm a hundreds of thousands underfunded or over-funded after lots of study.

Being confirmed by a more conservative assembly I would never have even considered dating a divorced woman, I understand the problems in society, all I can do is be thankful that there is none of that in my family, that is parents, siblings and their children.  I'm still not sure about the remarriage/divorce issue, I have no problem with those who have made these mistakes working things out finding each other and I'm sort of softening up on that view.  I never bring it up in fellowship because so many are on 2nd and 3rd marriages etc.
In one assembly where I didn't join the pastor was sort of pushy about it in the sermons, at least even once sort of throwing down a guilt trip, I didn't feel that was correct.
I do feel bad for folks who are in a bad situation for whatever reason.



 Presumably you would give money to the churches and ministries you liked, which would be ones that you thought were spending money wisely and for good purposes. I dont know any churches here in the UK that have or do any of the things you mentioned. I am sure there are some there but many who are far wiser with their spending. There are also many good ministries who we can support. 

I dont worry about money and savings much. We have little financially, but God says that if we give we will reap, and also he says that He will always provide for all our needs, so why worry?I would love to be able to give more, as I love giving. Cant believe you are talking about 100's of thousands of dollars. I dont know anyone who has that sort of money or anywhere near it. If we need money when we are older then God will need to provide it because we havent got it. Its actually good that we need to depend on God for our needs, because it really stretches our faith. Its easy to 'trust' God when we have lots of money in savings.     

I have no problems with divorced people being married again depending on their circumstances.  In fact both my husband and I both had previous long marriages that ended because of Biblically allowed reasons. He is the best husband ever. We married in our late 40's after meeting on line, and have been happily married nearly 9 years now.

If you are happy being single, then maybe thats what God has called you to be and maybe thats for a specific reason. As I said you can give more time and money that a married person, as you only have yourself to look after. Your options are wider in many ways for you to work for God.

Offline R-Simon

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #59 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 18:26:05 »
I would imagine things are different in the UK than in the States.  Social security pays less if one contributes less, it isn't a charity program and no, just because one worked hard making less doesn't mean one has "earned it".

In many communities Social security would pay about as much per month as renting an apartment.  That's without considering food, medical co-payments, dental etc.  Those who are stuck with only Social Security and no savings can move in with relatives or perhaps rent a room, they can try to apply for low-income or assisted housing but that's hard to get.

Here is why it's hard to calculate, my father had a pension that paid about 60,000 (I don't need that much).  One reason he had that was because of shared risk, some folks die 1 year after retirement while others live past age 90.
I don't have that.  If I did want to draw 60,000 a year at age 65 my current adviser tells me I need about 1.2 million USD.  It's possible to live to age 90 and run out of money at age 75, that's why advisers teach a more conservative approach.   Long term assisted care or the possibility of needing such makes things even more complicated.
The value of my father's pension was transparent, he didn't actually have the money and couldn't see the actual value, when he died there was no residual value left to the estate, it went to others who lived longer.  I am not in that system, I can see the value of my accounts every day if I wish to check.

I do understand the points about remarriage, but please understand that some of us were confirmed in very conservative assemblies that taught in effect "no remarriage after divorce" and either took this seriously or had a "better safe than sorry" approach.
I you wish to learn about some of the unusual practices in US mega-churches that can be web searched and even seen on YouTube videos.  Some of the criticism goes too far in the other direction but that should be obvious.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 00:21:09 by R-Simon »

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #60 on: Fri Aug 08, 2014 - 22:16:05 »
I would imagine things are different in the UK than in the States.  Social security pays less if one contributes less, it isn't a charity program and no, just because one worked hard making less doesn't mean one has "earned it".

In many communities Social security would pay about as much per month as renting an apartment.  That's without considering food, medical co-payments, dental etc.  Those who are stuck with only Social Security and no savings can move in with relatives or perhaps rent a room, they can try to apply for low-income or assisted housing but that's hard to get.

Here is why it's hard to calculate, my father had a pension that paid about 60,000 (I don't need that much).  One reason he had that was because of shared risk, some folks die 1 year after retirement while others live past age 90.
I don't have that.  If I did want to draw 60,000 a year at age 65 my current adviser tells me I need about 1.2 million USD.  It's possible to live to age 90 and run out of money at age 75, that's why advisers teach a more conservative approach.   Long term assisted care or the possibility of needing such makes things even more complicated.
The value of my father's pension was transparent, he didn't actually have the money and couldn't see the actual value, when he died there was no residual value left to the estate, it went to others who lived longer.  I am not in that system, I can see the value of my accounts every day if I wish to check.

I do understand the points about remarriage, but please understand that some of us were confirmed in very conservative assemblies that taught in effect "no remarriage after divorce" and either took this seriously or had a "better safe than sorry" approach.
I you wish to learn about some of the unusual practice is US mega-churches that can be web searched and even seen on YouTube videos.  Some of the criticism goes too far in the other direction but that should be obvious.


 You are very blessed to have that sort of money. I suppose that's one advantage of being single. However we will need to rely on God because we dont. If we need residential care when we are old, we have to sell our homes to pay for it. Its only when we get down to £23,000 that the govt will pay. Not much to leave our kids is it. You would probably be shocked at how little we have, but honestly we don't worry because God has made promises.

When it comes to matters such as divorce and remarriage, I believe that we each need to study the subject for ourselves and not believe everything that some churches or preachers say. I studied it for some time, and it made me understand what God is saying and it was very helpful.  I was bought up in a very traditional high church like yours, but I didnt believe all they taught. I left as soon as soon as I could as well, and now attend more informal type churches. 

We have a tiny number of the larger churches in the UK, and they are doing amazing work, especially attracting large numbers of young people who are becoming believers, and I love that.  They also do a lot of work in their communities.

Offline R-Simon

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #61 on: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 10:47:17 »
I agree that unwinding from learned Church doctrine and teaching can take quite a while, especially for those who took early Christian instruction seriously.  Often the passage Matthew 5:32 "and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." was taken to be a commandment for the Church.
Jesus lived his life as an Old Testament Jew under the Torah; the temple was in place and the sacrifices were being made.  He verifies this in passages like Matthew 23 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."  After the glorification of Christ we will hear nothing more of listening to the authority of those in the Temple system.
Many of us were taught that everything in the Gospels like the Sermon on the Mount was in effect a string of commandments for the Church.  We had to relearn and unwind, throwing out opinions of instructors we probably respected and thought much of.

I think you're still not getting the idea that having a modern retirement plan where the money is held by the individual vs a classic retirement plan has nothing to do with being single.  Professional couples where both have a better job than I often have 2-5 times as much as I hold and I know folks like that.

Suppose for example a couple in the UK each had the British version of Social Security and one had a very small pension adding up to £18,000 a year.  Right now interest rates on bank notes, high quality bonds, dividends by quality stocks etc are fairly low.  If I wanted to set up a retirement account with such instruments that paid this much and included a provision for inflation, a fund that would pay either party without failure even if one lived to age 97 the value would probably be well over £300,000.
The couple doesn't actually hold the money but they are getting the value of it.  The payments were promised and funded on behalf of the retiree; the money doesn't magically come from God.  God does provide from his position outside time and in eternity, knowing the beginning from the end.  That doesn't mean retirement accounts are coming from God because somebody paid a tithe to a prosperity preacher.

As for those of us who chose to remain single for various reasons including a chain of circumstances I guess we'll just have to put up with various prejudice and misconceptions. 
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 18:41:05 by R-Simon »

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #62 on: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 11:24:19 »
I agree that unwinding from learned Church doctrine and teaching can take quite a while, especially for those who took early Christian instruction seriously.  Often the passage Matthew 5:32 "and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." was taken to be a commandment for the Church.
Jesus lived his life as an Old Testament Jew under the Torah; the temple was in place and the sacrifices were being made.  He verifies this in passages like Matthew 23 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."  After the glorification of Christ we will hear nothing more of listening to the authority of those in the Temple system.
Many of us were taught that everything in the Gospels like the Sermon on the Mount was in effect a string of commandments for the Church.  We had to relearn and unwind, throwing out opinions of instructors we probably respected and thought much of.

I think you're still not getting the idea that having a modern retirement plan where the money is held by the individual vs a classic retirement plan has nothing to do with being single.  Professional couples where both have a better job than I often have 2-5 times as much as I hold and I know folks like that.

Suppose for example a couple in the UK each had the British version of Social Security and one had a very small pension adding up to £18,000 a year.  Right now interest rates on bank notes, high quality bonds, dividends by quality stocks etc are fairly low.  If I wanted to set up a retirement account with such instruments that paid this much and included a provision for inflation, a fund that would pay either party without failure even if one lived to age 97 the value would probably be well over £300,000.
The couple doesn't actually hold the money but they are getting the value of it.  The payments were promised and funded on behalf of the retiree; the money doesn't magically come from God.  God does provide from his position outside time and in eternity, knowing the beginning from the end.  That doesn't mean retirement accounts are coming from God because somebody paid a tithe to a prosperity preacher.

As for those of use who chose to remain single for various reasons including a chain of circumstances I guess we'll just have to put up with various prejudice and misconceptions. 



I cant say I have heard any sort of prejudice against single people. I know quite a few singles in their 30's-50's who would love to marry(men and women) but I cant say any of them have said they encounter prejudice. I think its accepted in the church, especially for women, that there will be singles, because there simply arent enough partners to go round. At one time in my church I was the only divorced person and the only single mum, and that was pretty hard in a church that was 90% families, but I didnt encounter prejudice. Maybe the British are too polite to say anything. lol . Now we have several divorced people.

re pensions. DH lost a lot of his small pension when one of the insurance companies here went bad. He also gave his ex wife the house. Thats the sort of guy he is.
My retirement fund, which was with my former husbands work pension, went with the divorce. My solicitor wasnt happy that I wasnt going after half of it, but my ex said that if I did he would go after half the house(worth about the same as the pension) and being that I had 3 children in a small 3 bed house anyway that wasnt an option. So I have no pension except the govt one which  we have paid for with our national insurance contributions all out working lives, it is small and we dont get it till we are 66.  So yes we are completely dependent on God for our future if Jesus hasnt returned by then.  ::eek::  Honestly we just dont worry about it. Either He means what he says or He doesnt. I also do believe that if we give we receive back from Him. It is biblical.

God Bless
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 11:31:20 by chosenone »

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #63 on: Sat Aug 09, 2014 - 11:27:23 »
I also agree that it takes time to unlearn things that we have been taught. I spent about 10 years with God, unlearning wrong stuff and I had picked up. SO much had to be knocked down and dismantled so that He could then begin to show me what was really important and true.

I am very careful now which churches I go to, so that I dont pick up more wrong beliefs.     

Offline DaveW

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #64 on: Sun Aug 10, 2014 - 09:59:19 »
I cant say I have heard any sort of prejudice against single people. I know quite a few singles in their 30's-50's who would love to marry(men and women) but I cant say any of them have said they encounter prejudice. I think its accepted in the church, especially for women, that there will be singles, because there simply arent enough partners to go round. At one time in my church I was the only divorced person and the only single mum, and that was pretty hard in a church that was 90% families, but I didnt encounter prejudice. Maybe the British are too polite to say anything. lol . Now we have several divorced people.

The prejudice is not overt.  It is more in just not making any allowances for the older singles.  No body has to say anything but when the programs and group activities are all designed for married couples then the older single is just left out.   

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #65 on: Sun Aug 10, 2014 - 10:38:14 »
I cant say I have heard any sort of prejudice against single people. I know quite a few singles in their 30's-50's who would love to marry(men and women) but I cant say any of them have said they encounter prejudice. I think its accepted in the church, especially for women, that there will be singles, because there simply arent enough partners to go round. At one time in my church I was the only divorced person and the only single mum, and that was pretty hard in a church that was 90% families, but I didnt encounter prejudice. Maybe the British are too polite to say anything. lol . Now we have several divorced people.

The prejudice is not overt.  It is more in just not making any allowances for the older singles.  No body has to say anything but when the programs and group activities are all designed for married couples then the older single is just left out.   
 

Well that is sort of understandable when there are so few of any particular group. People who are in those small groups sometimes need to organize  something for themselves rather than expect someone else to. One of the men here(sorry I forget which one) did say that people try and get him to go to groups for those in his position, but he doesnt want to because there are far more women. Going to a group doesnt mean you are looking for a date surely,  just that you can spend time with those who get where you are coming from.

When I think of the time I was a divorced single mum, it was hardly going to be worth a church having a group for those in my position because the numbers were so small, and because most of the congregation were nearly all families.  A church a few miles away from me did run a divorce recovery workshop, because although they were smaller than my church at that time, they did happen to have a fair number of people who had sadly had to go through a divorce, so they ran that group themselves for others who had as well.  I am not sure we can belong to a church and expect them to have something for every single group of people, unless you attend one of those 'mega' churches when they do seem to have something for everyone.

I suppose the ideal is that we are all mixed together as a family anyway,  and not separate into different types of groups for different people. Like a normal family there will always be different ages, sexes, and those of different marital status, those with small children,  those with older children, grandparents, singles. widows and widowers, spouses whose other halves dont attend church and so on.

Offline DaveW

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #66 on: Sun Aug 10, 2014 - 11:01:48 »
I suppose the ideal is that we are all mixed together as a family anyway,  and not separate into different types of groups for different people. Like a normal family there will always be different ages, sexes, and those of different marital status, those with small children,  those with older children, grandparents, singles. widows and widowers, spouses whose other halves dont attend church and so on.

Someone once said that here in the US the most racially segregated place was church on Sunday morning. 

I submit that it applies to many other areas than just race.  As a white man I should not be going to the black Methodist church walking distance from my house. 

But when you enter the building there are classes for infants, preschoolers; every grade level has a separate class and most have one for college students and another for non-collegians of the same age.  God forbid that they ever get intermixed.

In a normal family these are all together but in church they all are segregated out.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #67 on: Sun Aug 10, 2014 - 11:11:18 »
I suppose the ideal is that we are all mixed together as a family anyway,  and not separate into different types of groups for different people. Like a normal family there will always be different ages, sexes, and those of different marital status, those with small children,  those with older children, grandparents, singles. widows and widowers, spouses whose other halves dont attend church and so on.

Someone once said that here in the US the most racially segregated place was church on Sunday morning. 

I submit that it applies to many other areas than just race.  As a white man I should not be going to the black Methodist church walking distance from my house. 

But when you enter the building there are classes for infants, preschoolers; every grade level has a separate class and most have one for college students and another for non-collegians of the same age.  God forbid that they ever get intermixed.

In a normal family these are all together but in church they all are segregated out.


  Yes there does need to be different teaching groups for different age groups because small children need something very different from, say, teenagers, or then again adults. The midweek groups we have are usually pretty mixed as far as age and marital status goes unless there is a men's breakfast or women's evening or whatever, which I also feel can be quite important in their own way.

When it comes to say, a social event such as a BBQ,  that is for whoever wants to go and everyone is included/invited.   We do have quite a mix of nationalities/colours in our church, with British, Africans, Iranians, Indians, South Africans, Australians and probably more I dont know of.  Its not really a very mixed race area unlike where I was bought up, but even so there is a good mix and I like that a lot. 
« Last Edit: Sun Aug 10, 2014 - 11:15:33 by chosenone »

Offline R-Simon

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #68 on: Mon Aug 11, 2014 - 14:02:47 »
There are many things in the churches and many different groups in the Church, some may not encounter all of what is out there.
There was one mega-church that was close to work and I had many friends and co-workers attending.
The pastor only mentioned things like "God hates divorce" a few times, every time he did he felt he had to backpedal even to the point of apologizing profusely to his audience.
This same pastor was constantly pushing for guys to get involved in the singles groups and more than once belittled guys who didn't want to get married or remarry.  One can only imagine he was under some sort of pressure to do this but it was never explained.  It even got to the point of blaming guys who don't marry or remarry for the unfortunate situation of women, especially single mothers etc.  The idea was there is always something wrong with the guys.

In every case I know of where people find themselves in poverty or near-poverty situations at retirement after living mostly a middle-class life it's because of divorce; sadly it's almost always the women that get the short end of the stick.  I would suggest this has absolutely nothing to do with people who don't marry and everything to do with divorce.

That's not the reason I didn't join and decided to move on though.  I did that because of things like --
- Preaching the prosperity Gospel
- speculating how big one's checking account in heaven would be if folks tithe {I'm actually understating this one}
- unusual signs and wonders that don't line up with scripture
- fire tunnels {people can web search this or see it on YouTube}
- Christian music where they ask the fire of God to come down
- pastors who claim to have some special anointing nobody else has [as in "the anointing"]
- Strange guest speakers claiming to have a strange anointing that could be passed on by the laying on of hands
- One of the guest speakers yelling "spread like a virus" as he lays hands on folks
- A strange desire to give disgraced pastors a 2nd chance, always somebody who "has the anointing"
- The head pastor claiming to have a strange anointing for money because Oral Roberts told him that.
- Constant name dropping because of relationships and encounters with celebrities.

It actually didn't seem that bad at first, I don't know if they changed over time or it slowly became obvious to me that something was wrong there.

Offline chosenone

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Re: What is wrong with me?
« Reply #69 on: Mon Aug 11, 2014 - 14:33:07 »
There are many things in the churches and many different groups in the Church, some may not encounter all of what is out there.
There was one mega-church that was close to work and I had many friends and co-workers attending.
The pastor only mentioned things like "God hates divorce" a few times, every time he did he felt he had to backpedal even to the point of apologizing profusely to his audience.
This same pastor was constantly pushing for guys to get involved in the singles groups and more than once belittled guys who didn't want to get married or remarry.  One can only imagine he was under some sort of pressure to do this but it was never explained.  It even got to the point of blaming guys who don't marry or remarry for the unfortunate situation of women, especially single mothers etc.  The idea was there is always something wrong with the guys.

In every case I know of where people find themselves in poverty or near-poverty situations at retirement after living mostly a middle-class life it's because of divorce; sadly it's almost always the women that get the short end of the stick.  I would suggest this has absolutely nothing to do with people who don't marry and everything to do with divorce.

That's not the reason I didn't join and decided to move on though.  I did that because of things like --
- Preaching the prosperity Gospel
- speculating how big one's checking account in heaven would be if folks tithe {I'm actually understating this one}
- unusual signs and wonders that don't line up with scripture
- fire tunnels {people can web search this or see it on YouTube}
- Christian music where they ask the fire of God to come down
- pastors who claim to have some special anointing nobody else has [as in "the anointing"]
- Strange guest speakers claiming to have a strange anointing that could be passed on by the laying on of hands
- One of the guest speakers yelling "spread like a virus" as he lays hands on folks
- A strange desire to give disgraced pastors a 2nd chance, always somebody who "has the anointing"
- The head pastor claiming to have a strange anointing for money because Oral Roberts told him that.
- Constant name dropping because of relationships and encounters with celebrities.

It actually didn't seem that bad at first, I don't know if they changed over time or it slowly became obvious to me that something was wrong there.
   

Well many of those things do sound weird. I am all for Gods children using the gifts of the spirit, as taught about by Paul, but I wouldnt feel comfortable at that church either.
I know few people who have that sort of money in retirement, married or divorced, but as a believer I really dont worry because I have seen him provide for us in the past and he will do again.
As for divorce, if you ask 20 believers what God says about divorce you will get 20 different answers, and they all believe they are right. I believe that we have a God of new beginnings and fresh starts, and who will restore to us all that we have lost. I have seen this in my own life.

 

     
anything