10 Reasons not to believe in eternal torment.

[godisuniversal]

    * Church of God (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
    * Church of God (Holiness)
    * Church of God (Restoration)
    * Churches of God General Conference (Winebrenner)
    * Church of the Nazarene
    * Evangelical Free Church of America
    * Harmony Society
    * Missionary Church
    * Salvation Army
    * United Christian Church
    * Wesleyan Church
    * Alliance of Baptists
    * American Baptist Association
    * American Baptist Churches USA
    * Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland
    * Association of Grace Baptist Churches
    * Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America
    * Association of Regular Baptist Churches
    * Baptist Bible Fellowship International
    * Baptist Conference of the Philippines
    * Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec
    * Baptist Convention of Western Cuba
    * Baptist General Conference (Sweden)
    * Baptist General Conference of Canada
    * Baptist General Convention of Texas
    * Baptist Missionary Association of America
    * Baptist Union of Australia
    * Baptist Union of Great Britain
    * Baptist Union of New Zealand
    * Baptist Union of Scotland
    * Baptist Union of Western Canada
    * Baptist World Alliance
    * Bible Baptist
    * Black Primitive Baptists
    * Canadian Baptist Ministries
    * Canadian Convention of Southern Baptists
    * Central Baptist Association
    * Central Canada Baptist Conference
    * Christian Unity Baptist Association
    * Conservative Baptist Association
    * Conservative Baptist Association of America
    * Continental Baptist Churches
    * Convención Nacional Bautista de Mexico
    * Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches
    * Convention of Baptist Churches of Northern Circars
    * Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
    * European Baptist Convention
    * European Baptist Federation
    * Evangelical Baptist Mission of South Haiti
    * Evangelical Free Baptist Church
    * Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada
    * Free Will Baptist Church
    * Fundamental Baptist Fellowship of America
    * General Association of Baptists
    * General Association of General Baptists
    * General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
    * General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
    * General Six-Principle Baptists
    * Grace Baptist Assembly
    * Independent Baptist
    * Independent Baptist Church of America
    * Independent Baptist Fellowship International
    * Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America
    * Interstate & Foreign Landmark Missionary Baptist Association
    * Landmark Baptist Church
    * Liberty Baptist Fellowship
    * Myanmar Baptist Convention
    * Nagaland Baptist Church Council
    * National Association of Free Will Baptists
    * National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
    * National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
    * National Baptist Evangelical Life and Soul Saving Assembly of the U.S.A.
    * National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
    * National Primitive Baptist Convention of the U.S.A.
    * New England Evangelical Baptist Fellowship
    * New Testament Association of Independent Baptist Churches
    * Nigerian Baptist Convention
    * North American Baptist Conference
    * North Bank Baptist Christian Association
    * Norwegian Baptist Union
    * Old Baptist Union
    * Old Regular Baptist
    * Old Time Missionary Baptist
    * Primitive Baptist
    * Progressive Baptist
    * Progressive National Baptist Convention
    * Reformed Baptist
    * Regular Baptist Churches, General Association of
    * Regular Baptist
    * Samavesam of Telugu Baptist Churches
    * Separate Baptist
    * Separate Baptists in Christ
    * Seventh Day Baptist
    * Southeast Conservative Baptist
    * Southern Baptist Convention
    * Southern Baptists of Texas
    * Sovereign Grace Baptists
    * Strict Baptists
    * Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists
    * Union d'Églises baptistes françaises au Canada
    * United American Free Will Baptist Church
    * United American Free Will Baptist Conference
    * United Baptist
    * United Baptist Convention of the Atlantic Provinces
    * United Free Will Baptist
    * Unregistered Baptist Fellowship
    * World Baptist Fellowship
    * The Spiritual Baptist Archdiocese of New York, Inc.
    * Apostolic Catholic Church (ACC)
    * Catholic Apostolic Church
          o New Apostolic Church
                + United Apostolic Church
          o Old Apostolic Church
          o Restored Apostolic Mission Church
    * Apostolic Church
    * Apostolic Faith Church
    * Apostolic Faith Mission of South Africa

[godisuniversal]

    * Assemblies of God
          o Assembleias de Deus
          o Assemblies of God in New Zealand
          o Assemblies of God in the United Kingdom
          o Assemblies of God in Vietnam
          o Australian Christian Churches
          o General Council of the Assemblies of God of the United States
          o Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
    * Australian Fellowship of Faith Churches and Ministers Int. (AFFCMI)
    * Believers Church
    * Bible-Pattern Church Fellowship
    * Calvary Holiness Association
    * Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
    * Charisma Christian Church
    * Christ Gospel Churches International
    * Christian City Churches
    * Christian Church of North America
    * Christian Congregation of Brazil
    * Christian Outreach Centre
    * Christian Revival Crusade
    * Church of God (Charleston, Tennessee)
    * Church of God (Chattanooga)
    * Church of God (Cleveland)
    * Church of God (Huntsville, Alabama)
    * The Church of God (Jerusalem Acres)
    * Church of God by Faith
    * The Church of God for All Nations
    * Church of God, House of Prayer
    * Church of God in Christ
    * Church of God Mountain Assembly
    * Church of God of Prophecy
    * Church of God of the Original Mountain Assembly
    * Church of God of the Union Assembly
    * Church of God with Signs Following
    * Church of the Foursquare Gospel in the Philippines
    * Church of the Little Children of Jesus Christ
    * Congregational Holiness Church
    * CRC Churches International
    * Destiny Church
    * Elim Fellowship
    * Elim Pentecostal Church
    * Evangelical Pentecostal Church of Besançon
    * Every Nation Churches
    * The Fellowship (FGFCMI)
    * Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas
    * Free Apostolic Church of Pentecost
    * Gereja Pantekosta di Indonesia
    * God is Love Pentecostal Church
    * Holiness Baptist Association
    * Independent Assemblies of God, International
    * Indian Pentecostal Church of God
    * International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
    * International Pentecostal Church of Christ
    * International Pentecostal Holiness Church
    * Life Application Gospel Ministries International
    * Mission of Full Gospel - Christian Open Door
    * New Life Churches
    * New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc
    * Open Bible Standard Churches
    * Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada
    * Pentecostal/Charismatic Churches of North America
    * Pentecostal Church of God
    * Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church
    * The Pentecostal Mission
    * Pentecostal World Conference
    * Potter's House Christian Fellowship
    * Redeemed Christian Church of God
    * Revival Centres International
    * The Revival Fellowship
    * United Gospel Tabernacles
    * United Holy Church of America
    * Association of Vineyard Churches
    * Calvary Chapel
    * Charismatic Episcopal Church
    * City Harvest Church
    * Faith Christian Fellowship International
    * Full Gospel
    * Jesus Army
    * Ministries of His Glory
    * Ministries Without Borders
    * New Frontiers
    * Sovereign Grace Ministries
    * Bible Christian Mission
    * Local churches
    * Destiny Church Groningen
    * Born Again Movement

[farouk]

Make the  Bible the judge of issues, not the professing church. The Lord Jesus said 'Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy Word is truth' (John 17.17)

[godisuniversal]

    * New Life Fellowship
    * True Jesus Church
    * Apostles of Johane Marauke
    * Christ Apostolic Miracle Ministry
    * Celestial Church of Christ
    * Christ Apostolic Church
    * Church of the Lord (Aladura)
    * Eternal Sacred Order of Cherubim and Seraphim
    * Kimbanguist Church
    * Zion Christian Church
    * China Christian Council
    * Church of Bangladesh
    * Church of Pakistan
    * Church of North India
    * Church of South India
    * Evangelical Church in Germany
    * Mar Thoma Church
    * Protestant Church in the Netherlands
    * St. Thomas Evangelical Church
    * United Church of Canada
    * United Church in Jamaica and the Cayman Islands
    * United Church in Papua New Guinea and the Solomon Islands
    * United Church of Christ in the Philippines
    * Uniting Church in Australia
    * Evangelical Friends International
    * Friends General Conference
    * Friends United Meeting
    * Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
    * Churches of Christ
    * Churches of Christ (non-institutional)
    * Churches of Christ in Australia
    * Evangelical Christian Church in Canada (Christian Disciples)
    * Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ
    * International Churches of Christ (Boston Movement)
    * Christian Israelite Church
    * Adventist Church of Promise
    * Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church
    * General Conference of the Church of God (Seventh-Day)
    * Seventh-day Adventist Church
    * Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
    * Branch Davidians
    * Church of the Great God
    * Living Church of God
    * Philadelphia Church of God
    * True Jesus Church
    * United Church of God
    * United Seventh-Day Brethren
    * Advent Christian Church
    * Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)
    * Church of the Blessed Hope (aka Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
    * Assemblies of Yahweh
    * House of Yahweh
    * British-Israel-World Federation
    * Christian Identity and other white separatist/supremacist groups
          o Church of Jesus Christ-Christian (Aryan Nations)
          o Kingdom Identity Ministries
          o LaPorte Church of Christ
    * The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord
    * Revival Centres International
    * The Revival Fellowship
    * Worldwide Church of God
    * Associated Gospel Churches of Canada (AGC)
    * Children of God a.k.a. "The Family International", "Family of Love", "The Family"
    * Church of Christ, Instrumental (Kelleyites)
    * Christian Conventions (aka Two by Twos, The Truth, The Way)
    * Christian & Missionary Alliance
    * Cooneyites (not to be confused with Christian Conventions, above)
    * Eternal Grace
    * Evangelical Church of West Africa
    * Evangelical Covenant Church of America ("Swedish Evangelical Mission Covenant")
    * Evangelical Free Church of Canada
    * Fellowship of Fundamental Bible Churches
    * Grace Movement Churches
    * Great Commission Association
    * Shakers
    * Indian Shakers
    * Jesus Movement
    * Methernitha
    * Metropolitan Community Churches
    * Native American Church
    * New Frontiers (formerly New Frontiers International)
    * Schwenkfelder Church
    * Strigolniki
    * Universal Life
    * Yehowists (aka Yehowists-Ilyinites, Russian Jehovists)
    * Church of Christ (Temple Lot) (Hedrickites)
    * Church of Christ with the Elijah Message
    * Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)
    * Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)
    * Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)
    * Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
    * Independent RLDS / Restoration Branches
    * Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
    * Restored Church of Jesus Christ (Eugene O. Walton)
    * Apostolic United Brethren
    * The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) - by far the largest Latter Day Saint denomination
    * Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS)
    * Latter Day Church of Christ (Kingston Clan)
    * The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days
    * Aaronic Order
    * Restoration Church of Jesus Christ
    * Apostolic Assemblies of Christ
    * Apostolic Assembly of the Faith in Christ Jesus
    * Apostolic Brethren
    * Apostolic Gospel Church of Jesus Christ
    * Apostolic Overcoming Holy Church of God
    * Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ
    * Bible Way Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ
    * Church of Jesus Christ
    * Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ of the Apostolic Faith
    * House of Prayer Christian Church
    * Pentecostal Assemblies of the World
    * United Pentecostal Church International
    * American Unitarian Conference
    * International Council of Unitarians and Universalists
          o Australian and New Zealand Unitarian Universalist Association (ANZUUA)
          o Canadian Unitarian Council
          o Deutsche Unitarier Religionsgemeinschaft, Germany
          o European Unitarian Universalists
          o General Assembly of Unitarian and Free Christian Churches, United Kingdom & Ireland
          o Unitarian Universalist Association
          o Unitarian Universalist Society of Spain
          o Unitarisk Kirkesamfund, Denmark
    * Socinianism (extinct as a modern and distinct group)
          o Polish Brethren (extinct as a modern and distinct group)
    * Christian Millennial Fellowship
    * Dawn Bible Students Association
    * Jehovah's Witnesses
    * Layman's Home Missionary Movement
    * Pastoral Bible Institute
    * General Church of the New Jerusalem
    * Swedenborgian Church of North America formerly General Convention of the New Jerusalem
    * Christadelphians
    * Christian Conventions (aka, Assemblies of Christians, Two-by-Twos, The Truth, etc.)
    * Church of Christ, Scientist
    * Church of the Blessed Hope (one of the groups otherwise known as Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith)
    * Doukhobors ("Spirit-Wrestlers")
    * Friends of Man
    * Iglesia ni Cristo
 * Makuya
    * Members Church of God International
    * Molokans
    * Most Holy Church of God in Christ Jesus
    * Subbotniks
    * Unification Church
    * Universal Alliance
    * Chosen People Ministries
    * Jews for Jesus
    * Messianic Bureau International
    * Messianic Jewish Alliance of America
    * Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC)
    * Church of Divine Science[7]
    * Unity Church[8]
    * Candomblé
    * Vodou
    * Rastafari movement
    * Santería
    * Santo Daime
    * Umbannd
    * Anthroposophical Society of Rudolf Steiner
    * Archeosophical Society of Tommaso Palamidessi
    * Lectorium Rosicrucianum of Jan van Rijckenborgh/Catharose de Petri
    * Martinism of Louis Claude de Saint-Martin et al.
    * Societas Rosicruciana by Masons
    * The Rosicrucian Fellowship of Max Heindel


As we see, there are a few denominations. (And this is by no means a complete list as wikipedia will attest)  
I wonder if ANY of these are the 'right' way?    Just as well Jesus died for the sins of the entire world really.

[godisuniversal]

Make the  Bible the judge of issues, not the professing church. The Lord Jesus said 'Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy Word is truth' (John 17.17)

I strongly agree.
If people don't do that, they will forever be clinging to a 'belief system', of which there are thousands.

[Sherman Nobles]

Note, I did not say that everyone born is saved.  I simply noted a couple of the scriptures that speak of God saving all people and I believe that God will accomplish what He's said He has done, is doing, and will do.   And your reasoning thats such a belief negates the need for or importance of studying the Bible, praying, or having a relationship with Christ is, well, not only unscriptural and illogical, but even foolish

Since I am one of the main ones guilty of being inflammatory in this thread, please accept my apologies and allow me a little space to "redeem" myself. ( that's a really sad play on words  )

At any rate one thing at a time lets start with the statement above.
If God Saved all people,  are you not saying that all are saved?
If all are Saved, are you not saying everyone is born saved?
just explained that.

There is a vast difference between being saved in the eternal and being saved in the present.  As Jarrod noted, salvation in scripture primarily references the current state of one's soul.  Is one currently in right relationship with God?  Does one currently have faith in Christ and is one in the now following the Lord? If not, one is living under a sence of judgment and is perishing.  So though in the eternal God works everything out and brings everyone into the fullness of His plan - everyone is saved, in the present most people are bound in sin - not saved.   In fact, when we are born physically we are bound in sin, the Adamic nature, separated from God by the sins of our fathers, and quickly begin sinning for ourselves exasperating the separtion from God.  And those who do not recieve Christ continue in such bondage to sin until the die!  

It seems that salvation to you is predominantly about possibly getting into heaven some day.  Salvation to me speaks predominantly about living in a right relationship with God now, getting heaven into us today, and having a hope of and faith in the greater fulfillment of such to come.

If all are Saved why not tell everyone they are Saved and leave it at that?

Because in the present all are not Saved; in fact, most are NOT saved - in the now.

If everyone is Saved what is the compelling reason for a person to read the Bible, learn and understand the Gospel ...much less study , pray, witness to others and spend  time in fellowship with the Lord?

Again, in the NOW most people are NOT saved.  Actually, most people are bound by satan in sin and condemnation.  Most people are separated from God and the blessings of the kingdom of God.  What is it then that motivates us to pray, witness, study, even fast?  Love!  We love God and our fellow man, and we sacrifice our lives to deliver our brothers from the bondage of satan and the rule of sin.  

I don't get it, how do you minister to Christ to an inmate?
How do you minister Salvation to an inmate on Death Row ....why bother?
How do you minister Salvation to a prostitute?
Do you just tell these people don't worry about a thing because they are already Saved?

I typically use the "Share Jesus Without Fear" approach when sharing my faith in Christ, and facilitate people hearing God speak to them through Scripture.  After a brief interview to find out where a person is in their relationship with Christ, if I'm not confident that they know Christ, then I take them to the following scriptures, ask them to read it and ask them what it says to them.

Rom.3:23  deals with the issue of sin
Rom.6:23   deals with the penalty of sin
John 3:3   notes how to enter a relationship with Christ
John 14:6     deals with the uniqueness of Christ
Rom.10:9-11  affirms the importance of faith and confession
2 Cor.5:15   affirms the importance of a life submitted to Christ
Rev.3:20    affirms that we have an important choice to make

Throughout, I ask them to read the scriptures out loud, and ask them what the scriptures say to them.  And it's amazing to see God work in a person's life, bringing conviction of sin and a motivation for repentance and a new life.  

Please explain yourself, so far all you and Jiggy have said is everyone is Saved no matter what then when its repeated back to you you say we don't understand what you believe.

I just explained myself again.  And actually, what I've predominantly and repeatedly pointed out is that scripture does not teach that anyone will be subjected to "endless torment" in the afterlife.  Not one word in the Hebrew or Greek text of scripture should be interpreted as "Hell"; rather, scripture speaks of judgment and remedial punishment in the afterlife for all, even us believers.  In fact, judgment starts with us believers, the community of faith; and Jesus' words concerning Gehenna warn of judgment based on works, how one actually lives, especially for us who believe.  We who have been priviledged to recieve the Word and have faith in Christ are all the more accountable to live right and be a blessing to others, to walk in love and forgiveness, and to boldly share the Good News of Salvation in Christ!

Jesus' warning of Gehenna is for us all - not just unbelievers!  We shall all face the judgement and the evil of our lives will be burnt up, and even the good will be purified as if by fire.  Frankly, the fire of Truth will burn the hell out of us all!  

Thus on one hand, though I do believe scripture
1) does not threaten "endless torture" for anyone, and
2) indicates that God will in the end reconcile all to Himself
I also believe that scripture:
3) warns of judgment of works and Remedial Punishment for all, even or especially us who believe!

You're telling us the gift is imposed upon those who don't even want it  and Jiggy is saying every knee means everyone will be made to agree while I think every knee includes demons and devils as well, for they already know who Jesus is but they won't bow until they have no choice

Nevertheless they are still doomed are they not?

I too believe in the Restoration of all things, including the devil and his angels, though such is only alluded to a little in scripture.  Scripture predominantly deals with man's relationship to God, and speaks little of God's plan for the devil and his angels.

Concerning every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord, I too believe that scripture indicates that one day all of humanity will joyfully confess their faith in Christ and revell in the salvation of the Cross!  In the light of eternity, freed from the bondage of Satan and his deception, who would not choose to respond to the Love of God!  We are created for relationship with God, and though some of us try to find fulfillment in other things, one day we'll all come to the truth and realize our need of God and be drawn by the revelation of His love for us!  In fact, pain, suffering, and punishment for sin (in this life and the life to come) is used by God to bring us to our senses, repent and turn to Him, responding to His love for us.  In fact, many, if not most, people who are not raised Christian, come to the Lord only after they have reached the bottom and realize their need of God.  

[godisuniversal]

Heaven would never be heaven if a loved one was lost, indeed, it would be hell to anyone who has a hint of love in them.  Hell would be better than heaven if it meant being with those we love.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Heaven would never be heaven if a loved one was lost, indeed, it would be hell to anyone who has a hint of love in them.  Hell would be better than heaven if it meant being with those we love.

This is either an intentional exaggeration for effect, or you're losing touch with reality.  I'm hoping for the former.

[Sherman Nobles]

Several yeas ago I had an opportunity to share the Gospel with my cousin.  Our conversation went something like this:

First I asked the diagnostic questions:

Me - Do you have any spiritual beliefs.
Him - Yes, I believe in God.

Me - To you who is Jesus?
Him - He's the Son of God.  

Me -  Afterlife, heaven, hell, what do you believe about these?
Him - I believe there is a heaven and a hell.

Me - When you die, where do you think you'll go?
Him - Hell I suppose.

Me - Why?
Him - You know me; my life is a mess!

Me - Well if what you believed was not true, would you want to know it?
Him - Of course I would!

I then took him through the scriptures.  I asked him to read aloud Rom.3.23 out loud, and asked him what it said to Him. First he replied, "It says everyone has sinned."  I then asked him what it said "To Him".  He asked if he could read it to himself; to which I gladly agreed, thinking, "sure, go ahead and meditate on the Word awhile!".  

After a few minutes, he lifted his head and with eyes widened like he'd just a revelation, like the lights had just come on, he said, "It says that everyone has sinned, NOT JUST ME!"  As I took him through scripture, God revealed to him His love and acceptance, revealed to him that salvation and relationship with God is based solely upon Grace.  It was amazing.  I didn't teach him anything, but God revealed His love to him powerfully.  

I then asked him a few questions to see if he would like to give his life to the Lord, to which he responded that he had done so when he was a child and a few times since then.  He'd even tried to turn his life around including going to church.  But when he went to church, he'd come away feeling more condemned and hopeless than when he went in.  He then, with complete sincerity, asked me, "Sherman, do you know any churches that teach this?"  To which I gladly responded, yes, and told him of a couple in his area that are Grace-based congregations.  

It truly is the goodness of God that draws us to repentance.  It's His love for us that empowers us to respond to Him in love.  It's God's Spirit that convicts people of sin and of judgment and draws people to himself.  And it's the cross, the greatest revelation of God's love for humanity, that is the most powerful means of drawing people to God.  Didn't Jesus say, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." Jn.12.32.

[HeavensTears]

"Can't we all just get along?"  Rodney King, Los Angeles Riots 1992

Why can't we just post Scripture for our argument, then our own interpretation and just do it in a polite manner?

We make our disagreement personal and say sarcastic things and then the argument devolves and just turns into personal flaming.

I have been guilty of this myself.  Let's just agree to disagree.  There's nothing wrong in having an opposing view, just in personalizing the arguments.

If you and I disagree about the rapture, it's not a salvation issue.  If we disagree about the millennium, it's not a salvation issue.

Eternal torment is not a salvation issue.  To some people baptism IS a salvation issue but if you disagree just give your point of view without being sarcastic.  You may be wrong  I know I have been wrong once or twice in my 65 years  

One of the wisest comments I've read in this forum. 

[Dayvd]

I know this has been posted many times but here it is again.

Col 1:19-23   For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.   This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly. Don't drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed by God to proclaim it.

The Good News is that everyone is reconciled back to Father through Christ and His death on the cross has made us acceptable, holy and righteous with God.

I think I'm seeing this one also quite differently.  It seems to me that if we choose to not contnue to believe then we revert back to being an enemy of God in both thought and action.  This would include the denial of God and/or cursing God.  If I choose to deny your action to mend our loving relationship, then how is forcing yourself upon me loving?  We simply must make the choice and we need to continue to make that choice.

If everyone is reconciled, wouldn't that be against some peoples free will?

If it's gonna happen(and I have no choice) then why must I continue to believe?

Not if they choose to be reconciled. Do you disagree with what Paul said here?

If they choose to be reconciled then there is no question.  My question regarded those who choose otherwise.

Of course I agree, as I'm sure you probably agree.  That's really not even an issue for me.

Paul said in his letter to the believers at Philippi that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, so it sounds to me that everyone eventually chooses to accept Christ's sacrifice.

I must admit I'm a little confused Jiggy.  You asked me if I believed the Co. verse to which I kindly answered and asked you a question.  To which you ignored and referred to another verse.  Which version of the Bible are you using?  I only ask cause I checked my 4 favorites and none of them say "will bow".  It might be helpful if we both used the same version.  In one version it used "should" bow with the idea that would being the past tense of "shall" and implies by force.  So while I have no question that all shall, why would those who choose need to be forced?

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore your question, it just doesn't have an effect on Paul's statement that God reconciled all things.

I believe it does have an effect and quite a large one.

In a very simple example there are 2 friends.  One day one of the friends makes a comment causing a seemingly non-fixable breach in their relationship.  Life continues this way until one day the friend who has caused no harm to the relationship takes an action that allows the former relationship to resume.  God has indeed, thru the death of Jesus, made it possible for the former relatioship to be mended.  But in any relationship there is always 2 seperate parties involved.  Simply because God has made a resumption of the relationship possible, doesn't mean that it automatically happens.  Thus my question: what of those who refuse to acknowledge the action of God or who simply disbelieve or worse yet those who, believe and yet refuse to embrace the action?


 

Now as far as the scripture in Philippians I see no force there, lets look at the two words in the Greek text.

" should bow" KJV
 κάμπτω
kamptō
kamp'-to
Apparently a primary verb; to bend: - bow.

"should confess" KJV

exomologeō
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.

Do you still see any force here? I'm sorry but I simply don't see it, I see everyone coming into agreement that Jesus is Lord.

10That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee [a]should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

   

Footnotes:
Philippians 2:10 "Should" is the past tense of "shall," implying authority or compulsion.

Amplified Bible

[Dayvd]

The "continue to believe" has to do with being totally righteous and holy because of what Jesus did on the cross. If we stop believing that we are holy and acceptable to Father because of Jesus' sacrifice then we will resort back to the "law" and begin doing works for our own righteousness.

I see the continue to believe simply because if we don't we are at great risk of reverting back to being enemies of God thru our thoughts and actions. Essentially making the death of Jesus to no effect.  Both parties need to agree in order for recociliation to occur.  One party can take action in order for that reconciliation to even be possible, but both need to be involved and agree upon the terms.

[jiggyfly]

I know this has been posted many times but here it is again.

Col 1:19-23   For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.   This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. He has done this through his death on the cross in his own human body. As a result, he has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault. But you must continue to believe this truth and stand in it firmly. Don't drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News. The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed by God to proclaim it.

The Good News is that everyone is reconciled back to Father through Christ and His death on the cross has made us acceptable, holy and righteous with God.

I think I'm seeing this one also quite differently.  It seems to me that if we choose to not contnue to believe then we revert back to being an enemy of God in both thought and action.  This would include the denial of God and/or cursing God.  If I choose to deny your action to mend our loving relationship, then how is forcing yourself upon me loving?  We simply must make the choice and we need to continue to make that choice.

If everyone is reconciled, wouldn't that be against some peoples free will?

If it's gonna happen(and I have no choice) then why must I continue to believe?

Not if they choose to be reconciled. Do you disagree with what Paul said here?

If they choose to be reconciled then there is no question.  My question regarded those who choose otherwise.

Of course I agree, as I'm sure you probably agree.  That's really not even an issue for me.

Paul said in his letter to the believers at Philippi that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, so it sounds to me that everyone eventually chooses to accept Christ's sacrifice.

I must admit I'm a little confused Jiggy.  You asked me if I believed the Co. verse to which I kindly answered and asked you a question.  To which you ignored and referred to another verse.  Which version of the Bible are you using?  I only ask cause I checked my 4 favorites and none of them say "will bow".  It might be helpful if we both used the same version.  In one version it used "should" bow with the idea that would being the past tense of "shall" and implies by force.  So while I have no question that all shall, why would those who choose need to be forced?

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore your question, it just doesn't have an effect on Paul's statement that God reconciled all things.

I believe it does have an effect and quite a large one.

In a very simple example there are 2 friends.  One day one of the friends makes a comment causing a seemingly non-fixable breach in their relationship.  Life continues this way until one day the friend who has caused no harm to the relationship takes an action that allows the former relationship to resume.  God has indeed, thru the death of Jesus, made it possible for the former relatioship to be mended.  But in any relationship there is always 2 seperate parties involved.  Simply because God has made a resumption of the relationship possible, doesn't mean that it automatically happens.  Thus my question: what of those who refuse to acknowledge the action of God or who simply disbelieve or worse yet those who, believe and yet refuse to embrace the action?


 

Now as far as the scripture in Philippians I see no force there, lets look at the two words in the Greek text.

" should bow" KJV
 κάμπτω
kamptō
kamp'-to
Apparently a primary verb; to bend: - bow.

"should confess" KJV

exomologeō
ex-om-ol-og-eh'-o
From G1537 and G3670; to acknowledge or (by implication of assent) agree fully: - confess, profess, promise.

Do you still see any force here? I'm sorry but I simply don't see it, I see everyone coming into agreement that Jesus is Lord.

10That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee [a]should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

  

Footnotes:
Philippians 2:10 "Should" is the past tense of "shall," implying authority or compulsion.

Amplified Bible

Well can you show me the Greek word in this text that is translated as "shall"?

ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός

Here's KJV keyed with Strongs
Php 2:10  ThatG2443 atG1722 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 everyG3956 kneeG1119 should bow,G2578 of things in heaven,G2032 andG2532 things in earth,G1919 andG2532 things under the earth;G2709
Php 2:11  AndG2532 that everyG3956 tongueG1100 should confessG1843 thatG3754 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 is Lord,G2962 toG1519 the gloryG1391 of GodG2316 the Father.G3962

I think the reason your having a hard time understanding this scripture is because  you are putting emphasis on a word that is not part of the original text.

[Sherman Nobles]

Arminianist doctrine is founded upon the concept of Human Autonomy, man's free will.  However, in the scope of our lives, we actually have very little "free-will".  We do not choose when to be born, to whom to be born to, where we'll be born, what talents we'll have, what spiritual gifts we'll have, how intelligent we'll be, whether we'll ever hear the gospel, how our environment will influence us towards accepting or rejecting Christ "IF" we even hear the gospel, how the events in our lives will shape our character, how long we'll live, etc., etc. etc.  Scripture even speaks of God choosing those who will recieve Christ in this life, those who the Calvinists call the Elect. 

When one considers the vast difference between how Much God chooses for our lives and how Little we chose in our lives, the concept that God would punish terribly and endlessly those who make wrong choices in this life is certainly not just. 

Not only that, but to punish someone endlessly for temporal wrongs is also unjust.  Even human judicial systems punish people based on the severity of the crime; how much more would the Righteous One also limit the severity of punishment based on the crime. 

Of course, the above is just logic, not scripture.  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that indicates that punishment from God is not only just and limited, but it is even Remedial and meant to cause a positive change in us.  It is the discipline that a loving father applies to his children.   

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Well can you show me the Greek word in this text that is translated as "shall"?

ἵνα ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ πᾶν γόνυ κάμψῃ ἐπουρανίων καὶ ἐπιγείων καὶ καταχθονίων καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός

Here's KJV keyed with Strongs
Php 2:10  ThatG2443 atG1722 theG3588 nameG3686 of JesusG2424 everyG3956 kneeG1119 should bow,G2578 of things in heaven,G2032 andG2532 things in earth,G1919 andG2532 things under the earth;G2709
Php 2:11  AndG2532 that everyG3956 tongueG1100 should confessG1843 thatG3754 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 is Lord,G2962 toG1519 the gloryG1391 of GodG2316 the Father.G3962

I think the reason your having a hard time understanding this scripture is because  you are putting emphasis on a word that is not part of the original text.

The word "shall" is translated from G1843 by examining the case of the word, rather than the root of the word.  The lexicon does not give this information but you can find it in a good interlinear Bible.

In this case, the case of the word (aorist subjunctive) expresses an action which is not certain but possible, though perhaps doubtful.

"Might confess" would be the best literal translation, but should is just fine, in the sense that they ought to.