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Author Topic: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?  (Read 22843 times)

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Offline gospel

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Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 17:36:17 »

I say no what say you?  ::reading::

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Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 17:36:17 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 18:19:02 »

I say no what say you?  ::reading::

I agree.

For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:16,17)

He made no atonement for the sins of angels.

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 18:19:02 »

larry2

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 18:36:31 »

Satan has been judged - John 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Believers are being judged - 1 Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. 

The unbeliever will be judged - Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

larry2

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 18:49:19 »

I say no what say you?  ::reading::

I agree.

For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:16,17)

He made no atonement for the sins of angels.
[/size]

Angel is simply a word for messenger, though there are created heavenly angels, and created men that are God's messengers; some godly, some not.

Revelation 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 
Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
 
Jesus' angel is a redeemed saint of God of our brethren.


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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 18:49:19 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 19:01:04 »

I say no what say you?  ::reading::

I agree.

For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:16,17)

He made no atonement for the sins of angels.
[/size]

Angel is simply a word for messenger, though there are created heavenly angels, and created men that are God's messengers; some godly, some not.

Revelation 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
  
Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
  
Jesus' angel is a redeemed saint of God of our brethren.



Larry2---

You need to see the context though.  Agreed---an angel can be any kind of messenger, however Hebrews 1 is speaking of created beings called "angels". It ends with verse 14 which says they are "ministering spirits sent forth to help those who will be the heirs of salvation".  The whole chapter is showing that Jesus is far above created angels, and is God himself.  It is speaking specifically of a group of created spirit beings----not of others designated "angels" as messengers at other times in the Bible.  The writer of Hebrews is making a very specific point.

This leads into Hebrews 2 which is following the same subject line.  The same "angels" he is referring to in Hebrews 1 he is referring to once again in Hebrews 2----it is a line of thought.  He says it is"not angels he helps, but Abraham's
descendants".  He is making a difference between a group of created spirit beings, and MAN.  It is very important one read in context when a specific line of thought is being followed.

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #4 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 19:01:04 »



Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #5 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 20:01:49 »

I say no what say you?  ::reading::

I agree.

For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. (Heb 2:16,17)

He made no atonement for the sins of angels.

Who Hoo!!!!

Great verse Fish ......

Manna to you my brother!

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #6 on: Mon Mar 29, 2010 - 20:02:38 »

Satan has been judged - John 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Believers are being judged - 1 Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God. 

The unbeliever will be judged - Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


larry2 As usual you are right on target again!

Manna and good day to you!

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 30, 2010 - 13:25:30 »
I think some people believe they can but are hesitant to come forth.....

 ::announcment:: come out come out wherever you are!!

 ::smile::

larry2

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 30, 2010 - 14:49:56 »
I think some people believe they can but are hesitant to come forth.....

 ::announcment:: come out come out wherever you are!!

 ::smile::

You just met a Universalist on another thread if he believes as some others do.

Offline butterfly320

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #9 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 00:30:04 »
The greater clarity of the angelic intellect compared with that of a human's makes their sin far more inexcusable than that of a human being, whose judgment is often clouded by the limitations and weaknesses of flesh. Hence their choice, their rebellion, once made, is made forever.
And I personally don’t believe Megs should be attacked for reviewing Coach handbags as “Thomas
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 22:25:53 by butterfly320 »

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #10 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 00:38:07 »
There is nothing in scripture that indicates that Jesus christ shed His blood for the Devil and His Angels nor His seed.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #11 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 12:15:42 »
The greater clarity of the angelic intellect compared with that of a human's makes their sin far more inexcusable than that of a human being, whose judgment is often clouded by the limitations and weaknesses of flesh. Hence their choice, their rebellion, once made, is made forever.
__________________
There is nothing in scripture that indicates that Jesus christ shed His blood for the Devil and His Angels nor His seed.


 ::amen!::

Offline rezar

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #12 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 12:26:24 »
I agree. The Devil was judged- not "redeemed." In fact he caused & his influence still causes people to live in spiritual darkness.


Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #13 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 12:37:45 »
What I want to know is
Do you believe Satan and Fallen Angels can be redeemed? ::shrug::

For the third or fourth time recently on this forum (though worded differently each time and on different threads):

Redeem = to purchase back.  To my knowledge, scripture does not indicate that Satan and the Fallen Angels are "redeemed".  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that even Satan and the Fallen Angels are reconciled to God, though it be through fire.  Of course, scripture is predominantly about God reconciling, redeeming all of humanity to Himself; and little is spoken of the ultimate end of Satan and the fallen angels. 

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion! 

Offline fish153

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #14 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 12:56:17 »
What I want to know is
Do you believe Satan and Fallen Angels can be redeemed? ::shrug::

For the third or fourth time recently on this forum (though worded differently each time and on different threads):

Redeem = to purchase back.  To my knowledge, scripture does not indicate that Satan and the Fallen Angels are "redeemed".  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that even Satan and the Fallen Angels are reconciled to God, though it be through fire.  Of course, scripture is predominantly about God reconciling, redeeming all of humanity to Himself; and little is spoken of the ultimate end of Satan and the fallen angels. 

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion! 

Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #15 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 12:59:36 »
Quote
For the third or fourth time recently on this forum (though worded differently each time and on different threads):

Redeem = to purchase back.  To my knowledge, scripture does not indicate that Satan and the Fallen Angels are "redeemed".  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that even Satan and the Fallen Angels are reconciled to God, though it be through fire.  Of course, scripture is predominantly about God reconciling, redeeming all of humanity to Himself; and little is spoken of the ultimate end of Satan and the fallen angels.

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion!

Sherman I know the actual meaning of Redemption

Therefore your astute defining of Redemption aside..... in not quite so much multitudinously superfluity of words can you please tell us yes or no

Will Satan and Fallen Angels be reconciled to God or will they experience eternal damnation and the hell fire of everlasting torment

Yes or No? Yea or Nay? Which do you believe? ::shrug::



Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #16 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 13:14:25 »
What I want to know is
Do you believe Satan and Fallen Angels can be redeemed? ::shrug::

For the third or fourth time recently on this forum (though worded differently each time and on different threads):

Redeem = to purchase back.  To my knowledge, scripture does not indicate that Satan and the Fallen Angels are "redeemed".  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that even Satan and the Fallen Angels are reconciled to God, though it be through fire.  Of course, scripture is predominantly about God reconciling, redeeming all of humanity to Himself; and little is spoken of the ultimate end of Satan and the fallen angels. 

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion! 

Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Go Fish!!!

And hence the fatal flaw in Sherman's definition of purification through hell fire...sounds good, intellectually fascinating.
Titillating and comforting to itching ears but not what the bible is trying to get across.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41

"Some" people, those who are on Jesus left, the side of His disfavor, not under His Grace specifically those who are accursed by God.... will go to the place prepared for the devil and his angels!

According to the bible, the only thing pure about that place is it will be a place of pure torment and pure hell in the descriptive sense  ::reading::   

I think if God calls a person accursed they are indeed accursed.

Unbelievers need to know that!
Otherwise, Sherman with respect to you as a person and please forgive me if you are offended by this but unbelievers are being done a dis-service when you are feeding them a bunch of mealy mouth wishy washy un-scriptural nonsensical ideas.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...you need to line up the whole counsel of God, line upon line and start eating of the Tree of Life and toss that rotten apple aside!

btw.... I do know it wasn't really an apple  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #17 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 14:23:02 »

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion! 


Oh my, would God Who is love allow any to ever suffer huh? A rabid dog? Maybe with such compassion He allowed His Son Jesus off from paying the full penalty for us with just a slap on the hand. Such thinking is what brings about false religion. 

This is nothing but another outrageous attempt to spread an ungodly doctrine of Universalism in my opinion. God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me. Do you understand the following verse in Revelation 20:10?  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Are you calling God a liar?

My thoughts.

 

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #18 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 15:53:59 »

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion!


Oh my, would God Who is love allow any to ever suffer huh? A rabid dog? Maybe with such compassion He allowed His Son Jesus off from paying the full penalty for us with just a slap on the hand. Such thinking is what brings about false religion.  

This is nothing but another outrageous attempt to spread an ungodly doctrine of Universalism in my opinion. God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me. Do you understand the following verse in Revelation 20:10?  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Are you calling God a liar?

My thoughts.

  

 ::amen!::

Thanks bro larry...I hate to be so blunt as to appear to be rude and judgmental but this guy has shown himself to be somewhere beyond scripture, somewhere far beyond the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
His self righteous indignation and intellectual snobbishness towards we who adhere to scripture is an indication of where he is coming from.
He wants to extend the definition of eternal fire to mean the purification of Satan and fallen Angels for the sake of being able to say that men who suffer the same fate as they will also be purified!

But you know and I know...none of that is in the bible! It takes a really bright guy with a whole lot of IQ and a whole lot of time on his hands to come up with something as far out as that!

It just goes to show, just as the problems in the world are compounded and made worse by foolish men with foolish solutions devoid of godly wisdom and understanding  ::juggle::
...just about anything can be reasoned and made to appear logical while godly wisdom and understanding is simply reasoned away and the wisdom of men and human intellect go unchecked and are exalted to the high places where they should not...

....like the Asherah poles in the OT

Bro Sherman please take note.....we ain't bowing! ::frown::

larry2

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #19 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 16:09:43 »

Amen Brother gospel. So says my Lord in Isaiah 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Attempting to restrict our infinite God to man's finite thinking is why doctrines like that arise because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar. 

 

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 17:01:00 »
Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Hi Fish,

As you likely know, Revelation is interpreted 4 different ways in the church - preterist, historical, metaphorical, and futuristic.  And even if one does interpret it futuristically, there are several different ways it is interpreted futuristically.  Thus when it comes to doctrine, I tend to rely more upon doctrinally oriented books like the Epistles and the Gospels.  Prophetic literature by it's very nature is meant more to inspire than it is to instruct.

That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically.  
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 08:23:03 by Sherman Nobles »

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 17:01:00 »
I think God can do anything.

Just because He said He wasn't going to do something, doesn't mean He can't.  It just means He won't.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 17:09:11 »
Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Hi Larry,

As you likely know, Revelation is interpreted 4 different ways in the church - preterist, historical, metaphorical, and futuristic.  And even if one does interpret it futuristically, there are several different ways it is interpreted futuristically.  Thus when it comes to doctrine, I tend to rely more upon doctrinally oriented books like the Epistles and the Gospels.  Prophetic literature by it's very nature is meant more to inspire than it is to instruct.

That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically. 

Sherman you're really deep!

Personally I'm thankful that neither Jesus or His disciples were as intelligent as you for if they were we'd all be practicing Gnostics!  ::doh::

Satan and his angels are crispy critters...trust me, no better yet trust the Word!

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 17:18:57 »
That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.
Actually, it tosses el diablo into the old absu (the abyss, the bottomless pit) for 1K years, and the lake del fuego later. 

They aren't the same place.  A quick look at Jude validates the pit as a separate place.  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 17:48:09 »

Sherman Nobels - That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

larry2 -No sir, Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, then released for a time and he gathers the nations to compass the camp of the saints, and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Notice that in Revelation 17:8. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." Now this is a reference to the antichrist, but it shows a difference in the bottomless pit and perdition.
 
Sherman Nobels - Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

larry2 - You can attempt to throw any spin you want to at it, but the fact remains that Satan is to be tormented in the lake of fire forever; that is God's word. Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Torment forever is not a metaphor.
 
Sherman Nobels - When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically.

larry2 - Maybe you should just quit attempting to make scripture fit your theology, and instead make your theology fit scripture.

My thoughts.

Offline fish153

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 18:58:04 »
Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Hi Larry,

As you likely know, Revelation is interpreted 4 different ways in the church - preterist, historical, metaphorical, and futuristic.  And even if one does interpret it futuristically, there are several different ways it is interpreted futuristically.  Thus when it comes to doctrine, I tend to rely more upon doctrinally oriented books like the Epistles and the Gospels.  Prophetic literature by it's very nature is meant more to inspire than it is to instruct.

That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically.  

Sherman---

I'm not Larry, It's fish and the quote you put in your post is mine.  I didn't say Satan was cast into the lake of fire twice.  Revelation says an angel comes down with a key to the bottomless pit and locks Satan away for a thousand years.  This gives him plenty of time to sit alone and think about what he has done in the world all that time.  But the moment he is released he immediately proceeds to deceive the nations once again, and to lead a rebellion against God.

God then destroys them and throws Satan in FINALITY into the Lake of Fire to be "tormented forever and ever".  The Bible couldn't be clearer.

Offline rezar

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 22:31:07 »
Rev.1:1 says that the "millennium" & all that's in the book, like Satan being thrown into the lake of fire, was to "happen shortly" (after John wrote it).

Therefore, according to scripture, Satan has been destroyed forever- (& can only be mimicked)

Unlike humans, he is tormented forever (his authority).

Offline Jaime

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #27 on: Wed Mar 31, 2010 - 22:38:49 »
I'm leaning toward the view that Satan is still alive and well today, though he knows his time is short. As it has been since the Garden.
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 08:40:25 by Jaime »

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #28 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 08:18:00 »
Thanks bro larry...I hate to be so blunt as to appear to be rude and judgmental but this guy has shown himself to be somewhere beyond scripture, somewhere far beyond the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
His self righteous indignation and intellectual snobbishness towards we who adhere to scripture is an indication of where he is coming from.
He wants to extend the definition of eternal fire to mean the purification of Satan and fallen Angels for the sake of being able to say that men who suffer the same fate as they will also be purified!

But you know and I know...none of that is in the bible! It takes a really bright guy with a whole lot of IQ and a whole lot of time on his hands to come up with something as far out as that!

It just goes to show, just as the problems in the world are compounded and made worse by foolish men with foolish solutions devoid of godly wisdom and understanding  ::juggle::
...just about anything can be reasoned and made to appear logical while godly wisdom and understanding is simply reasoned away and the wisdom of men and human intellect go unchecked and are exalted to the high places where they should not...

....like the Asherah poles in the OT

Bro Sherman please take note.....we ain't bowing! ::frown::

Gospel, it's not a matter of you "appearing to be rude and judgmental", your comments are rude and judgmental.  Doesn't scripture say something about how "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." 

Concerning my IQ level, it's not unusually high, but I do enjoy studying scripture and have done so since childhood.  Concerning you "bowing" to me in any way, I haven't asked you nor want you to do so.  I hope you'll stand by your convictions as I do.  I've simply shared what I've come to believe and why I've come to believe it.  You're welcome to disregard what the words in the original languages of scripture actually mean if you wish, but I find such information very compelling.  You're welcome to disregard the fact that Gehenna was a Jewish rabbinical metaphor of Remedial Punishment in the after-life, but I find this information compelling.  You're welcome to disregard all information that doesn't fit into your systematic theology, but as for me this verifiable information has compelled me to believe differently than what I and you have traditionally been taught.

But it seems as if our conversation has degraded from discussing facts and scripture to mud slingin which doesn't do anyone any good.  If you want to respectfully discuss specific passages of scripture, I'll gladly correspond with you; but I don't want to just argue much less uselessly just denounce you.

Blessings,
Sherman

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #29 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 08:21:50 »
That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.
Actually, it tosses el diablo into the old absu (the abyss, the bottomless pit) for 1K years, and the lake del fuego later. 

They aren't the same place.  A quick look at Jude validates the pit as a separate place.  ::tippinghat::

Thanks, I was just trying to understand what Larry (or fish, I don't remember) wrote.

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #30 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 09:01:03 »

I say no what say you?  ::reading::


 From law: Satan is a done deal! (Mat.25:41)  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #31 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 09:11:25 »
Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion!

Oh my, would God Who is love allow any to ever suffer huh? A rabid dog? Maybe with such compassion He allowed His Son Jesus off from paying the full penalty for us with just a slap on the hand. Such thinking is what brings about false religion. 

Actually, the sacrifice of Christ reveals God's love and compassion for humanity more than anything else.  Is there any greater love than to give one's life for someone else!  What is it scripture says, "Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!" (Rom. 5:18 The Message).  The essence of the Gospel is that Jesus did pay the full penalty of sin for us, for all of humanity.  He did this so that we might have Life, instead of death/annihilation.  This is God's love for us.  

Scripture says that the wages of sin is "death".  God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely "die".  Endless torture is not the penalty in scripture.

Quote
This is nothing but another outrageous attempt to spread an ungodly doctrine of Universalism in my opinion. God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me. Do you understand the following verse in Revelation 20:10?  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Are you calling God a liar?

My thoughts.

Of course, you're welcome to denounce Universalism as ungodly if you wish, but scripture repeatedly affirms in the NT especially that God truly does save and is the Savior of all humanity, especially we who believe. (1 Tim. 4:10).  Jesus came to seek and to save the lost, not to condemn us.  And in the end God does reconcile all things to himself.  

Concerning my understanding of Rev. 20:10, if you'll note,   It does not say "torture" but says "torment".  "Torment" is related to the purification of metals.  Also note that the word "aion" repeated doubly in the phrase "αιωνας των αιωνων" interpreted would be better interpreted "unto the ages of ages" signifying unto that which is beyond site and even beyond understanding.  And of course, metaphorical literature like Revelatation is best interpreted metaphorically and not literally.  Taking these things into consideration, as well as the other things I mentioned in my previous post concerning the use of Brimstone in that day, it speaks of Remedial Punishment, but does not speak of "endless conscious torture".

And btw, I too believe scripture to be the inspired word of God; what God says, I believe.  I also believe it is our responsibility to study scripture so as to understand it correctly.  And to me, this means to study it as much as I can taking into consideration is context, it's historical, cultural, literary, and authorial context.  And what I've found is that much of what I've been taught from childhood simply does not line up with what scripture says in when understood in context.  Much of what I've been taught concerning scripture is based on proof-texting - taking scripture out of context and interpreting them to mean something the author never intended, most often making them say more than what was intended.

Concerning the topic at hand, "Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?",  all things are possible with God!  What does scripture say?  It actually says very little concerning their outcome; scripture is predominantly about God redeeming and reconciling humanity to Himself.  Satan is pictured as our adversary, sent by God to test and prove us.   Even Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested by Satan.  He is a created being, not even close to being at the same level with God.  In Job, Satan is given authority by God to test Job - ultimately for Job's good though the process was terrible.  

Frankly, I've always just accepted the traditional evangelical doctrine and am only now starting to study indepth what scripture says concerning Satan and the Fallen Angels.  But I've already uncovered enough so that if pressed to put what I believe in a word or two (yes or no), it seems to me that scripture indicates that in the end, even Satan and the fallen angels are reconciled to God, that Jesus does triumph and reigns until every principality and power is conquered by Him.  Love never fails!  

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #32 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 12:33:17 »
Quote
Gospel, it's not a matter of you "appearing to be rude and judgmental", your comments are rude and judgmental.  Doesn't scripture say something about how "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

If you perceive my comments as rude and judgmental than so be it, but there is a point in truth where a person has to be straight forward and lay it on the line. Out of the abundance of my heart I am confident and certain that what you are touting is something that is not Christian Doctrine but of another doctrine. Universal Christianity is not Christianity it is a cult. Its alright if that's what you want to believe, everyone is entitled to believe what they want but when you are in a Christian forum proposing non Christian doctrine be prepared for straight forward comments that you may perceive as rude if not from me then from some of the other members. Besides.....hellfire and eternal separation from God are offensive to those who deny the Truth
 
Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #33 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 15:25:38 »
Gospel,

Frankly, I'm not offended at your statements.  It takes much more than someone calling me names to offend me.  There is a vast difference between stating that you believe a doctrine is errant and calling a person self-righteous and intellectually snobbish.  Such negative comments are statments concerning a person's character that you simply are not qualified to judge.  It seems though that you do find me to be knowledgable, but it also seems you disdain knowledge if it disagrees with your traditions.  And how can intelligence be a fault?  I believe that we are to worship God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength.  One cannot study scripture too much! 

I find that people who resort to personal attacks do so because the case in support of their beliefs is weak in either facts or presentation.  If one's facts are solid and verifiable, and one's presentation make's sense then he or she doesn't need to resort to personal attacks.  Whether your judgment of me being "self-righteous and intellectually snobbish" is correct or not, I'll let the Lord judge. 

Concerning the traditional doctrine of hell in some way offending me, such is an inaccurate assesment on your part.  I actually started a personal study less than a year ago simply to reaffirm my belief in and acceptance of the traditional doctrine.  I had no desire, much less a plan, to change my beliefs.  But when I approach a topic I do my best to let the evidence speak for itself and set aside my preconcieved beliefs.  Having studied this for several months, I've found the evidence to be compelling that the traditional doctrine of Hell is completely wrong, that the doctrine of Hell is not scriptural, that the word Hell should not even be in English translations of scripture; and it is a misrepresentation of the character of God's love and justice. 

Concerning the end of Satan and the fallen angels, as noted before, scripture says very little concerning such.  They are held in Tartaroo in judgment (2 Pet.2.4), but even "judgment" here is krisis (remedial judgment) not timoria (vindictive judgment).  And of course, as previously shared, I believe Revelation's lake of fire and brimstone metaphor is best understood itself as Remedial punishment, based upon the metaphorical use of fire elsewhere in Revelation and other scriptures and the then common usage of brimstone amoung Greeks and Romans for spiritual purification and medicinal healing.  But, if I misunderstand these and someone or God shows me a different understanding based on evidence and not just tradition or assumptions then I'll gladly change my beliefs.  But what you've presented, and your presentation, has only served to strengthen me in my beliefs.  As to what what God thinks of our discussion, well, I don't presume to speak for Him.

And if you'll notice, I often say "I believe" instead of just affirming that something is true or false.  The reason I do this is because I recognize that I could be wrong and am not so prideful as to equate what I believe with Truth, though I believe it to be true.  I've been wrong plenty of times before and am likely now wrong in some of my beliefs, but I just don't know it yet. 

Concerning Universalism, the doctrine that God actually saves all of humanity, I've found the scriptural evidence for such to be so compelling that I've come to believe it.  As Paul says in 1 Tim. 4:10, God truly is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe.  But this is being discussed on another thread.

Concerning you finding your posts "successfully" showing that what I believe is not scriptural, well, I'm glad you think so highly of them.  I have not found them to be so.  Concerning my posts, they've only shared what I believe and why I believe it.  I don't know that they "show" or prove anything, except this is what I believe and why I believe it.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #34 on: Thu Apr 01, 2010 - 16:06:44 »
Quote
Concerning Universalism, the doctrine that God actually saves all of humanity, I've found the scriptural evidence for such to be so compelling that I've come to believe it.  As Paul says in 1 Tim. 4:10, God truly is the savior of all humanity, especially we who believe.  But this is being discussed on another thread.

Concerning you finding your posts "successfully" showing that what I believe is not scriptural, well, I'm glad you think so highly of them.  I have not found them to be so.  Concerning my posts, they've only shared what I believe and why I believe it.  I don't know that they "show" or prove anything, except this is what I believe and why I believe it

Concerning your compelling scriptural evidence... its not the scripture but rather your "interpretation" of the scriptures which is compelling enough, so much so... to be that of another Faith and not the Gospel of Christ.

I find that wiccans believe very closely to what you believe...except they don't believe in Jesus. Funny though despite that huge difference, they still end up at the very exact same point as you....with the entire human race in paradise singing Kumbaya my Lord even those who despised and never believed in the Lord Jesus!

Again concerning your beliefs, in all fairness you do have a leg to stand on in making a case for the reconciliation of man, that can be discussed or argued as we have based upon our individual interpretation of various verses

BUT

....You have nothing to stand on when you start asserting Satan and his fallen angels will be reconciled to God and restored back to their original positions...that my friend puts you way beyond the pale and beyond the Gospel of Christ.

And is the sole reason for the tone of my responses to your assertions, after all this is a Christian forum, hence when someone begins posting and asserting the doctrines of the JW's, Mormon's, Moonies or Universal Christianity....it will definitely evoke a strong response if not from me...from someone
 
In this case it was me  ::tippinghat::

 

     
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