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Author Topic: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?  (Read 20368 times)

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Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2010, 11:59:36 AM »
Quote
For the third or fourth time recently on this forum (though worded differently each time and on different threads):

Redeem = to purchase back.  To my knowledge, scripture does not indicate that Satan and the Fallen Angels are "redeemed".  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that even Satan and the Fallen Angels are reconciled to God, though it be through fire.  Of course, scripture is predominantly about God reconciling, redeeming all of humanity to Himself; and little is spoken of the ultimate end of Satan and the fallen angels.

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion!

Sherman I know the actual meaning of Redemption

Therefore your astute defining of Redemption aside..... in not quite so much multitudinously superfluity of words can you please tell us yes or no

Will Satan and Fallen Angels be reconciled to God or will they experience eternal damnation and the hell fire of everlasting torment

Yes or No? Yea or Nay? Which do you believe? ::shrug::



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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2010, 11:59:36 AM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2010, 12:14:25 PM »
What I want to know is
Do you believe Satan and Fallen Angels can be redeemed? ::shrug::

For the third or fourth time recently on this forum (though worded differently each time and on different threads):

Redeem = to purchase back.  To my knowledge, scripture does not indicate that Satan and the Fallen Angels are "redeemed".  However, there is significant scriptural evidence that even Satan and the Fallen Angels are reconciled to God, though it be through fire.  Of course, scripture is predominantly about God reconciling, redeeming all of humanity to Himself; and little is spoken of the ultimate end of Satan and the fallen angels. 

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion! 

Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Go Fish!!!

And hence the fatal flaw in Sherman's definition of purification through hell fire...sounds good, intellectually fascinating.
Titillating and comforting to itching ears but not what the bible is trying to get across.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matthew 25:41

"Some" people, those who are on Jesus left, the side of His disfavor, not under His Grace specifically those who are accursed by God.... will go to the place prepared for the devil and his angels!

According to the bible, the only thing pure about that place is it will be a place of pure torment and pure hell in the descriptive sense  ::reading::   

I think if God calls a person accursed they are indeed accursed.

Unbelievers need to know that!
Otherwise, Sherman with respect to you as a person and please forgive me if you are offended by this but unbelievers are being done a dis-service when you are feeding them a bunch of mealy mouth wishy washy un-scriptural nonsensical ideas.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...you need to line up the whole counsel of God, line upon line and start eating of the Tree of Life and toss that rotten apple aside!

btw.... I do know it wasn't really an apple  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2010, 12:14:25 PM »

larry2

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2010, 01:23:02 PM »

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion! 


Oh my, would God Who is love allow any to ever suffer huh? A rabid dog? Maybe with such compassion He allowed His Son Jesus off from paying the full penalty for us with just a slap on the hand. Such thinking is what brings about false religion. 

This is nothing but another outrageous attempt to spread an ungodly doctrine of Universalism in my opinion. God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me. Do you understand the following verse in Revelation 20:10?  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Are you calling God a liar?

My thoughts.

 

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2010, 02:53:59 PM »

Even most humans have enough compassion to put a deranged rabid dog out of his misery, if we are unable to heal them.  Why would anyone think that the God of creation would have any less compassion!


Oh my, would God Who is love allow any to ever suffer huh? A rabid dog? Maybe with such compassion He allowed His Son Jesus off from paying the full penalty for us with just a slap on the hand. Such thinking is what brings about false religion.  

This is nothing but another outrageous attempt to spread an ungodly doctrine of Universalism in my opinion. God said it, I believe it, and that's good enough for me. Do you understand the following verse in Revelation 20:10?  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Are you calling God a liar?

My thoughts.

  

 ::amen!::

Thanks bro larry...I hate to be so blunt as to appear to be rude and judgmental but this guy has shown himself to be somewhere beyond scripture, somewhere far beyond the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
His self righteous indignation and intellectual snobbishness towards we who adhere to scripture is an indication of where he is coming from.
He wants to extend the definition of eternal fire to mean the purification of Satan and fallen Angels for the sake of being able to say that men who suffer the same fate as they will also be purified!

But you know and I know...none of that is in the bible! It takes a really bright guy with a whole lot of IQ and a whole lot of time on his hands to come up with something as far out as that!

It just goes to show, just as the problems in the world are compounded and made worse by foolish men with foolish solutions devoid of godly wisdom and understanding  ::juggle::
...just about anything can be reasoned and made to appear logical while godly wisdom and understanding is simply reasoned away and the wisdom of men and human intellect go unchecked and are exalted to the high places where they should not...

....like the Asherah poles in the OT

Bro Sherman please take note.....we ain't bowing! ::frown::

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2010, 02:53:59 PM »

larry2

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 03:09:43 PM »

Amen Brother gospel. So says my Lord in Isaiah 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Attempting to restrict our infinite God to man's finite thinking is why doctrines like that arise because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar. 

 

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 03:09:43 PM »



Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2010, 04:01:00 PM »
Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Hi Fish,

As you likely know, Revelation is interpreted 4 different ways in the church - preterist, historical, metaphorical, and futuristic.  And even if one does interpret it futuristically, there are several different ways it is interpreted futuristically.  Thus when it comes to doctrine, I tend to rely more upon doctrinally oriented books like the Epistles and the Gospels.  Prophetic literature by it's very nature is meant more to inspire than it is to instruct.

That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically.  
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:23:03 AM by Sherman Nobles »

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2010, 04:01:00 PM »
I think God can do anything.

Just because He said He wasn't going to do something, doesn't mean He can't.  It just means He won't.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2010, 04:09:11 PM »
Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Hi Larry,

As you likely know, Revelation is interpreted 4 different ways in the church - preterist, historical, metaphorical, and futuristic.  And even if one does interpret it futuristically, there are several different ways it is interpreted futuristically.  Thus when it comes to doctrine, I tend to rely more upon doctrinally oriented books like the Epistles and the Gospels.  Prophetic literature by it's very nature is meant more to inspire than it is to instruct.

That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically. 

Sherman you're really deep!

Personally I'm thankful that neither Jesus or His disciples were as intelligent as you for if they were we'd all be practicing Gnostics!  ::doh::

Satan and his angels are crispy critters...trust me, no better yet trust the Word!

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2010, 04:18:57 PM »
That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.
Actually, it tosses el diablo into the old absu (the abyss, the bottomless pit) for 1K years, and the lake del fuego later. 

They aren't the same place.  A quick look at Jude validates the pit as a separate place.  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2010, 04:48:09 PM »

Sherman Nobels - That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

larry2 -No sir, Satan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, then released for a time and he gathers the nations to compass the camp of the saints, and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Notice that in Revelation 17:8. "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition." Now this is a reference to the antichrist, but it shows a difference in the bottomless pit and perdition.
 
Sherman Nobels - Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

larry2 - You can attempt to throw any spin you want to at it, but the fact remains that Satan is to be tormented in the lake of fire forever; that is God's word. Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Torment forever is not a metaphor.
 
Sherman Nobels - When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically.

larry2 - Maybe you should just quit attempting to make scripture fit your theology, and instead make your theology fit scripture.

My thoughts.

Offline fish153

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2010, 05:58:04 PM »
Sherman----

I have to point out that in the book of Revelation, after the Ant-Christ and the False Prophet are "thrown alive" into the Lake of Fire, it says Satan is locked up for a thousand years (during the full Millenium period).  Then, it says he is released after the thousand years, and what does he immediately do?    He has had a thousand years to think about what He has done on the earth for hundreds and hundreds of years---does he repent?  No---he immediatley goes forth to "deceive the nations".  They come to make war on the holy city and fire comes down to destroy everyone, and then it says that Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire "where the Beast and the False Prophet are" and that he is "tormented forever and ever".

What I am trying to say is that God PROVES that the devil is entirely un-redeemable, and completely and totally depraved and evil.  There is absolutely no verse in Revelation or elsewhere that gives us any idea that Satan will finally be "redeemed" or "reconciled" to God.  The opposite is actually true-----we are shown clearly that Satan will be judged and thrown into a Lake of Fire for ETERNITY.

Hi Larry,

As you likely know, Revelation is interpreted 4 different ways in the church - preterist, historical, metaphorical, and futuristic.  And even if one does interpret it futuristically, there are several different ways it is interpreted futuristically.  Thus when it comes to doctrine, I tend to rely more upon doctrinally oriented books like the Epistles and the Gospels.  Prophetic literature by it's very nature is meant more to inspire than it is to instruct.

That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.  If you will, please note the verses that indicate such; I don't recall such off hand.

Also, as noted in other threads on Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone is likely a metaphor of remedial punishment.  Note that not only is fire said to come from the altar (Rev.8.5), it is related to purification (Rev.3.18), consumption (Rev.18.8) and even the eyes of the Lord (Rev.1.14, 2.18).  Furthermore, brimstone in the Greek is "theon" meaning "divine fire" (note "theo" means God), was used in Greek and Roman pagan worship and burnt as incense for spiritual purification.  It was also burnt medicinally for healing.  It was also used in Gehenna as a sourse of fuel to keep the fires burning; and Gehenna was a Jewish metaphor most closely related to the concept of Purgatory.  And of course, in Rev.14:10 the Lake of fire is said to be in the very presence of the Lamb (revelation of the atonement of humanity) and the angels (revelation of the benevolent provision of God for all humanity).

When I consider these things, the metaphor of the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, to me, indicates a place/event of Remedial Punishment.  And of course, even the word Torment itself is related to the testing of metals in the purification process.  I believe this is the intended meaning whether one interprets Revelation historically, preteristically, metaphorically, or futuristically.  

Sherman---

I'm not Larry, It's fish and the quote you put in your post is mine.  I didn't say Satan was cast into the lake of fire twice.  Revelation says an angel comes down with a key to the bottomless pit and locks Satan away for a thousand years.  This gives him plenty of time to sit alone and think about what he has done in the world all that time.  But the moment he is released he immediately proceeds to deceive the nations once again, and to lead a rebellion against God.

God then destroys them and throws Satan in FINALITY into the Lake of Fire to be "tormented forever and ever".  The Bible couldn't be clearer.

Offline rezar

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2010, 09:31:07 PM »
Rev.1:1 says that the "millennium" & all that's in the book, like Satan being thrown into the lake of fire, was to "happen shortly" (after John wrote it).

Therefore, according to scripture, Satan has been destroyed forever- (& can only be mimicked)

Unlike humans, he is tormented forever (his authority).

Offline Jaime

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2010, 09:38:49 PM »
I'm leaning toward the view that Satan is still alive and well today, though he knows his time is short. As it has been since the Garden.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:40:25 AM by Jaime »

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2010, 07:18:00 AM »
Thanks bro larry...I hate to be so blunt as to appear to be rude and judgmental but this guy has shown himself to be somewhere beyond scripture, somewhere far beyond the Gospel of Christ Jesus.
His self righteous indignation and intellectual snobbishness towards we who adhere to scripture is an indication of where he is coming from.
He wants to extend the definition of eternal fire to mean the purification of Satan and fallen Angels for the sake of being able to say that men who suffer the same fate as they will also be purified!

But you know and I know...none of that is in the bible! It takes a really bright guy with a whole lot of IQ and a whole lot of time on his hands to come up with something as far out as that!

It just goes to show, just as the problems in the world are compounded and made worse by foolish men with foolish solutions devoid of godly wisdom and understanding  ::juggle::
...just about anything can be reasoned and made to appear logical while godly wisdom and understanding is simply reasoned away and the wisdom of men and human intellect go unchecked and are exalted to the high places where they should not...

....like the Asherah poles in the OT

Bro Sherman please take note.....we ain't bowing! ::frown::

Gospel, it's not a matter of you "appearing to be rude and judgmental", your comments are rude and judgmental.  Doesn't scripture say something about how "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." 

Concerning my IQ level, it's not unusually high, but I do enjoy studying scripture and have done so since childhood.  Concerning you "bowing" to me in any way, I haven't asked you nor want you to do so.  I hope you'll stand by your convictions as I do.  I've simply shared what I've come to believe and why I've come to believe it.  You're welcome to disregard what the words in the original languages of scripture actually mean if you wish, but I find such information very compelling.  You're welcome to disregard the fact that Gehenna was a Jewish rabbinical metaphor of Remedial Punishment in the after-life, but I find this information compelling.  You're welcome to disregard all information that doesn't fit into your systematic theology, but as for me this verifiable information has compelled me to believe differently than what I and you have traditionally been taught.

But it seems as if our conversation has degraded from discussing facts and scripture to mud slingin which doesn't do anyone any good.  If you want to respectfully discuss specific passages of scripture, I'll gladly correspond with you; but I don't want to just argue much less uselessly just denounce you.

Blessings,
Sherman

Offline Sherman Nobles

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Re: Can Satan and Fallen Angels be Redeemed?
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2010, 07:21:50 AM »
That being noted, if I understand you correctly, Satan is thrown in the Lake of Fire for an age and then released for 1000 years and then thrown once again into the lake of fire.
Actually, it tosses el diablo into the old absu (the abyss, the bottomless pit) for 1K years, and the lake del fuego later. 

They aren't the same place.  A quick look at Jude validates the pit as a separate place.  ::tippinghat::

Thanks, I was just trying to understand what Larry (or fish, I don't remember) wrote.