"disfellowshiping" family?

[Lee Freeman]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

[Livelysword]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

Lively:  If the doctrines of Christ were unimportant... I doubt he would have given them to us...  but I am grateful that you can see we can not separate Christ from his doctrine...  I am willing to make small headway...

God bless...

Lively

[Quenee]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

Lively:  If the doctrines of Christ were unimportant... I doubt he would have given them to us...  but I am grateful that you can see we can not separate Christ from his doctrine...  I am willing to make small headway...

God bless...

Lively

One of the great deceptions of the age in which we live has to do with separating Christ from His doctrine. Tis good to remember that His grace teaches...emphasis, His grace teaches!! And what does it teach..."to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds"! His grace teaches His saints to serve Him!!Titus 2...There are always going to be folks that point towards His saints and proclaim them to have done too much of this and too little of that, to have been to focused on this and not focused enough on that, too soft on this and too hard on that, when all along His people are busy serving Him while others are busy pointing fingers to serve themselves.

[HRoberson]

It would be the revelation of God.

Lively:  The revelation is the complete NT of Jesus Christ... which includes all doctrines he taught...

....but not necessarily all the doctrines we deduce.

[Livelysword]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

Lively:  If the doctrines of Christ were unimportant... I doubt he would have given them to us...  but I am grateful that you can see we can not separate Christ from his doctrine...  I am willing to make small headway...

God bless...

Lively

One of the great deceptions of the age in which we live has to do with separating Christ from His doctrine. Tis good to remember that His grace teaches...emphasis, His grace teaches!! And what does it teach..."to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds"! His grace teaches His saints to serve Him!!Titus 2...There are always going to be folks that point towards His saints and proclaim them to have done too much of this and too little of that, to have been to focused on this and not focused enough on that, too soft on this and too hard on that, when all along His people are busy serving Him while others are busy pointing fingers to serve themselves.

Lively:  Amen Quenee...

[Quenee]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

Lively:  If the doctrines of Christ were unimportant... I doubt he would have given them to us...  but I am grateful that you can see we can not separate Christ from his doctrine...  I am willing to make small headway...

God bless...

Lively

One of the great deceptions of the age in which we live has to do with separating Christ from His doctrine. Tis good to remember that His grace teaches...emphasis, His grace teaches!! And what does it teach..."to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds"! His grace teaches His saints to serve Him!!Titus 2...There are always going to be folks that point towards His saints and proclaim them to have done too much of this and too little of that, to have been to focused on this and not focused enough on that, too soft on this and too hard on that, when all along His people are busy serving Him while others are busy pointing fingers to serve themselves.

Lively:  Amen Quenee...

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems,"...it was very important to Him that His saints at Corinth be taught how He would have them 'handle disciplinary problems', so such thinking raises the question who came up with this idea of man grading importance of His revelation?! When the people at Corinth needed to hear of salvation from their sins it was important, and after becoming saints when they needed to hear of how His saints are to 'handle disciplinary problems' it was important! Man taking it upon himself to decide what of His revelation is more important than another what of His revelation has its roots in Pharisee thought, and even farther back in OT writings. To place oneself in such a position of heiarchy and then use one's judgement of "importance" to find fault in others,...well it's the very opposite of what God's grace teaches.

[marc]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

Lively:  If the doctrines of Christ were unimportant... I doubt he would have given them to us...  but I am grateful that you can see we can not separate Christ from his doctrine...  I am willing to make small headway...

God bless...

Lively

One of the great deceptions of the age in which we live has to do with separating Christ from His doctrine. Tis good to remember that His grace teaches...emphasis, His grace teaches!! And what does it teach..."to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds"! His grace teaches His saints to serve Him!!Titus 2...There are always going to be folks that point towards His saints and proclaim them to have done too much of this and too little of that, to have been to focused on this and not focused enough on that, too soft on this and too hard on that, when all along His people are busy serving Him while others are busy pointing fingers to serve themselves.

Lively:  Amen Quenee...

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems" 

Yeah.  That Paul was a dangerous heretic.

[DCR]

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than...

But, the Bible says that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ were of "first importance"...

1 Corinthians 15
 ³For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

This... toward the end of the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, after Paul had discussed so many different issues, he said of all the things he had "delivered" or taught to the church... the death, burial, and resurrection were of first importance.

[Livelysword]

You are right that Jesus cannot be separated from his doctrine however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems, or his teaching about the Sabbath day being made for man.

In Churches of Christ for most of the 20th century we for all practical purposes did drive a wedge between Jesus and his teaching, in that his doctrine about baptism, about mariage and divorce, etc., received much more attention than his teaching on how he was/is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah; and actually we focused even more on Paul, and his teaching about the church than we did the doctrines of Jesus. We placed everything Paul said on the same level with everything Jesus said. Now in one sense that's not so bad, because Paul spoke under the authority of Christ, so in a sense his teaching about the cross is on a level with Jesus' teaching on the cross however I'm not sure Paul himself would've placed himself on that level because Jesus was God incarnate and Paul was merely his apostle, or messenger. Paul said that he counted everything in his life as dung compared to the gospel of Christ. For too long we preached a gospel of Paul which focused on the organization of the church, the role of elders, how many cups could be used, whether the church could support orphans' homes from the church treasury, whether the music could be instrumental or not, etc., but which only peripherally made reference to Jesus and the cross, which was putting the cart before the horse. The church only derives meaning from Christ and his sacrifice.

Pax.

Lively:  If the doctrines of Christ were unimportant... I doubt he would have given them to us...  but I am grateful that you can see we can not separate Christ from his doctrine...  I am willing to make small headway...

God bless...

Lively

One of the great deceptions of the age in which we live has to do with separating Christ from His doctrine. Tis good to remember that His grace teaches...emphasis, His grace teaches!! And what does it teach..."to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope, and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds"! His grace teaches His saints to serve Him!!Titus 2...There are always going to be folks that point towards His saints and proclaim them to have done too much of this and too little of that, to have been to focused on this and not focused enough on that, too soft on this and too hard on that, when all along His people are busy serving Him while others are busy pointing fingers to serve themselves.

Lively:  Amen Quenee...

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than his teaching on, say, how the church should handle disciplinary problems,"...it was very important to Him that His saints at Corinth be taught how He would have them 'handle disciplinary problems', so such thinking raises the question who came up with this idea of man grading importance of His revelation?! When the people at Corinth needed to hear of salvation from their sins it was important, and after becoming saints when they needed to hear of how His saints are to 'handle disciplinary problems' it was important! Man taking it upon himself to decide what of His revelation is more important than another what of His revelation has its roots in Pharisee thought, and even farther back in OT writings. To place oneself in such a position of heiarchy and then use one's judgement of "importance" to find fault in others,...well it's the very opposite of what God's grace teaches.

Lively:  Keep teaching Quenee...

[Livelysword]

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than...

But, the Bible says that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ were of "first importance"...

1 Corinthians 15
 ³For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

This... toward the end of the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, after Paul had discussed so many different issues, he said of all the things he had "delivered" or taught to the church... the death, burial, and resurrection were of first importance.

Lively:  Well taught DCR... I think both you and Quenee stated the same thing...

[DCR]

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than...

But, the Bible says that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ were of "first importance"...

1 Corinthians 15
 ³For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

This... toward the end of the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, after Paul had discussed so many different issues, he said of all the things he had "delivered" or taught to the church... the death, burial, and resurrection were of first importance.

Lively:  Well taught DCR... I think both you and Quenee stated the same thing...

I don't think so, at least if I understand what Quenee said.  She seems to criticize the idea that the doctrine of the death, burial, and resurrection is more important than other doctrine.  What I did was quote Paul who wrote that the teaching of the death, burial, and resurrection were of first importance.  That goes against what Quenee said.

[Arkstfan]

Lively:  Well taught DCR... I think both you and Quenee stated the same thing...

 

No. Quenee said death, burial, and resurrection are no more important as doctrine than being orderly and decent or everyone sharing a psalm or word of instruction.

DCR pointed out that Paul stated death, burial, resurrection are of greater importance.

You've basically stated that 2+2=3

[Nevertheless]

It's that new math.

[James.]

It's somethin'. 

[Livelysword]

Thanks Lively, it's a dangerous position one takes when deciding "however some of his doctrine is more important than others. For example, his teaching that whoever believes in his death, burial and resurrection will be saved is more important than...

But, the Bible says that the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ were of "first importance"...

1 Corinthians 15
 ³For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

This... toward the end of the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, after Paul had discussed so many different issues, he said of all the things he had "delivered" or taught to the church... the death, burial, and resurrection were of first importance.

Lively:  Well taught DCR... I think both you and Quenee stated the same thing...

I don't think so, at least if I understand what Quenee said.  She seems to criticize the idea that the doctrine of the death, burial, and resurrection is more important than other doctrine.  What I did was quote Paul who wrote that the teaching of the death, burial, and resurrection were of first importance.  That goes against what Quenee said.

Lively:  If I misunderstood Quenee... then I would agree with you DNR...


1Co 15:3  For1063 I delivered3860 unto you5213 first of all1722, 4413 that which3739 I also2532 received,3880 how that3754 Christ5547 died599 for5228 our2257 sins266 according2596 to the3588 Scriptures;1124


G4413
πρῶτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.


Yet I think the point Quenee was trying to make is many have viewed certain doctrine more important then other doctrine and in doing so have tried to diminish the importance of some doctrine...  however God does have some things he wishes to get across to us up front... so we can go on to perfection... that there are some doctrines which need to be taught, understood and obeyed right up front...


Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3  And this will we do, if God permit.


Included from 1Cor 15, the death burial and resurrection, is the doctrine of baptism for the remission of sins in which one is united with Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection...  so when we look at the list above here in Heb 6... these are the things of first or most importance to come to understand the truth of... 


Doctrine of church discipline is not of the first principles...  it is something God views as not foundational... but very necessary and should not be diminished in any way shape or form... as one may think because its not of the first principles, it is then something we do not need to heed...  I guarantee you that its of grave importance... when God turns one over unto Satan...